Path Numbers??? How competitive is it?

[suckstobeme]

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Hey Guys-
Anybody know what PDs look at when evaluating prospective residents? I mean, duh, scores and grades and stuff. But how much do you think Step 1 matters or grades, or just showing an interest in Path. People tell me Path isn't all that competitive, but that can't be right. Or is it? I mean what a sweet life-style, pay is good, and I bet it feels good to be the "expert" that all the other Docs go to, among all the other cool stuff Path guys get. PLus all the M4s I've met that want to go into Path are super-geniuses that whip out weird syndromes and stuff that even when you try to look it up you can't find. But then you see a bunch of Path Depts with a lot of FMGs and stuff. What's up with that? Maybe they're all the stud FMGs.
Anyways, I guess I'm a little self-concious about all this stuff cause I'm sorta a middle of the pack candidate: 215 on the boards and so-so grades. I was also wondering how much of getting a good path residency is doing away rotations and knowing the right people. I mean, I think I want to do path and I want to do one or two rotations in it, but I don't wanna spend all of M4 doing Path rotations, especially b/c if it's my last chance to see all the other specialties. I was looking at residency programs in the Midwest like Michigan, U of Chicago, Northwestern, UIC and I started wondering how tough is it to get in to those places (by the way, I don't think Mayo has a Path program. At least I couldn't find it on their website. Come on, it's freakin' Mayo!).
So please respond if you know anything about any of this stuff.

Thanks,
Suckstobeme

 

[deschutes]

Welcome, suckstobeyou!

Have you tried the excellent FAQs (3rd sticky thread)? It might answer some of the questions you've asked, and links to other threads with helpful responses from the past.

Mayo does have a pathology residency program - there is an old post in the Interviews 2003/2004 thread about them.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=81629&page=4&pp=20

As for competitiveness.... Path applicant numbers are up from last year, and from the year before. With the upswing, once we get past the general requirements, everything becomes relative to the applicant pool.

The programs you mention are probably a little harder to get into (*shakes fist at all the MD/PhD's* 😉 ) but then again I am (or will be) a Canadian grad so my perspective might be a little skewed.

Path FMGs are studly!

 

[yaah]

http://www.mayoclinic.org/labmed-pathology-rst/medprofessional.html

http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/lm-anatomicclin-rch.html

Try those links.

What Deschutes said is right - we have discussed this before, and I doubt anyone is going to be able to give you the exact info you are looking for, because none of us is on a residency program committee. You certainly don't have to be a "stud" to get into a good residency program. In general, it will help though to have something that distinguishes you. Whether this is a stellar academic record, high board score, lots of research/publiciations, interviewing well, great references, whatever.

Path is getting more competitive but it's still somewhat relative. There are a lot more good and solid american grad candidates than there have been in years past. 4-5 years ago if you were a US grad you could basically go wherever you wanted provided your application had no holes in it. Now, not so easy. A lot of really good candidates do go into path, so it can seem a bit more daunting than it actually is. The thing is there are lots of good path residency programs and the best candidates tend to get dispersed quite widely, so there are still lots of spots for "more average" candidates. You won't see a ton of FMGs at the top residency programs, but there will be some. A lot of the middle of the road, medium sized academic programs often have a lot of FMGs.

If there is a program you know you are interested in going to, it never hurts to do a 4th year rotation there. But you certainly don't have to. A lot of it truly is about showing the interest and enthusiasm.

 

[Pookies]

I am a similar canadate

214 & 225 with a large number of B grades. I have 9 interviews at solid programs, but I have not gotten replies from my "reach" programs Wash U. Stanford, Washington, Michigen, hopkins etc.

It is about what I expected.

 

[RyMcQ]

I was looking at residency programs in the Midwest like Michigan, U of Chicago, Northwestern, UIC

Don't forget Iowa. Excellent program.

 

[Mrbojangles]

I still think it's not too competitive yet. I'm a pretty average candidate myself but I got some interviews at some "big name" places, except UCSF and U Penn... patiently waiting . But every now and then on my interview trail I'd come accross people from schools who would have classes with double digit amount of students applying for path... like 10 from BU and 14 from UT Houston (which are big schools). But it's pretty shocking to me coming from a school that traditionally sends 0-2 people in pathology. But this year my school is sending 5 people.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I agree. There are probably 500-600 applicants this year. Not bad at all. Path hasn't gotten anywhere close to fields like Rads, Opthy, or Derm in terms of competitiveness.

 

[maminr]

"You won't see a ton of FMGs at the top residency programs, but there will be some. A lot of the middle of the road, medium sized academic programs often have a lot of FMGs".

If you guys dont mind may I ask whats with FMGs in a residency program that makes a program 'good' or 'bad'?? Is there a stigma attached to a program who hires FMGs?

 

[Mrbojangles]

"You won't see a ton of FMGs at the top residency programs, but there will be some. A lot of the middle of the road, medium sized academic programs often have a lot of FMGs".

If you guys dont mind may I ask whats with FMGs in a residency program that makes a program 'good' or 'bad'?? Is there a stigma attached to a program who hires FMGs?

I geuss most programs would prefer to recruit students who graduated from an American school over a foreign school for the purposes of "favoring your own", facility with the English language, and eliminating the red tape of visas and green cards. I geuss a program that has a large proportion of foreign residents correlate to the fact that they can't attract American graduates. But I mean the base of medicine here is the same as it is in say Lebanon. They're using Harrison's, Oski's, Rosai and Ackermans...

 

[sohsie]

I am in a very competitive program right now and the applicant pool has jumped enormously. Only 5 years ago, they would get around 40 applicants, half FMGs, and interview everyone. This year, they have ~250 applicants and are interviewing ~50-60, including many people with two digit 99 scores on their USMLE. I dont know if this trend will last or not, but path is definitely no longer the slam dunk it once was.

 

[Dep.Weigel]

Ok, the first time I read that last post it scared the crap out of me. The second time it did too, but then something hit me - couldn't the increase in numbers be a reflection more of the anxiety of applicants and the degree of perception that path is getting more competitive rather than that big of an increase in competition itself?? What I mean is, so path is getting at least somewhat more competitive. So instead of only applying to like 4 to 6 programs, now people are applying to 15, and they are doing more interviews as well. Not just the "weaker" candidates, but the good ones too. Hence there are more applications for each program, more high-scoring applicants spreading their love around and individual match lists are longer, however, this is grossly disproportionate to the actual increase in the total number of people applying and the level of competition. Programs may have a better pool of interested applicants to make their match lists from, but those match lists will be long, and they are still at the mercy of the applicants rankings as well.

Does that make sense?
😳

 

[yaah]

That perhaps makes sense. I am sure someone has the #s of average # programs/applicant. It is also true though that one should not assume all of these 250 applicants are stellar. And, that there are still lots of great programs out there.

 

[cytoborg]

Agreed. That's the beauty of online application. I would never have applied to 20 places if I had to fill out paper apps!

 

[Primate]

per my PD - apps are way up AND are of much higher quality this year. He seems to think that alot of the former derm and rads types are "discovering" path as a "lifestyle" specialty (sorry about the use of quotes twice in one sentence).

Bummer, but I'm just reporting here.

P

 

[yaah]

The thing is, people who talk about lifestyle should just pick the field they like, because every field of medicine is tough, with long hours (well, except maybe for derm! But you do have the prelim year).

I left home at 6:30 or so monday and tuesday last week, got home at 9pm on monday, 11:30 pm on tuesday. Wednesday was 7:30-7pm. Thursday was 7:30-5pm, but only because I didn't have any VA responsibilities. Friday I was done at 6pm.

And don't forget path requires more reading/study time than almost any other field of medicine.

Yes, I generally get my weekends and have no overnight call stuff this year (starts next year). But from what I remember about my IM months, I was often done by 5pm if not earlier most non-call days.

People who choose path for the lifestyle may be in for a bit of a rude awakening.

 

[garfield]

Seems also that much of the time on IM rotations was also about spinning one's wheels with the bureaucracy: doing paperwork, chasing down results, at the beck and call of everyone else. Oh yeah, that's why I didn't go into it. 😎

Our VA rotation has relatively long hours, too. And it's only AP.

 

[Smitty]

The thing is, people who talk about lifestyle should just pick the field they like, because every field of medicine is tough, with long hours

I agree. Path residency doesn't seem like a walk in the park to me at all.

I left home at 6:30 or so monday and tuesday last week, got home at 9pm on monday, 11:30 pm on tuesday. Wednesday was 7:30-7pm. Thursday was 7:30-5pm, but only because I didn't have any VA responsibilities. Friday I was done at 6pm.

Do you read when you get home that late? Or do you have chances to read during the working day? I'm assuming it depends on the rotation.

 

[yaah]

Do you read when you get home that late? Or do you have chances to read during the working day? I'm assuming it depends on the rotation.

It all depends - if I have a conference or something I need to study for then I read when I get home after the long days. Often though I don't do anything medical related when I get home.

During the day, it varies. Often I get some time to read something, but often not. You kind of have to motivate yourself. Just reading about random topics is tough - but if there is something specific to read about it is a lot easier. I always tell myself I am going to start reading more but it doesn't work well!

 

[sohsie]

Ok, the first time I read that last post it scared the crap out of me. The second time it did too, but then something hit me - couldn't the increase in numbers be a reflection more of the anxiety of applicants and the degree of perception that path is getting more competitive rather than that big of an increase in competition itself?? What I mean is, so path is getting at least somewhat more competitive. So instead of only applying to like 4 to 6 programs, now people are applying to 15, and they are doing more interviews as well. Not just the "weaker" candidates, but the good ones too. Hence there are more applications for each program, more high-scoring applicants spreading their love around and individual match lists are longer, however, this is grossly disproportionate to the actual increase in the total number of people applying and the level of competition. Programs may have a better pool of interested applicants to make their match lists from, but those match lists will be long, and they are still at the mercy of the applicants rankings as well.

Does that make sense?
😳

Sorry for scaring you. It is certainly true that what you say is likely a factor. However, it is also definitely true that the numebr of American grads going into path has exploded. My residency director said that he has ~20 applicants that 5 years ago, he would have tried to sign outside the match they are so good (I wont go into the legality of that). On paper, at least. There are definitely a lot of duds in that 250, but there are a lot of strong applicants. I think the end all for this is that while in the past, if you were a strong American grad applicant, you could go to whatever program you wanted, now you can get into a good program, you just may not get your first choice.

As to my uninformed opinion as to why people are going into path, I think it is a combination of decreasing salaries of other specialties (surgery, IM, etc.)without a concurrent decrease in work hours and the popularity of CSI giving people the path idea as an alternative. I agree with the above posters that you should do what you like and worry about lifestyle second. If you dont love path and you just want to make money with an easy lifestyle, you'll be miserable.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[yaah]

Lousy CSI.

 

[cytoborg]

Many people who hear I'm going into path say, "Oh, that will be a great lifestyle, no intern year!" Granted, yes I'd rather do just about anything, including eat hot steaming t*rds, than do a traditional "intern year" in clinical medicine. But there is this misperception that path residency is so easy. 1st year path residents at my institution are running into the 80 hr rule and finding themselves either getting scolded or lying on their timesheets. And this is not a program known for being malignant. It's not - it's just hard work. So I have no delusions about residency being easy.

 

[Matte Kudesai]

Many people who hear I'm going into path say, "Oh, that will be a great lifestyle, no intern year!" Granted, yes I'd rather do just about anything, including eat hot steaming t*rds, than do a traditional "intern year" in clinical medicine. But there is this misperception that path residency is so easy. 1st year path residents at my institution are running into the 80 hr rule and finding themselves either getting scolded or lying on their timesheets. And this is not a program known for being malignant. It's not - it's just hard work. So I have no delusions about residency being easy.

You are absolutely right....

We sleep in our own beds but have a ton of responsibility and still have to prepare for sign out and read, read, read as well as continue to look at slides.
Its an awesome residency but it should not be ventured into without realizing the fact that its hard long days.

Especially now that AP/CP is four years to learn AP you gotta work your arse off.

 

[LADoc00]

You are absolutely right....

We sleep in our own beds but have a ton of responsibility and still have to prepare for sign out and read, read, read as well as continue to look at slides.
Its an awesome residency but it should not be ventured into with realizing the fact that its hard long days.

Especially now that AP/CP is four years to learn AP you gotta work your arse off.

The attrition even at good programs is path is very high now and getting higher.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Many people who hear I'm going into path say, "Oh, that will be a great lifestyle, no intern year!" Granted, yes I'd rather do just about anything, including eat hot steaming t*rds, than do a traditional "intern year" in clinical medicine. But there is this misperception that path residency is so easy. 1st year path residents at my institution are running into the 80 hr rule and finding themselves either getting scolded or lying on their timesheets. And this is not a program known for being malignant. It's not - it's just hard work. So I have no delusions about residency being easy.

I too would delve into a hot steaming pile of poo at Old Country Buffet rather than doing an intern year.

Pathology residency clearly is NOT a walk in the park. And as yaah said, in almost every residency, the people have to put in the hours and work their tail off! The thing is, I think the work in path is more high-yield and educational than picking your bunghole all day as an intern doing 90% scut work and getting woken up at the middle of the night because some incontinent patient jettisoned liquid turd, slipped in it, and fell on his face. Then you got several problems to work up...diarrhea, disequilibrium, and possible head bleed. Which means let's consult A, B, and C for problem #1, D, E, F for the second problem, etc etc. etc. Then you wait around picking your nose and making booger sculptures while these consults are slowly completed. No thanks.

I personally am looking forward to working my balls off during path residency, especially 1st year when everything is new. Sure, there will be scut work and some unpleasantries here and there but for the most part, I see myself actually enjoying what I'm doing (contrary to the whole 3rd year of med school).

 

[cytoborg]

I personally am looking forward to working my balls off during path residency, especially 1st year when everything is new. Sure, there will be scut work and some unpleasantries here and there but for the most part, I see myself actually enjoying what I'm doing (contrary to the whole 3rd year of med school).

Same here. I am greatly looking forward to residency. 😱 Shocking! Most other ppl seem to view residency as a necessary evil. And path residents are among the few residents I've met who feel they are doing something worthwhile with their time, despite the hard work. Pretty much everything you are learning is relevant, as opposed to the myriad mind-numbing activities in other fields, a few of which Andy has so colorfully described. 😉 Andy, your descriptive prowess is truly humbling man.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Same here. I am greatly looking forward to residency. 😱 Shocking! Most other ppl seem to view residency as a necessary evil. And path residents are among the few residents I've met who feel they are doing something worthwhile with their time, despite the hard work. Pretty much everything you are learning is relevant, as opposed to the myriad mind-numbing activities in other fields, a few of which Andy has so colorfully described. 😉 Andy, your descriptive prowess is truly humbling man.

👍
Cheers c-diddy!

BTW, when my PhD adviser was pounding the notion of going into IM during grad phase, the whole "necesary evil" concept applied. You put in your time and then you get a faculty position. As I went through M3 year and 4th year medicine subIs (at a joke hospital, might I add, which didn't work you nearly as hard as the U of Michigan hospital), I found it harder and harder to justify this "necessary evil" of doing IM more and more. Residency is no walk in the park and it goes on for a few years so I say do something you see yourself enjoying and make yourself happy!

 

[yaah]

As someone who only recently started their residency, I can tell you that each day of residency is vastly more interesting and educational than the average week of med school. There are times when you have nothing to do, but unlike clinical stuff, it generally doesn't occur while you have 10 minutes before rounds, 20 minutes before grand rounds, etc. You can be productive. And there is always something to learn.

It is hard work, yes, but pretty much what I expected there.