pathologist incomes?

[bruinkid]

Alright,
So i'm a 3rd year med student doing a family practice rotation right now. i'm interested in pathology and my family preceptor and i happened to be talking about pathologists. she told me that pathologists don't make a lot of money. is that true???
in my mind..i was thinking that it was weird coming out of a family practioners mouth, because i thought they make the least!

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[Jeeves]

Alright,
So i'm a 3rd year med student doing a family practice rotation right now. i'm interested in pathology and my family preceptor and i happened to be talking about pathologists. she told me that pathologists don't make a lot of money. is that true???
in my mind..i was thinking that it was weird coming out of a family practioners mouth, because i thought they make the least!

http://pathology.uth.tmc.edu/RecruitmenttoolUT.ppt

 

[lazymike71]

Heres a site I found

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

 

[tsj]

Don't trust any published salary reports for pathogogists or any physicians.

Path has a wide range of salary from 100K to 1,500,000, with most pathologists earning 200k (if in academics) to 500 K (in community setting), some much higher in special settings.

To some it up, path pays better than most and worse than a few. It is really up to you to find your own niche.

 

[drPLUM]

Don't trust any published salary reports for pathogogists or any physicians.

Path has a wide range of salary from 100K to 1,500,000, with most pathologists earning 200k (if in academics) to 500 K (in community setting), some much higher in special settings.

To some it up, path pays better than most and worse than a few. It is really up to you to find your own niche.

500k may be a little high for what I've heard in private practice. I have heard 250-300k for private practice (partner level) and 120-150K for academics (for tenure track prof). However, this is all hearsay from residents since I am a lowly M4.

 

[trent05]

500k may be a little high for what I've heard in private practice. I have heard 250-300k for private practice (partner level) and 120-150K for academics (for tenure track prof). However, this is all hearsay from residents since I am a lowly M4.

From what I've heard private practice partners usually make about 275 to 400. I'm not sure how much academics make after several years, but I do know that 120 is the starting salary for new attendings at my institution.

 

[LADoc00]

From what I've heard private practice partners usually make about 275 to 400. I'm not sure how much academics make after several years, but I do know that 120 is the starting salary for new attendings at my institution.

Umm, not sure about the usually make 400 thing. Depends on where you are. Private practice is getting more rare these days. Rest assured jobs as county employees or with an HMO or with reference labs are FAR closer to your 120 figure than the 400.

I own a mini-business within an established practice where I can do my subspeciality thing , create my own report format and peddle my skill set to local docs while helping the established practice sign out their daily bread and butter (our billing is combined but I tally up all the extra stuff I provide and get that $$ as a separate check quartely). I have a HUGE tax write off ability so that even if my salary was mid range, Im living essentially free of charge off the business. Owning your lab is absolutely 100% the best way to go if you have the common sense to do it properly.

 

[tsj]

Umm, not sure [/QUOTE

 

[trent05]

I know someone who just completed a cytpoath fellowship and got hired at 280 starting at Kaiser in Northern CA. Also know of a guy straight out of fellowship who is going to get 350-370 starting at a commersial lab in the Northeast.

 

[LADoc00]

I know someone who just completed a cytpoath fellowship and got hired at 280 starting at Kaiser in Northern CA. Also know of a guy straight out of fellowship who is going to get 350-370 starting at a commersial lab in the Northeast.

I am very familiar with the Kaiser system in NorCal, they have a set salary amount and trust me it is lower than 280K/year, try more 180-200, maybe a 15K bonus IF you are subspeciality certified. Still good but you are guys are throwing around insanely inflated numbers. I have been on over 25 job interviews and recieved about 20 different contract offers (all which I had an attorney look over so Im very familiar with details). I have looked at offers from Quest, LabCorp, Ameripath etc. and they are nowhere NEAR 350K for someone straight out, that is absurd, beyond absurd. Not that you cant eventually make that if factored in stock options (if they go up that is), 401K etc. in a commercial setting.

Im not ripping on people here, but trying to keep it as real as possible. Some poor fellow is going to get a 180K offer and think he is getting screwed. We need to back off the "I heard from a friend, who's former roomate in college got an offer 900K to read pap smears at Kaiser" B.S.

Urologists right out training make nowhere NEAR 500K and sure as crap not at Kaiser, I just had a urologist look over my shoulder at that post and was laughing his butt off. Do you know urologists make LESS take home (not even adjusted for inflation!) now than they did in 1975?

Enough is enough, seriously, you wont get more than 250K and that only if you have seriously platinum credentials and interview like a pro. Even in derm, there is simply no need to pay anymore than that because you can find a TON of pathologists who would easily take 100K less. This is a business, and frankly the supply of pathologists is outstripping the demand at the moment.

 

[trent05]

Dude, LADOC, you're gonna make me cry. At least let us fantasize about making the big salaries. Honestly though, the 350 is true. That number is after the "bonus". He told me ~230 base salary. But everyone gets 1.6 times base salary, so it comes out to ~350. That is starting, BUT the salary does not increase much or maybe at all after that. I won't even tell you how much I heard several Baylor cytopath fellows are gonna supposedly get in rural Texas, because I'll probably be banned from the forum .

 

[LADoc00]

Dude, LADOC, you're gonna make me cry. At least let us fantasize about making the big salaries. Honestly though, the 350 is true. That number is after the "bonus". He told me ~230 base salary. But everyone gets 1.6 times base salary, so it comes out to ~350. That is starting, BUT the salary does not increase much or maybe at all after that. I won't even tell you how much I heard several Baylor cytopath fellows are gonna supposedly get in rural Texas, because I'll probably be banned from the forum .

My first lowly job after fellowship I had a base of 200, that was INSANELY high for little/no experience, with bonuses and crap I made more but not 1.6x dude. Try more 1.1-1.3x. Now this is starting, Im not saying the golden ticket isnt out there, IT IS, I got an offer that *after* partnership and buy in, I would have been making near 600K with 3.5mos of vacation, but dude that is years down the road (and I passed on that)......I certainly BS alot on these forums, but I dont poor want Yaah and Company to cry when they stare down at 150K offers....
Reminds me of this fight I got into with a bunch of ******ed Cal grads who kept telling me they were expecting 130K right out of college for Ibanking starting...stupid, yes you can make alot in ibanking but they never start someone out at more than 70-80K, bonuses are super hard to come by. And they were Cal grads for heavan's sake! Undergrads even, they are like a million of em! I wouldnt pay em more than 15 bucks an hour and they would lucky to get that!! Hello, you can get into Cal with a 1100 SAT.

 

[trent05]

600K with 3.5mos of vacation 😱 . And you didn't take it 😕 . That's my dream job.

 

[LADoc00]

600K with 3.5mos of vacation 😱 . And you didn't take it 😕 . That's my dream job.

Because some of us dream bigger than others. 😉

 

[drPLUM]

My first lowly job after fellowship I had a base of 200.

I would take that in a heartbeat. Thats great for starting out- very few specialties make this much starting out while they are building their practices up. If I got offered that to start and then 250++ with partnership I'd being saying "where do I sign". But thats just me and I am still an idealistic M4. 😛

 

[yaah]

I certainly BS alot on these forums, but I dont poor want Yaah and Company to cry when they stare down at 150K offers....

Well I frankly don't care much about my future starting salary at this point. I am in the field, am going to be in the field, and have a few years left to train before I am confronted with it. I know I am going to be well compensated - HOW well compensated is not my concern at this point. When the time comes obviously I will weigh my offers bearing in mind that salary is not everything.

I agree people get hung up way too much on numbers.

 

[Matte Kudesai]

Well I frankly don't care much about my future starting salary at this point. I am in the field, am going to be in the field, and have a few years left to train before I am confronted with it. I know I am going to be well compensated - HOW well compensated is not my concern at this point. When the time comes obviously I will weigh my offers bearing in mind that salary is not everything.

I agree people get hung up way too much on numbers.

What sucks is that I am seeing PA's starting at 80 K and quickly moving up to 100K +. I am not dissing the field but its only a two year degree... no residency, no boards, no fellowship, no law suits. Its crazy that after 5+ years of training (after undergrad and medical school no less) you start at 120K in academics and they expect you to write grants to support your salary.
I have no idea how they expect to recruit anyone into academics.

 

[PathOne]

Ah, pay. An eternal subject. Dermpath will start generally start you out at around 250K, usually with pretty good working hours. Though places like Ameripath will make you read 200-300 slides daily. Generally, it's my feeling that pay overall is moving down, not up.

Of course, there's also those people that makes seven figures. However, I only know of one personally.

 

[RyMcQ]

I'll chime in here and say that 200 base is probably about right. There are jobs (getting rarer, I think) where the bonuses push the compensation past 400, but you also have to look at how many specimens these groups are handling per person per year. The group that I know of where partners made 640/year (comp plus bonuses) did an insane number of specimens/year as well as being medical directors of several labs in a 50 mile radius. I think some groups attempt to sign out way too many cases when they should be hiring another pathologist for patient safety.

I have also heard of groups employing dubious techniques to inflate their income, like splitting specimens received for frozen section. (One container with two tissue fragments get charged as two specimens.) I'd steer clear of these.

 

[drPLUM]

I'll chime in here and say that 200 base is probably about right.

I assume you mean 200 base with experience? 200 base being normal for starting out would surprise me.

 

[Cabbage Head]

Dude, LADOC, you're gonna make me cry. At least let us fantasize about making the big salaries. Honestly though, the 350 is true. That number is after the "bonus". He told me ~230 base salary. But everyone gets 1.6 times base salary, so it comes out to ~350. That is starting, BUT the salary does not increase much or maybe at all after that. I won't even tell you how much I heard several Baylor cytopath fellows are gonna supposedly get in rural Texas, because I'll probably be banned from the forum .

Last I heard, Texas still allowed you to bill for CP. Per case. So yeah, yer gonna make more if that's true.

 

[RyMcQ]

I assume you mean 200 base with experience? 200 base being normal for starting out would surprise me.

There are jobs that start lower, to be sure. But in my experience, the base salary is offered to pathologists just starting out. The increases come from bonuses offered after partnership (and sometimes percentages of the profits leading up to partnership). Maybe my experience is skewed because I (and many of the people I heard from) had one or more fellowships. There is also a huge difference depending on where you want to practice. It seems that practices in the Midwest are offering higher starting salaries.

I agree with LADoc that it is a supply-demand thing. Jobs on the coasts aren't going to pay as well, especially considering cost of living, because so many people want to live there. If you want to move to North Dakota, you might be able to command a much bigger salary.

 

[LADoc00]

I wanted to seriously reiterate look beyond the hard dollar amount and examine how your pay is structured. Realize if you can swing a job that pays all your expenses, that is a real advantage.

$1 of pay = 50 cents of purchasing power.
$1 of compensation = $1

To me super fancy health care plans are a waste and typically only benefit the old farts of a group.(one guy was trying to sell on the "platinum" health benefits package and I have no wife/kids...A gym membership would be far better)

Complex retirements packages for me are also not that big of deal. A simple 401K is fine, I dont have a whole lot of faith that this country will even be here by the time I retire so Im not thinking that far ahead. (The Kevin Costner flick "Postman" comes to mind)

Sooo what is good? Free Starbucks, free alcohol, free dinners at nice places, a free Benz and maybe a nice pimped out crib, debt relief, a new laptop, "business" presents like Prada shoes, paid for conferences in Hawaii and France etc.

Tax evasion is illegal but tax avoidance is your God given right as an American!

 

[Mr. Plow]

Tax evasion is illegal but tax avoidance is your God given right as an American!

Amen to that! Milk it.

 

[Gut Shot]

Tax evasion is illegal but tax avoidance is your God given right as an American!

I belive the term is "avoision."

 

[ssingh0]

Reminds me of this fight I got into with a bunch of ******ed Cal grads who kept telling me they were expecting 130K right out of college for Ibanking starting...stupid, yes you can make alot in ibanking but they never start someone out at more than 70-80K, bonuses are super hard to come by. And they were Cal grads for heavan's sake! Undergrads even, they are like a million of em! I wouldnt pay em more than 15 bucks an hour and they would lucky to get that!! Hello, you can get into Cal with a 1100 SAT.

Hi LAdoc, I read a lot of your posts and they're really insightful and helpful. Thank you.

This part though, you are wrong. My brother went to Cal, and started with an ibanking company in SF. He signed at 80k, and made the max 50k bonus first year = 130. My brothers best friend went to MIT, started at Morgan Stanley, first year salary pretty much the same. My brother was working crazy hours, starting at 8, and ending anywhere from 8pm-2am. Of course that type of bonus is not given out is you're sub par.

But, the point is they were not ******ed, you don't know what you're talking about, and I don't know why you put them down so badly, and talk as if you're an authority on something you're clearly not in-the-know about, type LA personality complex?

 

[djmd]

This part though, you are wrong. My brother went to Cal, and started with an ibanking company in SF. He signed at 80k, and made the max 50k bonus first year = 130. My brothers best friend went to MIT, started at Morgan Stanley, first year salary pretty much the same. My brother was working crazy hours, starting at 8, and ending anywhere from 8pm-2am. Of course that type of bonus is not given out is you're sub par.

But, the point is they were not ******ed, you don't know what you're talking about, and I don't know why you put them down so badly, and talk as if you're an authority on something you're clearly not in-the-know about, type LA personality complex?

Not that LADoc needs me to defend him, but listen to what you said.
Brother went to Cal, Signed at 80k, made 50k Bonus, but that is the max bonus and he worked 12 to 18 hour days. These kids LADoc refered to expected to make 130k, but LADoc said 70-80k with big bonus super hard to come by.

Sounds like you just proved him right. Base 80k, Bonus MAX 50k, which to get you have to work 60-90 hrs weeks.

 

[LADoc00]

Hi LAdoc, I read a lot of your posts and they're really insightful and helpful. Thank you.

This part though, you are wrong. My brother went to Cal, and started with an ibanking company in SF. He signed at 80k, and made the max 50k bonus first year = 130. My brothers best friend went to MIT, started at Morgan Stanley, first year salary pretty much the same. My brother was working crazy hours, starting at 8, and ending anywhere from 8pm-2am. Of course that type of bonus is not given out is you're sub par.

But, the point is they were not ******ed, you don't know what you're talking about, and I don't know why you put them down so badly, and talk as if you're an authority on something you're clearly not in-the-know about, type LA personality complex?

I never said it was impossible, the point was they naturally EXPECTED 130K the day after they graduated from Cal, like it was handed out by Sproul Hall 15 minutes after you got your diploma. Plus they were jerk offs, acted they were fresh from Duke Lacrosse Party.

If that is your thing, have at it Hoss, because ibankers will make more than 95% of pathologists.

 

[ssingh0]

whatever the personality complex of cal pre-ibankers (vs. cal premeds? ) your refusal to believe what they know to be true probably flared their jerk off tendencies.

"The young associates nurse their supersize egos while their bosses try to crush them; they curse profusely and live large on four hours of sleep a night; they subsidize the strip clubs of Manhattan before Mayor Giuliani took the perk away from Wall Street."

It is very competitive to get signed by ibanking at Cal. Those who do get signed, fully expect to work those hours, as they are standard the first few years, and so they expect that salary first year too.

main point: that "max bonus" is not "super hard" to come by; those hours are standard, expected. My brother or his best friend are given as stereotypical, average examples of ibanking students. Some, who get into those really select, small firms where you need connections, make a whole lot more, first year. Please read monkey business for more familiarity (sort of like House of God of ibanking world). Those dudes made 200,000 first year.

By the time Rolfe and Troob were able to discern the key fact that the "investment banking community has long been an oligopoly, with only a handful of real players with the size and scale to drive through the big deals," they were already grappling with the gritty reality of performing grunt labor in an environment ruled by despotic senior partners who called innumerable meetings to set unrealistic deadlines and make superhuman demands on anybody within screaming distance. The authors' resulting disappointment and disaffection leaps off every page.

There they find themselves part of a horde of overworked and frustrated lemmings who receive super duper paychecks and superhuman abuse. In this high-stakes pressure-cooker, 20-hour days, late night trips to strip clubs, inflated salaries, and mind-numbing work are standard, and high-powered, outlandish personalities are the unforgettable norm.

For a more productive discussion, comparisons to residency, practicing FP/IM, etc. in managed care, surgery, would be interesting, except paychecks and the glamar facade are much less, except for surgery. For those who cry you can't explain how patient-interaction medicine is, or what residency does to you, I get the feeling ibankers say the same.

(Anyway, I should have done this by pm initially. You have only proven your ignorance, second time. please reserve urges to give ignorant rebuttal.)

 

[yaah]

OK, let's drop the talk about i-banking and i-bankers. It is irrelevant. If it continues I will close the thread.

 

[LADoc00]

I have a brother who is an ibanker as well and he went to a school a whole lot better than Cal! LOL

And guess what, I have a brother who is a dentist who OWNS everyone in my family in terms of salary, so what is your point?

~Oral surgery for the win!

Average salary for investment analyst from salary.com
Total cash compensation
(base + bonuses)
Investment Analyst 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
San Francisco, CA $52,218 $64,433 $82,035

Surgeon - Oral 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
San Francisco, CA $174,268 $225,007 $330,578

thats some serious ownage.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

My cousin is an endodontist and she makes mad bank! I remember a few years ago she showed me one of her biweekly paychecks...the amount she made was more than I made in an entire year!

I have a brother who is an ibanker as well and he went to a school a whole lot better than Cal! LOL

And guess what, I have a brother who is a dentist who OWNS everyone in my family in terms of salary, so what is your point?

~Oral surgery for the win!

Average salary for investment analyst from salary.com
Total cash compensation
(base + bonuses)
Investment Analyst 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
San Francisco, CA $52,218 $64,433 $82,035

Surgeon - Oral 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
San Francisco, CA $174,268 $225,007 $330,578

thats some serious ownage.

 

[LADoc00]

late night trips to strip clubs

Also I bet those strippers owned the ibankers as well, they EASILY pull in 100K+ in a big city when they are 18 and pay no taxes b/c its all cash!

~Stripping for the win!

Q.E.D.- Thus two totally different groups have been thus shown to have mad ownage on ibankers.

 

[tsj]

?

 

[hizo1]

Also I bet those strippers owned the ibankers as well, they EASILY pull in 100K+ in a big city when they are 18 and pay no taxes b/c its all cash!

~Stripping for the win!

Q.E.D.- Thus two totally different groups have been thus shown to have mad ownage on ibankers.

PWN3D!!!!!!111111

 

[Taurus]

Also I bet those strippers owned the ibankers as well, they EASILY pull in 100K+ in a big city when they are 18 and pay no taxes b/c its all cash!

~Stripping for the win!

Q.E.D.- Thus two totally different groups have been thus shown to have mad ownage on ibankers.

Strippers own all of us. No schooling required...and they can make 5k/day. Of course, they just need to leave their morals at the door.

 

[PathOne]

Alright,
So i'm a 3rd year med student doing a family practice rotation right now. i'm interested in pathology and my family preceptor and i happened to be talking about pathologists. she told me that pathologists don't make a lot of money. is that true???
in my mind..i was thinking that it was weird coming out of a family practioners mouth, because i thought they make the least!

Apart from i-banking and sports (incl. such things as collegiate coaching), pathologists can do ok...

#2 on this list is a pathologist who went into Dermpath. He's doing quite nicely, thank you. Oh, and #4 is also a Dermatopathologist, btw. 😀

http://www.sfgate.com/news/special/pages/2005/ucsalary/

 

[pathstudent]

Notable pathologists from that list...

Leboit 1.5 mill
Mccallmont 1.5 mill
Abbas 374,000 (famous research pathologist)
Ferrel 253K (famous liver pathologist)
Olson 203K (famous kidney pathologist)
Weidner 300K (famous all around surgical pathology stud)
Zaloudek 253K (famous gyn pathologist)

Not too bad....

 

[LADoc00]

Notable pathologists from that list...

Leboit 1.5 mill
Mccallmont 1.5 mill
Abbas 374,000 (famous research pathologist)
Ferrel 253K (famous liver pathologist)
Olson 203K (famous kidney pathologist)
Weidner 300K (famous all around surgical pathology stud)
Zaloudek 253K (famous gyn pathologist)

Not too bad....

To be honest, that isnt all that much considering those people are in their late 50s. Some of them also spent 15+ years in med school, residency PhD research blah blah, that is a HUGE amount of opportunity cost. The ibanker is making six figures the day he leaves undergrad at 21.

Would you rather have money when you are 50 or 22? That is huge because IMO money loses value as you age and sometimes quite dramatically.

Ferrel for example. At her age an ibanker who had weathered his earlier years would a millionare several times over and if he wanted retired in Pacific Heights, sipping lattes every morning and strolling through Golden Gate park while Dr. Ferrel slepped off to UCSF to deal with prima donna surgeons and silly residents.

Im not arguing with the ibanker guy here (his username sounds like an East Indian name, which then Im sure I know the type) that ibanking maybe a better use of your time if you are gunning for la dolce vita, but I would definitely disagree that is the end all he is making it out to be.

 

[tsj]

That sucks to have your salary published.

The Frisco Chronicle should have better sense then to publish a bunch of physician's salaries. That is private information. Almost all of those guys are doctors on that list I bet.

How can academics get the best and brightest physicians if they don't match or at least come close to what you make in community practic? I'm glad those guys are making that much.

 

[LADoc00]

That sucks to have your salary published.

The Frisco Chronicle should have better sense then to publish a bunch of physician's salaries. That is private information. Almost all of those guys are doctors on that list I bet.

How can academics get the best and brightest physicians if they don't match or at least come close to what you make in community practic? I'm glad those guys are making that much.

Actually alot of people on that "list" are adminstrators which was the point of publishing that. They are public employees and via the FOIA, their salary is public domain just like police, military and political officials. Everything is relative Tsj, I had a friend with call me yesterday to tell me about his new 500K/yr rads gig, he is in his early 30s. My college roomate is buying his 2nd Benz and a townhouse in SF, he is also in his 30s, a lawyer and making more than everyone on the list but the 2 dermies. My childhood friend dropped out of medschool, went JD/MBA and is buying his second house in Maui currently, making a tad more than the pure JD college roomate. Mind you none of this is inherited money, these guys were all dirt poo' like myself circa 15 years ago. Medicine isnt getting the best and brightest anymore, at least not from this country.

Here is the reality: You can only make so much $$ ever in medicine, even if you are the god of interventional rads or the second coming of Bernie Ackerman. There is a wall, that even with psychotic amounts of additional work you cannot pierce. Compare this to the hedgefund manager, the sky is the limit here. What about the corp execs in general? Entertainment execs? Marketing people? The thing is people will only pay so much for a skin read, period. You cant just charge 1000 bucks and say you are offering Louis Vutton quality, it doesnt work that way. And every year that amount people pay drops, so working more to make the same year after year becomes an endless uphill struggle and zero sum game. Add this to 10+ years of lost income due to school and residency, these other folks were banking that time, putting money in 401Ks and long term CDs or real estate or whatever. Financially you lose in the end, which why I shifted my focus to launching a revolution. Only through a true free market health care system with no government interference can the situation be halted.