Pathology Job Search 2011-2012

[Pathguy11]

were all the 52 fellows you surveyed doing their first fellowship?

No. To clarify MOST of the fellows entering the job market will have completed 2 fellowships at the end of June. A good portion did a Surg Path year first and then some subspecialty. The vast majority of fellows who are entering a second fellowship have done only one previous fellowship. Specifically out of the 17 fellows who are entering a second fellowship, ALL were either those who were completing their first fellowship in general Surgical Pathology or Hemepath fellows who are doing a second year for research. Only a few fellows that I know did one fellowship and entered the job market, but of course these people are examples that it does happen. Overall, 2 fellowships seems to be the new normal thing to do in my region. As mentioned above most have previously or are currently doing a general surg path year and then a second fellowship in any other specialty you can imagine. I think this is a decent representation of the current trend since our large academic training centers in my area receive fellows from all of the country, and world for that matter.

Pathguy11

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[Euchromatin]

We had 3 fellows this year, 2 hemepath and 1 cyto. All 3 just did the one fellowship and all 3 have jobs for July. The two that wanted to stay local were able to and the other one got a job one state over from their desired, original home state.

Last year we had 5 fellows, 2 hemepath, 1 cyto, 1 transfusion/blood bank and 1 chemistry. I didn't know them quite as well (so I'm not absolutely sure that they only did the one year at our institute), but I know that all 5 got jobs. One went to a different country that was desirable to them in the region of the world they were originally from and the other 4 went to various parts of the U.S. None of last year's fellows were from Michigan originally or specifically wanted to stay, so I'm assuming their jobs were in geographically desirable regions for them, but I'm not certain of that.

 

[hesperion]

I just wanted to chime in and say that I was recently at an organ-specific multi-day conference (which I'm going to do a fellowship in starting in July) and was given contact info, unsolicited I should add, for a private practice group. I didn't go to the conference trying to make connections, I was just being my normal people-person chatty self. So there you go.

 

[Pathguy11]

I just wanted to chime in and say that I was recently at an organ-specific multi-day conference (which I'm going to do a fellowship in starting in July) and was given contact info, unsolicited I should add, for a private practice group. I didn't go to the conference trying to make connections, I was just being my normal people-person chatty self. So there you go.

Networking is huge in Pathology, as with other specialties, but probably more so in ours. If groups recognize you as a "normal" person with good communication skills you will probably have more Pathologists in private groups tell you, "give us a call when you are done with training". If you are able to take on any leadership roles in organizations like CAP or ASCP, etc during your training that could also help open some doors...I know it did for me. I had the same experience you are describing throughout residency and fellowship at national meetings. I made a point to attend things like the Residents forum AND also the events that have mingling between practicing Pathologists and residents/fellows. I also had several informal offers to contact groups from around the country through Pathologists I met at meetings. I always thanked them and ackowledged that I would "just have to do that", even though I always knew I would be geographically locked into a particular area due to my spouses job. So, congrats on an early start. I imagine you will be one who posts on here in a year or so that you found your ideal job. Thanks for posting.

Pathguy11

 

[Pathguy11]

Hello everyone. Well tonight we had our fellowship banquet and only one month left before I enter the real world of practice. During the "graduation" ceremony the future jobs and/or fellowships were mentioned for each person. I have combined this with the results from other fellows I know at training programs in my area. Here are the totals, take them for what they are. As of June 2, 2012:

52 Fellows from 12 differential fellowship specialty programs are accounted for.
2 Fellows are still unaccounted for (ie. I don't know their plans)

Subspecialty fellowships include: General Surgical Pathology (17), Hemepath (9), Cytopath (9), Breast (1), Cancer Biomarkers (2), Dermatopath (3), GI Path (2), GU Path (1), GYN Path (1), Head & Neck Path (1), Molecular (3), Soft Tissue (2), Forensics (1)

Out of 52 fellows, 33 are entering the workforce (obtained jobs) = 63.4%
Out of 52 fellows, 17 are doing a second fellowship = 32.6%

Out of 17 fellows doing a second fellowship, ALL were either General Surgical Pathology fellows entering a second fellowship OR Hemepath fellows who were doing a second year of research. It seemed like most of these people had already planned and/or arranged these 2nd fellowship before entering this academic year.

Out of those 33 who found jobs, 13 are staying in the same state = 39.4%
Out of those 33 who found jobs, 20 were leaving for another state or country = 60.4%
Out of those 20 leaving the state, 1 took a job in Canada and 4 took jobs overseas in their countries of origin

Well that's about all I have. Take this information for what it is. As I mentioned in my very first post, I am not trying to paint a positive or negative picture of the job market. Rather I am sharing the experiences of myself and the fellows in my area. It appears from what I can tell that everyone in my area who looked for a job during this past interview season DID find a job. A good portion of people were continuing their training with a 2nd fellowship. A majority of those who found jobs did 2 fellowships. Please continue to share your experiences on this thread.

Pathguy11

I need to make one quick update to this information after speaking with another fellow at my institution. It was brought to my attention that two of the fellows mentioned in the results above who were listed as doing a second fellowship, are infact doing a THIRD fellowship as a result of difficulty finding a job (or so I have been told). I do not have more details than that other than there may have been some geographic restrictions involved. I also do not know how widespread these particular individuals looked for a job, nor when they dropped out of the "job race" for this year to accept another fellowship. For accuracy sake, I wanted to add these results to my previously posted results.

Pathguy11

 

[DrMyEyes]

If you were an employer looking to hire someone, do you think seeing someone with 3 fellowships is actually more of a red flag than a hiring point? I would think it points to some reason they didn't get hired with 2 or 1 fellowship when at least some of their pathology peers are getting some type of job. Obviously if you have absolutely no offer or are geographically restricted you have to do something to pay the bills. I would think that even if you wanted to do private practice, spending a year or two in academics (where it seems like from this site the market is a bit better) to establish yourself would be a better move than doing more and more fellowships and hoping this will entice employers.

 

[Enkidu]

Well, doing three fellowships doesn't seem too bad to me. Three pathology fellowships is the time equivalent of one IM fellowship.

Frankly, my sense of pathology training is that its too short anyway. If a large percentage of residents do surgpath fellowships, that kind of suggests that residency doesn't contain enough surgpath training. Likewise, if residents feel like they need a fellowship in order to sign out cytopathology, then probably cytopathology training in residency is insufficient too. Surgical pathology and cytopathology are not exactly subspecialties, that's routine stuff.

 

[path or no path]

I need to make one quick update to this information after speaking with another fellow at my institution. It was brought to my attention that two of the fellows mentioned in the results above who were listed as doing a second fellowship, are infact doing a THIRD fellowship as a result of difficulty finding a job (or so I have been told). I do not have more details than that other than there may have been some geographic restrictions involved. I also do not know how widespread these particular individuals looked for a job, nor when they dropped out of the "job race" for this year to accept another fellowship. For accuracy sake, I wanted to add these results to my previously posted results.

Pathguy11

Are they FMGs?

 

[Pathguy11]

Are they FMGs?

I am almost positive that one is but I am not sure about the other one though.

 

[KCShaw]

Personally, I think I would ask any potential employee why they did or did not do a fellowship or series of fellowships, and get that information from them directly. I don't know for sure what I would do if I had no choice but to filter a large number of applicants without the ability to at least talk to them on the phone first, though, as I would probably have to do were I receiving 50-100+ applications for every position. I would like to think that many of them would have obvious issues allowing me to narrow it down to a manageable number. For me I doubt having 3 fellowships would be part of the filter process, in and of itself. I would be more interested in whether at least one of those fellowships was particularly relevant to the position I was considering hiring them into.

Three is perhaps more than usual, but with selective/non-boarded fellowships being so widespread, the existence of the generic surg path fellowships, the economy affecting hiring patterns, and the appearance of the job market, I can certainly see some 3-fellowship spreads making some sense, or at least not necessarily being a detractor to the quality of the applicant. Four, however, I think would raise some mental red flags -- at least, would raise more than just a little curiosity as to how or why that happened, as I don't think I know or have even heard of someone doing that. But possibly it would be so unusual that I'd have to call them to find out rather than filter them out of the applicant pool...

 

[lipomas]

3 fellowships would be a bit odd to me. It wouldn't exclude or include a candidate - the other qualifications would. But it would raise a lot of questions that would need to be addressed before hiring. Foremost among these questions, "Just what the hell do you want to do?" That matters. We wouldn't hire someone whose answer to that question is "get a job." It's good to have general skills so you can do many different things but you can't be an expert in everything. No matter what practice you end up in you are going to focus in some fashion. Even if you're in a 3 person group you will still divide things up.

Offhand I can't really think of a great reason why someone would do three fellowships that would make them a compelling hire. I can see something like cytopath + surg path + breast not being a detriment. But if we are hiring someone to do a lot of cyto it doesn't really matter whether they did the other two.But I can also see something like hemepath + GI path + cytopath being a problem. It suggests to me they have little confidence (despite having a good enough resume and talent to get competitive fellowships) and don't really know what they want and are hoping it just all works out without them having to actually show how good they are. I guess maybe you could be covering your bases so that you are desirable to a greater number of jobs, but this is a pretty crappy strategy. You're giving up a lot just on the offchance it might help. If you're a good candidate you're going to be a good candidate.

Our most recent job posting got quite a few applicants. A lot of them were not even close to being considered. Some of them were obviously not very well versed in the english language, and others were obviously not well versed in human interaction. When you can tell someone is bad at human interaction before even meeting them, that's a pretty good indicator. A lot of others were ok candidates (READ: adequate pathologists who change jobs every 3 years, people right out of training without stellar recommendations, people like that, in other words people we could work with but wouldn't go out of our way to recruit) but didn't have the qualifications THAT WE HAD PUT INTO THE AD! (i.e. cytopath fellowship or significant experience). One ad we got was from a guy who said he did mostly hemepath and wanted to keep doing that. OK. So why did you apply? The people we have all hired were, to be honest, people we sort of recruited to come. Even though we advertised, the net-casting that went with the advertising didn't end up providing much else other than convincing us that the candidate we recruited was definitely the best person, and by the way this included people right out of training.

There is also a small and, to be honest, crappy hospital near us who tried to hire a pathologist recently. They had trouble finding an adequate candidate.

So I don't know what this means. I hear all the time that the job market isn't great, that it can be hard to find a good job. But I also experience all this about these totally unqualified candidates. I guess that suggests that residency programs are pumping out too many subpar candidates, but I would suspect that almost all of these people don't consider themselves subpar. But what I can tell you it means from the people we have hired is that if you are a good candidate (forget what fellowship you did) you will do fine. You might have to take a job in a different city at first though. Pathology is a smaller field. The job turnover isn't that high even in big cities and especially at good practices. Don't indict the field just because you can't get a job in South Bend IN when there may be a new pathologist hired in South Bend every 10 years at best.

But at the same time, if you're not a good candidate, then don't go into pathology in the first place.

 

[Pathguy11]

3 fellowships would be a bit odd to me. It wouldn't exclude or include a candidate - the other qualifications would. But it would raise a lot of questions that would need to be addressed before hiring. Foremost among these questions, "Just what the hell do you want to do?" That matters. We wouldn't hire someone whose answer to that question is "get a job." It's good to have general skills so you can do many different things but you can't be an expert in everything. No matter what practice you end up in you are going to focus in some fashion. Even if you're in a 3 person group you will still divide things up.

Offhand I can't really think of a great reason why someone would do three fellowships that would make them a compelling hire. I can see something like cytopath + surg path + breast not being a detriment. But if we are hiring someone to do a lot of cyto it doesn't really matter whether they did the other two.But I can also see something like hemepath + GI path + cytopath being a problem. It suggests to me they have little confidence (despite having a good enough resume and talent to get competitive fellowships) and don't really know what they want and are hoping it just all works out without them having to actually show how good they are. I guess maybe you could be covering your bases so that you are desirable to a greater number of jobs, but this is a pretty crappy strategy. You're giving up a lot just on the offchance it might help. If you're a good candidate you're going to be a good candidate.

Our most recent job posting got quite a few applicants. A lot of them were not even close to being considered. Some of them were obviously not very well versed in the english language, and others were obviously not well versed in human interaction. When you can tell someone is bad at human interaction before even meeting them, that's a pretty good indicator. A lot of others were ok candidates (READ: adequate pathologists who change jobs every 3 years, people right out of training without stellar recommendations, people like that, in other words people we could work with but wouldn't go out of our way to recruit) but didn't have the qualifications THAT WE HAD PUT INTO THE AD! (i.e. cytopath fellowship or significant experience). One ad we got was from a guy who said he did mostly hemepath and wanted to keep doing that. OK. So why did you apply? The people we have all hired were, to be honest, people we sort of recruited to come. Even though we advertised, the net-casting that went with the advertising didn't end up providing much else other than convincing us that the candidate we recruited was definitely the best person, and by the way this included people right out of training.

There is also a small and, to be honest, crappy hospital near us who tried to hire a pathologist recently. They had trouble finding an adequate candidate.

So I don't know what this means. I hear all the time that the job market isn't great, that it can be hard to find a good job. But I also experience all this about these totally unqualified candidates. I guess that suggests that residency programs are pumping out too many subpar candidates, but I would suspect that almost all of these people don't consider themselves subpar. But what I can tell you it means from the people we have hired is that if you are a good candidate (forget what fellowship you did) you will do fine. You might have to take a job in a different city at first though. Pathology is a smaller field. The job turnover isn't that high even in big cities and especially at good practices. Don't indict the field just because you can't get a job in South Bend IN when there may be a new pathologist hired in South Bend every 10 years at best.

But at the same time, if you're not a good candidate, then don't go into pathology in the first place.

Thanks for sharing your experience from the "other side" of the table. I definitely found it very interesting.

Pathguy11

 

[cjw0918]

I agree with lipomas. GOOD jobs are hard to find due to low turnover, but it is also difficult to find good candidates. The job search becomes less difficult after getting over the hurdle of landing that first job. Practices are much more open to someone who has a couple years of experience than someone fresh out of training, at least in my area.

With some experience a prospective employer can hope to learn something through references. Most references from residency are like references from elementary school- So and so was a good boy, showed up, and did his work. Doesn't mean much. You're still an unknown at that point, and who wants to take a chance on an unknown?

When I think about the residents I have helped train in the past, I would say only about a third of them could succeed in a private practice pathology job. The rest have personality problems, are woefully inefficient, lack diagnostic ability, or communicate poorly. I have no idea what some of them will find/ have found as far as jobs.

 

[Pathwrath]

Our group has hired three new pathologists over the past ten years. Over that time, I've noticed the same thing others here have mentioned, namely that the number of fellowships per applicant has definitely increased. I think this is market driven rather than a reflection on the applicants' indecisiveness. A first fellowship is now mandatory for landing a job, and the additional ones are added until they get a job. The problem we've noticed is that many of these applicant lack essential basic surgical pathology skills. They've spent too much time chasing fellowships and on research and not enough time pushing glass.

 

[path24]

I need to make one quick update to this information after speaking with another fellow at my institution. It was brought to my attention that two of the fellows mentioned in the results above who were listed as doing a second fellowship, are infact doing a THIRD fellowship as a result of difficulty finding a job (or so I have been told). I do not have more details than that other than there may have been some geographic restrictions involved. I also do not know how widespread these particular individuals looked for a job, nor when they dropped out of the "job race" for this year to accept another fellowship. For accuracy sake, I wanted to add these results to my previously posted results.

Pathguy11

I would put those two in the unemployed camp. They are doing fellowships because they can't find a job. A fellowship shouldn't be considered a job in a survey. (Yes I realize it literally is a job, but it is a huge difference from an attending position...do we want to report jobs like law schools....add in bartending?) A lack of jobs is why some do the second fellowship....aka unemployed. A person doing a pathology residency, one fellowship, or two fellowships..etc. should be able to get a job. (Yes you should be able to get a job even just after residency, why the heck not!....why should pathology be different. If your program doesn't produce an attending after residency then it should be shut down) If they can't and have to do a fellowship (one, two, three) they should be looked at as unemployed in a job market survey. I feel this would be a more honest picture of the job market.

Yes people find jobs, but its a horrible market. You fight for a job, yes even for the crappy ones. Go into another area of medicine, let hospitals/practices fight to hire you. Live and practice under your terms. Stay away from pathology, the job market is poor and will only continue to be so.

 

[gbwillner]

I would put those two in the unemployed camp. They are doing fellowships because they can't find a job. A fellowship shouldn't be considered a job in a survey. (Yes I realize it literally is a job, but it is a huge difference from an attending position...do we want to report jobs like law schools....add in bartending?) A lack of jobs is why some do the second fellowship....aka unemployed.

This is simply false. Sorry. There are a lot of reasons why people do multiple fellowships other than they couldn't find a job. I don't even think it's the primary reason, from what I've seen. I've found people generally do multiple fellowships because they need to wait to get the fellowship the actually want, and do surgpath or something else while waiting for their dermpath spot to open up. An entire earlier thread was dedicated to pointing out that Sloan Kettering or some other place would only let you do a subspecialty fellowship after you did surgpath there. Some people also don't know what they want to do, or are crazy and actually WANT to do 2 fellowships. I know very few people who actually looked for jobs, gave up, and then looked for a fellowship. Most people have the fellowship spots lined-up for 1-2 years before they start anyway. Of course, maybe this is biased because I am coming from a well-regarded institution where residents and fellows don't really have trouble getting a job.

 

[deleted314957]

I'm not sure about this. I think if jobs were plentiful people would do far fewer fellowships

 

[cjw0918]

Agree with mike. Two fellowships is the norm in my parts, and I have seen few residents get a job with zero or only one. But people in my area are also very reluctant to hire straight out of training, so maybe they feel more confident with folks who have completed two fellowships. Ideally one should be independent sign-out.

 

[2121115]

Most people who plan in advance to do 2-3 fellowships do so because they assume they can't get a job otherwise. Think about it. Why would you desire to take *another* temporary 1 year job as a glorified resident making 50K when you could be making > 200K and checking off a year toward partnership while working independently and getting on with your life. The opportunity cost is tremendous.

 

[gbwillner]

Most people who plan in advance to do 2-3 fellowships do so because they assume they can't get a job otherwise. Think about it. Why would you desire to take *another* temporary 1 year job as a glorified resident making 50K when you could be making > 200K and checking off a year toward partnership while working independently and getting on with your life. The opportunity cost is tremendous.

If this is directed at me- I have thought about it. I agree- why would you want to do more than 1 (or 0) fellowships, when you could be practicing? From my experience, talking to my colleagues- no one thinks of it this way. No one. Most people want to do Hemepath- but there is only one spot open here, and not for another few years... they can do surgpath for a year and then hemepath. Or derm after heme. Or whatever. Some people do the surgpath year ON PURPOSE for some strange reason. They feel unprepared for the real world and think this year will help them. Maybe there are other reasons. But most do it as a bridge for what they actually want to do. I don't know a single individual from my residency class who tried to get a job without a fellowship. Not one. Didn't even bother. Of course, we had to decide on a fellowship after our second year of residency. That means we would have had to start looking for jobs before that. Who's going to hire a 1st or 2nd year path resident? The system is just not made that way in our specialty. It is geared to force us into fellowships.
On the flip side, I don't know any residents from my program who looked for a job and couldn't find one. It stands to reason that if they started looking earlier they might have found something.

 

[Pathguy11]

I'm not sure about this. I think if jobs were plentiful people would do far fewer fellowships

My response to this is a big MAYBE... If the jobs were SO plentiful that we were being recruited from day one out of residency and this was the normal situations for many year prior, then I agree we would do fewer fellowships. I don't think the connection is so crystal clear though. You also have to remember the timeline that many of us follow when applying for fellowships. We are talking about applying during our third year of residency in many cases for a first fellowship and then in our fourth year for a second fellowship. Many of the more competitive fellowships will fill a few years in advanced. When I was a junior resident, the resident ahead of my were all applying for fellowship, as did the upper levels directly above their group. It was only the last class of "5th year" Pathology residents that I know of who did not routinely do fellowship and go straight into the job market... and even some of them did a fellowship.

So, why did I opt to do two fellowships? Honestly, I wanted more scope time specifically devoted to Surg Path without the randomly inserted CP rotations. I don't think I felt nearly as prepared straight out of residency as I do now after a Surg Path fellowship. So I applied for a Surg Path fellowship during my third year of residency. I also wanted to have additional board certification and training in another area of Pathology, and I have always enjoyed Cytopathology and FNA. So I applied for a second Cytopath year during my fourth year of residency. Sure I thought these fellowship would help me be more competitive for a job (which I think they were), but it was not the driving force in doing them. I never even contacted a single group or sent out a single CV during my residency. I also knew that I would likely be geographically restricted so I wanted to do fellowship at a couple of the big named institutions in the city of my choice. The threat of a bad job market had a minimal influence on my decision and the vast majority of most fellows I know... perhaps more that I wanted to be more competitive for a quality job in a specific location. A few have had to "scamble" into an additional fellowship year because their job prospects were not looking great. I know others who were restricted to a certain geographic location and thus did a fellowship in that region to make connections and buy time until there was a job opening. For me, I was fortunate and found the job of my choice and in the city of my choice. I would not have likely had this opportunity without the track I took to get here.

So part of this whole equation is that now most residents are going directly into fellowships and they are making these decision based on multiple reason, including what they see their upper levels doing. I don't think this trend will change anytime soon now that the "initial domino has been activated".

Pathguy11

 

[green mantis]

I'm not sure about this. I think if jobs were plentiful people would do far fewer fellowships

I would definitely agree. If I was able to get a job in the area where I trained, I would've turned down any fellowship w/ the exception of DP. However, I did my residency in a geographically desirable part of the country (SoCal).

I wonder if people in less desirable areas have a different experience.


----- Antony

 

[yaah]

Well, there actually are people who do multiple fellowships for reasons other than the job market. There are a few who discover what they really want to do too late, so they don't end up doing their preferred fellowship until 2nd or even 3rd one. And there are quite a few who combine them as they think they are synergistic for their desired career goals. There are of course people who keep doing fellowships because either they can't find a job or they think it will help them find a job. For the latter folks, it is impossible to really tell whether the extra fellowships help or not.

 

[coroner]

I'm bumping this thread as it is a much delayed post which I meant to add to some time ago but didn't have a chance. However, I wanted to contribute as this was useful while I was going through the job search this past year. I was on the verge of doing a second fellowship because nothing looked like it was going to pan-out, but ended up getting a job offer at the last minute (mid June) which I accepted and thus backed out of the fellowship (before I was supposed to start, not during). I just began in October and wanted to make sure everything was finalized before sharing my experience, plus it's been a busy time for me moving to a new area and starting a job. Anyway here's my stats:

Estimated CVs sent out: >50 These were sent to open positions that were advertised, via physician recruitment agencies, from cold-calls, through word-of-mouth, and even unadvertised in geographically desirable areas that I was hoping to get a bite.

Total interviews completed: 5 (3 phone, 2 in person)

Remaining interviews: 0 (my search ended 5 months ago)

Number of job offers: 2

Practice setting: Private practice/community hospitals (3 person group)

Partnership track: Yes (3 yrs to partnership)

Reason for opening: Expansion (The group acquired a new hospital because the previous pathologist there died)

Location: Small town in the mid-Atlantic/Northeast (The other job offer was in one of the top 25 largest cities in the country, but the small town job was still within 1.5 hrs of that city and had better salary/perks)

Residency training: AP/CP (not a big-name program that some elitists on here would want to see get axed)

Fellowship: Straight surg path, homey (big program)

Board certification: Nope

State medical license: Not at the time of applying, but now obtained

Fellowship program stats: 11 fellows total
4 got jobs
3 pursued another fellowship
2 had to finish residency (they did a fellowship instead
of PGY-4)
2 unaccounted for

I think everyone should be aware of their respective qualifications and how it may suit the type of job positions they are looking for. In my case for instance, I didn't have boku research/publications nor did I come from a big name residency program so academic-type positions weren't really ideal for me. Lack of board-certification probably didn't help either, but some places are ok with that if you are just out of training as in my case. However, if you have been in practice 5+ years and are still not board-certified, you might have some explaining to do. Also, I had no experience (but we all gotta start somewhere, right?) and I didn't have subspecialty training. Sometimes it seems there's no rhyme or reason with how hospitals/pathology groups/faculty select which candidates to interview. I'm sure there are academic-type jobs that would've turned me down and offered positions to candidates who wouldn't have a shot at the private practice groups I interviewed with.

To relate to the job market and my views on it, here are a few thoughts. First, I wanted to mention that I was geographically flexible meaning if the only job I got was in Wyoming, I would've made the move out there, but wouldn't have looked forward to going to rodeos. The job I ended up taking was actually an advertised one, just when I was beginning to think that trying to land one of those are like playing the lottery. The pathologist in the group I'm now a part of told me that he had a stack of about 60-70 CVs and the physician recruiter for the hospital said she would get about two e-mails/phone calls per day inquiring about the position. This sentiment was echoed with other advertised positions I found out when casually asking the recruiter or pathologist how many people applied for the given position. It's fair to say that advertised jobs can get as many as 50-100 applications from what I experienced. Based on this, I would say the job market is not strong simply because if it was, the demand would be outpacing the supply. This would be evident if: a) physician recruiters were actively pursuing pathologists across the country to get them to come to their hospitals like they are for primary care physicians, urologists, and orthopedic surgeons b) pathology graduates could cherry-pick major metropolitan areas throughout the U.S. and find multiple openings c) jobs that are in b.f.e. or flat-out look crappy based on what's advertised would not get 50+ CVs sent to them. This is not what I observed. To further support this, during my search I also spoke with physician recruiters who recruited pathologists plus other fields in medicine. They would always talk to their recruiting colleagues for other specialties with the same company, and they said that pathology has some of the fewest job openings available amongst all practitioners on a monthly basis. I'm not trying to negative; just chipping my two cents from what I went through and trying to keep it one hundred…

That being said, just because the job market isn't strong doesn't mean it's impossible. I think that if one looks thoroughly and is flexible there are positions that will be offered. Obviously the good candidates that constitute the "haves" vs the "have-nots" will have an edge i.e. good communication skills, coming from a well-known program, board-certified, subspecialty training useful to the practice, prior experience (if not a new grad), no red-flags (job-hopping, questionable references, personality issues). Plus, out of the many applicants to the advertised jobs, probably half or so are ones who for whatever reason are not in a stable position or they're in-and-out of the job market periodically and; therefore, shotgunning any and every opportunity they hear of. So for recent graduates with a "normal" resume, they're starting off ahead of a significant percentage already.

Having said all that, I'm glad this is over. I would say the first job in one's career is the toughest because we're all coming in with no experience regardless of our training and that only comes with time. Also, we are on a clock to find a position because residency/fellowship ends on June 30. Whereas once you have a job, you're not on a deadline to find your next place of employment (should you desire to move on). And if nothing is working out or appealing at the moment, you can continue working at your current position until a good opportunity becomes available. So far, the job I'm at is what I've expected and pretty much what I envisioned seeing myself doing when I got into this field. All-in-all I'd say things worked out just fine, but down the road, only time will tell…best of luck to everyone in their search.

 

[KeratinPearls]

I'm bumping this thread as it is a much delayed post which I meant to add to some time ago but didn't have a chance. However, I wanted to contribute as this was useful while I was going through the job search this past year. I was on the verge of doing a second fellowship because nothing looked like it was going to pan-out, but ended up getting a job offer at the last minute (mid June) which I accepted and thus backed out of the fellowship (before I was supposed to start, not during). I just began in October and wanted to make sure everything was finalized before sharing my experience, plus it's been a busy time for me moving to a new area and starting a job. Anyway here's my stats:

Estimated CVs sent out: >50 These were sent to open positions that were advertised, via physician recruitment agencies, from cold-calls, through word-of-mouth, and even unadvertised in geographically desirable areas that I was hoping to get a bite.

Total interviews completed: 5 (3 phone, 2 in person)

Remaining interviews: 0 (my search ended 5 months ago)

Number of job offers: 2

Practice setting: Private practice/community hospitals (3 person group)

Partnership track: Yes (3 yrs to partnership)

Reason for opening: Expansion (The group acquired a new hospital because the previous pathologist there died)

Location: Small town in the mid-Atlantic/Northeast (The other job offer was in one of the top 25 largest cities in the country, but the small town job was still within 1.5 hrs of that city and had better salary/perks)

Residency training: AP/CP (not a big-name program that some elitists on here would want to see get axed)

Fellowship: Straight surg path, homey (big program)

Board certification: Nope

State medical license: Not at the time of applying, but now obtained

Fellowship program stats: 11 fellows total
4 got jobs
3 pursued another fellowship
2 had to finish residency (they did a fellowship instead
of PGY-4)
2 unaccounted for

I think everyone should be aware of their respective qualifications and how it may suit the type of job positions they are looking for. In my case for instance, I didn't have boku research/publications nor did I come from a big name residency program so academic-type positions weren't really ideal for me. Lack of board-certification probably didn't help either, but some places are ok with that if you are just out of training as in my case. However, if you have been in practice 5+ years and are still not board-certified, you might have some explaining to do. Also, I had no experience (but we all gotta start somewhere, right?) and I didn't have subspecialty training. Sometimes it seems there's no rhyme or reason with how hospitals/pathology groups/faculty select which candidates to interview. I'm sure there are academic-type jobs that would've turned me down and offered positions to candidates who wouldn't have a shot at the private practice groups I interviewed with.

To relate to the job market and my views on it, here are a few thoughts. First, I wanted to mention that I was geographically flexible meaning if the only job I got was in Wyoming, I would've made the move out there, but wouldn't have looked forward to going to rodeos. The job I ended up taking was actually an advertised one, just when I was beginning to think that trying to land one of those are like playing the lottery. The pathologist in the group I'm now a part of told me that he had a stack of about 60-70 CVs and the physician recruiter for the hospital said she would get about two e-mails/phone calls per day inquiring about the position. This sentiment was echoed with other advertised positions I found out when casually asking the recruiter or pathologist how many people applied for the given position. It's fair to say that advertised jobs can get as many as 50-100 applications from what I experienced. Based on this, I would say the job market is not strong simply because if it was, the demand would be outpacing the supply. This would be evident if: a) physician recruiters were actively pursuing pathologists across the country to get them to come to their hospitals like they are for primary care physicians, urologists, and orthopedic surgeons b) pathology graduates could cherry-pick major metropolitan areas throughout the U.S. and find multiple openings c) jobs that are in b.f.e. or flat-out look crappy based on what's advertised would not get 50+ CVs sent to them. This is not what I observed. To further support this, during my search I also spoke with physician recruiters who recruited pathologists plus other fields in medicine. They would always talk to their recruiting colleagues for other specialties with the same company, and they said that pathology has some of the fewest job openings available amongst all practitioners on a monthly basis. I'm not trying to negative; just chipping my two cents from what I went through and trying to keep it one hundred…

That being said, just because the job market isn't strong doesn't mean it's impossible. I think that if one looks thoroughly and is flexible there are positions that will be offered. Obviously the good candidates that constitute the "haves" vs the "have-nots" will have an edge i.e. good communication skills, coming from a well-known program, board-certified, subspecialty training useful to the practice, prior experience (if not a new grad), no red-flags (job-hopping, questionable references, personality issues). Plus, out of the many applicants to the advertised jobs, probably half or so are ones who for whatever reason are not in a stable position or they're in-and-out of the job market periodically and; therefore, shotgunning any and every opportunity they hear of. So for recent graduates with a "normal" resume, they're starting off ahead of a significant percentage already.

Having said all that, I'm glad this is over. I would say the first job in one's career is the toughest because we're all coming in with no experience regardless of our training and that only comes with time. Also, we are on a clock to find a position because residency/fellowship ends on June 30. Whereas once you have a job, you're not on a deadline to find your next place of employment (should you desire to move on). And if nothing is working out or appealing at the moment, you can continue working at your current position until a good opportunity becomes available. So far, the job I'm at is what I've expected and pretty much what I envisioned seeing myself doing when I got into this field. All-in-all I'd say things worked out just fine, but down the road, only time will tell…best of luck to everyone in their search.

Prospective students should read what I bolded. This is important to know and is information received from a recruiter. I have noticed this in job sites as well.

 

[2121115]

I’m bumping this thread as it is a much delayed post which I meant to add to some time ago but didn’t have a chance. However, I wanted to contribute as this was useful while I was going through the job search this past year. I was on the verge of doing a second fellowship because nothing looked like it was going to pan-out, but ended up getting a job offer at the last minute (mid June) which I accepted and thus backed out of the fellowship (before I was supposed to start, not during). I just began in October and wanted to make sure everything was finalized before sharing my experience, plus it’s been a busy time for me moving to a new area and starting a job. Anyway here’s my stats:

Estimated CVs sent out: >50 These were sent to open positions that were advertised, via physician recruitment agencies, from cold-calls, through word-of-mouth, and even unadvertised in geographically desirable areas that I was hoping to get a bite.

Total interviews completed: 5 (3 phone, 2 in person)

Remaining interviews: 0 (my search ended 5 months ago)

Number of job offers: 2

Practice setting: Private practice/community hospitals (3 person group)

Partnership track: Yes (3 yrs to partnership)

Reason for opening: Expansion (The group acquired a new hospital because the previous pathologist there died)

Location: Small town in the mid-Atlantic/Northeast (The other job offer was in one of the top 25 largest cities in the country, but the small town job was still within 1.5 hrs of that city and had better salary/perks)

Residency training: AP/CP (not a big-name program that some elitists on here would want to see get axed)

Fellowship: Straight surg path, homey (big program)

Board certification: Nope

State medical license: Not at the time of applying, but now obtained

Fellowship program stats: 11 fellows total
4 got jobs
3 pursued another fellowship
2 had to finish residency (they did a fellowship instead
of PGY-4)
2 unaccounted for

I think everyone should be aware of their respective qualifications and how it may suit the type of job positions they are looking for. In my case for instance, I didn’t have boku research/publications nor did I come from a big name residency program so academic-type positions weren’t really ideal for me. Lack of board-certification probably didn’t help either, but some places are ok with that if you are just out of training as in my case. However, if you have been in practice 5+ years and are still not board-certified, you might have some explaining to do. Also, I had no experience (but we all gotta start somewhere, right?) and I didn’t have subspecialty training. Sometimes it seems there’s no rhyme or reason with how hospitals/pathology groups/faculty select which candidates to interview. I’m sure there are academic-type jobs that would’ve turned me down and offered positions to candidates who wouldn’t have a shot at the private practice groups I interviewed with.

To relate to the job market and my views on it, here are a few thoughts. First, I wanted to mention that I was geographically flexible meaning if the only job I got was in Wyoming, I would’ve made the move out there, but wouldn’t have looked forward to going to rodeos. The job I ended up taking was actually an advertised one, just when I was beginning to think that trying to land one of those are like playing the lottery. The pathologist in the group I’m now a part of told me that he had a stack of about 60-70 CVs and the physician recruiter for the hospital said she would get about two e-mails/phone calls per day inquiring about the position. This sentiment was echoed with other advertised positions I found out when casually asking the recruiter or pathologist how many people applied for the given position. It’s fair to say that advertised jobs can get as many as 50-100 applications from what I experienced. Based on this, I would say the job market is not strong simply because if it was, the demand would be outpacing the supply. This would be evident if: a) physician recruiters were actively pursuing pathologists across the country to get them to come to their hospitals like they are for primary care physicians, urologists, and orthopedic surgeons b) pathology graduates could cherry-pick major metropolitan areas throughout the U.S. and find multiple openings c) jobs that are in b.f.e. or flat-out look crappy based on what’s advertised would not get 50+ CVs sent to them. This is not what I observed. To further support this, during my search I also spoke with physician recruiters who recruited pathologists plus other fields in medicine. They would always talk to their recruiting colleagues for other specialties with the same company, and they said that pathology has some of the fewest job openings available amongst all practitioners on a monthly basis. I’m not trying to negative; just chipping my two cents from what I went through and trying to keep it one hundred…

That being said, just because the job market isn’t strong doesn’t mean it’s impossible. I think that if one looks thoroughly and is flexible there are positions that will be offered. Obviously the good candidates that constitute the “haves” vs the “have-nots” will have an edge i.e. good communication skills, coming from a well-known program, board-certified, subspecialty training useful to the practice, prior experience (if not a new grad), no red-flags (job-hopping, questionable references, personality issues). Plus, out of the many applicants to the advertised jobs, probably half or so are ones who for whatever reason are not in a stable position or they’re in-and-out of the job market periodically and; therefore, shotgunning any and every opportunity they hear of. So for recent graduates with a “normal” resume, they’re starting off ahead of a significant percentage already.

Having said all that, I’m glad this is over. I would say the first job in one’s career is the toughest because we’re all coming in with no experience regardless of our training and that only comes with time. Also, we are on a clock to find a position because residency/fellowship ends on June 30. Whereas once you have a job, you’re not on a deadline to find your next place of employment (should you desire to move on). And if nothing is working out or appealing at the moment, you can continue working at your current position until a good opportunity becomes available. So far, the job I’m at is what I’ve expected and pretty much what I envisioned seeing myself doing when I got into this field. All-in-all I’d say things worked out just fine, but down the road, only time will tell…best of luck to everyone in their search.

Good post. Thank you for providing some honest and helpful information.

Why do you think you got noticed out of 100 CV's/applicants that the practice had to sort through? Any advice on what made you stand out or why they selected you?

 

[rollwithit]

Thanks for the candid post.

I know you acknowledged that you weren't geographically restricted, but were your applications targeted to where you wanted to live for the "first pass". I might have missed that part...

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Prospective students should read what I bolded. This is important to know and is information received from a recruiter. I have noticed this in job sites as well.

All the pathology jobs I have ever taken weren't posted. The majority of jobs are attained through networking. Better make as many friends as you can. You will be glad you did cause they will save your ass someday.

 

[Path or bust]

All the pathology jobs I have ever taken weren't posted. The majority of jobs are attained through networking. Better make as many friends as you can. You will be glad you did cause they will save your ass someday.

Agree completely.

 

[MetroPath]

Agree completely.

If you look at pathoutlines, there really arent that many jobs and pathoutlines is supp to be one of the main sites for jobs. Can you imagine all the grads looking at this site and applying for these jobs? Most of the jobs have been academic positions, if that is your cup of tea.

 

[Johnny Sunshine]

The group acquired a new hospital because the previous pathologist there died.

And this is a major part of the problem. In contrast to a surgeon or ER doc, if they aren't pushed out by politics or mental decline pathologists often just keep practicing until they're found dead in their office.

 

[Entgegen]

And this is a major part of the problem. In contrast to a surgeon or ER doc, if they aren't pushed out by politics or mental decline pathologists often just keep practicing until they're found dead in their office.

As a med student, I did a rotation at a program with one attending who could only get from his vehicle to his office with a motorized wheelchair, and once in house, he could only get around (SLOWLY) with a walker. That man was ancient.

 

[veo1]

Prospective students should read what I bolded. This is important to know and is information received from a recruiter. I have noticed this in job sites as well.

KeratinP, weren't you just on a previous thread knocking ppl for complaining about the crummy job market and acusing people of lying?

 

[Path or bust]

KeratinP, weren't you just on a previous thread knocking ppl for complaining about the crummy job market and acusing people of lying?

I'm glad I'm not the only that noticed this.

 

[coroner]

...Why do you think you got noticed out of 100 CV's/applicants that the practice had to sort through? Any advice on what made you stand out or why they selected you?

Good question. I had previously browsed the hospital's website and looked up the pathologists in the group I wanted to join and saw that they coincidentally went to med school and/or did residency from where I was in fellowship at the time (although this was 20-30 years prior). When I applied for the job, the physician recruiter for the hospital did the screening for the group and was pretty terse over the phone, understandably so as I'm sure she had many inquiries about the position. So when I talked to her, I asked if she could tell the group that I sent my CV and would like to speak with them in regards to the available position when they get a chance and I'm calling from "______ University". A few weeks later I got a call from the group. I'm not sure if that was my "in" because the pathologists in the group trained so long ago at my institution, that most if not all of the faculty they interacted with were gone when I was there, but I'm sure it didn't hurt.

The other position that I was offered was through word of mouth. It was unadvertised and in a big city that had two pathology residency programs (one which was very large), so private groups in that city had a pretty steady supply of fresh grads who wanted to stay in the area when it came time to looking for jobs. Therefore, this group did not have to advertise. That being said, there were about five people who they interviewed and the head of the group said they also had inquiries from a couple of fellows who just completed residency from the local programs and then went away for fellowship, but requested if the position could be held in place for them the following July (one year later) which the group wasn't interested in doing.

The only other thing I'd mention is I started my search just after the new year (late January), and considering this didn't really materialize till the witching hour (mid June), I would definitely recommend to start the job hunt by Fall of your fellowship year. This would allow finding out about more possible opportunities as well as lining up something sooner rather than later and hopefully making the process less stressful.

 

[Euchromatin]

Good post. Thank you for providing some honest and helpful information.

Why do you think you got noticed out of 100 CV's/applicants that the practice had to sort through? Any advice on what made you stand out or why they selected you?

I thought the point that yaah made in one of the other threads should be re-stated here. I'm not exactly sure what specific criteria this group listed when they advertised the job, but is very likely that the vast majority of those spamming the group with CVs did not meet those criteria (i.e. having whatever fellowship training and/or experience requested) and were probably not considered for the position at all.

This isn't meant to downplay the helpful advice that atnag posted in response to your question, just to bring up the possibility that out of the 50-100 applications they received, there were likely only a handful that met their criteria and were serious contenders.

 

[Humpy]

deleted

 

[Hammer1]

Just for the up comming pathology resident. Please make sure that the program is good and the environment is professional before submitting match list. There are few programs which are notorious for firing their faculty, fellows and residents like Baylor college of medicine in Houston. Houston has great pathology residency programs like UT Houston and also the Methodist hospital system. Please look at the history of the program and ask question during interviews that did they fire any resident, fellow or faculty in the past. It is very important that the place where you will be working should be friendly and professional. I used this tip and I am fortunate enough to have a very awesome program. Best Luck

 

[NuckingFuts]

deleted

Why'd you delete your post regarding your fantastic job where you're getting paid "well north of 300k" in some resort town?

 

[Humpy]

Sounded too much like bragging and I prefer to lurk in the shadow of anonymity.

 

[NuckingFuts]

Sounded too much like bragging and I prefer to lurk in the shadow of anonymity.

Sure did sound like bragging, but facts are facts, and assuming your story isn't fallacious, this forum could sure use a few happy endings.

Pun intended.

 

[gbwillner]

Just for the up comming pathology resident. Please make sure that the program is good and the environment is professional before submitting match list. There are few programs which are notorious for firing their faculty, fellows and residents like Baylor college of medicine in Houston. Houston has great pathology residency programs like UT Houston and also the Methodist hospital system. Please look at the history of the program and ask question during interviews that did they fire any resident, fellow or faculty in the past. It is very important that the place where you will be working should be friendly and professional. I used this tip and I am fortunate enough to have a very awesome program. Best Luck

WTF?

I call bullsh*t. And why are you posting this in the jobs forum? Baylor has a good reputation and history.

 

[kramerbarthomer]

Just for the up comming pathology resident. Please make sure that the program is good and the environment is professional before submitting match list. There are few programs which are notorious for firing their faculty, fellows and residents like Baylor college of medicine in Houston. Houston has great pathology residency programs like UT Houston and also the Methodist hospital system. Please look at the history of the program and ask question during interviews that did they fire any resident, fellow or faculty in the past. It is very important that the place where you will be working should be friendly and professional. I used this tip and I am fortunate enough to have a very awesome program. Best Luck

Agreed. This is definitely BS. I know the resident at Baylor who was fired and he was fired for a very good reason, mainly that he was incompetent, skipped work, could not handle taking AP or CP call properly, and a plethora of other reasons. He was a bad apple in a very good program with excellent faculty. My guess is the person posting this is probably the resident that got fired, because he has done this several times in multiple different forums here under multiple different usernames.

 

[gbwillner]

Why is it that every year there is some cracked-out/schizophrenic path resident who sucks and loses his job, and then spams the internet with crazy accusations and fake doctor reviews of the program director?

Maybe there should be a psych eval for all applicants.

 

[yaah]

Agreed. This is definitely BS. I know the resident at Baylor who was fired and he was fired for a very good reason, mainly that he was incompetent, skipped work, could not handle taking AP or CP call properly, and a plethora of other reasons. He was a bad apple in a very good program with excellent faculty. My guess is the person posting this is probably the resident that got fired, because he has done this several times in multiple different forums here under multiple different usernames.

Personally, I would give a lot of credit to a program that actually has the guts to fire an incompetent resident. I have seen too many actually graduate.