Patient lawsuits

Started by satori47
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satori47

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What kind of impact does a lawsuit filed by a patient have on doctors? Now I obviously cannot talk about the case, but I believe it is being filed for negligence due to a bad outcome (which I do not think negligence is the case here; and which I am one of many defendants). But regardless of what I think, I was an intern while taking care of this patient, I am just wondering what is the worst that can happen if the plaintiff somehow won this case? (I AM covered under the malpractice insurance under my program).

Thanks
 
The psychological impact is HUGE. Physicians have been known to commit suicide over being sued and losing the case. And don't discount the stress it causes even if you believe the suit to be without merit.

You will have to mention it every time you apply for hospital privileges, insurance credentialing and it will be a matter of public record if you lose. But in terms of work, unless negligence was shown, your license will not suffer (and even then, its usually a slap on the wrist from the state board).
 
What kind of impact does a lawsuit filed by a patient have on doctors? Now I obviously cannot talk about the case, but I believe it is being filed for negligence due to a bad outcome (which I do not think negligence is the case here; and which I am one of many defendants). But regardless of what I think, I was an intern while taking care of this patient, I am just wondering what is the worst that can happen if the plaintiff somehow won this case? (I AM covered under the malpractice insurance under my program).

Thanks

If the allegation is negligence, the worst that can happen is the plaintiff wins a judgment in an award higher than your coverage, so you could be personally liable for the excess (rare), and that the matter will be reviewed by the licensing board (which could consider professional sanctions if the action is way out of line with the standard of care). There are also a variety of lists that keep track of how often doctors are sued on which your name may be placed -- some patients look at these things before selecting a physician.
 
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You need to get your own attorney one who knows about medmal and licensing. If the hospital has supplied an attorney, that person does not represent you. The malpractice insurance contract which covers the hospital and you delineates how defense cost are covered. This may not seem like a big deal, but it is.

Ed
 
r.e. the last comment
This person is a RESIDENT. How is he/she going to get the money for a lawyer with a resident salary? I'm not sure I think that's reasonable.

If the OP is in an area like ob/gyn or certain surgical fields, isn't it kind of par for the course to get sued at some point? He/she might likely even get dropped from the lawsuit at some point. I know this sucks, but is getting his/her own lawyer actually going to do anything to improve this situation? I know several ob/gyn residents who were already deposed while in residency, etc. (not sure if they were actually named in the lawsuit, but am assuming so) and I don't think they all went out and got lawyers, and they are all practicing and didn't have trouble getting a license.
 
some patients look at these things before selecting a physician.

and this is a very good thing since these are the kinds of patients that you will not want to have anyway. Lucky for you, they can drive some other poor doc nuts instead.
 
and this is a very good thing since these are the kinds of patients that you will not want to have anyway. Lucky for you, they can drive some other poor doc nuts instead.

😕 Why? Granted I'm not going to check out every doctor I see for whatever minor thing, but for example when my wife and I were in a new city in the planning stages of starting a family why in the world would we not do a little research on potential OB/Gyns?
 
😕 Why? Granted I'm not going to check out every doctor I see for whatever minor thing, but for example when my wife and I were in a new city in the planning stages of starting a family why in the world would we not do a little research on potential OB/Gyns?

Because the presumption is (not necessarily yours) that a physician who has been sued, even successfully, is a bad doctor. When over 90% of general surgeons will be sued in their lifetime, not everyone can be incompetent but there is that perception in the public's eye.

Secondly, patients who tend to look this stuff up also tend to be the ones who sue you.
 
To give you an idea of how it impacts physicians...

I tell non-medical folks all the time - the moment the lawsuit is filed, the physician has already lost.

Yes, and no. "You can be sued for eating a ham sandwich", a well-known quip to lawyers. Any doctor can get sued at any time from any patient - and that fact is "built in" to the practice of medicine.

When perusing medical malpractice cases, it's very clear : if the doctor IS NOT AT FAULT, he will win the case, if the doctor IS AT FAULT, he will lose the case.
 
since there is such a shortage of doctors, even if you have been sued before, no one will care and there are plenty of jobs for you.

hire a lawyer for yourself for sure. if you are the resident, rarely anything will happen to you.
 
since there is such a shortage of doctors, even if you have been sued before, no one will care and there are plenty of jobs for you.

hire a lawyer for yourself for sure. if you are the resident, rarely anything will happen to you.

ive been credentialed at a number of facilitites.. being sued is a bad thing even if you win. you have to mention it everywhere you go. i mean everywhere. licensing, credentialing, certification renewals. you have to present legal papers, court documents, a board has to sit and review all of these documents before any decision is made.. you have to make personal appearances to explain away about what happened. Just a major pain in the ass. I dont know that personally but everywhere i try to get credentialed the first thing they ask me is if i have any malpractice cases pending. and the second thing is if im board certified. this is before they ask me my name.


get a lawyer for yourself. I know you are aresident, but borrow the money to have someone represent your interests.
 
ive been credentialed at a number of facilitites.. being sued is a bad thing even if you win. you have to mention it everywhere you go. i mean everywhere. licensing, credentialing, certification renewals. you have to present legal papers, court documents, a board has to sit and review all of these documents before any decision is made.. you have to make personal appearances to explain away about what happened. Just a major pain in the ass. I dont know that personally but everywhere i try to get credentialed the first thing they ask me is if i have any malpractice cases pending. and the second thing is if im board certified. this is before they ask me my name.


get a lawyer for yourself. I know you are aresident, but borrow the money to have someone represent your interests.

for sure.

the point i am making is that being sued today is commonplace and is not that big of a deal, although definitely a pain in the ass.
 
for sure.

the point i am making is that being sued today is commonplace and is not that big of a deal, although definitely a pain in the ass.

Oh, it is a big deal. Even if you get it thrown out as frivolous it is going to cost you a lot of time and money.

A friend of mine was sued a decade ago. He prescribed a med for a patient, the patient's father took it and had an adverse reaction and sued my friend. My friend paid over $10k to get it thrown out and experienced a lot of stress.
 
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ive been credentialed at a number of facilitites.. being sued is a bad thing even if you win. you have to mention it everywhere you go. i mean everywhere. licensing, credentialing, certification renewals. you have to present legal papers, court documents, a board has to sit and review all of these documents before any decision is made.. you have to make personal appearances to explain away about what happened. Just a major pain in the ass. I dont know that personally but everywhere i try to get credentialed the first thing they ask me is if i have any malpractice cases pending. and the second thing is if im board certified. this is before they ask me my name.


get a lawyer for yourself. I know you are aresident, but borrow the money to have someone represent your interests.

Funny you brought this up because a friend once told me one of the people on the board reviewing his application had a pending lawsuit against him. Gone are the days when fellow physicians looked down on a doctor when he/she got sued, especially since doctors are beginning to understand the random nature of these lawsuits. I read legal literature on medmal in my spare time, and if there is one thing I have noticed, it is the fact that a doctor can get sued for anything, by anyone, at anytime. You can get sued for acting too fast, too slow, not acting, acting at all, being at work when it happened, not being at work when it happened. The whole "standard of care" thing is just an illusion when it comes to medmal. When a doctor gets sued, the standard of care is redefined by the courts as it pertains to that doctor and that case. Hell, there is a case in court right now where the doc is being sued for changing his office hours. Each time one of these outrageous lawsuits is won, the number of potential physician defendants jumps up a significant amount. Soon doctors will be just as acquainted with the courts as they are with the hospitals.
 
Yes, and no. "You can be sued for eating a ham sandwich", a well-known quip to lawyers. Any doctor can get sued at any time from any patient - and that fact is "built in" to the practice of medicine.

When perusing medical malpractice cases, it's very clear : if the doctor IS NOT AT FAULT, he will win the case, if the doctor IS AT FAULT, he will lose the case.
I can't disagree with this strongly enough. I have seen too many good docs get screwed by losing to plaintiffs on cases where nothing was done wrong. I've seen several cases where the only "error" was in not documenting carefully enough.

It doesn't matter if you did everything right. If you get a sympathetic plaintiff you're hosed. They are perfectly willing to spend your money because it will make them feel better.

Don't be fooled. Nothing good can come of getting sued. The best possible outcome you can hope for is a dismissal before you lose tons of time and money.
 
Oh, it is a big deal. Even if you get it thrown out as frivolous it is going to cost you a lot of time and money.

A friend of mine was sued a decade ago. He prescribed a med for a patient, the patient's father took it and had an adverse reaction and sued my friend. My friend paid over $10k to get it thrown out and experienced a lot of stress.

Dear God are the lawyers that blood thirsty. Shame, such a litigious society we live in.
 
I have seen too many good docs get screwed by losing to plaintiffs on cases where nothing was done wrong. I've seen several cases where the only "error" was in not documenting carefully enough.

Site a specific case, I would like to review it. From what I have seen, a judge will NOT allow a conviction to stand on a charge that has not been proven to have happened.

Getting sued is one thing, losing the case is another. I do not allow the prospect of being sued determine my direct patient treatment - but, I do dot the i's and cross the t's to such an extent that there is a substantial record of "what was done".

Here in Texas there has been a revolution concerning this subject. Thankfully, due to a pretrial review almost all frivolous charges get thrown out before making to trial.

http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicin...Became-a-Model-for-Healthcare-Reform-29584-1/
 
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Site a specific case, I would like to review it. From what I have seen, a judge will NOT allow a conviction to stand on a charge that has not been proven to have happened.

Getting sued is one thing, losing the case is another. I do not allow the prospect of being sued determine my direct patient treatment - but, I do dot the i's and cross the t's to such an extent that there is a substantial record of "what was done".

Here in Texas there has been a revolution concerning this subject. Thankfully, due to a pretrial review almost all frivolous charges get thrown out before making to trial.

http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicin...Became-a-Model-for-Healthcare-Reform-29584-1/

Just a point in terminology -- a "conviction" is only relevant in a criminal case, not civil. Medmal cases are civil. The word you are looking for is judgment. As I've discussed on other threads, the phrase "frivolous" gets thrown around a lot on SDN, but in fact very very few cases are frivolous in the legal sense of the term, and severe sanctions get placed on lawyers who actually bring frivolous cases. Most of the cases folks on here complain about aren't frivolous, just cases in which the plaintiff does not prevail. A study was done at Harvard Med a few years back which looked at the issue and demonstrated that in fact the percentage of cases that were brought to trial that were truly groundless was very nominal, and in a lot of cases, even where the plaintiff's did not prevail, there was some question of a deviation from the standard of care. The solution, as mentioned in Gawande's Complications book is for physicians to improve safeguards so fewer mistakes get made, not to whine about getting sued when mistakes get made.
The jury is still out on the Texas reforms -- it was good for doctors, but probably not good for society, because honestly the laws were set up for the people who were actually harmed, and forced to live with pain/injury/deformity due to the negligence of others. It happens. The standard of care gets deviated from. We've all seen it -- someone doesn't pay attention to an aberrant lab value, or knicks an internal organ, or brushes aside some reported symptom they should have thought longer about. Mistakes happen - doctors are only human. And when they do, they are the one who should bear the cost. That's the American way. (But apparently not the Texan way...).
 
The jury is still out on the Texas reforms -- it was good for doctors, but probably not good for society, because honestly the laws were set up for the people who were actually harmed, and forced to live with pain/injury/deformity due to the negligence of others. It happens.

Mistakes happen - doctors are only human. And when they do, they are the one who should bear the cost. That's the American way. (But apparently not the Texan way...).

The point is that real frivolous cases, and you know the difference counselor, don't get to trial. For those who are actually harmed, they get their time in court. Limiting damages to that which resembles "actual" harm works.

Mistakes happen, the consequences of which can be addressed in court; but the abuse of the system is what has been curtailed.

And as far as: "That's the American way. (But apparently not the Texan way...)". Feel free to learn from us as you choose...
 
Just a point in terminology -- a "conviction" is only relevant in a criminal case, not civil. Medmal cases are civil. The word you are looking for is judgment. As I've discussed on other threads, the phrase "frivolous" gets thrown around a lot on SDN, but in fact very very few cases are frivolous in the legal sense of the term, and severe sanctions get placed on lawyers who actually bring frivolous cases. Most of the cases folks on here complain about aren't frivolous, just cases in which the plaintiff does not prevail. A study was done at Harvard Med a few years back which looked at the issue and demonstrated that in fact the percentage of cases that were brought to trial that were truly groundless was very nominal, and in a lot of cases, even where the plaintiff's did not prevail, there was some question of a deviation from the standard of care. The solution, as mentioned in Gawande's Complications book is for physicians to improve safeguards so fewer mistakes get made, not to whine about getting sued when mistakes get made.
The jury is still out on the Texas reforms -- it was good for doctors, but probably not good for society, because honestly the laws were set up for the people who were actually harmed, and forced to live with pain/injury/deformity due to the negligence of others. It happens. The standard of care gets deviated from. We've all seen it -- someone doesn't pay attention to an aberrant lab value, or knicks an internal organ, or brushes aside some reported symptom they should have thought longer about. Mistakes happen - doctors are only human. And when they do, they are the one who should bear the cost. That's the American way. (But apparently not the Texan way...).

No one would be complaining if the only lawsuits out there were the ones that involved mistakes. There are a lot of outrageous lawsuits out there costing money and time to get thrown out, some even go to trial clogging the system. Texas did what they had to do and more states might follow if the abuse continues.
 
Funny you brought this up because a friend once told me one of the people on the board reviewing his application had a pending lawsuit against him. Gone are the days when fellow physicians looked down on a doctor when he/she got sued, especially since doctors are beginning to understand the random nature of these lawsuits. I read legal literature on medmal in my spare time, and if there is one thing I have noticed, it is the fact that a doctor can get sued for anything, by anyone, at anytime. You can get sued for acting too fast, too slow, not acting, acting at all, being at work when it happened, not being at work when it happened. The whole “standard of care” thing is just an illusion when it comes to medmal. When a doctor gets sued, the standard of care is redefined by the courts as it pertains to that doctor and that case. Hell, there is a case in court right now where the doc is being sued for changing his office hours. Each time one of these outrageous lawsuits is won, the number of potential physician defendants jumps up a significant amount. Soon doctors will be just as acquainted with the courts as they are with the hospitals.

This is my point.

While I understand that lawsuits are a big PITA and cost money, I am making the point that since lawsuits are so commonplace that pretty much every doctor will get sued at least once in his career, it really isn't that big of a deal.
 
r.e. the last comment
This person is a RESIDENT. How is he/she going to get the money for a lawyer with a resident salary? I'm not sure I think that's reasonable.

Doesn't matter. Seriously.

If you are sued, you need someone that is representing your interests and not the insurance company or the hospital. The hospital/insurance company attorney won't throw you under a bus, but you are not their main concern.

Yeah, it is going to cost the original poster a few grand...and it is worth it.
If that money stops a lawsuit against and keeps him out of the National Practitioner Data Bank, it will be well worth it to avoid future hassles. You do have to get someone who understands that their role is to ride shotgun and not litigate the case, however.

This is a very appropriate time to tap credit cards, home equity loans, family members, etc.
 
No one would be complaining if the only lawsuits out there were the ones that involved mistakes. There are a lot of outrageous lawsuits out there costing money and time to get thrown out, some even go to trial clogging the system. Texas did what they had to do and more states might follow if the abuse continues.

The outrageous lawsuits represent a microscopically small minority of all cases. You just hear about them more because they are so outrageous. They make good news. But they aren't representative of 99% of the medical malpractice cases. In those few cases, lawyers often do get sanctioned, and the cases, as mentioned above, rarely get to trial because most states require a medical expert opinion from a licensed physician for such cases to get off the ground. If those outrageous lawsuits were costing the system real money I would agree with you, but we are talking a minute drop in a very big bucket (litigation), and this was exactly what the Harvard study a few years back looked at. They determined that, in fact, there haven't been "a lot" of this kind of case, nor do they contribute significantly to litigation/insurance costs of the system.

These cases are rare -- Hope Diamond rare -- and in most cases what folks on SDN want to call "frivolous" isn't at all -- that's a loaded term that means very different things to folks on SDN than it does under the law. The term frivolous should not be applied to a case where the plaintiff loses, but he was able to find a physician who agreed that the standard of care was deviated from and that negligence, however slight, contributed to injury. And that's the kind of cases that end up making insurance so expensive, because no judge is going to supplant his level of medical knowledge over that of a so-called "expert" with a medical license, and so those cases get heard. Thus the real problem in med-mal is the shill physicians who lend themselves out to the more questionable (yet not frivolous) cases, because those "opinions" are what ends up costing the system. Without them, these cases don't get brought. And THAT is what could save the system a lot of time and money. And again, these cases aren't frivolous because an expert physician opinion has been given that the standard of care was deviated from. So this isn't a plaintiff of a lawyer or a judge bringing an absurd claim -- it is the system working as it's supposed to -- giving credence to a physician as to what the medical standard of care actually is. Hence not even close to frivolous by any legal definition.

You don't fix this by capping awards on legitimate claims where patients are actually injured. You fix it by circling the wagons and stopping doctors from giving opinions that run afield of their knowledge base or are designed to get them a better expert fee. Because, again, without their signature on an opinion, these cases never get off the ground or even filed.
 
I agree with Law2Doc the number of lawsuits where the case is truly and completely without merit are rare.

Here's an example. 31 year old woman comes into her PCP complaining of a breast mass. He finds it, it's small, nothing too particularly worrisome about feeling it. He tells her "Well, let's see how it changes with your next menstrual cycle before we do anything" wanting to save this woman the expense of an ultrasound (she has no insurance) if it goes away and knowing the odds are smaller that this is a malignancy in a younger woman with no family history of early breast cancer.

Now, imagine that ends up being breast cancer. The delay in obtaining imaging and a biopsy aren't going to look like appropriate watchful waiting and cost cutting, it's going to look like a doctor who "doesn't give a damn" and there would be people who would want to hand out a cash reward.

And you can't dismiss it as without merit because you really need to examine the scenario. Did the doctor ask all the right questions, tell the patient to return the next month and arrange appropriate follow up?
 
The outrageous lawsuits represent a microscopically small minority of all cases. You just hear about them more because they are so outrageous. They make good news. But they aren't representative of 99% of the medical malpractice cases. In those few cases, lawyers often do get sanctioned, and the cases, as mentioned above, rarely get to trial because most states require a medical expert opinion from a licensed physician for such cases to get off the ground. If those outrageous lawsuits were costing the system real money I would agree with you, but we are talking a minute drop in a very big bucket (litigation), and this was exactly what the Harvard study a few years back looked at. They determined that, in fact, there haven't been "a lot" of this kind of case, nor do they contribute significantly to litigation/insurance costs of the system.

These cases are rare -- Hope Diamond rare -- and in most cases what folks on SDN want to call "frivolous" isn't at all -- that's a loaded term that means very different things to folks on SDN than it does under the law. The term frivolous should not be applied to a case where the plaintiff loses, but he was able to find a physician who agreed that the standard of care was deviated from and that negligence, however slight, contributed to injury. And that's the kind of cases that end up making insurance so expensive, because no judge is going to supplant his level of medical knowledge over that of a so-called "expert" with a medical license, and so those cases get heard. Thus the real problem in med-mal is the shill physicians who lend themselves out to the more questionable (yet not frivolous) cases, because those "opinions" are what ends up costing the system. Without them, these cases don't get brought. And THAT is what could save the system a lot of time and money. And again, these cases aren't frivolous because an expert physician opinion has been given that the standard of care was deviated from. So this isn't a plaintiff of a lawyer or a judge bringing an absurd claim -- it is the system working as it's supposed to -- giving credence to a physician as to what the medical standard of care actually is. Hence not even close to frivolous by any legal definition.

You don't fix this by capping awards on legitimate claims where patients are actually injured. You fix it by circling the wagons and stopping doctors from giving opinions that run afield of their knowledge base or are designed to get them a better expert fee. Because, again, without their signature on an opinion, these cases never get off the ground or even filed.

This is 100% true too.
 
Yes, and no. "You can be sued for eating a ham sandwich", a well-known quip to lawyers. Any doctor can get sued at any time from any patient - and that fact is "built in" to the practice of medicine.

When perusing medical malpractice cases, it's very clear : if the doctor IS NOT AT FAULT, he will win the case, if the doctor IS AT FAULT, he will lose the case.

I think you're missing my point, which isn't that suprising since I didn't elaborate very much.

Sure, if the doctor isn't at fault, then he will likely win the case. My point is that the mere process of going through the lawsuit is so damaging to the physician personally, professionally, and financially that it doesn't really matter very much. If the doctor gets sued at all, then he or she has already lost so much. A victory in the case will allow the doctor to continue practicing, but at what cost to the physician's practice, confidence, and personal life?
 
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The outrageous lawsuits represent a microscopically small minority of all cases. You just hear about them more because they are so outrageous. They make good news. But they aren't representative of 99% of the medical malpractice cases. In those few cases, lawyers often do get sanctioned, and the cases, as mentioned above, rarely get to trial because most states require a medical expert opinion from a licensed physician for such cases to get off the ground. If those outrageous lawsuits were costing the system real money I would agree with you, but we are talking a minute drop in a very big bucket (litigation), and this was exactly what the Harvard study a few years back looked at. They determined that, in fact, there haven't been "a lot" of this kind of case, nor do they contribute significantly to litigation/insurance costs of the system.

These cases are rare -- Hope Diamond rare -- and in most cases what folks on SDN want to call "frivolous" isn't at all -- that's a loaded term that means very different things to folks on SDN than it does under the law. The term frivolous should not be applied to a case where the plaintiff loses, but he was able to find a physician who agreed that the standard of care was deviated from and that negligence, however slight, contributed to injury. And that's the kind of cases that end up making insurance so expensive, because no judge is going to supplant his level of medical knowledge over that of a so-called "expert" with a medical license, and so those cases get heard. Thus the real problem in med-mal is the shill physicians who lend themselves out to the more questionable (yet not frivolous) cases, because those "opinions" are what ends up costing the system. Without them, these cases don't get brought. And THAT is what could save the system a lot of time and money. And again, these cases aren't frivolous because an expert physician opinion has been given that the standard of care was deviated from. So this isn't a plaintiff of a lawyer or a judge bringing an absurd claim -- it is the system working as it's supposed to -- giving credence to a physician as to what the medical standard of care actually is. Hence not even close to frivolous by any legal definition.

You don't fix this by capping awards on legitimate claims where patients are actually injured. You fix it by circling the wagons and stopping doctors from giving opinions that run afield of their knowledge base or are designed to get them a better expert fee. Because, again, without their signature on an opinion, these cases never get off the ground or even filed.

I know we've had this disagreement before but I just don't accept this. One of my primary problems is that your definition of "frivolous" is based more on the gravity of the accusation than on the merit of the case.

Obviously no plaintiff's lawyer is going to allege that a bad outcome was due to the doctor's ugly tie or bad breath. Thoses would be thrown out and agreed upon as "frivolous." They will allege the weighty transgressions of willful negligence and gross misconduct and failure to meet the standard of care. Those serious allegations, evidence or not, mean it's not "frivolous" even though anyone can allege anything.

I agree that there's a problem with turncoat docs who act as hired guns for the plaintiffs. However when medicine has tried to "circle the wagons" we have been thwarted by the lawyers because we're playing in their ballpark. For example efforts to apply the standard of professional conduct to expert witnessing with the goal of bringing those guilty of giving misleading testimony before state BOMs such as in FL have been shot down. There have been efforts to publicize the names of "experts" such as the web page maintained by AAEM and those have been treatened into submission.

I say we need to seperate the punishment and compensation components of the system so as to eliminate the jack pot fever mentality. But turkeys think we should do away with Thanksgiving too so what does my opinion matter in all this?
 
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I say we need to seperate the punishment and compensation components of the system so as to eliminate the jack pot fever mentality. But turkeys think we should do away with Thanksgiving too so what does my opinion matter in all this?

Yeah, I think the last sentence is a good example of why tort reform doesn't make sense -- it's a good thing for those detrimented (doctors/turkeys) but doesn't address the folks for whom the law actually exists (the folks legitimately horribly injured through real negligence). Our system in fact works very well and fairly for the folks who are maimed/killed/damaged by negligence. We shift the cost to the negligent actor from the victim, which is appropriate. Tort reform, however, basically throws out these good results to address the bad ones. Which is unfair to the real victims and benefits the truly negligent doctors out there. So it isn't a good fix in a lot of cases. It very truly is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". (Which is fine for doctors, because they don't really care for the baby, here.) But it makes life easier as a doctor/insurance company because you temper bad consequences (whether they are your fault or not) -- you have more leeway to be negligent and the incentive to sue you (whether warranted or not) is going to be less. So it doesn't address the real problems (inappropriate lawsuits or physician negligence) it just puts a cap on the money involved. The real fixes would be aimed at addressing the system to prevent negligence (read Gawande's book Complications which does a nice job of discussing this in a chapter talking about improvements in anesthesia), and the profession taking some responsibility for the expert witnesses out there. They are doctors, acting as doctors when they hold themselves out as medical experts in court. This is the profession's responsibility when its members hold themselves out as spokesman for what is the standard of care. Most other professions reign in their members, and put rules and penalties as to what they can do within the scope of their profession.

Coming from law, I have to tell you I was rather shocked at the lack of rules one needs to comply with before one runs afoul of professional responsibility in medicine. Lawyers have very specific rules of professional conduct that are distributed among the lawyers within each state (usually given out when you take your admission oath) and lawyers are expected to know them and can be censured/sanctioned if they violate them, that would cover actions as a professional including testifying in court. Doctors seem to have none of this. It's not that they cannot or that they have been "thwarted by lawyers". It's that they have never created a universal code of conduct all doctors have to comply with subject to licensing board organization oversight, or else be sanctioned. It just doesn't seem to exist in the medical profession apart from cases of repeated gross negligence and substance abuse. And that's not one doctors can pass off as impossible or someone else's fault. It's a failing of the profession. There should be consequences to testifying to an inaccurate standard of care, or perhaps testifying to a case to which a physician has no nexus. The profession is allowed to do this. Thus far it has kept its hands off the expert witness business. And that's where the system has gone off track. So no, tort reform isn't the answer, lawyers and "frivolous cases" aren't the biggest problem here. This can really be cured in house.
 
tort reform isn't the answer, lawyers and "frivolous cases" aren't the biggest problem here. This can really be cured in house.

OK, you made some good points here, but I don't see why noneconomic damages should not be capped. I agree that caps on judgements/money awarded to plaintiffs should not be the only "fix" we seek for the medmal crisis.

I don't believe you can blame this whole lawsuit mania only or mainly on physician expert witnesses. There are always going to be unscrupulous people in every profession and occupation...that includes attorneys, stock brokers, etc. And not all of them are going to be stopped/thwarted. There are plenty of seedy lawyers still practicing, or marginal ones, just like there are some marginal docs. The professional oversight boards tend to find only the really egregious bad actors.

The medmal crisis needs to be seen in the context of the lawsuit mania that has gripped our entire society. Basically, anyone can sue anyone for just about anything, and whether or not the case has merit it usually ends up costing money, time and a great deal of stress for the person sued. We need reforms, and not just in the area of med mal, but we need an overall fix. It's too easy to sue someone now and there are little or no consequences if you bring a lawsuit that is without merit...and I do think there are probably too many attorneys being produced by law schools and that that probably contributes to this problem. You only have to watch your local TV stations to see the ads for ambulance chasing lawyers trolling for business.

Whether or not a case is dismissed or settled vs. the doc losing, the doc has already lost at the point the lawsuit is filed....the doc has lost reputation in the eyes of the public, and that is just wrong. That is what the attendings above who have posted were trying to point out to you. And I don't believe that in medical malpractice cases that individual physicians are the only ones harmed. I believe the public is harmed by having the costs passed on to them and definitely by having unnecessary tests (sometimes invasive ones) because of docs trying to cover our a--es all the time.
 
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I don't believe you can blame this whole lawsuit mania only or mainly on physician expert witnesses. There are always going to be unscrupulous people in every profession and occupation...that includes attorneys, stock brokers, etc. And not all of them are going to be stopped/thwarted. There are plenty of seedy lawyers still practicing, or marginal ones, just like there are some marginal docs. The professional oversight boards tend to find only the really egregious bad actors....

It's not a question of who to blame. My point is that physicians have the ability to unilaterally "fix" this problem in-house. They choose not to and would rather allow some subset to benefit from expert witness fees while blaming the no-good lawyers for the problems. And sure, there are seedy folks out there ready to bring any suit they can get an expert to sign off on. But to blame the lawyer for a suit that would never get off the ground without a so-called expert's endorsement is selective blame. You fix your own house first and THEN if there's still an issue you can cast blame elsewhere. I see no interest in doctors policing their own. Which is really what's the necessary and reasonable first step here. There's a doctrine in law called "unclean hands" -- you don't get to prevail in an argument if you yourself have unclean hands -- ie that you are an integral part of the problem. And that's really what is going on here. Lawyers do a far better job of self policing than doctors, and in fact the frivolous cases people like to scream about in this thread are pretty minimal as a result -- they just tend to get a lot of press. And in fact many of the lawyers who bring such suits get hit with big money sanctions. If doctors used their professional oversight to do the same this problem would likely not exist.
 
Lawyers do a far better job of self policing than doctors...


Can't wait until you stand in front of your fellow physicians and try that line at some conference. Everyone in the room, including you, will laugh at the hilarity of your joke. 🙄
 
Can't wait until you stand in front of your fellow physicians and try that line at some conference. Everyone in the room, including you, will laugh at the hilarity of your joke. 🙄

I've had this conversation with many physicians, and they are hard pressed to show that physicians do an equivalent job of self policing. Not much laughter, but a lot of folks wondering why doctors don't do comparable things. You can call it a joke if you like, but every state has a board of attorney professional responsibility/board of bar overseers which is quite active, and imposes sanctions, suspensions, censures and disbarments on numerous attorneys on a monthly basis. The rules/code of professional responsibility and canon of legal ethics are expansively spelled out and distributed to all lawyers in the state, and investigations of violators occur quite regularly. It is a very self regulated and self policed profession, and violations are actually quite nominal considering the number of lawyers out there. I've seen nothing like this in the medical profession, and inquiries of physicians by licensing boards tend to be limited to folks committing felonies (especially insurance/medicare fraud), substance abuse issues, and repeat offenders accused of very egregious actions. So you can roll your eyes all you want, but I defy you to show me the professional mechanism of policing physicians that comes close to what is set up in your or any state to police lawyers.

It would be trivially easy to fix. You just come up with a set of rules on physicians serving as experts, and curtail those activities that don't reflect actual standard of care. Violators are made subject to a penalty by the licensing commission. You penalize a few people, and suddenly nobody is willing to step over the line. Lawyers have done this, doctors should too. And once you do, all these borderline cases disappear, because no expert, no case to put before a judge.
 
Sir, the hippocratic oath was just the beginning...

You'll see as you ever more become a doctor, there is no professional community that is more regulated than that of physicians. (Wait until you apply for your DEA number).

And, you are confusing the mechanisms of the self-policing of a group of people who are mostly honest with that of the mechanisms needed for the self-policing of a group that is mostly not honest.
 
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Sir, the hypocratic oath was just the beginning...

You'll see as you ever more become a doctor, there is no professional community that is more regulated than that of physicians. (Wait until you apply for your DEA number). Doctors are public figures.

And, you are confusing the mechanisms of the self-policing of a group of people who are mostly honest with that of the mechanisms needed for the self-policing of a group that is mostly not honest.

Dude, that's pretty lame to cast aspersions against an entire profession, and if that's the best you can do, I'll save this debate for someone with a bit more gray matter. Most people in both law and medicine are honest. In fact I've had the pleasure of working with numerous honest and ethical people in both professions, and they were not exceptions. There are a few bad apples in each, probably very similar numbers by percentage. The difference is that law does a MUCH better job at self policing. Not because they are worse people, but because they have a better focus on outlining and living within a a world of rules. The legal profession is about setting out clear rules in advance (necessitated by the constitutional concept of due process) and following them to the letter -- it's a reflection of the field's view of professional governance -- you create an agreed upon set of ethics and rules, and publish and distribute them, and enforce them, and everybody knows where they stand at all times. It's just a smart way for a profession to conduct itself. And something the physicians could learn a lot from.

I am fully aware of the licensing and DEA regulations of physicians, but honestly show me where physicians have taken the initiative to inhibit certain activities of other physicians that they deem distasteful or damaging to the profession, such as acting as an expert witness. The answer is it doesn't exist. The opposite is true in law -- there have been numerous regulations inhibiting what lawyers can do both in and outside of their practice. Both in terms of conduct and ethics. And sanctions with real teeth to back them up. You can make the naive argument that all lawyers are dishonest, but that's pretty specious. There are tons of doctors who behave badly - the only difference is that they have to go a lot further over the line before any penalties kick in. Which is why I'm saying that doctors can do a lot in-house to fix the current medmal issues. I'm saying this as a future doctor, and one who has been ethical and honest in how I conduct myself in both fields. And for what it's worth, the word is Hippocratic (no "y"). And the Hippocratic oath is a perfect example of a model code of conduct that has no teeth -- a meaningless oath because nobody in the profession holds your feet to the fire. You can swear to do no harm all you want, but if nothing happens to you when you do, then it's a waste of breath.
 
Dude, that's pretty lame to cast aspersions against an entire profession, and if that's the best you can do, I'll save this debate for someone with a bit more gray matter. Most people in both law and medicine are honest.

You can't see the forrest for the trees, Dude. Why all that need for self-policing in law again? Legal ethics, define that for us.

And as far as gray matter, so far I have let you off easy... you are about to become a peer with a large group of very well educated and experienced people who hate lawyers.

Out.
 
... you are about to become a peer with a large group of very well educated and experienced people who hate lawyers.
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Fortunately most of the physicians I know are far more enlightened and don't share your biases. But I don't think your prejudice detracts from my original argument that physicians can and should be doing a much better job of policing themselves and have the ability to make a lot of this litigation go by the wayside. But I think this is the tree that can't be seen through your own forest of loathing. No doubt there is more to this story that has shaped your viewpoints, which I feel are not based on fact as much as emotion. To each his own.
 
guys, could we keep this discussion civil, please?

Lawdoc, I am not trying to impugn lawyers as a group.

I do disagree with your contention that medicine does little to police itself. Perhaps it does little to try to regulate expert witnesses, but you will find there are MANY MANY MANY regulations and roadblocks you will face as you try to enter and stay in practice. You won't believe the mountains of paperwork you have to fill out for each and every medical practice or hospital you are going to practice in. They will ask not just about felonies or drug use, but about your medical history, mental health history, any bad evaluations you have had or remediations during any phase of your training, any gaps at all in your training or education (even of a couple of months), and and all legal proceedings ever filed against you (even if charges or suits were dropped, etc.). They will ask you for multiple peer references who will vouch for you. They will ask you to verify current specialty board certification, ACLS training, and make you document every year of internship and residency you ever did, for every job you ever try to get, and for every state where you want a medical license.

I am not sure your idea of trying to limit what expert witnesses can do/say would work. Perhaps a process could be set up so that one has to be approved by one's specialty society, or at least one's state medical board, to be able to serve as an expert witness (which would keep out the real yahoos most likely) but then we docs would just be setting ourselves up for allegations by the public and attorneys, etc. that we are just trying to manipulate the legal system for our own selfish purposes.
 
I do disagree with your contention that medicine does little to police itself. Perhaps it does little to try to regulate expert witnesses, but you will find there are MANY MANY MANY regulations and roadblocks you will face as you try to enter and stay in practice. You won't believe the mountains of paperwork you have to fill out for each and every medical practice or hospital you are going to practice in. They will ask not just about felonies or drug use, but about your medical history, mental health history, any bad evaluations you have had or remediations during any phase of your training, any gaps at all in your training or education (even of a couple of months), and and all legal proceedings ever filed against you (even if charges or suits were dropped, etc.). They will ask you for multiple peer references who will vouch for you. They will ask you to verify current specialty board certification, ACLS training, and make you document every year of internship and residency you ever did, for every job you ever try to get, and for every state where you want a medical license.

I am not sure your idea of trying to limit what expert witnesses can do/say would work. Perhaps a process could be set up so that one has to be approved by one's specialty society, or at least one's state medical board, to be able to serve as an expert witness (which would keep out the real yahoos most likely) but then we docs would just be setting ourselves up for allegations by the public and attorneys, etc. that we are just trying to manipulate the legal system for our own selfish purposes.

There are two types of regulations. One set is the type of hoops you have to jump through for licensing, accredition and hospital privileges. Another set is the regulating by the profession as to what you can do day to day as a professional. The former the physicians do fine, and that is what you are describing. The latter the physicians have taken a hands off laissez-faire approach (but lawyers do otherwise). You absolutely could make a rule outlining what an expert witness can do within a trial, what kind of nexus a physician should have to a case before they can agree to act as an expert, or penalties for taking outlandish positions or giving questionable reads on "standard of care". A profession is allowed to self govern on these things. Medicine has chosen not to, and the result has been a lot of cases getting to court that shouldn't.
 
I am going to tak this back to the OP...

I also had a lawsuit stemming from an incident as an intern (unfortunately, I was not shot-gunned -- only myself, the attending and the hospital were named). A few learning points from that:

1. It screws with your head. A lot. Studies have shown that the year after a lawsuit doctors are MORE likely to incur another suit. Probably because they hate everybody at that point (I know I did....you mean I am here all night, taking care of your sorry self and you can just turn around a sue me?)

2. Lawsuits come from bad outcomes, which may or may not be related to bad practice.

3. The hospital/insurance lawyer looks out for the hospital and the insurance company. Having said that, my hospital had a reputation for working hard to take residents off of the case. I did not hire my own attorney, but it is not bad advice.

My suit was settled out of court for <5% of the initial asking price (and they were looking for actual damages). Though we can argue what frivolous means, most of the experts involved in this case felt that no wrong had been done. (According to the lawyer, it was easy for us to obtain good experts on this -- the case was fairly straightforward). However, given the potential of a jury jackpot, the hospital was anxious to settle. The fear was that the jury would not understand the nuances of the medical argument and would award large damages to a plaintiff who had, admittedly, a very very sad story.

I don't think it hurts me professionally. Luckily, it was not in the field which I now practice (blah--off service rotations). Even though I was dropped, it still has to be listed on every single thing I apply for. That is a pain in the *****, and seems unfair.
 
It's not a question of who to blame. My point is that physicians have the ability to unilaterally "fix" this problem in-house. They choose not to and would rather allow some subset to benefit from expert witness fees while blaming the no-good lawyers for the problems.
I don't think that it would be as easy as you imply for medicine to suddenly "fix" this problem. You keep talking about reforming medicine to the point where there are no errors, no bad outcomes, no systemic dysfunction. That's just not realistic. And as long as we are being held to this kind of standard, as we are currently by the tort system we will continue to be paranoid about liability and practice defensive medicine.

And Everyone practices defensive medicine. The current "standard of care" is defensive because it has grown up under the thumb of the med mal crisis. Just look at the "standard of care" for chest pain which is to basically admit everyone for an extensive work up. That is totally born out of fear.

I agree that a better system would have more self policing. I would like to see the punishment and compensation functions divorced. Patients would apply to the compensation end for their bad outcomes and the punishment function would be handled by a board that gives out sanctions but doesn't reward the patient (or his lawyer) for making grandiose accusations. But anything will be impossible while we are still under the current system.
 
And Everyone practices defensive medicine. The current "standard of care" is defensive because it has grown up under the thumb of the med mal crisis. Just look at the "standard of care" for chest pain which is to basically admit everyone for an extensive work up. That is totally born out of fear.

I agree that a better system would have more self policing. I would like to see the punishment and compensation functions divorced. Patients would apply to the compensation end for their bad outcomes and the punishment function would be handled by a board that gives out sanctions but doesn't reward the patient (or his lawyer) for making grandiose accusations. .

I agree with this. Some other countries have implemented systems where patients who have a bad outcome get compensated. There are always going to be complications for a certain number of patients getting certain procedures - particularly surgeries, etc. Even with a great surgeon, there are expected complications, not all of which can be avoided. It's the same with putting in central lines...we can lower the rates of infection, pneumothorax, etc. but very unlikely we can lower these to zero. We need to have this discussion with the general public, because many people just don't understand that some level of bad outcomes is inevitable and doesn't = malpractice or "bad doctors" all the time. Of course the bad actors should be held accountable, but I think the current "pulling the slot machine" sytem where certain patients get millions and others might get nothing for the same injury/bad outcome is ridiculous.
 
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...You keep talking about reforming medicine to the point where there are no errors, no bad outcomes, no systemic dysfunction. That's just not realistic. ...

I actually never said anything about "the point where there are no errors..." I talked about making improvements to decrease the number of errors. Gawande did a nice job of talking to this point in his book Complications, discussing the enormous gains the field of anesthesiology has made in this respect. The profession can do a lot to improve the safeguards in place and significantly lessen errors. It will never be perfect, and I never suggested it would be. But I did suggest that reforms are in order. Improving on these processes, along with the self policing I spoke of above can have huge impact on the number of lawsuits.

The other thing that can be done relates to inter-patient relationships. A study a few years back suggested that doctors who spent more time with and communicated better with patients got sued far less. So working on the interpersonal service oriented aspects of patient care would also help.

So there's tons that can be done in-house to address this problem. Throwing your hands up and saying "we need tort reform" or to just blame it on the lawyers, or the slot machine mentality of patients, abdicates our profession's responsibility. And yes, if something goes wrong by a physician's negligent hand, then our society deems the actor responsible and the appropriate person to shoulder the cost. Saying some percentage of central lines are going to have complications, so that's the patient's problem is not reasonable. A line related PTX occurs due to negligence. Sure, doctors are only human and with even the best skillset some small percent of chest tubes will cause one. But that doesn't make it not negligent. I understand that folks don't like the idea of being held to a standard of perfection, but being able to put in a central line without causing a PTX happens to be the standard of care. This standard was created by other doctors, not lawyers.
 
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. . .A line related PTX occurs due to negligence. Sure, doctors are only human and with even the best skillset some small percent of chest tubes will cause one. But that doesn't make it not negligent. . .

Unfortunately, when strictly applied, this logic is what is driving OBs out of business. If anything at all goes wrong with the birth (or if the parents don't like something about their child in the next 18 or so years and choose to blame it on something they think went wrong at birth), the doctor gets sued. Left unchecked, this could/will/has lead to doctors refusing to treat high risk conditions and/or moving away from states where this is a big problem (see: Illinois).
 
And yes, if something goes wrong by a physician's negligent hand, then our society deems the actor responsible and the appropriate person to shoulder the cost. Saying some percentage of central lines are going to have complications, so that's the patient's problem is not reasonable. A line related PTX occurs due to negligence. Sure, doctors are only human and with even the best skillset some small percent of chest tubes will cause one. But that doesn't make it not negligent. I understand that folks don't like the idea of being held to a standard of perfection, but being able to put in a central line without causing a PTX happens to be the standard of care. This standard was created by other doctors, not lawyers.
That's just wrong. Some level of risk for bad outcome and for technical limitations has to be accepted by the patient. It is not the standard of care to never cause a pneumo. The known rate is ~1/100 (and is dropping with US but does and will always exist). To say that any technical complication equals negligance and that any doc who has such a complication deserves to be sued is just so disturbing to me I can't even express my dismay.

Losing a case can end your career. If your assertion that any complication = negligence and should = losing a suit we'll all just be transient actors in thei field. I would be gone. It would only serve to enhance the already disposable nature of doctors in the current system.
 
That's just wrong. Some level of risk for bad outcome and for technical limitations has to be accepted by the patient. It is not the standard of care to never cause a pneumo. The known rate is ~1/100 (and is dropping with US but does and will always exist). To say that any technical complication equals negligance and that any doc who has such a complication deserves to be sued is just so disturbing to me I can't even express my dismay.

Losing a case can end your career. If your assertion that any complication = negligence and should = losing a suit we'll all just be transient actors in thei field. I would be gone. It would only serve to enhance the already disposable nature of doctors in the current system.

I'm not saying that anybody "deserves to be sued". I'm saying that there is no such thing as an acceptable rate of mistake (technical complication) under the law. The law isn't about blame as much as shifting burdens. It has been deemed that where someone does something that deviates from the standard of care, which, for example, is considered the case when putting in a chest tube causes a pneumothorax, according to medical experts, then he bears the burden and it is deemed negligent. This is not the same as the OBGYN case where some percentage of babies will be born imperfect even without medical intervention. Causing a pneumothorax isn't just something that happens X% of the time so tough luck for the patient. It is something where the X is going to be variable based on the physician, and thus the physician bears the cost of that X. That is so whether it happens 1/100 times or 1/2 times. You lessen your liability if you lessen the rate of complications, but the law doesn't allow for you to throw up your hands and be less concerned/careful because there is an "acceptable risk" for a given procedure. Because patient's aren't bargaining for acceptable risk. They are bargaining for you to fix what ails them, and if there are complications along the way, the question becomes whether you deviated from the standard of care. So it turns on whether an expert deems you erred. And if you cause a PTX putting in a line, you erred even if the best hands will err 1% of the time. That isn't saying you are bad, it's saying you did the procedure so you shoulder the cost (as opposed to the patient shouldering the cost).

As for losing your career due to a case or two of alleged negligence, it doesn't really happen. Most physicians will be sued at least once in their career, many in surgical fields and OB will be sued multiple times. They carry insurance and don't lose their careers.
 
Unfortunately, when strictly applied, this logic is what is driving OBs out of business. If anything at all goes wrong with the birth (or if the parents don't like something about their child in the next 18 or so years and choose to blame it on something they think went wrong at birth), the doctor gets sued. Left unchecked, this could/will/has lead to doctors refusing to treat high risk conditions and/or moving away from states where this is a big problem (see: Illinois).

This (driving OBs out of business argument) has been alleged for many years now (decades), and yet OBGYNs haven't gone out of business. It has affected their bottom line and probably affected the quality of individuals going into the field. But except in press releases of the OBGYN organizations, it in fact isn't a big problem, and you don't see as many OBGYNs quitting the field as might be thought from some of the assertions that lawsuits are driving them out of business. Their prices have gone up and their insurance coverage has gone up, but the field hasn't dried up.