patients to have access to physicians notes

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kaycee18

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Recently told at work that patients will have access to their entire charts including notes and labs/imagings and sometimes, because even reviewed by the physicians. That this was a national rule. Anyone else going through similar changes? How are you planning on dealing with this? will it increase risk of malpractice lawsuits?

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Recently told at work that patients will have access to their entire charts including notes and labs/imagings and sometimes, because even reviewed by the physicians. That this was a national rule. Anyone else going through similar changes? How are you planning on dealing with this? will it increase risk of malpractice lawsuits?

Yep. It's going to make our notes all the more useless.

I used to use my notes to communicate with other physicians (what a concept). I would write things like,
"Patient's symptoms seem to be supratentorial [she's crazy]".....
"Patient in well-versed in the medical literature [pain the a$$ patient who thinks he can dictate his care b/c he did a pubmed search]"
"Patient is in a hostile mood [he's an a$$hole, round on him last]"

Now we can't do that any more. Or maybe we can come up with some code-speak. crazy = 34JJGL , attempts to direct care = 343JKJFKG , etc etc
 
Patients have always had access to their notes. The chart is owned by the hospital/physician, the content of the chart is owned by the patient. Now it will just be easier for them to see their notes. This isn't a terribly big change. Perhaps it will now be easier for patients to see their notes. But if you were writing inflammatory statements in your notes, it's only a matter of time before that will come back to hurt you. Nothing loses a meritless medmal case faster than an inflammatory note.
 
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That’s when you start using direct patient quotes in your. Notes. Or can you be sued for that too
 
Nothing loses a meritless medmal case faster than an inflammatory note.

Inflammatory, never. Comedic, sometimes.

All kidding aside, here's an example where this can become disastrous.

Say you admit a patient with diffusely metastatic colon cancer, who's dyspnic, failing to thrive and will likely die during this admission. You have an extensive discussion about palliative care. You document this in your HNP, and you state something to the effect of, "The patient has a very poor prognosis; I have serious concerns that he may pass away during this admission." [you want to communicate this fact to everyone involved, including Palliative care]

Meanwhile, the patient is in disbelief and wants another round of chemotherapy. You try to tell him that his prognosis is poor and that he's going to die soon, but of course he doesn't want to hear that....and in fact they're getting quite angry with you for even bringing it up.

The next day, while he's still admitted in the hospital, the patient looks up his own HNP (that you completed and signed yesterday). He's able to do this via the new "Epic Patient Phone App", because they decided it wasn't enough to give patients access to notes, but they decided to do so in real time, as soon as the note is signed. It's also the year 2030, and we're on SARS-Cov5.

Now your patient becomes even more ridiculously irate, because he read in your HNP a statement about him dying. He complains to hospital admin, a shtshow ensues, and you're left feeling like you did something wrong (all the while, you were just trying to your job).

Nothing good is going to come out of this.
 
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It's generally good practice to write your notes as if they were going to be read by everyone including the patient and family.
 
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The patient could have always requested their notes. It's just easier now then ever before.

If you are writing your notes in such a way that you wouldn't want a patient, their family or a jury reading them then you are probably not doing it right. Communicating honestly can still be done in the chart for other physicians to see. This scenario about a patient with advanced cancer and them becoming more irate because your note reflects what you told them is a little silly.

Writing in the chart in an objective way without all this language of passing judgement on patients should be the norm.

Would you want a physician writing "her symptoms seem supratentorial" about your mother's anxiety about a new diagnosis?

I'm sorry to lecture here, but I'm often disappointed by some of the pervasive and negative ways we think of some patients.
 
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I'm sorry to lecture here, but I'm often disappointed by some of the pervasive and negative ways we think of some patients.

It's not that we think of them negatively. Patients are often in a confusing environment that they don't understand, and diving into the medical notes may make things even more confusing (if they don't have someone to interpret things for them).

I have no problem with patients having access to their records. I have a printer in most clinic rooms, I readily print out copies of labs/rads etc and give them to my patients. I'm glad they ask for it, b/c it shows they care. But at least in these instances, I'm in the room and we can go over things together. I can point out what's relevant, what's not, etc etc.
 
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Would you want a physician writing "her symptoms seem supratentorial" about your mother's anxiety about a new diagnosis?

I would agree, my Mom's pretty nuts.

So maybe I don't use the word supratentorial, but I might say something like: "We have found no organic etiology to the patients recent seizure activity. Negative EEG, negative MRI. The nature of these seizures (pelvic thrusts, etc) is not telling of any epileptiform pathology. Given her multiple psycho-social stressors (recent divorce, estranged from her children), I believe her symptoms here are more psycho-somatic in nature."

You think the patient will take to this well, seeing this on her "Epic Patient Now Access to my Notes'" app?
 
I would agree, my Mom's pretty nuts.

So maybe I don't use the word supratentorial, but I might say something like: "We have found no organic etiology to the patients recent seizure activity. Negative EEG, negative MRI. The nature of these seizures (pelvic thrusts, etc) is not telling of any epileptiform pathology. Given her multiple psycho-social stressors (recent divorce, estranged from her children), I believe her symptoms here are more psycho-somatic in nature."

You think the patient will take to this well, seeing this on her "Epic Patient Now Access to my Notes'" app?

Yes, I do. Especially if you have a rapport, counsel the patient, and change their focus on working on the aforementioned stressors. If on the other hand the patient is made to feel the doctor thinks her symptoms aren't serious and "it's all in my head", it doesn't matter what you write in the chart, because they'll be unhappy with you.

Sure no one likes spending lots of time counseling with difficult diagnoses with unclear cause and no good treatments, like non-epileptic seizure, or in my case in GI with IBS, refractory GERD, chronic abdominal pain, but if you have good rapport and write objectively in the chart without judgement/moralizing then in my experience patients have no problem with what's written in notes.
 
It's not that we think of them negatively. Patients are often in a confusing environment that they don't understand, and diving into the medical notes may make things even more confusing (if they don't have someone to interpret things for them).

I have no problem with patients having access to their records. I have a printer in most clinic rooms, I readily print out copies of labs/rads etc and give them to my patients. I'm glad they ask for it, b/c it shows they care. But at least in these instances, I'm in the room and we can go over things together. I can point out what's relevant, what's not, etc etc.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that. Add time limitations can make this difficult.
 
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It's not that we think of them negatively. Patients are often in a confusing environment that they don't understand, and diving into the medical notes may make things even more confusing (if they don't have someone to interpret things for them).

I have no problem with patients having access to their records. I have a printer in most clinic rooms, I readily print out copies of labs/rads etc and give them to my patients. I'm glad they ask for it, b/c it shows they care. But at least in these instances, I'm in the room and we can go over things together. I can point out what's relevant, what's not, etc etc.
I already get daily portal messages about abnormal MCHC when the rest of the CBC is normal. I'm not worried about patients being mad, I'm worried about the 10 billion messages I'm going to get about medical terms in the chart that they don't understand.
 
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I already get daily portal messages about abnormal MCHC when the rest of the CBC is normal. I'm not worried about patients being mad, I'm worried about the 10 billion messages I'm going to get about medical terms in the chart that they don't understand.
This is the real problem. I spent at least half of the time in about 1/3 of my visits yesterday explaining to people what "nodule", "stranding" and "soft tissue" meant, rather than actually talking about whether their cancer had progressed or regressed.

Raw data without the ability to analyze or integrate it is completely useless, and potentially harmful.
 
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This is the real problem. I spent at least half of the time in about 1/3 of my visits yesterday explaining to people what "nodule", "stranding" and "soft tissue" meant, rather than actually talking about whether their cancer had progressed or regressed.

Raw data without the ability to analyze or integrate it is completely useless, and potentially harmful.
This 100%. Why is my chloride 95? What's an RDW? Did you see my hemoglobin went from 14.0 to 13.5, what's causing that?
 
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I worked in a health system where notes were default available on Mychart and it was not a big deal at all. Like twice in 2 years did anyone ask me about something I wrote or want me to change something. Most people really don't bother even getting on Mychart regularly, and if they do, most of them get bored scrolling through all the medical jargon and won't scrutinize every word you write. Don't write anything rude (like "supratentorial," jfc) and it's totally fine.
 
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We are now getting training on how to write our notes so that patients understand everything we write. For example, instead of using cardiomegaly, we should write enlarged hearts. Also, that we avoid using certain diagnosis e.g., morbidly obese as it may offend patients. Medicine has officially gone to hell. Working really hard to attain FIRE.
 
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We are now getting training on how to write our notes so that patients understand everything we write. For example, instead of using cardiomegaly, we should write enlarged hearts. Also, that we avoid using certain diagnosis e.g., morbidly obese as it may offend patients. Medicine has officially gone to hell. Working really hard to attain FIRE.

Health.At.Every.Size (HAES)
 
We are now getting training on how to write our notes so that patients understand everything we write. For example, instead of using cardiomegaly, we should write enlarged hearts. Also, that we avoid using certain diagnosis e.g., morbidly obese as it may offend patients. Medicine has officially gone to hell. Working really hard to attain FIRE.
Smile and nod during that training, then do what you feel is best. That's a very valuable skill to possess.
 
My notes have been readily available to the patients for a while now and quite honestly nothing concerning has come up from it so far. What I'm more worried about as an oncologist is the instant release of all imaging results and labs without any opportunity for me to see first and discuss appropriately with the patient.
 
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We are now getting training on how to write our notes so that patients understand everything we write. For example, instead of using cardiomegaly, we should write enlarged hearts. Also, that we avoid using certain diagnosis e.g., morbidly obese as it may offend patients. Medicine has officially gone to hell. Working really hard to attain FIRE.

You should send them notes taking this to the extreme. instead of lacerations patient's have "boo boos and owies".

In general I agree though. Assume patients will read your notes. I personally use my normal jargon and shorthand. If a patient asks I'll explain a term, but also explain to them that there is nothing in the chart of importance that I won't communicate to them, and notes are written to be useful to their other caregivers.
 
Mr. John Doe is an 86 year young gentleman who is, by the way, quite handsome. He has a medical history of the sugars, reflecting his sweet personality, and a touch of the pressure.

We took a picture of his chest last week and found some sort of lumpy-bumpy thing with funny lymph glands. It may be lung cancer and node cancer. Mr. Doe is a fighter and I'm sure he'll live forever.
 
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Mr. John Doe is an 86 year young gentleman who is, by the way, quite handsome. He has a medical history of the sugars, reflecting his sweet personality, and a touch of the pressure.

We took a picture of his chest last week and found some sort of lumpy-bumpy thing with funny lymph glands. It may be lung cancer and node cancer. Mr. Doe is a fighter and I'm sure he'll live forever.

Gomers don't die
 
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It's generally good practice to write your notes as if they were going to be read by everyone including the patient and family.

This.

Nothing in a note should ever surprise anyone who was privy to the conversation in the first place. *shrugs* -- Perhaps there will be an "attending to attending" section where you can informally talk about notes without it being shared by the patient, but also not be used for billing purposes.
 
Mr. John Doe is an 86 year young gentleman who is, by the way, quite handsome. He has a medical history of the sugars, reflecting his sweet personality, and a touch of the pressure.

We took a picture of his chest last week and found some sort of lumpy-bumpy thing with funny lymph glands. It may be lung cancer and node cancer. Mr. Doe is a fighter and I'm sure he'll live forever.


*TRIGGERED*
What do you mean by FIGHTER? Is it his socioeconomic background? His race? How can you assume his identity so easily?
*TRIGGERED
 
I already get 5 emails a day about why their RDW was slightly outside of range but everything else was normal.

This will most likely bring even more questions my way but like someone mentioned, you shouldn't be writing inflammatory stuff in the note.

I'm just worried about my lack of me giving a **** about minor dragon dictation errors and patients calling me out on that hahahaha.

waiting on insurance authorization somehow ended up as "waiting for three Asians" in one of my previous notes
 
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I was dealing 30 years ago with patients complaining that the physician wrote "SOB" in their record.

In the military people often hand-carried their medical records.
 
I'm not worried about this at all. The most offensive thing I have ever written in a note was directly quoted from the patient themselves. After those direct quotes, I think "alcohol dependence" is the worst thing I've written about a patient in their note.
 
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This will most likely bring even more questions my way but like someone mentioned, you shouldn't be writing inflammatory stuff in the note.

"Alcohol use disorder"
"Tobacco use disorder"
"Morbid obesity"
"Noncompliance with medication regimen"

Pretty sure all of us have used these terms in our notes. I try to use the last one sparingly, but I have definitely used it. And I think the average patient would find these terms to be pretty inflammatory - they don't know about ICD-10 or DSM-5.
 
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"Alcohol use disorder"
"Tobacco use disorder"
"Morbid obesity"
"Noncompliance with medication regimen"

Pretty sure all of us have used these terms in our notes. I try to use the last one sparingly, but I have definitely used it. And I think the average patient would find these terms to be pretty inflammatory - they don't know about ICD-10 or DSM-5.
If your EMR allows, you often can change the wording but keep the same ICD-10 code.

For instance my default instead of tobacco use disorder is purely "smoker" or tobacco use without the disorder part. Same code.

Obesity in epic is broken down into class 1, 2, 3 with BMI listed.
 
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1) chart like every one is reading it
2) discuss your concerns of psychiatric etiology with the patient and chart that, too. Practice these discussions.
3) as others mentioned the physical chart is owned by the doctor or health system, but the content belongs to the patient, we get the privilige of adding notes to their record
4) Get away from working from the Big Box shops, and open your own practice, you can control things far more. Take back your career and the profession.
 
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"Alcohol use disorder"
"Tobacco use disorder"
"Morbid obesity"
"Noncompliance with medication regimen"

Pretty sure all of us have used these terms in our notes. I try to use the last one sparingly, but I have definitely used it. And I think the average patient would find these terms to be pretty inflammatory - they don't know about ICD-10 or DSM-5.

My job (hospitalist) has had open access to notes for 2 years.
The pts who complained are the ones who would have found another reason to complain.
Truth is the absolute defence and if they told ED doc that they haven’t taken their meds (and its documented), and you ask and they answer the same, then by all means, call them what they are.

I DO encourage docs to try to find the reason for the non-compliance.
Car broke down and can’t go to HD is different than “the doc there doesn’t like me”.

Just yday I admitted a guy who had had an NSTEMI, with something like “pt has not picked up any of his meds from pharmacy for over a year and hasn’t gone to any follow up appts”.
That definitely puts a “he deserved it” vibe in the chart, and when I asked him he told he that he could either get meds for him or his kid, and he chose his kid. :(

I also ask nurses (and trainees) not to use the word “refuse” and rather “decline” cos refuse sounds confrontational while the pt may have just wanted to figure out why we’re giving them metoprolol 100 vs their usual 25.
 
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We are now getting training on how to write our notes so that patients understand everything we write. For example, instead of using cardiomegaly, we should write enlarged hearts. Also, that we avoid using certain diagnosis e.g., morbidly obese as it may offend patients. Medicine has officially gone to hell. Working really hard to attain FIRE.

That is just plain stupid.
 
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Please tell me you originally typed out the more colloquial way we normally describe the arrival of mail and had to change it.

What is the more colloquial way?

“They ain’t got here yit?”

“Um, like, I’ve been, like, waiting for, like, literally a million years for my, like, package”

“WHERE IS IT”
 
What is the more colloquial way?

“They ain’t got here yit?”

“Um, like, I’ve been, like, waiting for, like, literally a million years for my, like, package”

“WHERE IS IT”

"my order has not been consummated.

My order has not yet been brought to completion

My purchasing experience has not yet come to a happy ending"
 
Recently told at work that patients will have access to their entire charts including notes and labs/imagings and sometimes, because even reviewed by the physicians. That this was a national rule. Anyone else going through similar changes? How are you planning on dealing with this? will it increase risk of malpractice lawsuits?

It's definitely creating a buzz in hospitals and is going to lead to more questions on the patient end. That said, it's critical you learn to practice appropriate documentation hygiene early in residency. This is not often taught by programs which does residents who aim to start clinical practice a disservice.

First and foremost, understand the primary goal of documentation is reimbursement. What you've written should give specific, unambiguous instructions to those carrying out orders and make sense if medicolegal teams get involved. Simultaneously notifying teams of all the thoughts in your head is nice, but should not detract from the primary goal. If you feel like something can not be clearly conveyed through documentation or is a gray area, pick up the phone and call them. Any desire to "think aloud" or preview your next step in notes (ex. if V/Q scan high probability, we will start Heparin) should only be given as a consultant if you're comfortable with that plan being executed without asking you further. For primary teams, try to limit discussion about differentials to only the highest likely conditions and to not recreate an essay from your clinical reasoning course.

Secondly, yes you should copy forward for your own sanity but get into the habit of going line-through-line to ensure everything (dates, daily plan, data), etc. is up to date and the plan is reflective of today. Attendings will lose trust in you if they actually read your notes before signing them and see "surgery tomorrow" when the surgery was a week ago (not using dates instead of "tomorrow" is a rookie mistake). These appear to be pointless details in the grand scheme, but we've become so complacent that many of our notes are now meaningless. Not saying we need to overhaul the system, but we need to spend the extra second on the details at times.

Last, and most important, any difference of opinion you have with another team should be handled by, as my attending likes to say "picking up the damn phone". Never make disagreements or frustrations with other teams evident in notes. Interns oftentimes document "paged surgery team XYZ, no response" for CYA purposes or take a page out of an RNs playbook and document "RN paged second time, no response". Your hospital ultimately functions as a team. Patients will now be privy to all this drama and it will only serve to decrease their confidence in their healthcare team or give fuel to any litigative efforts when things get put under the microscope retrospectively. When it comes to describing actions of patients, be careful not misrepresent what they say while also not attempting to recreate exact conversations via documentation as your memory may not be as sharp as you think and if wrong, you could be accused of libel or worse, give other teams a false impression of the patient. If a patient refuses blood draws and gives a long convoluted rant as to why, simply document "Patient declined blood draw this AM, was counseled on importance". It's not your job to "warn" other teams. Let them walk in and get their own impression. Its ultimately better for the patient if another team can convince the patient to do the right thing as opposed to putting a false label on the patient to try to spare another team a minor inconvenience.

Overall:

1.) Limit your differentials to most likely as a primary team and as consultants, conveying what to do and how (doses, duration) is more important than conveying what's possible. If staff feel the need to pontificate in prose about how this is a challenging case, let them do that in their staff addendum.
2.) Avoid voicing any disagreements/frustrations you have with another team in your notes. It's immature and will only serve to hurt your hospital.
3.) Document a patient's behavior only if its directly pertinent to your exam or plan. State objective information and avoid any commentary to avoid false impressions.
 
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It's definitely creating a buzz in hospitals and is going to lead to more questions on the patient end. That said, it's critical you learn to practice appropriate documentation hygiene early in residency. This is not often taught by programs which does residents who aim to start clinical practice a disservice.

First and foremost, understand the primary goal of documentation is reimbursement/conveying the thought process in your therapeutic plan. Simultaneously notifying teams of your plan is ideal, but should not detract from the primary goal. If you feel like something can not be clearly conveyed through documentation or is a gray area, pick up the phone and call them. Any desire to "think aloud" or preview your next step in notes (ex. if V/Q scan high probability, we will start Heparin) should only be given as a consultant if you're comfortable with that plan being executed without asking you further. For primary teams, try to limit discussion about differentials to only the highest likely conditions and to not recreate an essay from your clinical reasoning course.

Secondly, yes you should copy forward for your own sanity but get into the habit of going line-through-line to ensure everything (dates, daily plan, data), etc. is truly reflective of today's plan. Attendings will lose trust in you if they actually read your notes before signing them and see "surgery tomorrow" when the surgery was a week ago. I know it appears like a pointless detail and you'll see bad examples like this all the time by your colleagues, but in medicine it can be a big deal.

Lastly, and most importantly, any disagreements/discrepancies you have with another team should be VOICED IN-PERSON and never documented in notes. Interns oftentimes document "paged surgery team XYZ, no response" for CYA purposes or take a page out of a RNs book and document "Paged nurse second time, no response". All this is inappropriate. Your hospital ultimately functions as a team. Patients will now be privy to all this drama and it will only serve to decrease their confidence in their healthcare team or give fuel to any lawsuits/complaints that may or may not be valid. When it comes to describing actions of patients, be careful to not misrepresent what they say, but do not strive to recreate exact conversations with them in documentation as your memory may not be as sharp as you think and if wrong, you could be liable to being accused of libel. If a patient refuses blood draws and gives a long convoluted rant as to why, simply document "Patient declined blood draw this AM, was counseled on importance".

Overall,

1.) Limit your differentials or consultant recommendations to the standards of medical care (what 99% of physicians would ask or want to know). If staff feel the need to pontificate in prose about how this is an interesting case, let them do that in their staff addendum.
2.) Avoid voicing any disagreements/frustrations you have with another provider in your notes. Its immature and will only serve to hurt your hospital. Be brief and objective when documenting actions of a patient.

Very well written.

I always use dates and never y’day, POD 4, or stop antibx in 6 weeks.

I did have a habit of stating “Nephro consulted for HD” etc and then got a talking to when I made an error, and cardio attending asked me (while I was on IM), why I suggested ABC when pt had XYZ, so now I just say “Cardio consulted for next steps in management” :)

Once an option is suggested, I think it becomes something that consultants “have” to undo (why are they not doing HD etc) which is added work, vs just stating their recommendations.

I also like the “breadcrumbs” you leave either for yourself for the next day or the oncoming doc.. If X, then Y. While the new doc obviously has to agree etc, it does make life easier
 
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Very well written.

I always use dates and never y’day, POD 4, or stop antibx in 6 weeks.

I did have a habit of stating “Nephro consulted for HD” etc and then got a talking to when I made an error, and cardio attending asked me (while I was on IM), why I suggested ABC when pt had XYZ, so now I just say “Cardio consulted for next steps in management” :)

Once an option is suggested, I think it becomes something that consultants “have” to undo (why are they not doing HD etc) which is added work, vs just stating their recommendations.

I also like the “breadcrumbs” you leave either for yourself for the next day or the oncoming doc.. If X, then Y. While the new doc obviously has to agree etc, it does make life easier

Yup. Made the Consult ABC for XYZ mistake tons of times before someone actually corrected me. Continuing your example, the way to go is to state the problem "Nephrology consulted for worsening oliguric AKI" after double checking you have appropriately characterized the problem. Some people just have good intuition about these things, but for those like me, I'd prefer if it was spelt out.
 
I'll have to stop writing "older than stated age"
 
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