Pay As You Earn - The get into debt thread

[Rlow04]

---

Members do not see this ad.

PAYE vs IBR

This last December a new federal loan payback program was passed called Pay As You Earn (PAYE). It's the successor to Income Based Repayment (IBR), that allowed students to have loan payments at 15% of their discretionary income and if they couldn't pay it back in 25 years, the balance of the loan was forgiven and counted as taxable income.

PAYE makes it much easier - now your loan payment is only 10% of your disposable income and the loan is forgiven at 20 years. I think "Disposable Income" is calculated by your adjusted gross income minus the poverty level for your household size. Others have said that it's your after-tax income minus the poverty level, but the website wasn't clear. You can play around with the calculator below.

There are a few requirements to PAYE. The first is that you can't have any loans from before Oct. 1, 2007. This disqualifies some people who took loans to finish undergrad. The second is that you must have take out a new loan after Oct. 1, 2011. Lastly, your PAYE payment must be less than what your 10 year repayment plan payments would be – at my school everyone who used loans as their main funding source would qualify for this.

Here are the .gov sites for IRB and PAYE:

IBR - http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/income-based

PAYE - http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/pay-as-you-earn

PAYE Calculator - http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/pay-as-you-earn/calculator

For Example: if your adjusted gross income is $120,000 (the 2011 median income for a dental associate, according the new ADA report) and you have a family of 3, the calculator spits out a monthly payment of $756/mo. This is independent of your loan balance - no matter if you owe $200,000 or $500,000, your payment is $756/mo. and scales as your income increases.


Standard 10-Year Repayment Plan
At my school, if you take the full loan disbursement each year: $100,000, you walk out of school with around $440,000 because of fees and interest accumulated during school. To pay it off in 10 years your monthly payment would be right around $5,000. By the end of those 10 years, your cumulative payments would total to $607,000.


PAYE as an Associate making $120k/yr
In contrast, if you were an average associate, making $120k/yr for those 20 years, your payment would stay at $756/mo. At the end of the 20 years your loan balance would be forgiven, even though it had ballooned to over $1 million. Your total out of pocket would be $181,000, less than the original loan balance!

PAYE as a Solo Dentist making $165k/yr
Now, I admit that it would be rare if a dentist stayed an average associate for 20 years, so what if that dentist went on his or her own? The ADA says in 2011 the solo doc would make $165,000. Plugging that into the calculator gives us a monthly payment of $1131/mo. The total payed over the 20 years would only be $271,000 – still less than the original loan balance.


PAYE as an Above Average Dentist at $300/yr
Lastly, lets say the new doc goes on their own, reads Dentaltown, takes a bunch of CE, hires an associate, and makes 300k/yr (which is higher than the new ADA average of $220k for a dentist employing associates). The calculator gives us a payment of $2256/mo., less than half of the 10 yr repayment plan. This still doesn't cover the interest, but it's enough to stop the loan from ballooning to $700K-$1mil+. Over 20 years the dentist will pay $541,000, which is less than the $607,000 they would pay if they had done the aggressive 10-year plan.


What is the disadvantage?
At the end of the PAYE description, it says, "you may have to pay taxes on any loan amount that is forgiven after 20 years." To me that sounds like they're going to count your loan forgiveness as taxable income at year 20, but it's a pretty ambiguous statement. If that's the case, in the first two scenarios with payments well below the interest accruing the final loan balance is anywhere from $600,000 to $1,000,000. So would you be liable for taxes as if you earned $1mil plus whatever you are making as a dentist at the time? What are taxes on $1.12 million? What happens if you can't pay that, does the IRS seize your practice and home? Or do you take out a new loan and repeat the whole cycle?

I want to make sure that my classmates understand this program correctly, one classmate proposed that you should take out the max loan amount every year even if you don't need it since your payment will stay the same and it will all be forgiven. I don't want him to shoot himself in the foot if there are some unforeseen tax implications to this.

 

[suarez 7]

At the end of the PAYE description, it says, "you may have to pay taxes on any loan amount that is forgiven after 20 years." To me that sounds like they're going to count your loan forgiveness as taxable income at year 20, but it's a pretty ambiguous statement. If that's the case, in the first two scenarios with payments well below the interest accruing the final loan balance is anywhere from $600,000 to $1,000,000. So would you be liable for taxes as if you earned $1mil plus whatever you are making as a dentist at the time? What are taxes on $1.12 million? What happens if you can't pay that, does the IRS seize your practice and home? Or do you take out a new loan and repeat the whole cycle?

I want to make sure that my classmates understand this program correctly, one classmate proposed that you should take out the max loan amount every year even if you don't need it since your payment will stay the same and it will all be forgiven. I don't want him to shoot himself in the foot if there are some unforeseen tax implications to this.

As far as I understand it, after the period of 20 years, whatever is left in your loan balance is added to you as taxable income. So yeah you would be liable for taxes on a $1m salary. Ideally if you get to that point you would realize that your taxes will be significantly higher for year 25, so you probably would have saved enough for it.

I think PAYE/IBR is a gamble to be honest, I don't think it's something that will last for very long. In PAYE/IBR you are doing the bare minimum payments, and the interest accumulates so your balance just gets larger and larger. You aren't decreasing the debt as you go on, it's increasing. And what if all of a sudden the federal government decides to cut this program short? Well, you will be $600k-$1m in the hole.

 

[b0110]

As far as I understand it, after the period of 20 years, whatever is left in your loan balance is added to you as taxable income. So yeah you would be liable for taxes on a $1m salary. Ideally if you get to that point you would realize that your taxes will be significantly higher for year 25, so you probably would have saved enough for it.

I think PAYE/IBR is a gamble to be honest, I don't think it's something that will last for very long. In PAYE/IBR you are doing the bare minimum payments, and the interest accumulates so your balance just gets larger and larger. You aren't decreasing the debt as you go on, it's increasing. And what if all of a sudden the federal government decides to cut this program short? Well, you will be $600k-$1m in the hole.

The last part is the scary part. I have a feeling though if they abruptly stop it that they would have to forgive some part of the loan, but you could still get into a much bigger hole than if you were to just outright pay it in 10 years.

 

[Rlow04]

If the next administration cancels this program, it will not affect all those who are already on the program - only those who have not started repayment.

But if those who are currently applying to schools are counting on PAYE to bail them out, they might get screwed.

 

[Bereno]

So would you be liable for taxes as if you earned $1mil plus whatever you are making as a dentist at the time? What are taxes on $1.12 million? What happens if you can’t pay that, does the IRS seize your practice and home? Or do you take out a new loan and repeat the whole cycle?

Seems to be an interesting thread - I will have to look at it tomorrow after finals. That said, In the state of WA, taxes for $1.12mil are at about $365k... Thats more than most people's loan lol

 

[UCSFx2017]

Seems to be an interesting thread - I will have to look at it tomorrow after finals. That said, In the state of WA, taxes for $1.12mil are at about $365k... Thats more than most people's loan lol

😀 Please do look into this for us. I never had a real job in my life so I don't fully understand the tax and financial lingo. I almost chose a private school because I thought the IBR was some sort of loop-hole.

 

[UCSFx2017]

If the next administration cancels this program, it will not affect all those who are already on the program - only those who have not started repayment.

Yeah, they probably get grandfathered in.

 

[Avery07]

It saddens me when people expect the government to fix their problems. I'm for the government getting rid of both programs altogether. This does nothing but reward stupidity and further balloons national debt. 👎

 

[Shunwei]

It saddens me when people expect the government to fix their problems. I'm for the government getting rid of both programs altogether. This does nothing but reward stupidity and further balloons national debt. 👎

Agreed. people are essentially buying an education and a degree, so pay the due money. yes it is expensive, but over the course of a full career it can still be paid off with reasonable installments. I guess people always want freebies.

 

[shulk]

Even on IBR or PAYE the government is still making a tidy profit from your loans. No one is getting off 'free'. These programs are likely designed to lure even more young people into taking out more loans - it would be better for the government if someone took out a loan and used IBR or PAYE rather than not take out a loan at all.

These programs were also not designed with dentists in mind anyways. Not all careers enjoy the high salaries that many dentists and other health care professionals have access to.

 

[NDPitch]

It saddens me when people expect the government to fix their problems. I'm for the government getting rid of both programs altogether. This does nothing but reward stupidity and further balloons national debt. 👎

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1

👍👍👍

 

[Shunwei]

Even on IBR or PAYE the government is still making a tidy profit from your loans. No one is getting off 'free'. These programs are likely designed to lure even more young people into taking out more loans - it would be better for the government if someone took out a loan and used IBR or PAYE rather than not take out a loan at all.

These programs were also not designed with dentists in mind anyways. Not all careers enjoy the high salaries that many dentists and other health care professionals have access to.

It seems to me that the reason people are interested in this program is the "loan forgiveness" part after a certain time. It certainly qualifies as a "freebie" in my mind.

 

[Silent Cool]

It seems to me that the reason people are interested in this program is the "loan forgiveness" part after a certain time. It certainly qualifies as a "freebie" in my mind.

Yeah, I brought up this term on another thread--"loan forgiveness." I think it is very deceptive. The loan is not really forgiven...it's just added to your taxable income. Very sneaky working, IMO.

 

[Shunwei]

Yeah, I brought up this term on another thread--"loan forgiveness." I think it is very deceptive. The loan is not really forgiven...it's just added to your taxable income. Very sneaky working, IMO.

Yes, much better to just play it straight and pay off like what you are supposed to do. There is no such thing as a free lunch. If it is too good to be true, it most certainly is.

 

[mid]

Yeah, I brought up this term on another thread--"loan forgiveness." I think it is very deceptive. The loan is not really forgiven...it's just added to your taxable income. Very sneaky working, IMO.

Assuming you are doing well as a dentist, paying $0.38 per $1 of loan ain't to bad.

 

[Bereno]

So after poking around a little bit I think that PAYE is an awful lot like a large credit card in that if you use it wisely, its awesome and can really benefit you, but if you are stupid it can really hurt you.

Here is why (IMO):
The first 5 years or so of a green-horn dentist are crucial to setting up their future income. This is when their speed increases, comfort increases, and when they start looking at owning their own practice. Unfortunately, this is also when they will be faced with the highest debt to income ratio. This is why I have spouted (quite a few times, actually) that cash flow is the most important thing to worry about as a new dentist. Older dentists can worry less about this. The PAYE looks to be a great way to fix PMT relative to income. Awesome! This will also increase the dentists ability to generate some working capital for a practice loan. Awesome. The part that can really bite you in the arse is when you do not ramp up PMTs after you become an owner/operator. If someone leaves this to the end, they will end up getting really stung by the final PMT and added interest (capitalized?). I think using PAYE for no more than 5 years would be close to ideal-ish. Longer than that and the benefits might start to taper off.

All said and done, the info seems kinda vague, as the OP mentioned. There does seem to be a potential benefit for those starting off, so long as they do not get too comfortable with their rising discretionary income levels, and start increasing PMT after they are settled in their practice.

Let me know what you guys think; agree or disagree. 🙂

 

[Flipper405]

So after poking around a little bit I think that PAYE is an awful lot like a large credit card in that if you use it wisely, its awesome and can really benefit you, but if you are stupid it can really hurt you.

Here is why (IMO):
The first 5 years or so of a green-horn dentist are crucial to setting up their future income. This is when their speed increases, comfort increases, and when they start looking at owning their own practice. Unfortunately, this is also when they will be faced with the highest debt to income ratio. This is why I have spouted (quite a few times, actually) that cash flow is the most important thing to worry about as a new dentist. Older dentists can worry less about this. The PAYE looks to be a great way to fix PMT relative to income. Awesome! This will also increase the dentists ability to generate some working capital for a practice loan. Awesome. The part that can really bite you in the arse is when you do not ramp up PMTs after you become an owner/operator. If someone leaves this to the end, they will end up getting really stung by the final PMT and added interest (capitalized?). I think using PAYE for no more than 5 years would be close to ideal-ish. Longer than that and the benefits might start to taper off.

All said and done, the info seems kinda vague, as the OP mentioned. There does seem to be a potential benefit for those starting off, so long as they do not get too comfortable with their rising discretionary income levels, and start increasing PMT after they are settled in their practice.

Let me know what you guys think; agree or disagree. 🙂

Totally agree - and this is how I intend to use it. I am doing an AEGD residency, so my income will be rather limited initially. PAYE allows me to keep these payments under control initially and not break the bank. However, I definitely do not intend to rely on the forgiveness to pay everything off, and I am looking into several options to knock out the debt ASAP after I'm done with my residency.

 

[buckeye2012]

According to the website, the accrued interest will never exceed 10% of the principal loan balance. So it seems that the loan amount may not balloon even if the monthly payments don't cover interest.

"Unpaid interest capitalizes if you are determined to no longer have a partial financial hardship, but the total amount of interest that capitalizes while you are repaying your loans under the Pay As You Earn plan is limited to 10% of your original principal balance when you begin paying under Pay As You Earn. "

"You have a partial financial hardship if the monthly amount you would be required to pay on your eligible federal student loans under a 10-year Standard Repayment Plan is higher than the monthly amount you would be required to repay under Pay As You Earn."
http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/pay-as-you-earn

This also makes paying income taxes on the forgiven amount at the end of 20 years more feasible, rather than having to pay taxes on a million+, most students would only have a total of 3-400,000 after adding the 10% cap of interest to the principal loan balance.

 

[Bereno]

According to the website, the accrued interest will never exceed 10% of the principal loan balance. So it seems that the loan amount may not balloon even if the monthly payments don't cover interest.

"Unpaid interest capitalizes if you are determined to no longer have a partial financial hardship, but the total amount of interest that capitalizes while you are repaying your loans under the Pay As You Earn plan is limited to 10% of your original principal balance when you begin paying under Pay As You Earn. "

"You have a partial financial hardship if the monthly amount you would be required to pay on your eligible federal student loans under a 10-year Standard Repayment Plan is higher than the monthly amount you would be required to repay under Pay As You Earn."
http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/pay-as-you-earn

This also makes paying income taxes on the forgiven amount at the end of 20 years more feasible, rather than having to pay taxes on a million+, most students would only have a total of 3-400,000 after adding the 10% cap of interest to the principal loan balance.

Yeah, when I saw that I was wondering if they were saying this is only if you are in forbearance (hence the question mark), unless PAYE is considered to be a form of forbearance? Not sure lol

 

[buckeye2012]

Is the interest "capitilizing" different from interest accruing? In other words, could it be that the interest never capitalizes more than 10% of the original loan balance, but the full amount of interest may accrue and in fact be counted toward the forgiven amount after 20 yrs? I think I need to talk to an advisor about this!

 

[Bereno]

Is the interest "capitilizing" different from interest accruing? In other words, could it be that the interest never capitalizes more than 10% of the original loan balance, but the full amount of interest may accrue and in fact be counted toward the forgiven amount after 20 yrs? I think I need to talk to an advisor about this!

Yeah, they are different. Accrued is a period specific term in that you can "accrue" interest for a certain period, and after that it is usually capitalized (added to the total loan balance, and thus is no longer interest but principle). I don't think there would be a way to accrue more much more than 10% so long as capitalization is capped at 10%

Always talk to an adviser about this stuff if you can! Much more reliable info than whats on the web lol

 

[Datooth]

Is the interest "capitilizing" different from interest accruing? In other words, could it be that the interest never capitalizes more than 10% of the original loan balance, but the full amount of interest may accrue and in fact be counted toward the forgiven amount after 20 yrs? I think I need to talk to an advisor about this!

If you (or anyone for that matter) happen to talk to an advisor, Please let us know what you find!

 

[UltimateHombre]

All said and done, the info seems kinda vague, as the OP mentioned. There does seem to be a potential benefit for those starting off, so long as they do not get too comfortable with their rising discretionary income levels, and start increasing PMT after they are settled in their practice.

Let me know what you guys think; agree or disagree. 🙂

Well said, Bereno, CFP

However, i think this is much more dangerous, than advantageous. The majority of people are not fiscally disciplined enough to live below their means and save up the cash needed, in the 5 year PAYE period, as you suggest. Furthermore, most people (who have been starving students most of their adult lives) will not want to live like a student when they start making a decent income. Their lifestyles will adjust to only having a $700-800 payment and they will not be able to get back on the right track to financial payback. And fall in danger of a fat final loan payment in 20 years.

Furthermore, there is still a significant amount of risk with the cash flow strategy. It all assumes that your future practice will do well, the economy stays stable and current government regulations stay the same.

Even for the most disciplined business owners, leveraging cash flow and living frugally are very difficult, let alone a brand new DDS with little to no money management and business acumen.

 

[Mackchops]

My first thought is that these programs aren't meant for dentists and our typically high earning power. I think they were designed for people 100k in debt from getting their masters and becoming special ed kindergarten teachers...

That said, I fully plan on enrolling in IBR. It allows me to minimize my mandatory monthly payments while not penalizing me for making additional payments as my income fluctuates and ultimately (hopefully!) increases. If my minimum payments aren't large enough to cover my interest, the government will forgive the difference for the first three years. After that, unpaid interest accrues, but won't capitalize. Eventually, as my income increases the minimum monthly payment will cap out at what my minimum monthly payment would have been on a standard 10-year repayment of the ORIGINAL principle, although even when this happens you technically stay in IBR - you can never get booted from the program for making too much money. If you do change, your only choices are standard or extended repayment and all interest capitalizes...

Ultimately, what this means is I can pay whatever I want -- but my obligation (and, consequentially, my risk for late/missed payments) are minimized until my income is high enough for this not to be a concern. It gives me more flexibility and control over the repayment of my loan. There isn't really a downside as long as you plan responsibly - don't do it for the forgiveness unless you're planning to do Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) which forgives the balance of your remaining loan TAX-FREE after only 10 years of on-time IBR payments. The catch is you have to work for the government, a non-profit, or a public entity. Working for the VA or most hospitals could count but whether this program will be funded or not by the time people start becoming eligible for it is another question...

 

[Bereno]

Well said, Bereno, CFP

However, i think this is much more dangerous, than advantageous. The majority of people are not fiscally disciplined enough to live below their means and save up the cash needed, in the 5 year PAYE period, as you suggest. Furthermore, most people (who have been starving students most of their adult lives) will not want to live like a student when they start making a decent income. Their lifestyles will adjust to only having a $700-800 payment and they will not be able to get back on the right track to financial payback. And fall in danger of a fat final loan payment in 20 years.

Furthermore, there is still a significant amount of risk with the cash flow strategy. It all assumes that your future practice will do well, the economy stays stable and current government regulations stay the same.

Even for the most disciplined business owners, leveraging cash flow and living frugally are very difficult, let alone a brand new DDS with little to no money management and business acumen.

I hear what your saying, but I'm not sure I totally agree (though I mostly agree). I agree that a new dentist might start to get used to their new lifestyle, but at the same time most (not all) will also want to buy a practice, and save for that. I think the lower PMT allows most people the increased lifestyle as well as the greater ability to save for a loan... I might be too idealistic here, but I think its a strong likelihood lol.

Also, due to the limitations on capitalization, it does not appear as dangerous as it could be...

 

[Rlow04]

Just to be clear - the non-capitalization means that you won't be paying interest on interest. It's not compounding. However your loan will still be accruing interest based on the original loan balance. And this only matters when your monthly payment is less than the interest amount.

 

[Bereno]

Just to be clear - the non-capitalization means that you won't be paying interest on interest. It's not compounding. However your loan will still be accruing interest based on the original loan balance. And this only matters when your monthly payment is less than the interest amount.

👍 Good point. This is why I was saying earlier that this could potentially bite you in the arse if not tended to properly

 

[hoak]

I have been researched a lot about this program when I got out of school. I think this is a greatly designed program that serves two purposes: give the borrower the buying power they don't have with the original payment plan; on the other hand, the government still get its money back.

Why do I say so? Here is my simplified calculation

If I have 400k in debt and go for the 10 year payment plan with 8.5% interest, the total I would have to pay is about 600k ($595,131.14 to be exact) with a monthly payment of approximately 5000.

If I go with the IBR/PAYE, and taking national average dentist's salary of $140,000. The monthly payment would be 1400 x 240 = 336,000. Your debt after 20 years would be 400,000 x 0.085 x 20 = 680,000 + principle 400,000 - payment 336,000 = 744,000. So for that final year, 744,000 will be forgiven and you will pay tax for that amount. Giving tax bracket of 35%, you will have to pay 260,000. In short, with IBR, after paying 20 years, you have to give back to the government 260,000 + 336,000 = 596,000.

That was about the same for both type of payment and the government will get all its money back plus interest, NOTHING is being lost. So for the people saying that the government is giving out freebies, it is NOT. It's just another, more flexible way to pay your debt.

Also by allowing you to pay less monthly, the government also allows you to have more buying power to buy your practice, buy houses, and other spending. You will also pay more sale taxes, property taxes. And those kind of things help the economy which is what the government wants.

So, this program is here to stay, it has bi-partisan supported and I really do not see it being cut in any foreseeable future

 

[AdamAustin]

It is very useful information. So, thanks for sharing this with us. The last part is really scary but still we have to deal with it.

 

[buckeye2012]

Hoak, thanks for running those calculations. I ran similar calculations for my loans. It turns out I would probably pay just about the same amount over 20 yrs with paye and taxes on the forgiven amount as I would with a standard 10 yr payment. The only catch is, I calculated the amount payed in taxes with a tax rate of 40%. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT ASSUMPTION, and perhaps a faulty one. Who is to say that 20 yrs from now the tax rates will be similar to today's rates?

Historically, rates on the highest earners have, at times, been substantially higher. In the 80's the top tax bracket was 50%, and in the 70's it was 70%. The tax rate makes a huge difference when paying income tax on a forgiven student loan that has accrued tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in interest. In the above example, if the tax rate was instead 70%, the additional tax for the forgiven loan would be over $520,000, in addition to the $336,000 already payed for a whopping total of almost $857,000.

I would encourage everyone to consider this before planning on taking advantage of the forgiveness. I can't imagine being in my forties, well into my career worrying so much about student loans and tax rates...

 

[Some Pig]

Inflation! Yeah Baby! Will have a major impact in at least coming 10-20 years. At this point its not a question that the otherwise astronomical debt numbers for d school grads will be tempered a great deal by all the legalized counterfeiting behind all the funny money fed res notes. Oh wait, the euphemism is "Quantitative Easing"...so that makes it less than one big giant Ponzi scheme🙄

LOL! silver lining for those with massive student loans, though. If precedent is any guide, every 10 years the value of the loan will be halved by inflation. At current rates, though, the 'savings' via inflation will likely track greater in shorter time:

Pump Pump Pump!!
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...on-pace-of-bond-buying-sees-risks-waning.html

 

[RickCo]

Thank you guys for this thread and discussion. I have nothing useful to add, except to say that I just signed my first MPNs yesterday and my blood pressure elevated a lot! This thread gives me a lot to think about! Cheers!

 

[MatthewLeeDDS]

It saddens me when people expect the government to fix their problems. I'm for the government getting rid of both programs altogether. This does nothing but reward stupidity and further balloons national debt. 👎

+ infinity

 

[Lethstang]

hoak i believe someone said earlier total accrued interest will never get past 10% of principle correct yeah?

so, 400k debt. you make your monthly payments. you make 120k a year as an associate and pay in 181k after 20 years. last year you are taxed on 440k at 35%, lets call it a third, so 110k. youve now paid 290k.

so this program helps you if you dont make alot of money, as it should. it begins to break down once you start making alot.

I have always looked at these programs as a way to have more cash flow the first few years out of school while students get their feet under them. I think planning on using them for the forgiveness is selling yourselves short.

Going into dentistry planning on making 150k a year average while paying 400k at 7-8% is...well....I am just hoping thats not how you guys are thinking.

also as another young man eluded to earlier, inflation is going to make your loans more manageable in theory. As long as supply of patients doesnt dry up due to the coming recession.

If I may just end giving some humble advice for your career - plan on associating 1 year and then owning. With the huge price tag of this education its the best, feasible way to come out on top. A long associateship is a luxury of bygone days, or students who had their education paid for. With hard work and competence, along with a little luck, todays numbers will allow you to pay off your practice loan and student loan within 7-10 years as long as you live well below your means. Youve lived on <25k for years now. If you can handle 7 years of 50-70k after tax you will be set.

Earlier if you know what you're doing.

For example, depending on prevailing interest rates you could leverage your practice and pay off your student debt. If you did this today, with enough equity (which means youd have to be successful in practice) you could drop your student loan down to 3% and make the interest portion tax deductible.

If you are dead set on becoming a dentist, dont stress about your debt now. Hire a dental cpa once you land your first gig and he will guide you through the process.