PBL ninjas

[PoorMD]

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I must say this first, I hate PBL.

I was never an auditory learner, but I definately don't learn anything listening to my PBL-classmates list off 100 different bacteria from some website.. As if that is somehow solidifying our basic sciences knowledge. Some of the cases have nothing to do with our class material.. our current case is dealing with some microbio and path and we don't take those topics until next year..

It seems like every time I do a learning issue, some other "PBL Jedi" swoops in and ninjas my presentation, usually by covertly suggesting there is more to the story and proceding to tell it... if they say something about an enzyme or a bacteria or a medication, the facilitator takes it as a personal attack and feels he needs to challenge their knowledge of gram negative rods and all this stuff-- and I'm like " What the crap is a rod?? I have never even taken micro, yet these people are arguing about it." Can't we get back to the basic sciences please?? Damned ninjas turn everything into a rat race..

 

[Law2Doc]

I must say this first, I hate PBL.

I was never an auditory learner, but I definately don't learn anything listening to my PBL-classmates list off 100 different bacteria from some website.. As if that is somehow solidifying our basic sciences knowledge. Some of the cases have nothing to do with our class material.. our current case is dealing with some microbio and path and we don't take those topics until next year..

It seems like every time I do a learning issue, some other "PBL Jedi" swoops in and ninjas my presentation, usually by covertly suggesting there is more to the story and proceding to tell it... if they say something about an enzyme or a bacteria or a medication, the facilitator takes it as a personal attack and feels he needs to challenge their knowledge of gram negative rods and all this stuff-- and I'm like " What the crap is a rod?? I have never even taken micro, yet these people are arguing about it." Can't we get back to the basic sciences please?? Damned ninjas turn everything into a rat race..

I feel bad for you. Every thread you start recounts your run ins with gunners, ninjas, etc. I don't know what med school you are at, but am glad I am not there.

 

[Agent Splat]

Ninjas use distractions and parlor tricks.

The only way you can beat them is by becoming Batman. Your enemies will share your fear.

I never learned anything at my school's PBL sessions either.

 

[DoctorFunk]

I recommend you do the absolute minimum necessary to get a decent grade in the PBL class, and then proceed to slack off and recharge your mental batteries so that you can focus more on classes that actually matter.

Ninjas, gunners, who cares? If they're diverting energy into a PBL class away from more the more demanding traditional curriculum, then they'll all just end up looking like clowns in the end.

 

[iatrosB]

I must say this first, I hate PBL.

I was never an auditory learner, but I definately don't learn anything listening to my PBL-classmates list off 100 different bacteria from some website.. As if that is somehow solidifying our basic sciences knowledge. Some of the cases have nothing to do with our class material.. our current case is dealing with some microbio and path and we don't take those topics until next year..

It seems like every time I do a learning issue, some other "PBL Jedi" swoops in and ninjas my presentation, usually by covertly suggesting there is more to the story and proceding to tell it... if they say something about an enzyme or a bacteria or a medication, the facilitator takes it as a personal attack and feels he needs to challenge their knowledge of gram negative rods and all this stuff-- and I'm like " What the crap is a rod?? I have never even taken micro, yet these people are arguing about it." Can't we get back to the basic sciences please?? Damned ninjas turn everything into a rat race..

Man that sucks...sorry you're getting burned by PBL. Are you at a full fledged PBL curiculum as I am? Gotta keep a sense of humor in PBL, listen closely to the ninjas...most are saying "since I don't have anything better to do I read all of Harrison's last night and made notecards of every page, in doing so I ran across some information about your objective...". Pity the ninjas, do not be annoyed by them. If you laugh out loud at them, it makes you feel better and they usually retreat...good luck

 

[njbmd]

I must say this first, I hate PBL.

I was never an auditory learner, but I definately don't learn anything listening to my PBL-classmates list off 100 different bacteria from some website.. As if that is somehow solidifying our basic sciences knowledge. Some of the cases have nothing to do with our class material.. our current case is dealing with some microbio and path and we don't take those topics until next year..

It seems like every time I do a learning issue, some other "PBL Jedi" swoops in and ninjas my presentation, usually by covertly suggesting there is more to the story and proceding to tell it... if they say something about an enzyme or a bacteria or a medication, the facilitator takes it as a personal attack and feels he needs to challenge their knowledge of gram negative rods and all this stuff-- and I'm like " What the crap is a rod?? I have never even taken micro, yet these people are arguing about it." Can't we get back to the basic sciences please?? Damned ninjas turn everything into a rat race..

Hi there,
It sounds like you are having difficulty separating the material from the presentor/presentation. Try to learn to tune out the arguing, time-wasting and other distractors and get as much meat as possible from the discussion. When I find myself in meetings with the same tone, I take a pen and pad and jot down anything that is a learning point and let the rest go. By honing this exercise, I have really learned to cut to the chase and let the rest go.

You have a body of material that you have to master. Since you have taken the required pre-med coursework, you know how to master learning. You DO NOT have to have taken a specific course to gather information. Make a note of the pathway and look it up in a good book like Harrisons etc. Take the salient points and dismiss the rest. Try assuming the role of "bulls--t repellant" for your group and get them back on track.

If someone attempts a hostile takeover of your presentation, hold your ground and smile as you are doing it. Refuse to go to their level and stay as professional as possible. From your description, it sounds like you are feeling battered by folks who are getting a thrill out of messing with your head.

The best way to deal with a gunner is use them to add to your knowledge base. Let them show off by spouting obscure little factoids and keep taking notes. In the end, you can use their knowledge of the zebras with little work on your part.

njbmd 🙂

 

[PoorMD]

Hi there,
It sounds like you are having difficulty separating the material from the presentor/presentation. Try to learn to tune out the arguing, time-wasting and other distractors and get as much meat as possible from the discussion. When I find myself in meetings with the same tone, I take a pen and pad and jot down anything that is a learning point and let the rest go. By honing this exercise, I have really learned to cut to the chase and let the rest go.

You have a body of material that you have to master. Since you have taken the required pre-med coursework, you know how to master learning. You DO NOT have to have taken a specific course to gather information. Make a note of the pathway and look it up in a good book like Harrisons etc. Take the salient points and dismiss the rest. Try assuming the role of "bulls--t repellant" for your group and get them back on track.

If someone attempts a hostile takeover of your presentation, hold your ground and smile as you are doing it. Refuse to go to their level and stay as professional as possible. From your description, it sounds like you are feeling battered by folks who are getting a thrill out of messing with your head.

The best way to deal with a gunner is use them to add to your knowledge base. Let them show off by spouting obscure little factoids and keep taking notes. In the end, you can use their knowledge of the zebras with little work on your part.

njbmd 🙂

Thanks njbmd. You always have a nice, thought-filled response..
Law2Doc, man gunners everywhere. The reason you don't think there are many gunners in the room is because you are the gunner// 😱 did you ever think of that?

 

[Psychopathology]

Med school can be a trip sometimes. PBL brings out the worst in people. It's tough to enjoy a case when your classmates are arguing about things you have never heard about and you are affraid to announce your ignorance because you are being graded on how many of the details you understand (although this really isn't the point of PBL, many of the people grading you may believe that it is).

I survived a year of that but things change when you start a subject like pathology and not everybody is an expert in it already. You're not the only one in the group without a masters in path or candidacy for a doctorate. The playing field is level, so to speak.

A good facilitator knows to redirect students who talk over the heads of their peers and bully people around. A good group is one that doesn't wander too far off course to discuss minutiae. Groups that rush through the material and take days off waste time. You can't appreciate everything there is to learn from a case in an hour. Groups that discuss the nitty gritty detail of every single symptom tend to lose people. The students who do best in PBL tend to be students who really enjoy the material or have some sort of insight into the material, and they tend to be the more aggressive students. Aggressive people do better overall. That's life.

With PBL, I've been both the quiet person and the "jedi" and I can honestly say that it was easier when I was quiet, but that my grades improved when I made the decision to study more so that I could contribute. It can be difficult to get a word in sometimes, but I've learned to speak up. That takes a lot of effort. Also, as you alluded to, some people can be very cricitcal of the people who speak up. The people who do well and contribute often are often the people who get shot down by insecure classmates. My deal is I don't interrupt people, I avoid being the person who talks the most (I actually keep track of this), and I back down when challenged because I sure as heck don't know everything.

PBL has its ups and downs but everybody in my class is a bit stressed right now, so I'll be happy when it's over.

Work hard in PBL; it's part of your grade. Don't worry if there are a few gun-weilding knowitalls in your group right now, making it hard for you to keep up with the conversation. You are part of the majority of students who feel this frustration. You may also have a chance to at some point become one of the stars. It's a hyper-competitive environment, no matter how "chill" people pretend to be. It's one of the many hurdles we need to clear to earn those letters. Good luck!

 

[Law2Doc]

Thanks njbmd. You always have a nice, thought-filled response..
Law2Doc, man gunners everywhere. The reason you don't think there are many gunners in the room is because you are the gunner// 😱 did you ever think of that?

Oh please. If I'm what you consider a gunner then you are whining over nothing...

 

[Rafa]

PoorMD, tell me you don't go to Cornell. As far as I know, that's the only PBL-ish school I'm applying to.

 

[AusMeds]

Chances are, if you feel this way, there are at least a couple of others in the group that feel the same way. The best thing to do is to get these views out in the open.

Perhaps have a chat with your facilitator offline and explain your perceptions that certain Jedi's are hijacking learning issues. The facilitator can then suggest in your next PBL that you all have a self-assessment chat to discuss how your team is performing and what you could do better.

This is your moment to air your views - but do so in a positive way ... not "PBL Jedi is hijacking my air time", but rather, "I notice we all have a tendency to interrupt ..." If you can, try to find someone else in your group before-hand who feels the same way and tee them up to jump in with a "I feel the same way" or ask the facilitator to say "I've noticed that happening a lot." This will validate your perception and make sure that it gets addressed. Then collectively you can establish a rule to let people finish speaking first, before others jump in to debate certain points or present additional info.

Another way to get yourself heard ... if you feel you have done a particularly good job on a certain learning issue, arrive at PBL 15 min. early and put your diagram/info up on the white board. It's a way of staking a claim to an LI - and makes it tougher for others to interrupt you when you are walking them through a whole diagram.

And finally, don't take it personally when others add info to what you have presented. Nobody knows it all, and the best learning I've had in PBL is when I put a diagram up on the board, then someone else comes up and adds their piece to it, and others jump in ... then you end up with a really integrated picture of what's really going on!

You get out of PBL what a group is willing to put into it - and sometimes it takes a bit of work to get a group to the point that it's performing - but when it does, PBL can crystalize a lot of learning!

 

[fun8stuff]

I must say this first, I hate PBL.

I was never an auditory learner, but I definately don't learn anything listening to my PBL-classmates list off 100 different bacteria from some website.. As if that is somehow solidifying our basic sciences knowledge. Some of the cases have nothing to do with our class material.. our current case is dealing with some microbio and path and we don't take those topics until next year..

It seems like every time I do a learning issue, some other "PBL Jedi" swoops in and ninjas my presentation, usually by covertly suggesting there is more to the story and proceding to tell it... if they say something about an enzyme or a bacteria or a medication, the facilitator takes it as a personal attack and feels he needs to challenge their knowledge of gram negative rods and all this stuff-- and I'm like " What the crap is a rod?? I have never even taken micro, yet these people are arguing about it." Can't we get back to the basic sciences please?? Damned ninjas turn everything into a rat race..

ah, pbl... the latest curriculum fad. the moral of story is go to a school with as little pbl as possible.

 

[BozoSparky]

I find myself stuggling with PBL all the time. However, I have been to a few tumor boards and I felt right at home - this meeting was just as bizarre as a PBL session! So, although you might not learn everything you need from PBL, I think there is something to be said for what it's preparing us for.

 

[PoorMD]

I find myself stuggling with PBL all the time. However, I have been to a few tumor boards and I felt right at home - this meeting was just as bizarre as a PBL session! So, although you might not learn everything you need from PBL, I think there is something to be said for what it's preparing us for.

that's a really good point. I didn't consider that aspect.
A lot of meetings and 'grand rounds' type sessions are like PBL: large group of ego's each allowed their share of the floor time, thus destroying any true resemblence of order or 'academia' even.. I don't like these random "PBL forums" because so many of the particpants just spout off random proteins, not random to those few who read 50 pages about it the night before..

I am impressed by people who can humbly teach what they know, in an organized pattern of thought. Sadly most of my PBL classmates are very black or white, is or is not, "it's just that way", no explanation behind their pathway, or the explanation is so jarbled and discongruent that no one could get anything out of it unless they had a wealth of past experience with the topic.. one of the struggles of converting from engineering.

 

[Psychopathology]

These are all good points and you've reminded me of why I actually appreciate the PBL curriculum:

As the presenter, I've learned how to give a focused, concise and mildly interesting presentation on a complicated topic. This is one of the most important skills I have learned. Not everybody learns how to do this, but it's worth the effort.

As a part of the discussion, I've learned how to hold my own with some of the more aggressive conversationalists. I've also gotten better at dealing with a variety of personalities.

Lastly, PBL is one of the many experiences that has brought me patience and humility, while pushing me to be my absolute best. It's quite a challenge and a time committment.

PBL has its pros and cons and there are certainly ways for it to improve. I don't consider it any more of a fad than internet based learning and despite my occasional frustration, I have taken a lot from this curriculum.

 

[Ypo.]

PBL has its ups and downs but everybody in my class is a bit stressed right now, so I'll be happy when it's over.

You could say that about medical school for me. I hate it.

We'll be doing PBL next year. I know enough about learning styles and personalities to realize that PBL takes not just work, but the ability of personalities and minds to get along and think alike. So, in that respect it is going to be luck. If I get a bum group, I will do my best to make it work, but if I can see its not working after awhile, and if no one finds my input helpful at all, I'll switch modes to the 'do the least that I can to get by'.

I'm part of a study group right now, but the thing about it is that the personalities involved get along with each other. We don't insult people if they don't know an something, and if we think the speaker is wrong about something we don't just interrupt, we politely say "Hmmm...I interpreted that in another way" and then proceed to explain and ask others what they think. Sometimes you are right, sometimes you are wrong. The benefit of the group is that you get the right info in the end. But the difference between my group and PBL is that with my group is a choice: the people who stick it out are the ones who find it useful and who work well together. In PBL you get thrown in with a group and are forced to do it whether it works or not. So, I am really not looking foward to it, because the chances are that it won't work out to be a naturally great group. I can see that well enough from all of the cliques that have formed at my school. But I'll keep crossing my fingers! 🙄

PS-I agree with the poster that one of the benefits is learning how to teach others and how to get along with different personalities. I just hope that will actually happen next year!

 

[taekwondoc]

dont worry about these gunners/ninjas whatever... i too was tortured by them thru out med school... but let me tell u as an MS4 on the way out... really only one thing counts, STEP I. Ace it and your golden... so be ready.

 

[PoorMD]

one of the benefits is learning how to teach others and how to get along with different personalities. I just hope that will actually happen next year!

it wont.

 

[DW]

I go to a school that is one of the earlier PBL converts I guess. I won't try to sell you on it by the reasons that other people give, b/c i'm sure you've heard them and I don't necessarily agree with all of them.

But I will tell you one very valuable thing that it DID teach me before 3rd year, and hopefully it will teach you too.

It teased out all the gunners BEFORE I got to the wards.

A student at a traditional 100 percent lecture school I feel could not have any idea of the lengths that people would go to show people up and kiss arse that I had finishing 2 years of PBL. All the excessive handouts, the domineering students who shouted down all the other students, those people who were in insane in PBL continue to be insane during third year. PBL taught me that when I have a topic or patient to present, not to get completely alarmed when that neurotic if-I-don't-match-into-derm-I'll-kill-myself 3rd year has obviously looked up things on my topic or LOOKED UP LAB VALUES AND SCANS ON MY PATIENT WHO ISN'T EVEN ON THEIR SERVICE (yes, this has happened to me), that these things happen and I can't lose my cool. PBL taught me that sometimes too much sucking up will eventually backfire on some people, so I don't have to act like a personal butler to my resident b/c they will occasionally tell you behind closed door they find it revolting when someone kisses ass TOO much. It taught me in the world of 3rd year subjective grading, sometimes you have to figure out ways to sidestep the lunacy and figure out when you minimize the effect of the suckup (i.e. what percentage of your grade are shelf exams for some clerkships, etc)

Take note of all those wackos during PBL...they are to be avoided at ALL costs in third year.

 

[DW3843]

These are all good points and you've reminded me of why I actually appreciate the PBL curriculum:

As the presenter, I've learned how to give a focused, concise and mildly interesting presentation on a complicated topic. This is one of the most important skills I have learned. Not everybody learns how to do this, but it's worth the effort.

As a part of the discussion, I've learned how to hold my own with some of the more aggressive conversationalists. I've also gotten better at dealing with a variety of personalities.

Lastly, PBL is one of the many experiences that has brought me patience and humility, while pushing me to be my absolute best. It's quite a challenge and a time committment.

PBL has its pros and cons and there are certainly ways for it to improve. I don't consider it any more of a fad than internet based learning and despite my occasional frustration, I have taken a lot from this curriculum.

these are good points.


I have to say I would absolutely hate to go through med school learning solely by the PBL way. I am at a traditional lecture school, but we have 3 hour PBL sessions once a week for about 5 or 6 weeks during the spring semester of each of the first two years. (wow a lot of numbers going on in that sentence?)

Anyway, PBL has it's good points but they are limited. I will second the comments about finding out how to work with gunners and still keep your cool. It's completely obvious to me (and the faculty I think) that some students are just blatantly obnoxious overachievers. That kind of mindset is so ridiculous, and it really does show through.
Med school is full of gunners, but that doesn't mean that a successful student/doctor needs to be that way.

 

[Hard24Get]

I must say this first, I hate PBL.

I was never an auditory learner, but I definately don't learn anything listening to my PBL-classmates list off 100 different bacteria from some website.. As if that is somehow solidifying our basic sciences knowledge. Some of the cases have nothing to do with our class material.. our current case is dealing with some microbio and path and we don't take those topics until next year..

It seems like every time I do a learning issue, some other "PBL Jedi" swoops in and ninjas my presentation, usually by covertly suggesting there is more to the story and proceding to tell it... if they say something about an enzyme or a bacteria or a medication, the facilitator takes it as a personal attack and feels he needs to challenge their knowledge of gram negative rods and all this stuff-- and I'm like " What the crap is a rod?? I have never even taken micro, yet these people are arguing about it." Can't we get back to the basic sciences please?? Damned ninjas turn everything into a rat race..

This is silly. PBL isn't "lecture-by-med-student" - who wants that? PBL is for discussion, and if you are presenting that day, your job is to lead the discussion and you should be glad when people are interested enough in the topic to chime in. This is the way most professionals, including physicians and scientists learn - through conversation. If you get your panties all in a bunch everytime someone makes a good point, you are just being a spoil-sport. If you don't know anything, like the others said, just take notes. If you do, contribute so everyone else can learn, too.

Not everyone who speaks up in PBL are gunners, they may actually be interested in the subject. These may be the same people happy to study with you/learn from you/teach you something on the wards rather than compete with you.

 

[Psychopathology]

Not everyone who speaks up in PBL are gunners, they may actually be interested in the subject. These may be the same people happy to study with you/learn from you/teach you something on the wards rather than compete with you.

At the risk of severe criticism (from strangers on the internet... oh no!) I'm going to agree with the statement above.

I had two very different experiences with PBL first and second year and a lot of that had to do with how much I enjoyed the cirriculum and my perspective on why we (students) were here (medical school).

Monday morning, across this nation, millions and millions of alarm clocks are going to fill bedrooms with loud, horrible shrieking... at least that's what they sound like when you are doing something you hate. Millions of snooze buttons will be pressed by sleepy people who mutter the magic F word as they turn over in bed. Go manage a bunch of teenagers at the GAP and you'll notice they're staring at the clock all day, thinking about their girlfriends and waiting for you to go for lunch so they can pull out gameboy or use their cell phones. Meanwhile, as the manager, you're staring at the clock all day, thinking about your girlfriend and waiting for the teenagers to go to lunch so you can get some work done and then go back to staring at the clock.

After years of being around this mentality, I'm actually a bit excited to know a few people in my medical school class who are turned on by what they do and offer a lot of curiosity and enthusiasm. If they go overboard a little bit sometimes, it makes me feel like I have to compensate in order to stay competitive, but that is a decision I make. I don't have to be number one around here. I know a lot of med students who would jump out a window before accepting second place to somebody else. These people can't lose at a game of ping pong without getting pissed off. No wonder they hate PBL.

I think a lot of us chose medicine because we wanted to feel excited and inspired by our work. There is a lot of career flexibility in medicine, especially but certainly not exclusively in the academic mileu. There are so many interesting specialties and loads of opportunities to contribute to science. Despite the day to day rigors and frustration of our training and careers (this is life) and despite some of the uncomfortable sacrifices and accompanying hardships that are exclusive to our profession, I feel like I lucked out getting into medical school, and that I lucked out getting into a school that utilizes problem based learning. I complain sometimes, sometimes heavily, but overall I am lucky. I have a class where gunner hijinks is rare to come by.


That guy or girl in your PBL group who is reasonably but vividly excited about the cases and generally seems excited about medicine outside of PBL... this person is probably going to enjoy their career. They care about things probably more than most other people care. I doubt they're doing it for the grade. Some of them might not even be at the top of your class, but we choose not to piss about it. If you're having a bad day or you're in a bad mood, they can be annoying sometimes. Big deal. They're happy. They deserve to be that way. You're the one with the problem and you can either deal with it if you feel the person is actually doing something inappropriate (being a bully or getting off topic), or you can remain insecure and passive aggressive.


I used to feel like your average, insecure medical student, threatened by the more competitive students. I have excelled at some things here and I have fallen flat on my face in other endeavors. There is so much competition in medical school, that even extremely bright people can feel like they're "bad at everything." Having uber-enthusiastic classmates show up for PBL and outperform you at times makes this feeling a lot worse, if you let it. I have learned to put my ego aside. Sometimes, I actually enjoy the competition because it makes me work harder and I learn a lot faster from it than I would from just isolating myself with the classical medical texts: Robbins, High Yield, and BRS.

PBL is not easy. Neither are the first two years of medical school. Congratulations to everybody finishing up and good luck to those preparing to embark!

 

[Long Dong]

PBL taught me that when I have a topic or patient to present, not to get completely alarmed when that neurotic if-I-don't-match-into-derm-I'll-kill-myself 3rd year has obviously looked up things on my topic or LOOKED UP LAB VALUES AND SCANS ON MY PATIENT WHO ISN'T EVEN ON THEIR SERVICE (yes, this has happened to me), that these things happen and I can't lose my cool. PBL taught me that sometimes too much sucking up will eventually backfire on some people, so I don't have to act like a personal butler to my resident b/c they will occasionally tell you behind closed door they find it revolting when someone kisses ass TOO much. It taught me in the world of 3rd year subjective grading, sometimes you have to figure out ways to sidestep the lunacy and figure out when you minimize the effect of the suckup (i.e. what percentage of your grade are shelf exams for some clerkships, etc)

Take note of all those wackos during PBL...they are to be avoided at ALL costs in third year.

Good $hit 👍

 

[Hard24Get]

At the risk of severe criticism (from strangers on the internet... oh no!) I'm going to agree with the statement above.
That guy or girl in your PBL group who is reasonably but vividly excited about the cases and generally seems excited about medicine outside of PBL... this person is probably going to enjoy their career.

Hurray! Maybe my happy career won't be plagued by a plethora of only unhappy colleagues (outside of my med school) after all. 😀 Thanks!