PBL (Problem Based Learning) scares me

[Omyss]

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There just has to be some irony in this sentence.

sorry i don't see it... maybe i'm just dumb.

Was it the spelling error? 😕

 

[braintrust]

Ok So I would like to expound on some things mentioned inthis thread And as a Graduate student (and sometimes educator) at a PBL School I hope that this may help out those who are concerned about it:

1) Total reliance on PBL is bull**** but in principle the critical thinking stuff and clinical application is a good training for the future. A lot of my high school class mates are M1-M4 at a PBL school that only gives you maybe 3hrs worth of lecture on the cardiovascular system and then you teach yourself for your PBL. I feel that after a solid 2 years of graduate work I "may" up to the task of doing the type of clinical critical thinking about the material but to start off with it is a lot to ask for someone who doesn't understand ___________( fill in the physiology system). In my opinion the PBL to lecture ratio should be approx 20:80.

2) The ability of the faculty to teach you and to be a resource for you is pretty much not important in PBL. They want you to teach yourself entirely without any direction whatsover. From all my freinds they are for the most part lost and don't know what or how to study and the faculty do seem to skirt any teaching responsibilities at all (they aren't allowed to say anything during the PBL session you are supposed to struggle with the material.

3) Students teach each other in PBL. Stupid/slacker Med students exists in an equal amount to the brainiacs and if you get a bone teaching you something wrong and you don't catch it you will have some negative effects later on step 1 or worse yet in residency on a real patient. Of course the opposite is possible and you can really learn someting exceptionally well from a brainiac who also is able to teach (that is if he/she is in your group)

4)Regardless of what program you go to you will have to teach yourself. This isn't just if you choose to skip lecture or are doing PBL or attend lecture you will be studying a but load. So the question can you identify how to accurately spend your time on the material without becoming bogged down by having to just learn everything. Yes you eventually will have to learn a lot but missing keystone concepts without some direction is likely.

5)A number of faculty I have specifically talked to have expressed their own dissaproval with PBL

6) However over reliance on Lecture just produces parrots that aren't able to actually think for themselves and just know how to memorize things and regurgitate (of course later to forget everything they knew)

What you are finding at most school that were entirely PBL a shifting to incorporate more lectures (usually at the request of the students) and for the lecture based curriculums they are incorporating a little bit of PBL but not neccessarily as a teaching tool for the sciences but to train the med students minds to think critically about medicine.


Thats enough from me

 

[bozz]

From talking to medical school professors, they feel that PBL learning is an utter waste of time. This one professor (md/phd) I talked to said something along the lines of:

"You need to know the material within 2 years. It's all memorization. Look at foreign doctors joining residencies here. They have just as good of an education as Americans here. Consider the Indian medical school system as an example (joining medical school at the age of 17.. right after high school). Pure memorization. PBL learning is 'cutsy.' Schools simply like to try something new just to try something new."

This guy attended Case medical school many, many, many years ago.. back when you'd learn systems, 1 at a time and it worked perfectly.

 

[Jolie South]

From talking to medical school professors, they feel that PBL learning is an utter waste of time. This one professor (md/phd) I talked to said something along the lines of:

You need to know the material within 2 years. It's all memorization. PBL learning is "cutsy." Schools simply like to try something new just to try something new. He then went on to talk about specific schools.

This guy attended Case medical school many, many, many years ago. His son attends/attended Case also. When he was therem you'd learn systems, 1 at a time and it worked perfectly.

i don't mean this in a rude way, but i don't understand what you mean when you say "cutsy".

 

[bozz]

i don't mean this in a rude way, but i don't understand what you mean when you say "cutsy".

cutsie 😛

 

[45408]

No way, man.

Guy I knew
PBL curriculum
Step 1 - failed
Step 1 redux - barely passed
Step 2 - barely passed
Failed to match general surgery
Scrambled into prelim surgery in frigid, crime-infested Hellhole

Detroit's not *that* bad.

 

[Gut Shot]

Detroit's not *that* bad.

Good guess, but no cigar.

 

[medking]

From talking to medical school professors, they feel that PBL learning is an utter waste of time. This one professor (md/phd) I talked to said something along the lines of:

"You need to know the material within 2 years. It's all memorization. Look at foreign doctors joining residencies here. They have just as good of an education as Americans here. Consider the Indian medical school system as an example (joining medical school at the age of 17.. right after high school). Pure memorization. PBL learning is 'cutsy.' Schools simply like to try something new just to try something new."

This guy attended Case medical school many, many, many years ago.. back when you'd learn systems, 1 at a time and it worked perfectly.

I understand that there is alot of info one must "memorize" in the first two years of medical school, but how much of it do you think is retained? I've heard numbers as low as 40% (this is just from an adcom member, probably no science behind this number, lol). Isn't it as important to build the skills necessary to find relevant/accurate information when you need it?

 

[braintrust]

but even if retention of the most basic phys, anat, biochem, pharm is only at 30-40% there has got to be a about equal that amount in stuff that you are lightly familiar with as a result of the didactic teaching style. That stuff that sits on the tip of your tongue or the info that when someone tells you again you get it. And really get it good. With didatic teaching you'll likly get more data as well as the direction/insight from an expert in the feild as to what are the take away messages. With PBL I feel that its really a crap shoot with each group dynamic (you change groups often). You have a possibility really good and really bad groups and even more likely going off in the wrong direction with your focus on learning issues (LI) to bring back and teach and be taught. You really have to trust every student is intelligent. Also yes in PBL you have a instructor supervising but at least from all the schools I know they are theyre to observe and never get to help out with the discussion.

As far a learning to think critically, yes I think PBL teaches that and it teaches it well. But from my own experience with it and my many friends at a dedicated PBL school it is not the best way to get educated on the many scientific arenas for medicine.

 

[Gut Shot]

Isn't it as important to build the skills necessary to find relevant/accurate information when you need it?

Absolutely, and that should take about two days.

 

[bodonid]

But don't PBL schools on average do better on the steps?

And aren't PBL students better prepared for third year rotations?

I don't see a downside, aside from having to put up with the gunnerism.

 

[Gut Shot]

But don't PBL schools on average do better on the steps?

And aren't PBL students better prepared for third year rotations?

I don't see a downside, aside from having to put up with the gunnerism.

Perhaps you should read this review article that was brought up in another PBL thread (in allo).

 

[bodonid]

Perhaps you should read this review article that was brought up in another PBL thread (in allo).

Medical Journals of Australia?

I'm still not convinced. Again, who cares if you don't have quite as complex of a knowledge base; if it prepares you better for the steps, isn't that all we need in order to achieve our professional goals?

And I am not biased either: I wouldn't be as happy with PBL, and I have chosen a trad. curriculum over a PBL school.

 

[Gut Shot]

if it prepares you better for the steps,

Yes, if it prepares you better for the steps. To my knowledge there is no compelling evidence that this is the case.

 

[GAdoc]

People believe what they want to believe...that's one thing I've learned from having some truly meaningless debates on this forum over the past couple of years. Though I attend a 100% PBL school and love it, I don't expect to change anyone's minds.

I will share a couple thought I posted on another thread earlier.

First, you'd be surprised how your attitude towards ANY curriculum will become very positive when a school that employs it is the only place you hold an acceptance.

Second, if you have not experienced a school that employs PBL as its sole curriculum for years 1 and 2 you don't really understand it. Attending a school that tries to mix PBL with lecture would probably make me go crazy too. However, Mercer has employed a PBL-only curriculum since its inception in 1982. Interviewees try their best to convince their interviewers that they'd fit will in the program. The interviewers, however, all know the same thing: not one person really knows what PBL is like. Why? Simply because no undergraduate institutions employ it as the sole curricular method.

I'm not going to argue that PBL is better or that its' worse. I will say that until two or three years ago, Mercer had a 100% first time pass rate on Step 1 (the last couple years one or two of the 60 person class failed). The average MCAT at Mercer is about 26 to 27 and GPA is about 3.5.

What Mercer does well is take students at the lower end of "acceptable" and in a short two years prepare them to do well on the boards and match at some competitive programs. Is this because of the "learn it yourself" mentality of PBL? I don't know...but I do know that unless you go to a 100% PBL school you have no grounds for an opinion one way or the other. You can say you think you'd hate it, but you don't know.

 

[Gut Shot]

Medical Journals of Australia?

Yes, the Medical Journal of Australia. There are intelligent and experienced people the world over who can survey the literature. If you have any problems with the analyses you should address them, not the name of the journal.

 

[nlax30]

Second, if you have not experienced a school that employs PBL as its sole curriculum for years 1 and 2 you don't really understand it. Attending a school that tries to mix PBL with lecture would probably make me go crazy too. However, Mercer has employed a PBL-only curriculum since its inception in 1982. Interviewees try their best to convince their interviewers that they'd fit will in the program. The interviewers, however, all know the same thing: not one person really knows what PBL is like. Why? Simply because no undergraduate institutions employ it as the sole curricular method.

How does the school present the PBL curriculum to prospective students? In the past here they've just had one of the faculty members make a presentation to the interviewees during the interview day. This past year they've been having interviewees sit in on PBL sessions which so far has gotten a pretty positive response. At least seems to help show the "mechanics" of it instead of presenting it just as an idea.

Over the next few years we'll hopefully start to see a little more statistics and research on it, but I just don't think there that much of that info out right now. Our main campus up in Erie has 3 pathways (traditional/lecture, PBL, and independent) and I want to say that they've seen similiar success between the lecture and PBL students in regards to board scores.

For me personally, I am horrible at, and do not like, just sitting down and memorizing slides and presentations. I need to read the book and put things into a larger context. And it keeps me interested to look at test results, try and explain what I would see and then integrate the basic sciences into what the tests say.

 

[GAdoc]

How does the school present the PBL curriculum to prospective students? In the past here they've just had one of the faculty members make a presentation to the interviewees during the interview day. This past year they've been having interviewees sit in on PBL sessions which so far has gotten a pretty positive response. At least seems to help show the "mechanics" of it instead of presenting it just as an idea.

Over the next few years we'll hopefully start to see a little more statistics and research on it, but I just don't think there that much of that info out right now. Our main campus up in Erie has 3 pathways (traditional/lecture, PBL, and independent) and I want to say that they've seen similiar success between the lecture and PBL students in regards to board scores.

For me personally, I am horrible at, and do not like, just sitting down and memorizing slides and presentations. I need to read the book and put things into a larger context. And it keeps me interested to look at test results, try and explain what I would see and then integrate the basic sciences into what the tests say.

Part of the problem schools like ours face is that regardless of how hard adcoms try to help applicants understand PBL beforehand, when most applicants come for an interview they have one goal in mind: get accepted. Due to college advisors, friends, sites like this, etc. most of them are smart enough to know the right things to say at the interview....

..."oh, yes Dr. Interviewer, I think PBL is the most amazing and innovative curriculum approach to ever come along and I know I'd just love it".

As I mentioned, if such a school is the one and only place you're accepted, you tend to have a very good attitude about it. Or, if you've ever actually lived and worked a day away from your parent's basement or a college dorm and have some real-world perspective, you tend to be more mature. In such a case, you suck it up and do your best realizing that ALL US schools are LCME or AOA accredited and will ultimately get you to the same goal. You also realize that biochemistry is biochemistry whether a Nobel laureate is teaching the class or not, or whether you learn it in a lecture setting or PBL setting.

On the other hand, a person could, for any number of reasons, have a large chip on their shoulder and pretend that because they had the option of several medical schools to choose from, their perspective on PBL must be the right one.

Now off my soap-box. The problem I'm getting at, is that an applicant will say anything to get accepted. In my opinion, wherever a person choose to attend, they should be humble enough to realize they took a spot that quite a few others wanted. Wherever one attends, whether a PBL, lecture, or a mixed school, they should do their best and realize that parts of ANY curriculum will suck. That's med school.

 

[bodonid]

Yes, the Medical Journal of Australia. There are intelligent and experienced people the world over who can survey the literature. If you have any problems with the analyses you should address them, not the name of the journal.

I agree. I had just never heard of them. Are they even peer reviewed?


Just kidding. I wasn't trying to insult your favorite journal or anything.

 

[bodonid]

The problem I'm getting at, is that an applicant will say anything to get accepted.

So right! I must have devoted 5min of each of my interviews at Mercer to why I would fit in with PBL. I had just heard of PBL a few weeks before that, and I had no clue what it was except a rough outline, and I wouldn't say I know enough to make an informed decision even now. Oh, well.

 

[Gut Shot]

I wasn't trying to insult your favorite journal or anything.

Then stay away from 1970's era Penthouse Letters.

 

[GAdoc]

So right! I must have devoted 5min of each of my interviews at Mercer to why I would fit in with PBL. I had just heard of PBL a few weeks before that, and I had no clue what it was except a rough outline, and I wouldn't say I know enough to make an informed decision even now. Oh, well.

Ha! Well...like I said, you're definately not the only one...everyone who ever applied (even those who really would choose Mercer over any other school) are somewhat guilty!

Earlier in the year I agreed to meet with SDNers who were interviewing at Mercer just to go over some Q&A. Of course, they're all worried about what to say as far as PBL. I tell them to not overdo it. The professors know better than anyone that entering students have no clue. Their job is to find people who will accept the curriculum, dig in, and do their best.

There are definately those in my class who hate PBL and take every opportunity to complain about it. As I insinuated in my last post, however, most of them fit into one of three categories (or all).

1. They really didn't want to go to Mercer, but weren't willing to reapply
2. They don't know what it feels like to apply three times and be rejected
3. They still feel medical school should be a continuation of some drunken frat party at UGA

As for me, my first goal is to be a doctor. Hopefully, when I'm a resident or beyond, I won't feel the need to browse the pre-med forum commenting about how much I hated PBL or any other aspect of my medical school. Bottom line: no matter where you go, if you're lucky enough to get in, your education is what YOU make of it.

 

[ufgrad00]

Did Gut shot attend a PBL school? I didn't see any reference that he did, just some smirky remarks at PBL and other posters.

Anyways, I am cool with going to a PBL curriculum. My time in first year will be divided into just about half the time to lectures and the rest of the time into forms of PBL (small group and large group 60+ students), as well as doctoring courses and preceptorships. I have the option to go to more traditional curricular tracks, but the capmus I am more comfortable with has PBL. Also, when I put it into perspective with how I am working a 9-5 now, a 2 hour small group PBL session twice a week is pretty good.

 

[GAdoc]

Did Gut shot attend a PBL school? I didn't see any reference that he did, just some smirky remarks at PBL and other posters.

Anyways, I am cool with going to a PBL curriculum. My time in first year will be divided into just about half the time to lectures and the rest of the time into forms of PBL (small group and large group 60+ students), as well as doctoring courses and preceptorships. I have the option to go to more traditional curricular tracks, but the capmus I am more comfortable with has PBL. Also, when I put it into perspective with how I am working a 9-5 now, a 2 hour small group PBL session twice a week is pretty good.

Thanks for pointing that out - I'm not launching a direct attack on anything Gut Shot said...everyone it entitled to their opinion. I'm just saying that PBL is a foreign concept that no one really knows about unless they've done it...that's why I get ill when I hear people talk about how much they THINK they'd hate it when they really have no clue. Or even worse - they attend a PBL school and then complain about it. Nobody forced them to go! Nor did anyone promise that med school would be easy.

Like you mentioned, the small group sessions (ours are 3 hours three days a week) are my favorite part. Medical school requires self motivation and LOTS of self-study regardless of the curricular style...so my preference would be with a school that allows me as much time as possible. Granted, at many schools lecture is not mandatory - but I get a whole lot out of those nine hours of group per week. Still, that's just me.

 

[MossPoh]

I had PBL for 4 years of undergrad already. My general experience is that you hate it while you're in it and appreciate it when you're done. You aren't supposed to have the knowledge base going in. You go and you read and figure the stuff out and try again. Board scores tend to be about on par. I haven't seen statistics studies on how the pbl students perform in clinical settings versus their counterparts. You aren't supposed to feel like you know the stuff. If you do, then medical school doesn't really serve much of a purpose anyway. You do have to be proactive. I have to admit. I HATE standard lectures. I like solving problems, and reading with a goal in mind. I kind of feel that PBL leads to a more secondary acquisition of the knowledge. You aren't reading so much to know the random facts for a test, as you are reading and learning the facts to apply to the problem at hand. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I despised PBL when I was in it. I felt like I never had any direction and they'd usually throw overwhelming problems at my group with little to no explanation. "Design an academic search engine" or "Make onstar service more efficient and cheaper to run. Here is your budget. Good luck" That gets really really frustrating, but you learn how to handle it pretty quick.

How does one approach something like that? First you have to learn about the underlying mechanics of the system. (sound familiar?) Then you kind of map out various processes you think may work and calculate the results in some manner. Find the best way. Rationalize the reason you chose it. It is a huge process that I just dumbed down to a few steps. I had a project plan that was 700+ steps with all sorts of things involved in addition to the steps. If we had problems we would read or contact a specialist in the field. (sound familiar again?) Oh, and sometimes the person hates your idea and you start from scratch. 😛 If you are good at just assimilating facts and sitting in lectures go one way. If you're like me and need some sort of finish line involved with the facts then PBL may work better. It just depends on the person! I can go more indepth with what my PBL involved but.......I don't feel like it this second. There is a lot about it on these boards anyway.

PS...your group you are stuck with can make or break the PBL meetings. You have to work as a team. If you have an obnoxious domineering person, a lazy person, or whoever else that clashes then things get a lot more frustrating. But, in traditional lectures you can get crappy professors as well. Who cares if they are an "expert" if you are asleep the entire time or they are a douchebag? So, it all comes down to the luck of the draw I guess.

 

[GAdoc]

I had PBL for 4 years of undergrad already. My general experience is that you hate it while you're in it and appreciate it when you're done. You aren't supposed to have the knowledge base going in. You go and you read and figure the stuff out and try again. Board scores tend to be about on par. I haven't seen statistics studies on how the pbl students perform in clinical settings versus their counterparts. You aren't supposed to feel like you know the stuff. If you do, then medical school doesn't really serve much of a purpose anyway. You do have to be proactive. I have to admit. I HATE standard lectures. I like solving problems, and reading with a goal in mind. I kind of feel that PBL leads to a more secondary acquisition of the knowledge. You aren't reading so much to know the random facts for a test, as you are reading and learning the facts to apply to the problem at hand. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I despised PBL when I was in it. I felt like I never had any direction and they'd usually throw overwhelming problems at my group with little to no explanation. "Design an academic search engine" or "Make onstar service more efficient and cheaper to run. Here is your budget. Good luck" That gets really really frustrating, but you learn how to handle it pretty quick.

How does one approach something like that? First you have to learn about the underlying mechanics of the system. (sound familiar?) Then you kind of map out various processes you think may work and calculate the results in some manner. Find the best way. Rationalize the reason you chose it. It is a huge process that I just dumbed down to a few steps. I had a project plan that was 700+ steps with all sorts of things involved in addition to the steps. If we had problems we would read or contact a specialist in the field. (sound familiar again?) Oh, and sometimes the person hates your idea and you start from scratch. 😛 If you are good at just assimilating facts and sitting in lectures go one way. If you're like me and need some sort of finish line involved with the facts then PBL may work better. It just depends on the person! I can go more indepth with what my PBL involved but.......I don't feel like it this second. There is a lot about it on these boards anyway.

PS...your group you are stuck with can make or break the PBL meetings. You have to work as a team. If you have an obnoxious domineering person, a lazy person, or whoever else that clashes then things get a lot more frustrating. But, in traditional lectures you can get crappy professors as well. Who cares if they are an "expert" if you are asleep the entire time or they are a douchebag? So, it all comes down to the luck of the draw I guess.

I stand corrected...I didn't realize any undergrad institutions used PBL. But let me ask, was every class you took at your undergrad institution integrated into one PBL model, or was it only your major classes (i.e. if you were a biomedical engineer was it only your biomedical engineering classes)?

What you said about group is absolutely true and I can't emphasize that point enough to anyone considering attending a PBL school. Those that do the best are those who learn to contribute to the group process appropriately (don't dominate but do actually open their mouths). Another good quality is thick skin...we don't like to be told we're wrong, but its better to hear it from a peer in group than on an exam. One thing I hated about lecture was not understanding something, feeling too embarassed to ask in a group of 100, and just letting it go.

In PBL, its all on you. You are responsible for learning what you need to know, but you are also responsible for not letting any of your group members fall behind. I guarentee that PBL schools have less (notice I didn't say "no") backstabbing and gunning than other schools. If you don't work together you don't succeed. However, there is plenty of guidance from the study guide and the faculty tutor. I think its a great way to learn.

 

[nlax30]

PS...your group you are stuck with can make or break the PBL meetings. You have to work as a team. If you have an obnoxious domineering person, a lazy person, or whoever else that clashes then things get a lot more frustrating. But, in traditional lectures you can get crappy professors as well. Who cares if they are an "expert" if you are asleep the entire time or they are a douchebag? So, it all comes down to the luck of the draw I guess.

The people in your group can definitely make each session more difficult if they aren't really to work together, or if someone just dominates. We rotate groups at least each semester so you get some time to get used to your group and develop those relationships, but if you are stuck with one or two people who just make it miserable then you know you won't be with 'em forever.

Luckily my past couple of groups have been terrific, same with the facilitator.

I have pretty thick skin and am pretty laid back so I don't really get offended if someone corrects me or doesn't agree with me. I have some friends though who are in groups where that isn't the case and they've had some inter-group arguments about what they should be reading and/or picking for the test.

I think during the interview process they also try to tweeze out how someone handles group pressures and conflicts as they will happen.

 

[MossPoh]

It was my major classes. Which, was essentially 2.5 years all day every day. I had about 4 classes at any given time with PBL per semester. Many of the classes tried to tie stuff together to some degree. Like, if they knew a lot of students were taking Java or some programming language then they'd try to find a way to use that in another class. Many times we were just a form of cheap labor for companies like IBM, Accenture, KPMG, and whoever else though. I did take some language classes that implemented a similar scenario but it wasn't outright PBL. Just incorporated team work to come to a reasonable solution.

 

[medking]

Absolutely, and that should take about two days.

......and maybe actually develop the ability to distinguish between what is important and what is not instead of being "spoon fed".

I would have to agree that lecture style is more efficient for the student, but I think PBL's develop the intangibles.

Basically, it's up to the student how they want to learn and what they want to gain.

 

[Gut Shot]

Did Gut shot attend a PBL school? I didn't see any reference that he did, just some smirky remarks at PBL and other posters.

No, my school was primarily traditional lecture with some M2 PBL worked in. I believe that incorporating problem based elements into a curriculum can be a valuable educational tool. Near complete reliance on PBL, however, has always appeared insane to me; another wide swing of the pendulous educational paradigm.

I did happen to be in graduate school at an institution that went from traditional to all PBL back in the late 1990's, and witnessed the change (and all its delightful effects) vicariously. I also now work with several people from PBL schools, and believe me, they have worse things to say about it than I ever would.

 

[Gut Shot]

I would have to agree that lecture style is more efficient for the student, but I think PBL's develop the intangibles.

I would offer that one spends almost all of one's career, from M3 to retirement, developing those intangibles. M1 and M2 are about the only time available to sit down and cram in the staggering amount of information necessary to call oneself "doctor." Memorization sucks, but I think that one has to develop some sort of knowledge base before starting the long road to practicing the art of medicine. Or maybe I'm just some crazy bastard.

 

[medking]

I would offer that one spends almost all of one's career, from M3 to retirement, developing those intangibles. M1 and M2 are about the only time available to sit down and cram in the staggering amount of information necessary to call oneself "doctor." Memorization sucks, but I think that one has to develop some sort of knowledge base before starting the long road to practicing the art of medicine. Or maybe I'm just some crazy bastard.

hehe, i like, like

Well, I guess if you think that way, then Traditional vs. PBL is not an issue. Both methods produce students that score decently well on the boards, and doctor's have a lifetime to gain the intangibles. It's just a question of how the student wants to approach his/her medical education. You could maybe say that traditional school graduates have higher averages on the boards, but then perhaps PBL school graduates have more intangibles straight out of school.

That being said, I don't see a point to this thread anymore, lol.

 

[GAdoc]

hehe, i like, like

Well, I guess if you think that way, then Traditional vs. PBL is not an issue. Both methods produce students that score decently well on the boards, and doctor's have a lifetime to gain the intangibles. It's just a question of how the student wants to approach his/her medical education. You could maybe say that traditional school graduates have higher averages on the boards, but then perhaps PBL school graduates have more intangibles straight out of school.

That being said, I don't see a point to this thread anymore, lol.

I agree. What are two years out of an entire career that is essentially a continuing educational process?

I would point out to Gut shot that there are some med schools (albeit only a few) who have relied solely on PBL since their inception and have no plans for changing. In such cases, I would call the philosophy of education more than a swing of a pendulum. Unfortunately, such schools are few and far between (in the US anyway) so there will never be substantial data to determine whether PBL is a better system.

Besides, we're all assuming that what we define as PBL is what everyone else defines it as. But, I bet the overall PBL-basic sciences curriculum at Mercer differs from the overall PBL-curriculum at another school.

At Mercer, our first two years are broken up into 12 six week "Phases", with each phase covering a system. Unlike traditional schools, we never go through an entire discipline from start to finish. In each phase we get the relevant biochem, cell bio, histology, genetics, pathology, physiology, anatomy, micro, etc. etc. For example, I'm currently in the "Neuroscience" phase. So, we get the relevant neuroscience, neuroanatomy, path, biochem, genetics, histo, embryo, pharmacology, and microbiology (i.e. bugs affecting the CNS and PNS). Our phases are organized around the cases of the PBL, but the organization of the curriculum into "phases" is really the selling point for me. When I get ready to take the boards, I won't have to dust off the biochem book...I will have just finished it - along with all the other disciplines!

 

[Gut Shot]

When I get ready to take the boards, I won't have to dust off the biochem book...I will have just finished it - along with all the other disciplines!

Yeah, just keep telling yourself that.

 

[GAdoc]

Yeah, just keep telling yourself that.

Just out of curiosity...why so cynical?

Do you think that your personal experience at your medical school, or even the experiences of the few residents you're around have given you an insight that is more valid than anyone elses?

I wasn't presenting an opinion...I was stating a fact: if you go to a school where the disciplines are taught from start to finish, at least three semesters will have passed between the time you finish biochemistry and the time you take the boards. At my school (the issue of PBL totally aside), every phase will contain some biochemistry, thus by the end of year two we will still be using our text to learn the biochem relevant to Endocrinology.

Thus, it is not something I have to "keep telling myself"; it is the way things are and have always been at my school. I wasn't commenting that our system is "better"; it is just a personal preference. At this point, I'm not even sure what you're trying to convince people of...

 

[Gut Shot]

Just out of curiosity...why so cynical?

I'm not cynical, internet communication lacks nuance, so I'm sorry if I came off that way. I simply don't think you (or anyone, for that matter) can truly appreciate the volume of material that is fair game on Step 1 until you have waded through it. There isn't a curriculum built that can keep it all poppin' fresh in your head come game day.

 

[GAdoc]

I'm not cynical, internet communication lacks nuance, so I'm sorry if I came off that way. I simply don't think you (or anyone, for that matter) can truly appreciate the volume of material that is fair game on Step 1 until you have waded through it. There isn't a curriculum built that can keep it all poppin' fresh in your head come game day.

That's a fair statement...and I ultimately agree wholeheartedly with what yous said: There isn't a curriculum (PBL or otherwise) that will be the "silver bullet" for scoring over 250 on the boards. I think the curriculum is simply a personal matter that reflects the varying ways people learn the same information. Ultimately, success will depend on how much work the individual puts in.