PBS Frontline - For Profit Universities

[KillerDiller]

Someone with an IQ of 140 should probably understand that, given a normal distribution, the vast majority of people practicing in any doctoral level profession do not have IQs reaching or exceeding 140. Unless, of course, you're talking about those chintzy online IQ tests.

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[PsychGraduate]

Someone with an IQ of 140 should probably understand that, given a normal distribution, the vast majority of people practicing in any doctoral level profession do not have IQs reaching or exceeding 140. Unless, of course, you're talking about those chintzy online IQ tests.

I was being sarcastic. What follows is meant to serve as an illustrative point. Maybe I should include a few analogies like what the GRE presents; dunno though, so perhaps. What I mean is >90% (more like > 95%) of all psychologists who currently practice are not qualified to practice at all. I am precluding most people from being qualified to practice, making online versus traditional begin to look like a moot point. Most PhD's know very little about what they did their dissertation on. Now, the criteria is more involved than just the distribution of intelligence quotient, or even the theoretical G we hear so much about. I am only referring to IQ tests approved by the APA and administered by professionals. Of course I also implied that most psychometricians may not be qualified. Now, of course I am being too idyllic, so we must allow those with lower IQ's to practice and some may have great skill sets that more than compensates for their lower IQ scores.

Training is important. When and where did I say that some training is not? In Cali we need 3000 hours whether APA accred or not. Obviously quality of internships greatly vary. There is great variance within and among trad and non trad uni's and several outliers in both directions on a bell shaped curve if we are to continue to assume normality. We can get an average, or mean of quality of trads and non trads but it is very misleading unless we use proper weighting. Anecdotal claims on either side are meaningless of course so how can we conduct a study to analyze the data properly? We can pick a trad school and non trad school and compare, but what do we compare, well, we already know a trad school has higher APA placement rates so that is not in dispute,but that is not an evaluation of educational quality. GRE's are not either; the GRE is junior high academic questions with a few twizzles... what parameters should we set and what statistical methods should we apply... where would our CI's be set at and what would be the resulting margins of error? I have some ideas to get both qualitative and quantitative off the ground floor... any takers?

 

[PsychGraduate]

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/intelligent.aspx

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Many for profits turn out to be cheaper actually. Some in terms of cost per credit and credit load and others simply due to the money saved on transportation, eating on campus and so forth. Pursuing higher education can be time manageable and not sacrifice educational quailty. Many of my posts here in SDN prove that point. And as you stated many times undergraduates do not receive much if any training. The PBS video deals with mostly undergrads and some graduate students. You really ought to watch the video in its entirety.

That isn't a logical argument. The tuition cost at for-profit universities can be 2x (or more!) expensive than a traditional education. I looked up two respected state universities in my area (University of Kansas and Kansas State) and compared them to three of the most popular for-profit universities (Walden, University of Phoenix, and Capella).

-All of the below information is tuition only for a BA in Business Administration (one of the most popular undergraduate majors).

-Geographic restriction is a common reason given for people to pursue a for-profit education, so I'm going to assume the person cannot relocate and thus be a local and have access to in-state tuition.

-The traditional universities use 3-credit hour courses, while the for-profit programs use different credit hour requirements, which "hides" the true cost of each class. I tried to break out the information to compare apples to apples.

Kansas State
$222/credit hour
$666/typical class (3-credit hour)
$3114/semester
$6228/year
$25,000 for 4 years

University of Kansas
$262/credit hour
$786/typical class (3 credit hour)
$3937/semester
$7874/year
$31,500 for 4 years

Walden
181 quarter credit hours for a degree
$260/quarter credit hour
$47,060 for 4 years

Capella
180 quarter credit hours for a degree
$265 (100 & 200 level), $345 (300 & 400 level)
$3,948/quarter (per their FA helper)
$7,896/semester (per their FA helper)
$15,792/year (per their FA helper)
$54,900 for 4 years

University of Phoenix
120 credits hours for a degree
$550/credit hour
$66,000 for 4 years

Now this example has no correlation or relevance whatsoever. Online undergrdaute may be like that but at graduate level is not. The online graduate students get the same training traditional students do for the most part though there are some outliers and cutting corners. Training is good to a point but after a short while either you get it or you do not...

The different but equal argument does not make sense considering many programs sell on, "don't have time for traditional university? Do our program and still work, raise a family, etc." Less time, less face to face, and yet the same education? I'm not saying it isn't possible for a student to go above and beyond the requirements and learn more, but for the "average" student it is quite different.

I do not want to see psychologists with IQ's below 140 and who have not underwent immense struggles practicing at all in the clinical arena... and forensic psychology, what a political game for that matter with all those state to state variations and ethical codes which do not do anything for the one being assessed.

The IQ, "struggle", and variance argument are three unrelated Straw Men, propped up to distract from the fact that the vast majority of all clinical psychology graduates are not <5%'ers. We aren't finalists for astronaut training or a who's who of Jeopardy winners. Most psychology graduate students are of average to above average intelligence, are hard workers, and yes...often have to sacrifice things to pursue graduate training.

5k? What community college are you referring to? NCC and SCC cost more than that.

I looked up a local CC (Johnson County), and they currently charge $69/credit hour for county residents and $84/credit hour for locals living outside of the county. My friend teaches for BCCC (Baltimore) and they are pricey at $100/credit hour.

No, the APA while a worthwhile organization is not the minimum standard for quality. The APA is as you said a "quasi government" organization trying to remain as independent and objective as possible, but by your own admission they want to save money and cut corners and not offer top quality accredited programs. Fielding is non-profit, so how did you orignally lump them in?

APA-acred. was set as the "minimal level of training" for university doctoral programs in psychology. Since then alternative acred. have popped up, all with lesser standards than the APA. So while they are not "minimal" standards now, that is how they started. Do we really want to aim as low as legally possible?

P.S. psychology is VERY easy to learn and practice, if your IQ is above 140 and you really care about helping others and you have had a rough life; a psychologist with an easy life and money does not truly understand the client.

I'm not sure if/where you are doing your training, but I find the above to be offensive.

I know the P.S. seems condescending, ill spoken or a rant, but it is not hard to learn how apply SCIDS, WAIS, MMPI, etc... and properly interpret.

Administering and interpreting aren't terribly hard, but the challenge to psychological assessment is INTEGRATION. It isn't hard to score a WAIS, but most non-doctorally trained psychologists (and some doctorally trained psychologists) cannot adequately integrate the data effectively. There is a large difference between scoring out of a book, and actually understand what each sub-test assesses and how that impacts other areas. A properly trained psychologist understands the nuances of the assessments.

Psycho therapy is learned by doing it. All the mentor does is fill a few gaps asess your overall skills and weaknesses, signs off on your competency and lets you loose in the wild as long as you are not majorly nuts or grossly incompetent.

No. No. No. Therapy is first learned in theory, then learned under supervision, and then after that it is learned in independent practice. Reducing the mentor/supervisor to a "quick fix" person is insulting to anyone who has been a mentor/supervisor.

A little training takes care of any gaps in skills and so forth... also stop worrying about the reputation to others, like those in medicine, as they are mostly on the pay roll of the pharmaceutical companies... medical school is dumbed down too.

The reputation of others directly effects the rest of us. Let's look outside of the field. The NBA does not have a great reputation. Any idea why....because a handful of players who cannot behave appropriately get generalized to the league. The same thing happens in other professions. Car dealers. Insurance salesmen. etc.

Your doctor most likely cannot interpret the meta analyses he/she looks at or much data for that matter... the biochemistry in medical school is a joke compared with undergraduate! The cell biology in medical school is like HS biology compared with undergraduate biology where there is actually more training in the labs, so stop with the using of other professions to compare them, as they are not the same, equal or serving psychology as a profession as models at all.

This is....nevermind.

 

[PsychGraduate]

That isn't a logical argument. The tuition cost at for-profit universities can be 2x (or more!) expensive than a traditional education. I looked up two respected state universities in my area (University of Kansas and Kansas State) and compared them to three of the most popular for-profit universities (Walden, University of Phoenix, and Capella).

-All of the below information is tuition only for a BA in Business Administration (one of the most popular undergraduate majors).

-Geographic restriction is a common reason given for people to pursue a for-profit education, so I'm going to assume the person cannot relocate and thus be a local and have access to in-state tuition.

-The traditional universities use 3-credit hour courses, while the for-profit programs use different credit hour requirements, which "hides" the true cost of each class. I tried to break out the information to compare apples to apples.

Kansas State
$222/credit hour
$666/typical class (3-credit hour)
$3114/semester
$6228/year
$25,000 for 4 years

University of Kansas
$262/credit hour
$786/typical class (3 credit hour)
$3937/semester
$7874/year
$31,500 for 4 years

Walden
181 quarter credit hours for a degree
$260/quarter credit hour
$47,060 for 4 years

Capella
180 quarter credit hours for a degree
$265 (100 & 200 level), $345 (300 & 400 level)
$3,948/quarter (per their FA helper)
$7,896/semester (per their FA helper)
$15,792/year (per their FA helper)
$54,900 for 4 years

University of Phoenix
120 credits hours for a degree
$550/credit hour
$66,000 for 4 years



The different but equal argument does not make sense considering many programs sell on, "don't have time for traditional university? Do our program and still work, raise a family, etc." Less time, less face to face, and yet the same education? I'm not saying it isn't possible for a student to go above and beyond the requirements and learn more, but for the "average" student it is quite different.



The IQ, "struggle", and variance argument are three unrelated Straw Men, propped up to distract from the fact that the vast majority of all clinical psychology graduates are not <5%'ers. We aren't finalists for astronaut training or a who's who of Jeopardy winners. Most psychology graduate students are of average to above average intelligence, are hard workers, and yes...often have to sacrifice things to pursue graduate training.



I looked up a local CC (Johnson County), and they currently charge $69/credit hour for county residents and $84/credit hour for locals living outside of the county. My friend teaches for BCCC (Baltimore) and they are pricey at $100/credit hour.



APA-acred. was set as the "minimal level of training" for university doctoral programs in psychology. Since then alternative acred. have popped up, all with lesser standards than the APA. So while they are not "minimal" standards now, that is how they started. Do we really want to aim as low as legally possible?



I'm not sure if/where you are doing your training, but I find the above to be offensive.



Administering and interpreting aren't terribly hard, but the challenge to psychological assessment is INTEGRATION. It isn't hard to score a WAIS, but most non-doctorally trained psychologists (and some doctorally trained psychologists) cannot adequately integrate the data effectively. There is a large difference between scoring out of a book, and actually understand what each sub-test assesses and how that impacts other areas. A properly trained psychologist understands the nuances of the assessments.



No. No. No. Therapy is first learned in theory, then learned under supervision, and then after that it is learned in independent practice. Reducing the mentor/supervisor to a "quick fix" person is insulting to anyone who has been a mentor/supervisor.

Theory is learned within 2-5 months if one studies a lot like I did. Doing 8-22 hours a day of studying takes care of that. Supervisions is important so a year of internship is sufficient with 500-1000 hours of practica preceding it and then some quasi - supervision and you are good to go for MOST cases. Some axis II and co-morbid cases are not for the newbie or faint of heart. I put in just about the same hours you did.
Exccesive, but understandable in terms of ethics and legal considerations.

The reputation of others directly effects the rest of us. Let's look outside of the field. The NBA does not have a great reputation. Any idea why....because a handful of players who cannot behave appropriately get generalized to the league. The same thing happens in other professions. Car dealers. Insurance salesmen. etc.

That is a fact, when I refer to the horridness of medical school, and not am opinion or an interpretation. You brought up medical schools and medicine several times


This is....nevermind.

You forgot about transportation costs. You forgot about dorming costs. You forgot about moving costs. You forgot about costs of leaving a job and relying upon just finacial aid or maybe a little work study. You forgot about human factor costs in general besides financial. You are young I think; still in your 20's? I could be wrong but I think so. Did your parents help you financially through school?
Yeah these schools are higher in price and you get what you pay for which is:

1.) Convenient schedules to go online and do your work, not a free license to your work whenever you want. For example for a paper one day late at Walden University there is a minimum of 3 points deducted and for papers not written in full APA format, properly there is anywhere from a 2-7 point deduction.

2.) Except for tier 1 schools Walden Unievrsity has a superior research library with far more books, peer reveiwed journals and so forth due to its partnerships with several non-profit Uni's like: Indiana University and UC Berkeley to name just 2. WU actually sponors and has peer reviewd journals of its own.

3.) Students who are not up to par with traditional students in grad programs do not pass WU or Capella, or Fielding which is non-profit need I remind you?

4.) The opportunity to learn in a modality that works really well with the modern mind and the evolving brain connected through rigorous online learning/teaching modalities; this is not Facebook or Myspace blogging. This is serious collegiate work.

5.) If you do not have a car and cannot afford one, and get accepted to sevearl non-trad schools that only give a 10,500-15,000 stipend and you are married even without kids that is not a very realistic move unless your spouse can find work in that area or you live close by and can take/afford public transportation.

Come to think of it Harvard offers a psychology masters now through its extension program where all of the tests are proctored so are they bad too? Only 1900 per class.

To go to online school then you also make many sacrifices and choose the school that is the best fit.

Columbia and Arizona University also offer excellent non profit online educations and Columbia is only around 630-800 a course However, their library and delivery system is sub-par as is San Jose State's same system. Some state Uni's are superb on and off campus but MANY just plain suck in terms of educational quality.

 

[PsychGraduate]

Let's say you take the bus everyday to and from school and the cost round trip is 4 dollars. Due to this that and the other you must travel to school 5 days a week. That equates to: $4.00 * 7 = $28.00 * 40 = $800.00 a year alone. $800 * 4 years = $3200.00 alone. This hypothetical model assumes you do not need to use trains and traveling to and from school alone. It also assumes a degree in exactly 4 years without any variable circumstance that inhibit graduating in four years. Now factor in the cost of books at an average of $70.00 per textbook since you may get an older edition or use an internet servive to purchase a textbook more cheaply. Assume 40 classes = 120 credits but for 10 classes you do not need to buy textbooks and for 5 you get them really used and pay like 5 bucks each. Thus: 25 * $70.00 = $1750.00. Thus $3200.00 + $1750.00 = $4950.00. This is low balling it but some outliers will spend even far less than this on textbooks, however, most people who travel to school even 10-15 miles will spend more than that on gas per week so this is a good rough estimation method. Also since this hypothetical student has a 120 IQ and wants to do well and is maintaining a 3.75 GPA, (rougly average based upon this blog's discussions and many psychology majors who do well in trad schools I know) he/she will probably purchase most textbooks and perhaps even some other study aids. Thus to recap thus far let us take Uni of Kansas: $31,500 for four years + $5,000 (rounded up by 5 bucks) = $36,500. Now, social psychological, many marketing/media psychological studies, some statisics course based studies and my own obervations (and some common sense I think, no?) take into account the fact that students who attend a Uni tend to buy food and beverages from the school cafeteria, many overpriced vendot machines and proximal delis usually, but not always a little pricier to take advantage of hungry students/ heavy coffee drinkers, cramming for mid-terms. let us suppose that an average student only spends 20 bucks a week on all of the aforementioned during the first half of the year for the first 2 years of school. This equates to: 20 * 20 = $400.00. Let us now say that the cost per week goes up around and after mid terms with heightened stress while studying or cramming to 25 bucks a week which equated to: $450.00. These are very low mean estimates to estimate for outliers. Some students do not eat while at school or they brown bag it but most students do not think ahead like that. The pay out now is: $850.00 per year. This does not include summer or winter acclerated sessions for 4 year undergraduate state Uni's. Thus $850.00 * 2 years =
$1700.00. Adding $36,500 + $1750.00 = $38,250.00. Of course the student knows he or she can sell most of the textbooks back for around 50% of the money back. The student also gets granst to help pay so that can be figured out based upon EFC. However, with gas prices as they are and with all the driving and potential repair costs that $36,500 - $38,250.00 price tag could be between: $39,500 and $48,000 in total if not more and this is being very conservative with the range of $9,500. This is assuming the student wants to go to Kansas Uni, gets in, finds the classes and has professors he or she fits well with, or lives in Kansas!

If they have to dorm financial aid will not usually cover 100% of the dorming costs, although lets say the student was a superstar in high school and gets some scholarship dough to cover it, so it is not a concern. Still, the student is going to probably spend some extra money on arrival to check out the sites, though maybe limited, but I dunno, and to go out to eat and purchase some new Kansas uni clothes or other clothes... etc. In the state of NY you will find that most schools are far more expensive, even some state, but many private schools are the ones that students want to get into to stand out in both psychology and biology based psychology. Now in CA Berkeley and Stanford are very cheap; around the price of a state school for CA residents which is cool, but these are far more difficult to get into Matter of fact Stanford is quite impressive with 25 libs and approximately $12,500-$15,000 a year tutition; grad school is around that range as is their med school too.

Suddenly $47,000 for 4 years looks good with a lib better than a state Uni's, books that although are not the identical ones to the class requirements, are so close you never have to buy a textbook unless you really want to; rare online courses base the course more directly from the textbook, but usually even for undergrad you will be using 5-30 + resources in addition to a textbook of some kind in addition to questions, additional references and mini lectures provided by the professor of the class or a videotaped guest speech from an outside expert, in the particular field. This is not always the case and some classes have fewer references but in recent years the undergrad classes have evolved to mimick grad course structure and grad class formats have improved considerably in the online modality.

If you are extra bright and motivated and take impeccable notes and can navigate the web real well you may not need to purchase too many textbooks for a 4 yeat stat uni, however, studies and my observations both show that the higher scoring students in these state uni's tend to buy their textbooks even if indigent. That is a central tendency, and not absolute.

Nassau Community College is around 120 a credit and their textbooks are expensive and financial aid strudents tend to borrow the max amount of loans and get the max on grants since Nassau county is the 6th richest county in the country,but has many poor students who can only get into NCC at first even if they have the smarts to go to state or private schools (many of course will not graduate and will default with $10,000 or more in loans).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Theory is learned within 2-5 months if one studies a lot like I did. Doing 8-22 hours a day of studying takes care of that. Supervisions is important so a year of internship is sufficient with 500-1000 hours of practica preceding it and then some quasi - supervision and you are good to go for MOST cases. Some axis II and co-morbid cases are not for the newbie or faint of heart. I put in just about the same hours you did. Exccesive, but understandable in terms of ethics and legal considerations.

"Cramming" in hours isn't how theory is learned. The value in doctoral training is the immersion and learning over time. Classes are spread out because learning happens inside and outside of the classroom, often while in lab, in practica, and in study groups. As for training and supervision....there are reasons why it is over years and requires close observation. A student may assume they can do it alone, but that is why they are the student, and their supervisor is responsible.

You forgot about transportation costs. You forgot about dorming costs. You forgot about moving costs. You forgot about costs of leaving a job and relying upon just a stipend. You forgot about human factor costs in general besides financial. You are young I think; still in your 20's? I could be wrong but I think so. Did your parents help you financially through school?

If anything the cost is MORE for online students because they have to travel to the "Seminar" weekends/weeks/etc. You still need to pay for housing, transportation, etc...regardless of the program attended.

As for my personal situation...no, I'm not in my 20's; this is a second career for me. I formerly worked as a consultant for DotCom and healthcare companies, and I've been financially independent for quite some time.

1.) Convenient schedules to go online and do your work, not a free license to your work whenever you want. For example for a paper one day late at Walden University there is a minimum of 3 points deducted and for papers not written in full APA format, properly there is anywhere from a 2-7 point deduction.

APA formatting is expected for an undergraduate paper, so I'm not sure why that would even be an issue for graduate-level work. Late papers are also an anomaly, as there can be extenuating circumstances, but it is assumed the student is an adult and they are responsible for handing in their work on time. My policy is to drop a letter grade for every day late, and others do not accept late work.

3.) Students who are not up to par with traditional students in grad programs do not pass WU or Capella, or Fielding which is non-profit need I remind you?

One data point is EPPP pass rate and average scoring. The 2006 report can be found HERE.

5.) If you do not have a car and cannot afford one, and get accepted to sevearl non-trad schools that only give a 10,500-15,000 stipend and you are married even without kids that is not a very realistic move unless your spouse can find work in that area or you live close by and can take/afford public transportation.

Not everyone is meant to pursue graduate training, though many students find a way to make it work, often with families and/or challenging financial situations.

 

[PsychGraduate]

"Cramming" in hours isn't how theory is learned. The value in doctoral training is the immersion and learning over time. Classes are spread out because learning happens inside and outside of the classroom, often while in lab, in practica, and in study groups. As for training and supervision....there are reasons why it is over years and requires close observation. A student may assume they can do it alone, but that is why they are the student, and their supervisor is responsible.



If anything the cost is MORE for online students because they have to travel to the "Seminar" weekends/weeks/etc. You still need to pay for housing, transportation, etc...regardless of the program attended.

As for my personal situation...no, I'm not in my 20's; this is a second career for me. I formerly worked as a consultant for DotCom and healthcare companies, and I've been financially independent for quite some time.



APA formatting is expected for an undergraduate paper, so I'm not sure why that would even be an issue for graduate-level work. Late papers are also an anomaly, as there can be extenuating circumstances, but it is assumed the student is an adult and they are responsible for handing in their work on time. My policy is to drop a letter grade for every day late, and others do not accept late work.



One data point is EPPP pass rate and average scoring. The 2006 report can be found HERE.



Not everyone is meant to pursue graduate training, though many students find a way to make it work, often with families and/or challenging financial situations.

I realized that you were providing undergraduate tuition prices and not graduate tuition prices, hence I edited my response just prior to this last post of yours, so apologies there and traveling would not be a factor at all for non-trad undergraduate students at all. I do see data that shows few APA accreds out of WU and other for profits but usually that is not the point, however,, in light of the latter CV's I posted from WU graduates (not the former; first one) you can see they are equal in qualifications.

I agree that on average there are higher state APA test attempts and thus more people typically passing the test and at times quite good percentages. That is not the point here.

With many of my graduate students there are issues with APA citation and this is for those in trad classes in addition to non trad classes, though certainly not all. Typically I do find my online students in grad school have better writing skills on average, but there are some trad students who are at the highest % as well, so I do not put down their writing but unless you are a top state or Ivy League student there are many issues with technical and some with APA citation and if you are honest you will admit this too. I am glad you were financially well off prior to majoring in psychology, but many are not that fortunate, so just for a minute think about those aspects.

My wife does healthcare consulting, used to do billing and coding and now also sells websites while she does her communcations major online and she has developed great skills from both the school, her work experience and recent developments. I know healthcare is a real complex issue

I know I stated that community colleges are overloaded but I do recommend people start with community college first to figure out what they want to do or save some money if they are good students.

I did a mix of education and I am glad I did. I experienced a few non profits and a few for profits. I have had good and bad experiences with both. I have had good teachers and bad teachers with both.

Life is but a dream...

 

[PsychGraduate]

I do realize that I am a bit of an anomaly. I was not the typical student period. I realize we do not know each other. I did go with more than 1 route as I did not want to limit myself. CA is good until atleast 2013 with current "approved schools," however, they are strict in requiring clocked hours and a PhD too, while some are less stringent with hours and allow some practice with a master's, but require APA accred across the board to fully actualize a PhD.

 

[aequitasveritas]

#2. Increasing the number of APA-acred sites is not the solution. The problem is not demand-side...it is supply-side. My solution admittedly introduces a moderator to cap access to sites, but this is in direct response to a lack of control on the supply-side.
.

IDK about that. APA lost over 250 sites last yr due to economic downfall. I think in general there may need to be a certain expanse in APA sites. This may need to be strategic, meaning that certain areas of the country have few psychologists per capita and some areas are saturated. APA may want to affiliate with the the national mental health loan forgiveness system and set up sites in these needy areas with the understanding that the interns will work there for a few yrs afterward. I hate saying the word but...synergy.