PCOM 2008 or DMU 2008?

[Billy33]

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New to the forum but have been reading for a few weeks. Been accepted to both schools, absolutely love both of them, but can't decide what to do. Both very well established, great reputations, great programs, students at each school don't regret anything about choosing the one they did, etc......the list is too long. Philly has so much history and tradition in medical education but Des Moines is just a great area and the "city" seems to revolve around the medical school and is more community oriented, and has a much smalled OMM class (1:1 ratio). Anybody have any advice, or stuck with the same dilemma😕

 

[isomerjohn]

PCOM rules

 

[group_theory]

From an unbiased source 😉

GO TO PCOM!!!!!

Philadelphia is a great city with many things to do (Art Museum, Clubs, Mutter Museum, Independence Hall/Liberty Bell, Professional Sports teams, etc)

PLUS

It is just a short train/bus/car ride to NYC, Washington DC, Atlantic City/Jersey Shore, Poconos, Baltimore, etc.

You have a very tough choice. Both PCOM and DMU are great schools w/ lots of history. Best of luck in your choice.

 

[gruzia]

when thinking of all the entertainment that philly offers, and how close it is to so many other great cities, keep in mind that your ability to enjoy any of those things will probably be curtailed by the fact that you're going to be studying way too much to really go out that often....so choose the school on the basis of the school.....that DMU has such a great ratio in OMM lab is a great plus...half the time in lab is spent going "Well, I don't feel that, and not that, what am I suposed to be feeling, again?" so to have someone be able to work one on one with you is an incredible help, esp. if you are seriously thinking of practicing manipulation.
Also, consider class size...PCOM class of 2007 has about 250 students... is that something you're comfortable with?
Also, the administrative running of PCOM is not the most efficient...we've had teachers not show up for class and students sit there and wait for hours with not a word of what's happening from anyone.

 

[Katie1822]

Ok, I'm biased too. I'm a 3rd year at DMU. I just wanted to throw in my two cents worth. DMU has a pretty good tradition too since it is the 2nd oldest osteopathic school. Right now the construction is a pain but that will mostly be done in 2005. One warning though, DMU doesn't have much smaller class size than Philly. There would be about 200 DO students but you also take most of your first year courses with the DPM students. . .which makes the grand total 250. Des Moines is not anywhere near as exciting as Phillidelphia but again, how much of it are you going to see? There aren't cornfeilds in the middle of the city but the city is surrounded by them 🙂 Anyway, congratulations. Its a lovely feeling to be in the position to choose!

 

[kaplanm79]

So gruzia you don't really like PCOM? I was accepted to both PCOM and DMU this year, and decided to pick PCOM over DMU. Based strictly on the schools I thought that DMU's staff appeared to be very friendly and helpful, but their facilities were not as modern as PCOM (I didn't like DMU's lecture room, it was flat not set up like an auditorium, so if your in the back rows it might be difficult to see the lecture). My impression from the students was that DMU does have a strong focus on OMM (so strong some students suggested that if you didn't have a strong interest in OMM you might not want to go there). As far as class size I thought DMU had around 200 and PCOM 250, I don?t know if that?s a big difference. A major deciding factor for me was that all my friends and family are in Philly, and although I know I will be busy with school most of the time I like the idea of being in area I?m familiar with, and friends and family close by. Gruzia is the 250 class size bad, what other problems do you have with PCOM.

 

[group_theory]

Originally posted by kaplanm79
So gruzia you don't really like PCOM? I was accepted to both PCOM and DMU this year, and decided to pick PCOM over DMU. Based strictly on the schools I thought that DMU's staff appeared to be very friendly and helpful, but their facilities were not as modern as PCOM (I didn't like DMU's lecture room, it was flat not set up like an auditorium, so if your in the back rows it might be difficult to see the lecture). My impression from the students was that DMU does have a strong focus on OMM (so strong some students suggested that if you didn't have a strong interest in OMM you might not want to go there). As far as class size I thought DMU had around 200 and PCOM 250, I don?t know if that?s a big difference. A major deciding factor for me was that all my friends and family are in Philly, and although I know I will be busy with school most of the time I like the idea of being in area I?m familiar with, and friends and family close by. Gruzia is the 250 class size bad, what other problems do you have with PCOM.

Can't speak for Gruzia, only myself

Regarding class size - My high school class was huge, my undergrad was larger, so a class size of 250 doesn't bother me =)

With regards to OMM at PCOM ... the class is divided into 4 sections, and each section is divided into smaller sections, so that there is around 1 OMM fellow or professor per 10-15 students.

When I interviewed at DMU, my impression was that they focused heavily on OMM. I think it is the pride and joy of the school.

In regards to things to do outside school ... believe it or not, you will have a life outside med school. YES, you will spend a lot of time at school, and a lot of time studying at home/school/library/coffee place, but you will also have some free time. Believe me, enjoy your free time or else you might go insane. A trip to the museum, or the ballpark might relieve some stress. Or skip class one day and going to the Jersey shore on a nice summer/spring day. Or go to NYC for the weekend after an exam. A possibility - on a nice sunny day (either saturday or sunday), go out to Valley Forge or Gettysburg, sit on a grassy field and study (or picnic with your friends ... then group study)

Good luck w/ your choices - you are picking between 2 great schools and I know it will be a difficult decision. But doesn't it feel great having this difficult decision?

Group_theory

Completely unbiased 😉

 

[luckystar]

While DMU does hold its OMM department in the highest regard, I'm sure most students don't feel as if we are forced to be thoroughly enthusiastic about everything. The high level of commitment to learning the material stems from the fact that the teaching is so good that there is no room to complain. So far, I've only heard one person wishing that she didn't have to spend so much time on OMM, but then, this same person said the same thing about anatomy and med school in general 🙂 We really don't spend too much time on OMM...like most other schools, the major time consuming classes for first year are anatomy and physiology.

Good luck on your decision! Choose wisely 😉

ps - Hi Katie!!! Hope your rotations are going well! Do get in touch with us when you'll be back in town 🙂

 

[gruzia]

PCOM is OK. It's not that I don't like it, its that for all the hype i heard about it, it did not really live up to my expectations. The class size depends on how comfortable you are in big groups...i don't really care but if you want your teachers to know you more, if you want more of a family type atmosphere, then you'd want to consider how many students there are.
My problems with PCOM are, like I said, administrative....for close to 32 grand a year, we were changing in the hallways for anatomy...men, women together in various forms of undress with teachers and janitorial staff walking by....we had an assembly about sexual harrassment and quality of life type stuff and the head of the department that deals with those matters didn't even know that we didn't have any kind of locker rooms. How you can be unaware of what 250 people under your responsibility are doing for four days a week, for about three months, is beyond me. Also, the whole lack of communication about teacher attendance is pretty annoying...we had a prof not show up for a required lecture, and he never apologized for this or gave any reason after the fact,...tests take forever to get out, despite the fact that they're multiple choice and scantron! some professors don't even bother checking what they lectured us on and asked questions on tests that we've never seen before, the omm department in disorganized, takes them forever to get tests back to us and when you have questions about a technique, depending on who you talk to, you get a dozen different answers which isn't helpful come test day. Also, administration tends to treat us like children...recently they put traffic lights in the hallway to monitor noise level (green for OK, red for too loud) as if we're incapable of responding to verbal requests (though they've since, thank God, been taken away)
I know a lot of this sounds not so huge, but it adds up to a general feeling of being treated without any respect. And, like I said, for the reputation that PCOM has and for the money I'm putting in, it's dissapointing.

 

[Katie1822]

Sorry to borrow this forum this way, but I'm going to. Jane, I'm off to Michigan, Texas, and Kanas for about 8 months. I'll look you guys up when I get back for Step 2 boards. You'll be second years by then....digest that 🙂 And one word of advice for physiology, there is no shame in a 70%.

Katie

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by gruzia
PCOM is OK. It's not that I don't like it, its that for all the hype i heard about it, it did not really live up to my expectations. The class size depends on how comfortable you are in big groups...i don't really care but if you want your teachers to know you more, if you want more of a family type atmosphere, then you'd want to consider how many students there are.
My problems with PCOM are, like I said, administrative....for close to 32 grand a year, we were changing in the hallways for anatomy...men, women together in various forms of undress with teachers and janitorial staff walking by....we had an assembly about sexual harrassment and quality of life type stuff and the head of the department that deals with those matters didn't even know that we didn't have any kind of locker rooms. How you can be unaware of what 250 people under your responsibility are doing for four days a week, for about three months, is beyond me. Also, the whole lack of communication about teacher attendance is pretty annoying...we had a prof not show up for a required lecture, and he never apologized for this or gave any reason after the fact,...tests take forever to get out, despite the fact that they're multiple choice and scantron! some professors don't even bother checking what they lectured us on and asked questions on tests that we've never seen before, the omm department in disorganized, takes them forever to get tests back to us and when you have questions about a technique, depending on who you talk to, you get a dozen different answers which isn't helpful come test day. Also, administration tends to treat us like children...recently they put traffic lights in the hallway to monitor noise level (green for OK, red for too loud) as if we're incapable of responding to verbal requests (though they've since, thank God, been taken away)
I know a lot of this sounds not so huge, but it adds up to a general feeling of being treated without any respect. And, like I said, for the reputation that PCOM has and for the money I'm putting in, it's dissapointing.

I'm in 100% disagreement.

 

[group_theory]

I'm sorry gruzia and njdesido are not enjoying themselves at PCOM. I myself am having a blast here =)

OK ... addressing some of the issues

Class size

I do feel the class size is a little big at time. This is quite evident during some mandatory lectures when it appears there are not enough seats available. However, most of the time I am comfortable with the size in a regular lecture, where there are plenty of empty seats to be had.

Changing in anatomy

This was an issue that was brought to the attention of the administration very late in the first trimester. The administration was under the impression that it was fixed last year (boys on one floor, girls on another). Apparently there were some miscommunications. Human Resources said that the issues will be resolved, too late for our class (2007), so hopefully for the next class (2008).

Classmates

Like any schools, your classmates will come from different background, experiences, cultures, etc. Some will be from the military, others from years of healthcare experiences, and others still fresh from college. To refer to my classmates as "white culturally ignorant PA hicks" is a great disservice to them and is absolutely untrue. Might I suggest you get to know your classmates more ... find out about their background, their history. There are many fascinating stories to be heard.
Also, i'm sorry your anatomy lab partners were jerks. I do agree, there are some jerks among our classmates.

Absent Professors

While the administration tries to remind some of our clinical faculty (whose offices are off-campus) of their lectures, there have been some glitches. I think we miss 3-4 lectures in the first trimester and only 1-2 in the second. The system isn't perfect and it is frustrating when professors don't show up. However, the admin is working on this issues and I will give them credit for that. I usually just use the new found "free time" to study.

Changes in curriculum

This year's curriculum is different from last year. Last year (class of 2006) they had anatomy and cell/tissue at the same time. This year, they split anatomy and cell/tissue. From talking to the second years, our schedule is much better compare to what they experienced. This was thanks to inputs and feedbacks from the class of 2006. So the curriculum is evolving.

taking forever to get our test back

Yep. True. I personally don't mind but I do have friends and classmates who are frustrated by this. It's mainly a departmental admin issue (Cell and Tissue are fast, OPP is slow, anatomy in between in terms of return time for our tests). What can I say except complain and raise issues with this if it really bothers you.

Traffic Lights

Yes, it was a stupid idea. I'm glad they removed it. (to be fair, we were quite loud outside the library before they installed the traffic light)


Oh - there is a dean's lunch 2-3 times a trimester where you can raise any issues you have with him and Students Affairs. Of course, you can always go to Students Affairs if you have any complaints.


All these complaints are legitimates and should be raised with the administration. Remember that wherever you may go (or could have gone), there will always be some issues that need to be addressed. The grass is always greener on the other side.

Well, that's my viewpoint and input, for what it's worth.

Enjoy the holidays =)

Group_theory
"Giving inaccurate and wrong information since the dawn of time"

 

[indymed]

njdesido,

I am going to be a first year next fall at PCOM. I am also and Asian Indian and was under the impression that PCOM would be a very diverse environment. Is this not true? During my interview day I noticed many different people among the students there. I would hope a school in an urban center such as Philadelphia would be more diverse. Here is hoping you are mistaken about the assertion that the student body is homogenous.

 

[group_theory]

I have visited many schools - MDs and DOs (some on interviews, some just to visit friends) in various regions of the country

The sad reality is that what you have just described is typical of most medical schools. In fact, to be honest, one reason why I choose PCOM over other schools is partly based on the fact that it is more diverse than schools I have interviewed. I fear that since you "settled" for PCOM, you view med school through a very different (more negative) perspective. It is quite unfortunate. However, it was ultimately your choice to go to PCOM instead of reapplying to UMDNJ-SOM. I do hope, in the future, that you will start to see PCOM in a more positive light ... otherwise, your 4 years here will be miserable. Otherwise, the grass will always be greener on the other side of the Delaware River.

Also, in the future, many of our colleagues (docs, nurses, techs, etc) will be "white, Christian and Pro-America" and some even with born-again Christian mentality. This will be true whether it is in NJ, PA, or even CA (though I expect there will be more diversity in CA). Part of medical education isn't just learning facts, figures, and the science of medicine. Part of medical education is also learning how to deal with people who are different than us ... some we might even find disagreeable.

Enjoy the holidays

 

[gruzia]

i realize that there is always that kind of recourse..ie go to administration, dean's lunch, etc if you have complaints, but quite frankly, it's ridiculous that one of the oldest med schools in america hasn't ironed out such basic issues as changing rooms, curriculum, test reporting, etc. They've only had what, over a hundred years to get it right?

 

[tokie]

i agree 100% with njdesi!

PCOM is a reversion back to high school. annoying bake sales and social events that omit any sophistication or intrigue. most of the student body are white and of the unsophisticated background. i know some students who have announced their fear of venturing into the city! for god's sakes, go back to your corn fields!

being around these type of people gets tiresome and annoying.

 

[Billy33]

well, since i started this thread, i should probably say that i decided to go to PCOM. it was extremely tough to decide. i'm not a city boy, but i have lived outside of philly my whole life. both schools are incredible, but the deciding factor for me was the opportunities given just b/c of the area. with so many other medical schools, the top hospitals in the country, etc. i would have been dumb not to take advantage of what philly has to offer when it comes to education. besides, living in a city for a few years can only make you more aware of the diversity of the country. the clinical side of pcom is much better at pcom than dmu just b/c of the population difference b/w the 2 cities. and philly has an exorbatant amount of $$$ (just look at tuition, or both the new stadiums, etc.) so you know the facilities, technology, and so forth are all top notch. i'm excited! GO EAGLES!

 

[haujun]

To Njdesido: Your complaint indicate that you "may be" fat, ugly, antisocial, anti-american, pro-satan worshipping medical student who are failing classes like ANATOMY...Time to study for remedial examination. Hmm, I am glad I am not around you.. . There is one HUGE negative aspect of having big class in the medical school--there is always a possibility of a psycho seeping thru crack. I am sure your classmates are aware of your feeling.

 

[haujun]

I think you should seriously thank PCOM for having a big class size. SERIOUSLY...If it wasn't for big size you may have NOT been there...What makes you so special?? And for other complaints about not having opportunity to dissect, changing in the bathroom etc.... Do you want a tissue paper?! Seriously, you are experiencing an easy part of medical education. As a doctor you will be expected to face and handle very difficult and emotional problems. Grow up.