PCOM: crappy clinical years

[tokie]

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i heard from residents (Pcom alumni) and tons of med students in the philly area that PCOM's clinical years are horrible!

i think i will be giving up my acceptance.

plus, nobody bothers to refute the fact that the clinical yrs are a big zero.

 

[Fenrezz]

So what was it? You didn't like the lunch they offered during your interview? What's with the belligerence?

 

[F/A-18]

What do you mean by horrible rotations? I am concerned too. I have tried to get some info on this, and what I have so far is that loosing their hospital has been big loss and that some of their teaching, attendings and such aren't the best, but I'm not sure that all of the rotations are that great at amy of the schools. You have some ggod ones and some poor ones were ever you go. However, I have the feeling that PCOM is not the school it once was, but I think you will get a good education there. Although I couldn't verrify their board scores or their residency placements either. Medical school is dependent on what you put into it, but board scores are reflective of how well the teaching is reaching the average student and it does play a large part in determing your resisendcy.

 

[milunn]

now i may not be the one to reply since i haven't started rotations yet but i will throw in my info concerning them....

I do know that all of the rotations that I have gotten have at least an intern and in most cases both an intern and resident are there....and those are the core rotations for PCOM. Granted they are not the biggest hospitals in Philadelphia......but it is still Philly in which the smalllest hospitals are much larger than the largest community hospitals. Granted a lot of the rotations have to do with the intern and resident and the amount of time they have to teach you or willingness to do so......I will say that PCOMs core rotations do not follow a preceptorship where all you have is the attending...and as we all know they do not have all the time in the world to teach us. Hence, if you want to learn you will.

In closing, i am wondering where the people are getting their info......obviously it is not from PCOM people themsleves. PCOM used to be well represented in this forum but has fallen under...maybe that is because most of us have started studying for the boards (yes, I said it and who knows what the pass rate is and nobody really knows so don't make that part of your decisions in choosing a school...because no one really knows) meaning no pre med will be able to tell you the scores and exactly where people have matched.....the eternal questions among premeds

I just hate when people bash certain schools w/out backing up the info.....I have be around long enough to know that you must back up what you write......and as of right now I have written what I know....and what I know is a hell of a lot more than most concerning PCOM.

michael

PCOM 2005

 

[tokie]

i do have info to back up my statement. i work for a surgeon at penn who also operates at DCMH (he's is both academic and private practice; he's 66 - that was back when they could do this), PCOM residents are under him and I interact frequently with them due to the nature of our research projects.....Every single PCOM resident (4/5 of them who had gone to PCOM) directly told me that the 3 and 4 yr clinical rotations were not good......a drawback to the school.

PCOM was high on my list, but these concerns are too important to ignore.

Most of the backers of PCOM in this forum are only 1st and 2nd years. I have not seen anything from 3 and 4 year students.

 

[milunn]

true, most of us on this board are 1st and 2nd years.....but I am also saying that the interactions I have with my friends who are 3rd and 4th years nearly everyday....they do say that some are not as good as others and to stay away from those....but as a whole they have have said nothing but good things. I do applaud your search for answers and believe that is what these boards are intended for. However, I guess no one will really know if a certain rotation is good until you, yourself have been on the service.

michael

 

[DrQuinn]

Here you go. I am a 4th year DO student, who just successfully matched into an MD Emergency Medicine Residency. I go to NSUCOM, not PCOM, however.

You will be hard pressed to find a DO school with better 3rd/4th year resources than PCOM.

Whoever is the "know-it-all" that has the "facts," remember that general surgery residents TEND to be the more critical and complaining out of all residents. Most surgery residents also look down upon most rotations that are not surgery. I know this very well because I am friends with several people matching into top MD GS residencies.

PCOM is an excellent school with great training. I would have chosen to go there had I been accepted there. In my opinion, it is one of the better schools out there.

I met several PCOM students while I was up there interviewing, and doing an EM elective in downtown Philly... the only bad thing they had to say about PCOM was the politics (which is at EVERY DO school), and the traffic to some rotation sites can be long. They thought their training was very good. And most have matched at their top 3 choices.

I have been a member of SDN for four years now... and it still amazes me how much pre-meds or 1st/2nd years "think" they know about a school's education system or its "reputation." Deep down, I hope that whoever is considering to drop PCOM from their application/acceptance goes somewhere else. You will not be content no matter where you go. Such is the nature of your beast.

Q

 

[milunn]

thanks quinn...i was looking for someone with more experience to add some information.....and you came through. congrats on matching!!!

michael

p.s what hospital were you at in philly??? just curious

 

[DrQuinn]

I was at Albert Einstein Medical Center, in Philadelphia. They have a 4 year dually accredited Emergency Medicine Residency. It is a very strong program, but wasn't quite what I was looking for.

Thanks for the kind words.

Everything comes down to this... you have to use this website with reservations. Take ALL that you read/hear on this website, and average it all together. You're going to have people to the extreme, saying "PCOM is a $hitty school, they have horrible X"... while others will say "PCOM is the best school on earth, XCOM sucks." Average it all together and form your own opinion. Unfortunately, as a DO student, you can only form one opinion about one school, the one you go to. And the other 180 people in your class will have very different opinions.

BTW, I work with a doctor who's cousin knows the girlfriend of a resident at PCOM, and they said that the biochemistry there is horrible. I am thinking of not accepting an acceptance there because of this.

Q

 

[tokie]

YOur

 

[tokie]

Your facetious comments are ill spent. I've been very thorough and careful about deciding which med school to attend. For some of you who are relegated to the unkown programs, the best option seems to be of exploring illusions of grandeur.

FYI, Einstein is a poorly reputed hospital in the Philly area; I HIGHLY DOUBT it has a competitive EM program. For EM, MCP is a stellar program. As you seem vying for programs absorbed in mediocrity, you have no place to lecture anyone.

Go back to tanning down there.

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by tokie
Your facetious comments are ill spent... As you seem vying for programs absorbed in mediocrity, you have no place to lecture anyone.

Go back to tanning down there.

hello, pot! 🙄

 

[milunn]

dr. mcgee is the doc in charge of the EM residency at Einstein and is an awesome teacher in the small little Emed sessions that I am currently enrolled. I can't imagine what he is actually like in the hospital.

Tokie i just don;t know why you are so adamant about bashing PCOM....and then you you ask quinn not tol ecture anymore....when she has brought nothing but good to these boards and we shuld be the ones shutting because she is the one that has matched and has already been through medical school...i believ she knows more than you or I. So you doubt that einstein has a competitive program......I DOUBT PCOM really knew who they were accepting


michael

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by tokie
Your facetious comments are ill spent. I've been very thorough and careful about deciding which med school to attend. For some of you who are relegated to the unkown programs, the best option seems to be of exploring illusions of grandeur.

FYI, Einstein is a poorly reputed hospital in the Philly area; I HIGHLY DOUBT it has a competitive EM program. For EM, MCP is a stellar program. As you seem vying for programs absorbed in mediocrity, you have no place to lecture anyone.

Go back to tanning down there.

*sigh*

I debated whether or not to jump on this. But I will.

I will let your pre-med visions of what makes a "competitive residency" sit in your head, since at your stage of the game (as with 99% of other pre-meds) have no idea what to look for in a RESIDENCY.

Your tone of voice and the way you have posted all your messages on this board show me one thing. That you would only be happy at places like Harvard, Yale, or Georgetown. I mean, who would wnat to go to medical school at a place like the University of Maryland (that has the best trauma services in the world... but its obviously a place of mediocrity). Or USF in Tampa that has one of the best cancer centers in the Southeast.

AEMC is a good hospital. They have very good training there. The EM residents have scored 100% on their board certification for the past several years (no other residency that i can think of off the top of my head can say that). Just because the surgeon you work with doesn't like AEMC does not mean it is a place of poor training.

What do YOU know about medical education? What makes you think you know what makes a great residency or what makes a hospital so great?

Form your own opinions, but remember, at your stage of the game, your opinions about medical school and reputation of hospitals is not based on your own scrutiny, it is based upon the people that you have contact with... the "surgeon" that you work with and the residents with him.

Further down the road as you get near the end of medical school, you will realize what is important in the school you choose, and in the residency that you choose. It is different for each and every one of us.

There will always be a certain few, though, that like to rank programs and talk about reputation... that's fine, I've dealt with several people along the way that are like you. I hope that you get out of your mood, though, and realize that you don't have to be at MCP or Drexel or Pitt to have a good education.

In Emergency Medicine, Johns Hopkins is not a very good program. It really isn't. But people go there for the name. Inferior training, poor pathology... but good name. If that's what you want, follow your dreams. Don't apply to PCOM. Go to MCP. But obviously you weren't accepted as you are considering PCOM (since you went to UPenn at undergrad, a school with a "great" reputation).


Q

 

[DrMom]

fyi, milunn

Quinn is a guy, he just has a girl for his avatar.

(don't worry, I recently made a similar mistake about another SDNer)

 

[ussdfiant]

Originally posted by group_theory
I live in Philly (not some silly suburbs).

Watch it buddy!

 

[bobo]

I will bite on this, even though the original poster sounds like a shmuck. I am finishing up my third year at PCOM. A list of their affiliations can be found here .

For the record, MCP is an absolute dump. I would not take my dog there to have his @ss wiped. The facility is decrepit, hospital half-empty, nurses surly, equipment shoddy, computers stink out load, and the list goes on and on.

The 3rd year has been very weak in my experience. it all boils down to the fact that PCOM doesn't pay the docs to teac (this was discussed in fascinating detail long ago in a thread by "Adrianshoe"). Rather than list specifics, I will say that I have been to a number of the hospitals on the PCOM list. Many times the attendings don't even acknowledge your presence. The lack of formal teaching is astounding. At many places there is no formal noon conference (at MCP it sucks, they are always having technical problems with the feed from Hahnemann). One rotation in particualr at MCP, on the famous (in PCOM circles) Dr. K's service - there is little teaching, hardly any cardiology patients, most of the patients are post-neurosurgery. Great, huh? On some rotations (ie medicine at Parkview) you spend all night admitting patinets when you are on call ( to other people's services). Guesss what, you do the H and P, and pass it off so someone else does the assessment and plan (the most valuable learning part).

In defense, there are some good spots. Lehigh Valley is nice, there you will rotate side by side with Penn state and other medical students. Chestnut hill is nice, but like many other rotations, there is no continuity of care - you work with a bunch of private attendings. Sometimes you get lucky and get a private attending who loves to teach.

So take it with a grain of salt. I haven't gotten a great clinical education, but I read a ton and am just trying to learn the basics. We all know that the real learnign takes place in intership and residency.

bobo

 

[DrQuinn]

I can atleast vouch for part of what Bobo says...

For ALL DO schools, none of the third or fourth year attendings are paid. That is the DO tradition. Perhaps there may be controversy about that, but that is not at issue here. Your rotations are very attending dependent (and for that matter, resident dependent if there is barely an attending there).

MD schools PAY their third/fourth year attendings to teach to medical students. The DO system has rejected that. (All volunteer).

Q

 

[nanato]

first off tokie , you need to wake up and smell the coffee, after you growup.
you have no idea... no idea... blowing hot air...but it's ok, you'll be put in your place soon.
mcp ER... mediocre at best.... especially compared to the other hospitals in the city....i would go the AEMC over MCP in a heart beat.
3rd and 4th years are what you make of it, no matter if you're at pcom or harvard... if you're a lazy ass, you're a lazy ass anywhere. if you put in 110%, you'll get 110%. so buck up kid, it'll soon be show time... and everyone will see whatcha got!

 

[tokie]

riiiiiight.