PCOM or allopathic?

[JohnCarterIIIDO]

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To be completely honest, I've only read through about half the thread... regardless, I can't help but respond to this:

First off, I am a DO student attending a very reputable DO school (ATSU - KCOM) I'm very proud to be a DO and very glad I made the decision I did despite my alternatives.

Secondly, any MD who says, "MD is superior to DO," or, "MD's are always picked over DO's," is being naive. I'm not going to say it doesn't happen or that some amount of biased doesn't still exist (thanks to those still caught in the misleading mindframe of the late 60's, early 70's), but each year that bias is growing further and further diluted as people realize both sides are good at what they do. Despite what some may want to think, in today's world, DOs and MDs do in fact work side by side, frequently without anyone being the wiser, and we contribute to the growth and developement of each other's professions. It won't be long before that bias is irradicated, and on that day, maybe the trash-talkers will finally learn the meaning of the words "respect," "humility," and "professionalism."

That goes both ways... DO's who trash-talk MDs are no better. The fact of the matter is that we each have a lot to learn from each other... and we are.

As for which school to go with... when you ask, "DO or MD?" There are some important considerations. To be completely honest, even I have to admit it, currently, it is easier to specialize as an MD (mostly because of old-guard physicians). When I say this, it's FAR from impossible to specialize as a DO (particularly if you want to go into anatomy-heavy field such as radiology, ortho, most surgical fields, ect... the anatomy emphasis of the DO is pretty useful here), and I have many friends in the DO world pulling it off without a hitch. That being said, if you have any trouble holding your grades up, you will be selected against.

For any sort of general practice, DO is fantastic. DOs have a wonderful reputation in general practice and are extremely capable to handle multi-functional clinics. This doesn't mean MDs aren't good at general practice (anyone knows it's pretty easy to get a general-practice residency), but I'd be remiss to not mention the fact that certain efforts are being put forward by many leading allopathic institutions that nod to more osteopathic approaches.

U of A vs. PCOM? Both are outstanding facilities. Both have a great reputation... and I actually have friends at both... niether of which I've ever heard complain (beyond the typical, "med schools hard... ect"). I really don't think you'd be dissapointed either way.

Best of luck to you in your decisions, and enjoy your last few months of "freedom." 😉 We'll see you on the other side.

Best,

Jennifer Bubel
ATSU / KCOM - OMS I

P.S. - To all my colleagues, DO and MD alike, I look forward to working with you in the future.

👍

 

[2012mdc]

You kids need to pass your first medical school exam before you stroll in here and dispense your oh-so-thought-out-and-logically-sound advice.

Going through the match process now and I agree with the "kids"

Going MD keeps more doors open.

I didn't run into a single DO applicant on the rads trail and most programs I interviewed at had 0-1 DO residents out of 30-60 total.

And rads is competitive but it's not super competitve like derm, ortho, plastics, uro etc.

 

[SpecterGT260]

To be completely honest, I've only read through about half the thread... regardless, I can't help but respond to this:

First off, I am a DO student attending a very reputable DO school (ATSU - KCOM) I'm very proud to be a DO and very glad I made the decision I did despite my alternatives.

Secondly, any MD who says, "MD is superior to DO," or, "MD's are always picked over DO's," is being naive. I'm not going to say it doesn't happen or that some amount of biased doesn't still exist (thanks to those still caught in the misleading mindframe of the late 60's, early 70's), but each year that bias is growing further and further diluted as people realize both sides are good at what they do. Despite what some may want to think, in today's world, DOs and MDs do in fact work side by side, frequently without anyone being the wiser, and we contribute to the growth and developement of each other's professions. It won't be long before that bias is irradicated, and on that day, maybe the trash-talkers will finally learn the meaning of the words "respect," "humility," and "professionalism."

That goes both ways... DO's who trash-talk MDs are no better. The fact of the matter is that we each have a lot to learn from each other... and we are.

As for which school to go with... when you ask, "DO or MD?" There are some important considerations. To be completely honest, even I have to admit it, currently, it is easier to specialize as an MD (mostly because of old-guard physicians). When I say this, it's FAR from impossible to specialize as a DO (particularly if you want to go into anatomy-heavy field such as radiology, ortho, most surgical fields, ect... the anatomy emphasis of the DO is pretty useful here), and I have many friends in the DO world pulling it off without a hitch. That being said, if you have any trouble holding your grades up, you will be selected against.

For any sort of general practice, DO is fantastic. DOs have a wonderful reputation in general practice and are extremely capable to handle multi-functional clinics. This doesn't mean MDs aren't good at general practice (anyone knows it's pretty easy to get a general-practice residency), but I'd be remiss to not mention the fact that certain efforts are being put forward by many leading allopathic institutions that nod to more osteopathic approaches.

U of A vs. PCOM? Both are outstanding facilities. Both have a great reputation... and I actually have friends at both... niether of which I've ever heard complain (beyond the typical, "med schools hard... ect"). I really don't think you'd be dissapointed either way.

Best of luck to you in your decisions, and enjoy your last few months of "freedom." 😉 We'll see you on the other side.

Best,

Jennifer Bubel
ATSU / KCOM - OMS I

P.S. - To all my colleagues, DO and MD alike, I look forward to working with you in the future.

having not taken MD curriculum, how do you say that DO training is more anatomy oriented? I was told by a chiropractor that they take more neuro than we do as well.... it may be emphasized in your program, but that doesnt mean that you have more than another program. Subway employees focus on sandwiches, but that doesn't mean they have more sandwich making experience than a fry cook.

at risk of inciting a riot..... this has always just been something i've wondered about when talking to other healthcare professionals. I hear how they are more preventative, holistic, or experienced with a particular system than MD's are but don't really have a good basis for this. A large component of allopathic training is dr-pt interaction, prevention, and we even do an appropriate amount of looking at alternative treatments. These questions usually arise in my head when I take my occasional study break and see comments online from friends and acquaintances in DO schools saying "man, I thought they said med school would be hard!". And while I am busy busting my ass ~6 days a week I stop and wonder what sorts of things could allow the training to be the same level of difficulty and also allow someone with a ~6pt mcat and ~0.35 gpa deficit dance circles around me in the academic arena all of a sudden.....

 

[Dharma]

These questions usually arise in my head when I take my occasional study break and see comments online from friends and acquaintances in DO schools saying "man, I thought they said med school would be hard!". And while I am busy busting my ass ~6 days a week I stop and wonder what sorts of things could allow the training to be the same level of difficulty and also allow someone with a ~6pt mcat and ~0.35 gpa deficit dance circles around me in the academic arena all of a sudden.....

In med school and still bringing up the MCAT and college GPA huh? You don't hear big leaguers talking about their minor league stats, because they mean jack $hit once they've served their purpose. Get over your minor league stats; they got you to the next level, you're there, now move on.

I also find it interesting how you call out one student on making assumptions about MD curricula when said student never attended an MD institution, although within a few sentences you commence to do the same in regards to DO institutions. Intelligent.

 

[Dharma]

BTW genius, you're avatar is the wrong symbol... unless trade and commerce is your thing.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

In med school and still bringing up the MCAT and college GPA huh? You don't hear big leaguers talking about their minor league stats, because they mean jack $hit once they've served their purpose. Get over your minor league stats; they got you to the next level, you're there, now move on.

I also find it interesting how you call out one student on making assumptions about MD curricula when said student never attended an MD institution, although within a few sentences you commence to do the same in regards to DO institutions. Intelligent.

There is inadvertently a correlation between mcat/gpa and performance in medical school, as well as with step one performance. You don't hear big leagues talking about their minor league experience because there is no conversation, they are all the best top ~25%. I mean an average of 31 on the mcat = pretty much everyone is within the top 25%, a 26.5 = a little bit below the average of all test takers.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

having not taken MD curriculum, how do you say that DO training is more anatomy oriented? I was told by a chiropractor that they take more neuro than we do as well.... it may be emphasized in your program, but that doesnt mean that you have more than another program. Subway employees focus on sandwiches, but that doesn't mean they have more sandwich making experience than a fry cook.

at risk of inciting a riot..... this has always just been something i've wondered about when talking to other healthcare professionals. I hear how they are more preventative, holistic, or experienced with a particular system than MD's are but don't really have a good basis for this. A large component of allopathic training is dr-pt interaction, prevention, and we even do an appropriate amount of looking at alternative treatments. These questions usually arise in my head when I take my occasional study break and see comments online from friends and acquaintances in DO schools saying "man, I thought they said med school would be hard!". And while I am busy busting my ass ~6 days a week I stop and wonder what sorts of things could allow the training to be the same level of difficulty and also allow someone with a ~6pt mcat and ~0.35 gpa deficit dance circles around me in the academic arena all of a sudden.....[/QUOTE]

Responding out of order, but nonethless:
1. The people at DO schools prancing around talking about how easy it is are either A.) Lying
or
B.) Brilliant
That, or they're coasting through somehow and will likely fail their boards lol.

Osteopathic education is absolutely NOT easier and I feel as though I can reasonably this because I have many many friends in allopathic programs that I discuss things with regularly, DO students regularly sit for the USMLE and do just fine (please, no statistics about pass rate, etc because the fact is, most do just fine). I often feel like we have a big challenge because we have to spend more hours a week in both OMM lecture and lab and you must find a way to balance studying the manipulation stuff with your other studies.

2. I really don't think you can rightfully say that osteopathic curriculum is not more anatomy oriented than allopathic. It's neither here nor there, not an issue of superiority of course, but OMM is VERY anatomy intensive. A lot of things that I learned in first year anatomy would have likely fallen to the wayside had it not been for my OMM class. You are constantly having to dredge up details from anatomy and apply them. In order to develop strong palpatory skills, knowing each and every little intricacy is often necessary. I think by default if the topic is "emphasized" like you said, that would imply that there is "more," but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. A more appropriate way to make the assertion about the anatomy though might be to say that osteopathic training very much provides a stronger background in neuromusculoskeletal medicine. Many of the topics that we'll spend 3 and 4 hours of lecture on may only get one hour of lecture, if even that much.

3. I'm just gonna throw it out there...I worked in the restaurant business for about 8 years prior to starting medical school...and the sandwich artist DEFINITELY has more sandwich making experience than the fry cook of another restaurant. Unless, that is, that fry cook previously spent a longer period of time than the subway sandwich artist learning the art of sandwich making and then proceeded to keep up his sandwich making skills once converting a fry cook 🙂

Just some thoughts...I see where you're coming from, but I think the anatomy experience is actually one of the more striking features of the osteopathic education, as opposed to the typical "holistic" comments and whatnot that usually get made about the differences.

 

[Dharma]

There is inadvertently a correlation between mcat/gpa and performance in medical school, as well as with step one performance. You don't hear big leagues talking about their minor league experience because there is no conversation, they are all the best top ~25%. I mean an average of 31 on the mcat = pretty much everyone is within the top 25%, a 26.5 = a little bit below the average of all test takers.

The correlation is weak (with verbal showing the strongest link, albeit still weak), but correlations are not my point. The point is that medical students still running around talking about MCAT scores and undergrad GPAs for any other sake but advising a pre-med are lame.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The correlation is weak (with verbal showing the strongest link, albeit still weak), but correlations are not my point. The point is that medical students still running around talking about MCAT scores and undergrad GPAs for any other sake but advising a pre-med are lame.

Actually Biological science section is an R of .6, Physical science section = .55, Verbal = .45.
That is a very strong correlation in respect to human beings and behavior.

I think it's a useful tool to look into one's probability of making it through medical school/ passing the usmle etc. It's gone, but it's still good for probabilities. Not to bar outliers of course, but that's a different story.

 

[Dharma]

Actually Biological science section is an R of .6, Physical science section = .55, Verbal = .45.
That is a very strong correlation in respect to human beings and behavior.

Source?

Those numbers are not very strong either.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Source?

Those numbers are not very strong either.

I don't remember the source, ask LizzyM I think she has it in her favorites. Also, this is not chemistry, nor is it biology, this is behavior and in behavior an R of over .35 is strong. This is a very powerful correlation between MCAT and USMLE performance. Point being is that sure, you're absolved of your record once you enter graduate education, but your undergraduate scores are a big predictor of future performance, to the dismay of many people.

Most of medicine is also relatively low in its R values, probably an R =.5 is strong.

 

[guitargrl]

First, congrats on getting admitted. I agree with so many that you should consider East Coast cold vs. Arizona great except for awful summers. Hopefully you have visited both during their extremes...that can help. Next, do you have a feel for what field of study?. If it were family practice, I can tell you my husband went to an Osteopathic School, did an osteopathic internship, then did a Family Practice residency within an allopathic environment. It makes his CE credentialing more complicated, but he decided to cover his bases. And please look at specialists....osteopaths can do ANY field allopaths can. If you have ever visited an osteopath who actually works with osteopathy, you may learn a lot. After each pregnancy I had, my husband could do gentle manipulation to relieve gas pains....no exotic medications needed. I may seemed biased, but I am not. Either way you go, it isn't easy. But osteopathy was created by an allopathic physician who lost 3 kids to meningitis (obviously before antibiotics) and had been curing himself for migraines in an unusual, but what ended up with him inventing the osteopathic technique. And it is not glorified chiropractic.
Who knows where America's medical system will end up. We have met many M.D.'s who now want to learn some osteopathic techniques. I would definitely find one in your area, if you haven't already decided. Whether you do internal medicine or surgery, you may find patients appreciate the hands-on approach. The big problem everyone faces, will you get paid for the (no pun intended) extra touch?
Congrats again and good luck!

 

[SpecterGT260]

In med school and still bringing up the MCAT and college GPA huh? You don't hear big leaguers talking about their minor league stats, because they mean jack $hit once they've served their purpose. Get over your minor league stats; they got you to the next level, you're there, now move on.

I also find it interesting how you call out one student on making assumptions about MD curricula when said student never attended an MD institution, although within a few sentences you commence to do the same in regards to DO institutions. Intelligent.

I did not. i listed a few observations of individuals and published stats....

the only statement I implied was that the stereotypes between the two schools are baseless. It is usually touted by people insecure in their chosen path (and your obvious offense is evidence of this)

and my avatar is fine. it is not the rod of asclepius (rod w 1 snake and no wings) which is the traditional medical symbol, but the Caduceus was adopted by army medical personnel as their symbol and is used (albeit inappropriately if you are a purist) across the US as a stand-in for the "rod". dont worry about me, i know the ins and outs of the symbol. actually talked a friend out of getting it as a tattoo (mostly because this friend was air force rather than the medical issue). but given it's use and it's overall increased badassness over the rod I like it just fine thankyouverymuch 😉 and given your arrogance I appreciate how you just assume that I couldnt have other aspects to my life such as commerce.

 

[MIAYO]

There is inadvertently a correlation between mcat/gpa and performance in medical school, as well as with step one performance. You don't hear big leagues talking about their minor league experience because there is no conversation, they are all the best top ~25%. I mean an average of 31 on the mcat = pretty much everyone is within the top 25%, a 26.5 = a little bit below the average of all test takers.

I'm pretty sure the average is a 32 which is the top 10-11% of test takers. I guess that means the average person accepted into allopathic would be more like being in the first round draft. The average MCAT score last year was a 25.1 so future DO's are scoring above average. They also deserve to be drafted.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Responding out of order, but nonethless:
1. The people at DO schools prancing around talking about how easy it is are either A.) Lying
or
B.) Brilliant
That, or they're coasting through somehow and will likely fail their boards lol.

Osteopathic education is absolutely NOT easier and I feel as though I can reasonably this because I have many many friends in allopathic programs that I discuss things with regularly, DO students regularly sit for the USMLE and do just fine (please, no statistics about pass rate, etc because the fact is, most do just fine). I often feel like we have a big challenge because we have to spend more hours a week in both OMM lecture and lab and you must find a way to balance studying the manipulation stuff with your other studies.

2. I really don't think you can rightfully say that osteopathic curriculum is not more anatomy oriented than allopathic. It's neither here nor there, not an issue of superiority of course, but OMM is VERY anatomy intensive. A lot of things that I learned in first year anatomy would have likely fallen to the wayside had it not been for my OMM class. You are constantly having to dredge up details from anatomy and apply them. In order to develop strong palpatory skills, knowing each and every little intricacy is often necessary. I think by default if the topic is "emphasized" like you said, that would imply that there is "more," but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. A more appropriate way to make the assertion about the anatomy though might be to say that osteopathic training very much provides a stronger background in neuromusculoskeletal medicine. Many of the topics that we'll spend 3 and 4 hours of lecture on may only get one hour of lecture, if even that much.

3. I'm just gonna throw it out there...I worked in the restaurant business for about 8 years prior to starting medical school...and the sandwich artist DEFINITELY has more sandwich making experience than the fry cook of another restaurant. Unless, that is, that fry cook previously spent a longer period of time than the subway sandwich artist learning the art of sandwich making and then proceeded to keep up his sandwich making skills once converting a fry cook 🙂

Just some thoughts...I see where you're coming from, but I think the anatomy experience is actually one of the more striking features of the osteopathic education, as opposed to the typical "holistic" comments and whatnot that usually get made about the differences.

thanks for the levelheaded response without getting butthurt lol. Some people act as if a forum like this is designed solely to cultivate and pamper pre-conceived notions rather than have your opinions and thoughts challenged

I do see how the anatomy argument has more basis than such things as bedside manner ect. I just think it is an inappropriate assumption. in allopathic schools we do not go over anatomy once and forget it. it just strikes me as hypocritical to see all of the conversation about how physicians are physicians and it doesnt matter what letters you have, and then see all these lines of distinction being drawn.

and I think the USMLE pass rates have value to discussion, but I don't think it is appropriate to apply numbers to the individual. lower pass rates are probably due to lower acceptance standards (it makes sense that people who struggled more relative to peers in another group will continue to do so). however the silver lining that I think gets overlooked is that with a majority (and increasing through the steps) pass rate it is inappropriate to judge someone as inferior simply due to the letters preceding the name. I may be alone in this but I think most rational and least insecure approach to the differences is to knowledge the effect lowering admission standards has on downstream stats and understand that this does't necessarily impact quality of education or ability of the individual.

and before i get called out for changing my argument - i previously only stated that I didnt think the assumptive differences had merit and then asked for justification of a few observations.

but Grace, thanks for addressing the questions and statements. to all the butthurt posters, if someone is ignorant it is simply a better approach to openly discuss misconceptions than to attack them.

 

[SpecterGT260]

There is inadvertently a correlation between mcat/gpa and performance in medical school, as well as with step one performance. You don't hear big leagues talking about their minor league experience because there is no conversation, they are all the best top ~25%. I mean an average of 31 on the mcat = pretty much everyone is within the top 25%, a 26.5 = a little bit below the average of all test takers.

i would disagree with your reasoning. you don't hear it discussed because at this stage of the game you are in it for yourself and all the pre-med competitiveness just seems silly. i.e. i dont care if someone did better than me on the MCAT just like I dont care if someone does better than me on my next test. what matters is that I pass (and passing by a bunch is fun too 😉)

however yes, there are published studies I have seen in the past which correlates MCAT performance with board performance. we can rationalize it or draw conclusions however we want but that isnt really the point.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I'm pretty sure the average is a 32 which is the top 10-11% of test takers. I guess that means the average person accepted into allopathic would be more like being in the first round draft. The average MCAT score last year was a 25.1 so future DO's are scoring above average. They also deserve to be drafted.

I agree with you. the sensitive subject matter makes some people ignore what was really said and lash out at my avatar (which was hurtful and unnecessary btw 🙁), but IMO Boards are the universal equalizer and individual programs decide for themselves which flavor they are comfortable with. of DO's that take USMLE step 3 the pass rate is nearly identical to MD's.

 

[Dharma]

I did not. i listed a few observations of individuals and published stats....

the only statement I implied was that the stereotypes between the two schools are baseless. It is usually touted by people insecure in their chosen path (and your obvious offense is evidence of this)

and my avatar is fine. it is not the rod of asclepius (rod w 1 snake and no wings) which is the traditional medical symbol, but the Caduceus was adopted by army medical personnel as their symbol and is used (albeit inappropriately if you are a purist) across the US as a stand-in for the "rod". dont worry about me, i know the ins and outs of the symbol. actually talked a friend out of getting it as a tattoo (mostly because this friend was air force rather than the medical issue). but given it's use and it's overall increased badassness over the rod I like it just fine thankyouverymuch 😉 and given your arrogance I appreciate how you just assume that I couldnt have other aspects to my life such as commerce.

You alluded to your opinion that D.O. education is somehow easier and you base this off some b.s. you heard your friends- who are probably full of $hit- yammering on about. And then you make some passive aggressive DB comment about how a group/individual who you deem academically inferior to you is supposedly running circles around you in med school. That's my gripe with your words and that alone.

That caduceus comment was plain ole ball busting.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

thanks for the levelheaded response without getting butthurt lol. Some people act as if a forum like this is designed solely to cultivate and pamper pre-conceived notions rather than have your opinions and thoughts challenged

I do see how the anatomy argument has more basis than such things as bedside manner ect. I just think it is an inappropriate assumption. in allopathic schools we do not go over anatomy once and forget it. it just strikes me as hypocritical to see all of the conversation about how physicians are physicians and it doesnt matter what letters you have, and then see all these lines of distinction being drawn.

and I think the USMLE pass rates have value to discussion, but I don't think it is appropriate to apply numbers to the individual. lower pass rates are probably due to lower acceptance standards (it makes sense that people who struggled more relative to peers in another group will continue to do so). however the silver lining that I think gets overlooked is that with a majority (and increasing through the steps) pass rate it is inappropriate to judge someone as inferior simply due to the letters preceding the name. I may be alone in this but I think most rational and least insecure approach to the differences is to knowledge the effect lowering admission standards has on downstream stats and understand that this does't necessarily impact quality of education or ability of the individual.

and before i get called out for changing my argument - i previously only stated that I didnt think the assumptive differences had merit and then asked for justification of a few observations.

but Grace, thanks for addressing the questions and statements. to all the butthurt posters, if someone is ignorant it is simply a better approach to openly discuss misconceptions than to attack them.

I'm always up for a healthy debate and professionalism is key to the field of medicine, so why not start here?

I think the DO/MD thing will continue on, but the reason why always makes sense to me and I've tol dthe story on here many times before. But after attending a high school that faced ridicule time and time again (it was attendance by choice, long story that I don't have time to play out here right now), I noticed a recurring theme in people. When put in a situation where one is made to feel inferior, it is of course natural to be defensive. In the midst of that defense, it always ends up happening that people start not only trying to play the cards showing their equality, but their superiority, or at least differences (OMM, anatomy emphasis, etc). The circle becomes complete when the "victims" just want to be viewed as equal, because by bringing up these unique qualities and differences, the opposing team inevitably brings back up the fact that "I thought you said we were all the same and equal." It's a circular argument that can be applied in terms to feminism, MD vs. DO, my situation with my high school....whatever it may be. A natural, albeit irrational, progression to all of this exists and I can't say I can point fingers to either party. All I wish for is the opportunity to practice medicine without my competency being questioned because of my letters or undergrad GPA....once I screw up on the job, that's a different story 😛

 

[Dharma]

I don't remember the source, ask LizzyM I think she has it in her favorites. Also, this is not chemistry, nor is it biology, this is behavior and in behavior an R of over .35 is strong. This is a very powerful correlation between MCAT and USMLE performance. Point being is that sure, you're absolved of your record once you enter graduate education, but your undergraduate scores are a big predictor of future performance, to the dismay of many people.

Most of medicine is also relatively low in its R values, probably an R =.5 is strong.

Give this a look. It's the newest I could find, although it's just an abstract.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17198300

I'm not sure if your interpretation of the correlation being very strong is shared by those studying how effective the MCAT proves to be as an indicator of med school/boards success. It's certainly a good tool, but I think the jury is still out according to how effectively it serves this purpose. Regardless, it looks like I have some reading up to do on statistics 😉

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Give this a look. It's the newest I could find, although it's just an abstract.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17198300

I'm not sure if your interpretation of the correlation being very strong is shared by those studying how effective the MCAT proves to be as an indicator of med school/boards success. It's certainly a good tool, but I think the jury is still out according to how effectively it serves this purpose. Regardless, it looks like I have some reading up to do on statistics 😉

Doesn't opperationalize dependant variable = I don't know what it's looking at. Furthermore like I said, in terms of tests and behavior an R of over .4 is very strong and significant, people get published in major journals with R's of .5 in psychology and medicine.

 

[SpecterGT260]

You alluded to your opinion that D.O. education is somehow easier and you base this off some b.s. you heard your friends- who are probably full of $hit- yammering on about. And then you make some passive aggressive DB comment about how a group/individual who you deem academically inferior to you is supposedly running circles around you in med school. That's my gripe with your words and that alone.

That caduceus comment was plain ole ball busting.

you're darn tootin i did! that was the conclusion from the outside looking in with the information I had available to me. you're the one who decided to get all hot and bothered rather than offer an explanation of the observations. even IF (for the sake of argument) DO education WAS easier, there are still DO's passing step 3 USMLE which means their personal ability is independent of shortcomings in curriculum. in such a situation it wouldnt be unreasonable to assume that the system was set up to accommodate those with weaker performance skills and the subset who do go on and are comparable at that stage can pat themselves on the back because they would have had to go above and beyond compared to someone with a with a more stringent curriculum. not saying this is how it is... just saying the hurt feelings are unnecessary

 

[Dharma]

you're darn tootin i did! that was the conclusion from the outside looking in with the information I had available to me. you're the one who decided to get all hot and bothered rather than offer an explanation of the observations. even IF (for the sake of argument) DO education WAS easier, there are still DO's passing step 3 USMLE which means their personal ability is independent of shortcomings in curriculum. in such a situation it wouldnt be unreasonable to assume that the system was set up to accommodate those with weaker performance skills and the subset who do go on and are comparable at that stage can pat themselves on the back because they would have had to go above and beyond compared to someone with a with a more stringent curriculum. not saying this is how it is... just saying the hurt feelings are unnecessary

So are long-winded explanations; I see what you're saying... and no one's hurt (or "butthurt" as you, for some odd reason, love to repeat 😀)

 

[SpecterGT260]

So are long-winded explanations; I see what you're saying... and no one's hurt (or "butthurt" as you, for some odd reason, love to repeat 😀)

lots of time on other forum types in undergrad..... lol the vocab came along for the ride.

it wasnt THAT long 😉. if im not thorough i basically open up the possibility for more misunderstanding and I might as well just troll

 

[Dharma]

lots of time on other forum types in undergrad..... lol the vocab came along for the ride.

it wasnt THAT long 😉. if im not thorough i basically open up the possibility for more misunderstanding and I might as well just troll

okay, you got me... was busting chops again. 😀

 

[group_theory]

A kind reminder - keep it civil - or people will start getting time-outs and sent to their respective rooms (without supper, or Xbox or internet) and force to write letters of apologies on a piece of paper with a #2 pencil (and forced to use snail mail)

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Go allopathic.

This.

Im a DO because I ****ed off in college.

 

[SpecterGT260]

This.

Im a DO because I ****ed off in college.

because ohio state sucks....





😛

 

[Khirurg]

Chances of getting into a residency at Harvard, etc are actually probably about the same for PCOM and UofA..... low for both - off the top of my head I know a PCOM grad that is doing a Hopkins Residency right now and one that did a UPenn residency years back - so it can happen if you really work for it

No, it is not! University of Arizona is a major institution, with reputation. PCOM may or may not be the "best DO school", but certainly is not mentioned in the same breath. Whether other factors are more important to you like location, etc, that's separate issue, but as far as education and opportunities are concerned - U of A is unquestionable better.

 

[2012mdc]

No, it is not! University of Arizona is a major institution, with reputation. PCOM may or may not be the "best DO school", but certainly is not mentioned in the same breath. Whether other factors are more important to you like location, etc, that's separate issue, but as far as education and opportunities are concerned - U of A is unquestionable better.

I agree. I didn't see one DO on the trail this year and applicants who interviewed at the same quality programs as I did didn't either. Decent number of folks from lower tier allopathic schools but no one from an osteopathic school.

In terms of keeping the most doors open US allopathic is clearly better.

 

[TeamZissou]

No, it is not! University of Arizona is a major institution, with reputation. PCOM may or may not be the "best DO school", but certainly is not mentioned in the same breath. Whether other factors are more important to you like location, etc, that's separate issue, but as far as education and opportunities are concerned - U of A is unquestionable better.

Funny how I said this at the onset but my words just don't carry the same weight.

OP- with U of A being state funded and the only MD school in the state they get lots of resources/ technology you won't see at a private DO school.

My college roommate went to the phx campus and it was always interesting to compare the approaches of the schools.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

MD.

/thread

 

[Baller MD]

Md.

 

[Makati2008]

To be completely honest, I've only read through about half the thread... regardless, I can't help but respond to this:

First off, I am a DO student attending a very reputable DO school (ATSU - KCOM) I'm very proud to be a DO and very glad I made the decision I did despite my alternatives.

Secondly, any MD who says, "MD is superior to DO," or, "MD's are always picked over DO's," is being naive. I'm not going to say it doesn't happen or that some amount of biased doesn't still exist (thanks to those still caught in the misleading mindframe of the late 60's, early 70's), but each year that bias is growing further and further diluted as people realize both sides are good at what they do. Despite what some may want to think, in today's world, DOs and MDs do in fact work side by side, frequently without anyone being the wiser, and we contribute to the growth and developement of each other's professions. It won't be long before that bias is irradicated, and on that day, maybe the trash-talkers will finally learn the meaning of the words "respect," "humility," and "professionalism."

That goes both ways... DO's who trash-talk MDs are no better. The fact of the matter is that we each have a lot to learn from each other... and we are.

As for which school to go with... when you ask, "DO or MD?" There are some important considerations. To be completely honest, even I have to admit it, currently, it is easier to specialize as an MD (mostly because of old-guard physicians). When I say this, it's FAR from impossible to specialize as a DO (particularly if you want to go into anatomy-heavy field such as radiology, ortho, most surgical fields, ect... the anatomy emphasis of the DO is pretty useful here), and I have many friends in the DO world pulling it off without a hitch. That being said, if you have any trouble holding your grades up, you will be selected against.

For any sort of general practice, DO is fantastic. DOs have a wonderful reputation in general practice and are extremely capable to handle multi-functional clinics. This doesn't mean MDs aren't good at general practice (anyone knows it's pretty easy to get a general-practice residency), but I'd be remiss to not mention the fact that certain efforts are being put forward by many leading allopathic institutions that nod to more osteopathic approaches.

U of A vs. PCOM? Both are outstanding facilities. Both have a great reputation... and I actually have friends at both... niether of which I've ever heard complain (beyond the typical, "med schools hard... ect"). I really don't think you'd be dissapointed either way.

Best of luck to you in your decisions, and enjoy your last few months of "freedom." 😉 We'll see you on the other side.

Best,

Jennifer Bubel
ATSU / KCOM - OMS I

P.S. - To all my colleagues, DO and MD alike, I look forward to working with you in the future.

I agree with most of this but hands down if a person has an option to go US MD then go US MD. I was told this by a D.O. and being a hard head I ignored his advice due to liking where I am in school but now that I am thinking about doing rotations at different MD sites and preparing to take boards I have heard everything from "What is the Comlex" from sites up to I haven't seen a DO here EVER(Seems like some of these sites have taken FMG/IMG's over DOs which makes me smh). So think long and hard about is the extra hassle worth it or not.....if I had to make the choice again I would have went to my home school not because of the education but because of the doors that would be open with a MD.

PS-I am not trying to do a ROAD speciality.

 

[AMEHigh]

Going through the match process now and I agree with the "kids"

Going MD keeps more doors open.

I didn't run into a single DO applicant on the rads trail and most programs I interviewed at had 0-1 DO residents out of 30-60 total.

And rads is competitive but it's not super competitve like derm, ortho, plastics, uro etc.

I just want to point out that anecdotes like this aren't very helpful.

First, there are a lot more MD graduates than DO graduates, therefore there are going to be more MD rads residents.

Then, how many DO students are actually interested in matching into rads? A couple every graduating class?

Unless you know how many DO applicants ranked rads as their first choice and subsequently matched or didn't match, simply looking at the numbers like that doesn't necessarily prove a thing, except that not many DO graduates want to be a radiologist.

 

[scotchtapetest]

I agree with most of this but hands down if a person has an option to go US MD then go US MD. I was told this by a D.O. and being a hard head I ignored his advice due to liking where I am in school but now that I am thinking about doing rotations at different MD sites and preparing to take boards I have heard everything from "What is the Comlex" from sites up to I haven't seen a DO here EVER(Seems like some of these sites have taken FMG/IMG's over DOs which makes me smh). So think long and hard about is the extra hassle worth it or not.....if I had to make the choice again I would have went to my home school not because of the education but because of the doors that would be open with a MD.

PS-I am not trying to do a ROAD speciality.

There are lot of sites that have only had FMG/IMGs that DOs don't ever apply to or don't ever rank those programs. Also, I am yet to see a place that actually prefers FMGs/IMGs to DOs (there might be some random community place in the middle of nowhere that no body cares about) but there are no major programs with that preference.

So my suggestion to you is to actually go on some away rotations and then report back about your experience instead of dishing out advice about something you are "looking into"...

BTW, it is still not too late; you can always drop out and go to your home school... Nobody is begging you to stay!

I just want to point out that anecdotes like this aren't very helpful.

First, there are a lot more MD graduates than DO graduates, therefore there are going to be more MD rads residents.

Then, how many DO students are actually interested in matching into rads? A couple every graduating class?

Unless you know how many DO applicants ranked rads as their first choice and subsequently matched or didn't match, simply looking at the numbers like that doesn't necessarily prove a thing, except that not many DO graduates want to be a radiologist.

How dare you say that on SDN? Don't you know that everyone must go to Derm., Ortho and Radiology unless they are absolutely ******ed or failed boards?

Going through the match process now and I agree with the "kids"

Going MD keeps more doors open.

I didn't run into a single DO applicant on the rads trail and most programs I interviewed at had 0-1 DO residents out of 30-60 total.

And rads is competitive but it's not super competitve like derm, ortho, plastics, uro etc.

DOs comprise about 5% of ACGME applicants and 2.5% of applicants in non-primary care specialties. Out of which a very small number choose radiology. So, just because people didn't see them on the interview trail doesn't mean s***. Actually 1 out of 30-60 rads resident being a DO means DOs were fairly accurately/proportionally represented at the programs you interviewed at.

Also, unless you know the name of every DO school (which most MDs don't) or they specifically mentioned COM you would have no idea that there was a DO in your interview group.

This is like me saying that I didn't see anyone from Univ. of Missouri, Creighton University, Univ. of North Dakota, U of Utah and a few southern MD schools in 400 applicants (which I really didn't), therefore, students from those schools don't/can't get interviews at IM programs (somewhat inaccurate).

 

[Makati2008]

There are lot of sites that have only had FMG/IMGs that DOs don't ever apply to or don't ever rank those programs. Also, I am yet to see a place that actually prefers FMGs/IMGs to DOs (there might be some random community place in the middle of nowhere that no body cares about) but there are no major programs with that preference.

So my suggestion to you is to actually go on some away rotations and then report back about your experience instead of dishing out advice about something you are "looking into"...

BTW, it is still not too late; you can always drop out and go to your home school... Nobody is begging you to stay!



How dare you say that on SDN? Don't you know that everyone must go to Derm., Ortho and Radiology unless they are absolutely ******ed or failed boards?




DOs comprise about 5% of ACGME applicants and 2.5% of applicants in non-primary care specialties. Out of which a very small number choose radiology. So, just because people didn't see them on the interview trail doesn't mean s***. Actually 1 out of 30-60 rads resident being a DO means DOs were fairly accurately/proportionally represented at the programs you interviewed at.

Also, unless you know the name of every DO school (which most MDs don't) or they specifically mentioned COM you would have no idea that there was a DO in your interview group.

This is like me saying that I didn't see anyone from Univ. of Missouri, Creighton University, Univ. of North Dakota, U of Utah and a few southern MD schools in 400 applicants (which I really didn't), therefore, students from those schools don't/can't get interviews at IM programs (somewhat inaccurate).

Mighty brave are we via internet. Like I said this program was in a very respected hospital in the North(if memory serves me correctly they were from Ireland/England/China-> the IMGs). Since you know it all lol.

Believe me if I wasn't a 100k in debt I would highly consider it(if they counted the basic science portion j/k and FYI I love being a S.D.O. the BEST and the SMARTEST doctor I have ever known is a D.O.) but again you seem offended that I would say what I experienced when emailing and calling programs. Again some said they look at our comlex as equal to the usmle while others have said well we look at the comlex BUT we prefer the usmle and would highly like you to take it.

Below is the shortened version of the corrrespondence from the program I am talking about:
Hi,
I'm not familiar with COMLEX scoring. For ULSME we require a min of 215, so the COMLEX score would have to be eqivalent.

Best,

I replied explaining what the comlex is.

Final reply:
Hi,
In my experience (28 yrs), we have not accepted any D.O.'s.

Best,

PS-Please put me on your ignore list if you cannot at least be civil. I have no time to argue with you just stating what my "checking into" has led me to see and hear.

Thx.

 

[SpecterGT260]

bala has short man syndrome, I believe. (whether figurative as applied to professional endeavor or he is actually of short stature..... jury is still out)

 

[scotchtapetest]

bala has short man syndrome, I believe. (whether figurative as applied to professional endeavor or he is actually of short stature..... jury is still out)

Hey, I have to give it to you, you make a very convincing argument which is very relevant to the points I made in my post!!! You countered them very well!👎

Aren't you tired of posting garbage about DOs? Don't you have other stuff to worry about?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Hey, I have to give it to you, you make a very convincing argument which is very relevant to the points I made in my post!!! You countered them very well!👎

Aren't you tired of posting garbage about DOs? Don't you have other stuff to worry about?

how much garbage have I posted about DO's? in any such thread ive been involved in I end up largely getting the dissenting DO students to see eye to eye with me. Basically because, while it is a sensitive subject, Im not really saying anything intrinsically insulting and give credit in all the places I believe it is due. Once people stop the knee-jerk emotional responses on the subject and actually read what was written the conversation goes quite smoothly.

except for you.... every response you make has such a stank of unnecessary self-righteous defense to it I'm starting to think you are just responding to your own insecurities on the subject. maybe you wanted MD and now that you are in a DO school any comparative discussion stings a little too much? I dunno.... but the way you come at this leaves that a possibility. From a specific perspective, You're being harder on DO's than I am.

"the lady doth protest too much, methinks"

 

[scotchtapetest]

Mighty brave are we via internet. Like I said this program was in a very respected hospital in the North(if memory serves me correctly they were from Ireland/England/China-> the IMGs). Since you know it all lol.

Believe me if I wasn't a 100k in debt I would highly consider it(if they counted the basic science portion j/k and FYI I love being a S.D.O. the BEST and the SMARTEST doctor I have ever known is a D.O.) but again you seem offended that I would say what I experienced when emailing and calling programs. Again some said they look at our comlex as equal to the usmle while others have said well we look at the comlex BUT we prefer the usmle and would highly like you to take it.

Below is the shortened version of the corrrespondence from the program I am talking about:
Hi,
I'm not familiar with COMLEX scoring. For ULSME we require a min of 215, so the COMLEX score would have to be eqivalent.

Best,

I replied explaining what the comlex is.

Final reply:
Hi,
In my experience (28 yrs), we have not accepted any D.O.'s.

Best,

PS-Please put me on your ignore list if you cannot at least be civil. I have no time to argue with you just stating what my "checking into" has led me to see and hear.

Thx.

First let me point out that whether the DO you knew was the smartest or dumbest doctor ever doesn't mean jack and it is irrelevant to the discussion. Also, you either have to like something or dislike it. You can't have it both ways. Obviously there are pluses and minuses to everything but at the end of the day if someone asks, you have to give them a straight answer regarding your overall feeling about your school. If you think you made the right decision stop complaining and start studying for the boards and if you don't drop out and go to whatever school/profession that you like more (nothing is worth being miserable for the rest of your life)!

Also, I don't know what the point of your post is or even if you have a point...

All I got from your post was that ONE random program which is a "very respected" hospital with many FMGs/IMGs (contradictory terms) doesn't know what COMLEX is or hasn't had a DO? Who cares? Why don't you share their name so we know how respected they really are? All of us do away rotations and obviously is not that big of a deal to get them or none of us would've been able to satisfy graduation requirements for the past 30+ years. And if you are that worried about rotations go to VSAS which lists all of the requirements for major academic places...

All I said was that since you haven't even started your core rotations, maybe you should wait until you do at least 1 rotation before dishing out advice about setting up rotations and their requirements.

Also just FYI, Irish schools are the new Caribbean schools for US/Canadian citizens. So unless the Irish grads are actually Irish there is no difference between US/Canadian citizen carib. grads and Irish grads (You can check the SDN's "General International Discussion" board if you are interested)...

 

[newbie04]

except for you.... every response you make has such a stank of unnecessary self-righteous defense to it I'm starting to think you are just responding to your own insecurities on the subject.

You have to remember this bala565 person is always right. No. Matter. What.

I've seen countless threads where he/she replies with veiled sincerity, always getting a "dig" in of some sort or telling people how it really is. Plus, you can't forget the liberal use of exclamation points. Strong work, I must say. 🙄

 

[scotchtapetest]

how much garbage have I posted about DO's? in any such thread ive been involved in I end up largely getting the dissenting DO students to see eye to eye with me. Basically because, while it is a sensitive subject, Im not really saying anything intrinsically insulting and give credit in all the places I believe it is due. Once people stop the knee-jerk emotional responses on the subject and actually read what was written the conversation goes quite smoothly.

except for you.... every response you make has such a stank of unnecessary self-righteous defense to it I'm starting to think you are just responding to your own insecurities on the subject. maybe you wanted MD and now that you are in a DO school any comparative discussion stings a little too much? I dunno.... but the way you come at this leaves that a possibility. From a specific perspective, You're being harder on DO's than I am.

"the lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Our post histories are visible to everyone and we will let others make their own decision about our credibilities and who posts garbage and who doesn't. You are one of the number of people currently on SDN with very new accounts (opened this month with 400+ posts, mostly about DO vs MD) who have been posting garbage about DOs and your post history clearly indicates that.

This discussion has nothing to do with me.... Whether I'm an idiot or the smartest person alive doesn't change anything...

I presented a series of facts and since you couldn't counter any of them you started to attack me personally! Also, I didn't once mention anything bad about US MD schools/students. Just pointed out facts...

 

[scotchtapetest]

You have to remember this bala565 person is always right. No. Matter. What.

I've seen countless threads where he/she replies with veiled sincerity, always getting a "dig" in of some sort or telling people how it really is. Plus, you can't forget the liberal use of exclamation points. Strong work, I must say. 🙄

Again, if I've said something wrong, point it out!

 

[SpecterGT260]

Our post histories are visible to everyone and we will let others make their own decision about our credibilities and who posts garbage and who doesn't. You are one of the number of people currently on SDN with very new accounts (opened this month with 400+ posts, mostly about DO vs MD) who have been posting garbage about DOs and your post history clearly indicates that.

This discussion has nothing to do with me.... Whether I'm an idiot or the smartest person alive doesn't change anything...

I presented a series of facts and since you couldn't counter any of them you started to attack me personally! Also, I didn't once mention anything bad about US MD schools/students. Just pointed out facts...

the fact that you are DO is coincidental.... my post about you cannot be taken as slander towards DO students 😉

and involvement in specific subject matters doesnt mean it is all garbage. I posted a series of facts just as you did. and you ignored them just as I allegedly did. in fact, MOST of my involvement in these threads starts out by just asking how some people justify some of the generalizations they tout (differences in bedside manner for example) and specific interpretation of data (for example claiming primary care residencies prefer DO over MD because DOs are overrepresented in these programs comparatively). if there is solid rationale for accepting some of these things other than the apparent nonsense I am perfectly willing to listen.

but please try to use your inside voice 😉

 

[SpecterGT260]

Again, if I've said something wrong, point it out!

ok 🙂

Our post histories are visible to everyone and we will let others make their own decision about our credibilities and who posts garbage and who doesn't. You are one of the number of people currently on SDN with very new accounts (opened this month with 400+ posts, mostly about DO vs MD) who have been posting garbage about DOs and your post history clearly indicates that.

This discussion has nothing to do with me.... Whether I'm an idiot or the smartest person alive doesn't change anything...

I presented a series of facts and since you couldn't counter any of them you started to attack me personally! Also, I didn't once mention anything bad about US MD schools/students. Just pointed out facts...

just out of curiosity I went back through the threads ive posted in and used the nifty little # of posts link in the thread lists page. breaks down posts by user for each thread. of the 2 MD v DO threads I have been involved in I have 59 posts total - and I'll even let you wrongfully assume that they were all on topic and pitting one against the other 👍

lets see.... 59 devided by 400 and some change..... carry the 1.... niner.... (god i hate mental math....) um.... 13.50114416475973%.... give or take (remember to subtract one if you want to check my math after I click there here post button below)

so looks like you were wrong in your assessment... although this may or may not constitute splitting hairs.

I'm a little hurt..... I thought my posts in the homeopathy and chiropractics threads were some of my greatest work 🙁

 

[Makati2008]

First let me point out that whether the DO you knew was the smartest or dumbest doctor ever doesn't mean jack and it is irrelevant to the discussion. Also, you either have to like something or dislike it. You can't have it both ways. Obviously there are pluses and minuses to everything but at the end of the day if someone asks, you have to give them a straight answer regarding your overall feeling about your school. If you think you made the right decision stop complaining and start studying for the boards and if you don't drop out and go to whatever school/profession that you like more (nothing is worth being miserable for the rest of your life)!

Also, I don't know what the point of your post is or even if you have a point...

All I got from your post was that ONE random program which is a "very respected" hospital with many FMGs/IMGs (contradictory terms) doesn't know what COMLEX is or hasn't had a DO? Who cares? Why don't you share their name so we know how respected they really are? All of us do away rotations and obviously is not that big of a deal to get them or none of us would've been able to satisfy graduation requirements for the past 30+ years. And if you are that worried about rotations go to VSAS which lists all of the requirements for major academic places...

All I said was that since you haven't even started your core rotations, maybe you should wait until you do at least 1 rotation before dishing out advice about setting up rotations and their requirements.

Also just FYI, Irish schools are the new Caribbean schools for US/Canadian citizens. So unless the Irish grads are actually Irish there is no difference between US/Canadian citizen carib. grads and Irish grads (You can check the SDN's "General International Discussion" board if you are interested)...

I have asked you nicely to ignore me. Since you seem intent on attacking me(like you have others in your post history) I will now refer you to the moderators to stay out of my portion of the discussion due to being unable to try to have a civil discussion without trying to look down upon others arguments like yours is truly right. AGAIN ignore my post and do not respond to me.

 

[ShyRem]

Let me remind all parties that the ignore feature works both ways. 😉

 

[Makati2008]

Let me remind all parties that the ignore feature works both ways. 😉

Lol good point.I just log onto sdn for civil discussions don't prefer to argue I used too though and have gotten better lol. I didn't mean use the actual iggy button but more so pretend he doesn't see me due to him/her possibly saying something that might be useful.

 

[MelissaThompson]

As a native of Canada - the fact that physicians graduating from DO residencies is barred from licensing speaks great volumes....