PE in pregnancy

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prolene60

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Ive been trying to look this up but with no success. Should any pregnant patient who presents to the ED with non-pleuritic chest pain, normal vitals, no SOB, no prior hx dvt/PE, no other PE risk factors deserve a PE work-up? Excluding the obvious of course---> obvious muscular, or burning/GERD type pain, or ekg with ST elevations et..
To me even though they were excluded I feel that pregnancy should be a PERC criteria.
Any thoughts?

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Ive been trying to look this up but with no success. Should any pregnant patient who presents to the ED with non-pleuritic chest pain, normal vitals, no SOB, no prior hx dvt/PE, no other PE risk factors deserve a PE work-up? Excluding the obvious of course---> obvious muscular, or burning/GERD type pain, or ekg with ST elevations et..
To me even though they were excluded I feel that pregnancy should be a PERC criteria.
Any thoughts?

The first step in the PERC criteria is "low risk by clinical evaluation."

Depending on how you approach this step will define how you proceed (be it Well's, gestalt, etc).

I for one feel that pregnant patients aren't PERCable because I don't consider them low enough risk; but, even though it is frequently elevated in pregnancy, a low-risk patient can be dimer'd... and fully recognize the gamble if it's elevated.

That being said:
CTA r/o PE = less rads than VQ study
You can have a discussion/consent with the patient about getting the scan.

To the original question, there's a reason they excluded pregnant patients from the PERC derivation... can't just apply the rule to a non-included population.

Cheers!
-d

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
 
First, if you're getting a ddimer, remember that Kline et al are raising the amount considered to be "positive" in pregnancy.
Then, if you get a positive result, start with LE duplex. If positive, you're done.
If negative, then consider VQ with Foley vs gated CT.
 
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So I have my own way of working these patients up. The issue that kept bothering me is when it would be reasonable to actually START the workup on a pregnant patient. If I have a pregnant person with chest pain only and no other symptoms and it's not pleuritic, and patient has no other risk factors for PE would you guys start a PE work-up on her?(whatever your method of workup choice may be). Or because of the pain in the A that it is to work-up pregnant PEs would you want to have something more like pleuritic nature, tachy, c/o SOB, or something else, etc...
 
you shouldn't have your "own way" of working up these patients - this is one of the most well reasoned areas in EM even if it is continuously evolving...there is a clear way to stratify based on pre-test probability whether and how to work up. everything Dr. McNinja said was reasonable - just keep in mind that Kline is the guru and he can get away doing stuff without a big RCT - but, for the rest of us, technically a positive dimer is still a positive dimer
 
For some reason no one wants to answer my question. All I want to know is if people here would do a PE work up in a pregnant pt with non pleuritic chest pain.
 
For some reason no one wants to answer my question. All I want to know is if people here would do a PE work up in a pregnant pt with non pleuritic chest pain.

Yes and no. I can envision scenarios where I wouldn't work a pregnant woman up for PE with non-pleuritic chest pain, but I've worked up most pregnant women with a chief complaint of chest pain for PE. Also if you're going to pick arbitrary criteria for working up PE, making pleuritic vs. non-pleuritic your decision point is not terribly useful. You'll note that neither the Well's or PERC uses pleuritic chest pain as a criteria (although you could argue that it's a factor in the "PE is #1 concern").

And the reason no one wanted to answer your question is that it's not a question that has a definite answer. I would disagree with zinjathropus that there is a clear way to determine whether to work-up, since just blindly throwing out the PERC rule and working up everyone that fails would lead to a ridiculous amount of testing. There's an art to it, and pregnancy + chest pain is not quite = PE work-up (although it's pretty damn close).

Of note, I have started using Kline's d-dimer adjustments in low-risk and pregnant patients and dictating as such in the medical decision making. Not sure if it would save me, but given that I'm in a state with a gross negligence standard it may be enough.
 
The first step in the PERC criteria is "low risk by clinical evaluation."

Depending on how you approach this step will define how you proceed (be it Well's, gestalt, etc).

I for one feel that pregnant patients aren't PERCable because I don't consider them low enough risk; but, even though it is frequently elevated in pregnancy, a low-risk patient can be dimer'd... and fully recognize the gamble if it's elevated.

That being said:
CTA r/o PE = less rads than VQ study
You can have a discussion/consent with the patient about getting the scan.

To the original question, there's a reason they excluded pregnant patients from the PERC derivation... can't just apply the rule to a non-included population.

Cheers!
-d

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

First, if you're getting a ddimer, remember that Kline et al are raising the amount considered to be "positive" in pregnancy.
Then, if you get a positive result, start with LE duplex. If positive, you're done.
If negative, then consider VQ with Foley vs gated CT.

you shouldn't have your "own way" of working up these patients - this is one of the most well reasoned areas in EM even if it is continuously evolving...there is a clear way to stratify based on pre-test probability whether and how to work up. everything Dr. McNinja said was reasonable - just keep in mind that Kline is the guru and he can get away doing stuff without a big RCT - but, for the rest of us, technically a positive dimer is still a positive dimer

For some reason no one wants to answer my question. All I want to know is if people here would do a PE work up in a pregnant pt with non pleuritic chest pain.

Really? If that is your attitude, then I would return such attitude to you that, as a resident, this is an optimal question for you to research, thoroughly, and provide a cogent, supported, well-thought answer, which could, conceivably, change the way that any or some or all of us practice.

Harsh? Just as much so as your response.
 
For some reason no one wants to answer my question. All I want to know is if people here would do a PE work up in a pregnant pt with non pleuritic chest pain.

Your new question is stupid.
And of course, the answer is yes. Depending on the situation, etc.
 
Yes and no. I can envision scenarios where I wouldn't work a pregnant woman up for PE with non-pleuritic chest pain, but I've worked up most pregnant women with a chief complaint of chest pain for PE. Also if you're going to pick arbitrary criteria for working up PE, making pleuritic vs. non-pleuritic your decision point is not terribly useful. You'll note that neither the Well's or PERC uses pleuritic chest pain as a criteria (although you could argue that it's a factor in the "PE is #1 concern").

And the reason no one wanted to answer your question is that it's not a question that has a definite answer. I would disagree with zinjathropus that there is a clear way to determine whether to work-up, since just blindly throwing out the PERC rule and working up everyone that fails would lead to a ridiculous amount of testing. There's an art to it, and pregnancy + chest pain is not quite = PE work-up (although it's pretty damn close).

Of note, I have started using Kline's d-dimer adjustments in low-risk and pregnant patients and dictating as such in the medical decision making. Not sure if it would save me, but given that I'm in a state with a gross negligence standard it may be enough.
I think the thing about pleuritic chest pain comes from the observation from pioped that 97% of patients had at least one of the triad of tachypnea, dyspnea or pleuritic chest pain, thus allowing one to avoid the workup in someone w/ vague chest discomfort who's otherwise well.

Are the pregnancy d-dimer cutoffs you refer to 700, 1000, and 1400 by trimester? Or is a different, lab specific value that's reported w/ the results On that note, is anyone using age-adjused d-dimer cutoffs: (patient’s age x 10) µg/l in patients aged >50?
 
I have not really embraced the ddimer in pregnant pts. I was always taught that the ddimer is only useful in low risk patients and being pregnant with chest pain is no longer low risk for PE. So a normal ddimer in a moderate risk patient does not exclude clot. I usually scan them if i feel strongly and or US the legs.
 
OMG I'm gonna cry because someone on the SDN forum stated "I guess no one wants to answer my question." I asked a simple question, and some of the responses I received were about the actual work-up with one individual chastising me for HOW i worked these patients up. There are few positives in working in medicine and many negatives(especially in EM) one of those being with having to deal with extremely critical colleagues and childish self indulged righteousness when speaking to or discussing a case with another colleague whom we feel to not be practicing to our own subjective standards. Also it seems that we all ride to work on our white horses. ( At least in this forum). On a side note I really appreciate some of the responses, they've been helpful. Sometimes I just feel that expressing opinions on abortion on a catholic blog might be better tolerated and accepted than opinions in medicine here.
 
OMG I'm gonna cry because someone on the SDN forum stated "I guess no one wants to answer my question." I asked a simple question, and some of the responses I received were about the actual work-up with one individual chastising me for HOW i worked these patients up. There are few positives in working in medicine and many negatives(especially in EM) one of those being with having to deal with extremely critical colleagues and childish self indulged righteousness when speaking to or discussing a case with another colleague whom we feel to not be practicing to our own subjective standards. Also it seems that we all ride to work on our white horses. ( At least in this forum). On a side note I really appreciate some of the responses, they've been helpful. Sometimes I just feel that expressing opinions on abortion on a catholic blog might be better tolerated and accepted than opinions in medicine here.

You asked a vague, open ended question that doesn't have an answer as asked. This leads to digressions or answering a related but more straight forward question. And if we didn't think we were doing the right thing at our jobs that would be pretty odd and not a sustainable situation. You're acting butt hurt because you got called out for being rude in your second post. This is not so much the forum's problem as it is yours.
 
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Checked into this recently.

No D dimer.
If signs of DVT = do US first
CXR then (technically) should do a VQ if CXR normal
if abnormal CXR, just scan.

I find the talk about a VQ scan to be a non-starter. It would seem that we should probably just treat these the same as a non-pregnant, high risk pt and just scan them.
 
Checked into this recently.

No D dimer.
If signs of DVT = do US first
CXR then (technically) should do a VQ if CXR normal
if abnormal CXR, just scan.

I find the talk about a VQ scan to be a non-starter. It would seem that we should probably just treat these the same as a non-pregnant, high risk pt and just scan them.

Agree up until the final point. Compared to CTA of the chest, VQ delivers a higher radiation dose to the fetus.

http://m.radiology.rsna.org/content/240/3/765.full

--> there are better references, but I'm on my phone right now. d=)

Cheers!
-d

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
 
here's my algorithim (think i got it from sdn)

preg plus CP= bilat LE US, CXR, Ddimer. everything neg= no CT. Pos US=tx, no CT. Elevated ddimer=d/w pt risk of radiation, scan if pt agrees, ama if disagrees. Almost all will ama. Of course if pt really looks like a PE, then I will push them to get scanned regardless.
 
here's my algorithim (think i got it from sdn)

preg plus CP= bilat LE US, CXR, Ddimer. everything neg= no CT. Pos US=tx, no CT. Elevated ddimer=d/w pt risk of radiation, scan if pt agrees, ama if disagrees. Almost all will ama. Of course if pt really looks like a PE, then I will push them to get scanned regardless.

I imagine you get negative ultrasounds quite often, but what percentage of the time do you see a truly negative dimer in pregnant patients? I see it almost never so this algorithm wouldn't really help me.

For those using Kline's adjusted cutoffs, what paper are you citing? I searched a few months ago and didn't find any substantial evidence to support it. I've heard him talk about it, but that seems a little weak on the chart - "Its what this guy in North Carolina does"
 
Agree up until the final point. Compared to CTA of the chest, VQ delivers a higher radiation dose to the fetus.

http://m.radiology.rsna.org/content/240/3/765.full

--> there are better references, but I'm on my phone right now. d=)

Cheers!
-d

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
One issue with this is that the radiation dose from either isn't really close to teratogenic and theres a significant difference in radiation to the breast, which may be esp susceptible during pregnancy. In addition, V/Q scanning is better in pregnant women than the typical patient due to the (usual) lack of lung dz and CTPAs aren't as good due to problems w/ PA filling. At least, that's the rationale provided for the recommendations for V/Q over. CT.
 
Do you use those? It just seems like the evidence is relatively weak (or nonexistant) to be making such a high risk decision upon. The number still shows up red in the computer and I just don't feel like its a tight chart without peer reviewd data to refer to.
 
Evidence is weak (or nonexistant) to working up a large number of PEs as well. Just because a number shows up doesn't mean it is bad.
I would rather miss an inconsequential PE than hurt someone with anticoagulation.
 
Do you use those? It just seems like the evidence is relatively weak (or nonexistant) to be making such a high risk decision upon. The number still shows up red in the computer and I just don't feel like its a tight chart without peer reviewd data to refer to.
I use them as a guide. I discharged someone with an 800 d-dimer with negative ultrasounds because her story wasn't concerning.

I think I'd have a hard time discharging someone with a 1700 d-dimer without some kind of workup.

As I said earlier, these numbers haven't been studied in PE... only drawn in normal pregnancy. One might say that it's a "normal level d-dimer" in pregnancy, but without being studied directly, we don't know if d-dimers even elevated with PE in pregnancy moreso than baseline levels.
 
Evidence is weak (or nonexistant) to working up a large number of PEs as well. Just because a number shows up doesn't mean it is bad.
I would rather miss an inconsequential PE than hurt someone with anticoagulation.

I'm not sure I follow you on that one. It seems to me that PE is very well studied (compared to other conditions). There are clinical guidelines and decision rules everywhere you turn. It does feel lame to anticoagulate someone for a subsegmental PE, but I feel like I face liability if I don't (or don't work up a good story despite normal vitals) and they end up having a saddle embolus the next month. Granted, this kind of thing is rare but not unheard of.

So I guess a red number with no data to support it not being red and a suspicion to send the test in the first place does concern me. For that reason I don't send dimers in pregnancy.
 
I'm not sure I follow you on that one. It seems to me that PE is very well studied (compared to other conditions). There are clinical guidelines and decision rules everywhere you turn. It does feel lame to anticoagulate someone for a subsegmental PE, but I feel like I face liability if I don't (or don't work up a good story despite normal vitals) and they end up having a saddle embolus the next month. Granted, this kind of thing is rare but not unheard of.
PE workup is very well studied. Outcomes, not so much.
pulmonary-embolism-as-a-meaningless-diagnosis
anticoagulation-for-venous-thromboembolism/
 

Agree with you on poor outcomes data for treatment, but anticoagulation is the standard of care for small PEs. So if I miss the diagnosis because I let a 3rd trimester patient go with a dimer of 1650 and the patient has a bad outcome (even though they might have had a bad outcome despite anticoagulation) then that seems like a problem.
 
Agree with you on poor outcomes data for treatment, but anticoagulation is the standard of care for small PEs. So if I miss the diagnosis because I let a 3rd trimester patient go with a dimer of 1650 and the patient has a bad outcome (even though they might have had a bad outcome despite anticoagulation) then that seems like a problem.

Your argument is still poor.
You could make the exact same argument (based on data) that if you let a normal, non-pregnant patient go with a dimer of 450 and they have a bad outcome, then it's a problem. Just because their dimer is below the threshold doesn't mean they don't have a PE. Similarly, how many positive dimers have you seen that don't have a PE or DVT?
We're really gunning for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I'm not talking about not treating clinically significant PEs. But the fact that there are PEs that many people walk around with is basically ignored.
From the AJR
If the autopsy represents the true gold standard for the diagnosis of pulmonary embolism, it is not without a degree of tarnish. First, the mechanism of death from pulmonary embolism is not as straightforward as simple mechanical obstruction; other causes such as reflex and humoral mechanisms have also been implicated. Second, emboli may be easily missed if the pulmonary artery and its branches are not opened with care during autopsy . Large emboli obstructing the pulmonary trunk or main pulmonary arteries will not go undetected if these vessels are opened; however, lobar and segmental vessels are often not systematically cut, and emboli in these vessels often escape detection . The frequency of pulmonary embolism in autopsy patients ranges from 52% to 64% when meticulous dissection techniques with microscopic correlation are used. However, the positivity rate may approach 90% when a large number of lung tissue blocks are studied . Third, despite this discussion, it is not always possible to distinguish premortem from postmortem thrombus or even thromboemboli from thrombi formed primarily in small pulmonary arteries, in which primary thrombosis is far more common than small thromboemboli. In addition, Morpurgo and Rustici found in a review of 49 instances of sudden and unexpected death from pulmonary embolism, 10 involved only peripheral and unilateral branches. These findings are especially disconcerting because small peripheral arteries are also the areas that are difficult to image radiographically.
 
Just because their dimer is below the threshold doesn't mean they don't have a PE AJR

It means it is incredibly unlikely, if you have a lwo suspicion. If you have a low suspicion and you check a dimer which is negative in a non-prognent patient, you have met the standard of care. I understand you are not held to that standard in terms of malpractice in your state, but I am and I would venture to say most EPs are.

The dimer is actually an excellent test when your suspicion is low with extremely low incidence of false negatives, but poor specificity and lots of false positives. When you have a high suspicion, what you have said regarding false negatives does apply. But the dimer is not intended for high suspicion patients.

You said "Just because a number shows up doesn't mean it is bad." Why are you sending the test then?
 
Definition of pregnancy as "risk" depends what you mean by "low/zero risk". If your "zero risk" is literally zero, then you're going to have to harm a lot of patients (and fetuses) ruling out PE by sending too many d-Dimers and getting stuck with the result from a terribly non-specific test.

Incidence of PE in pregnancy only rises from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 5,000 and is highest in the post-partum period, so, yes, absolutely you can plug a pregnant woman into your decision instruments. That being said, clinical decision instruments simplify complex clinical situations by discarding useful information – PERC is not an exhaustive set of variables and associated negative likelihood ratios. If a patient passes PERC _but_ has other positive variables with small positive likelihood ratios for PE on top of being pregnant, then you might start to think about reconsidering PE again.

Physicians grossly overestimate the risk of PE in ED patients. We're finding too many PEs and harming patients by treating them. The easiest way to prevent yourself from harming a patient is not to find a condition in which the "standard of care" treatment might be harmful. The easiest way to protect yourself from performing a test on a patient that is purely defensive is simply to communicate your decision process with the patient and share the risk: "Mrs. X and I had a discussion about further evaluation of her chest pain. She has normal physiologic parameters and is low to zero risk for pulmonary embolism by several clinical decision instruments, although her risk is elevated due to pregnancy. She has no signs or symptoms for DVT. I communicated to the patient that I felt the risk of false positives from testing and the potential for injury to the fetus exceeded the chance she would benefit from detection of a PE. She was in agreement that we would defer testing at this time, and understood strict return precautions."
 
Agree up until the final point. Compared to CTA of the chest, VQ delivers a higher radiation dose to the fetus.

http://m.radiology.rsna.org/content/240/3/765.full

--> there are better references, but I'm on my phone right now. d=)

Cheers!
-d

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


This is what I was saying. I think the VQ scan is generally a waste of time as its not as good of a test. I think you should treat these pts just like you would treat a high risk person that was not pregnant. CT scan them after a discussion about risk vs benefit.

That said. I also agree with what has been said above that we are finding and treating way too many insignificant PEs in the general population. EMRAP had an interesting case report last month where a middle aged guy passed out but was otherwise fine. For some reason not really explained in the chart he ended up getting a CT showing a PE. Guy got anticoagulated overnight in the hospital. The next day the attending radiologist re-reads the CT and says that there was in fact no PE. Guy stops thinners and goes home and gives the ED doc a great PG score. The philosophical argument was what would have happened if the guy had a poor outcome from the lovenox/heparin? It seemed that the lawyer in the room felt that he would have had a good medmal suit and some of the docs agreed. It was a good discussion and It got me thinking about the implications of finding and treating an insignificant PE in a young pregnant female.

As it stands now, I live in constant fear of a PE in a young, healthy women. As an anecdote, I have seen two otherwise healthy women die because of a them, and had a friend be diagnosed with one after she became extremely symptomatic. I probably tend to look for it a little too much because of this. It would seem to me that missing a PE in a 23yr old pregnant woman who had some random coagulopathy would be an absolute disaster of a malpractice case that would be indefensible. But if you go down the road of scanning these pts and find one, the standard of care is to treat them.

Its an interesting topic.
 
Definition of pregnancy as "risk" depends what you mean by "low/zero risk". If your "zero risk" is literally zero, then you're going to have to harm a lot of patients (and fetuses) ruling out PE by sending too many d-Dimers and getting stuck with the result from a terribly non-specific test.

Incidence of PE in pregnancy only rises from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 5,000 and is highest in the post-partum period, so, yes, absolutely you can plug a pregnant woman into your decision instruments. That being said, clinical decision instruments simplify complex clinical situations by discarding useful information – PERC is not an exhaustive set of variables and associated negative likelihood ratios. If a patient passes PERC _but_ has other positive variables with small positive likelihood ratios for PE on top of being pregnant, then you might start to think about reconsidering PE again.

Physicians grossly overestimate the risk of PE in ED patients. We're finding too many PEs and harming patients by treating them. The easiest way to prevent yourself from harming a patient is not to find a condition in which the "standard of care" treatment might be harmful. The easiest way to protect yourself from performing a test on a patient that is purely defensive is simply to communicate your decision process with the patient and share the risk: "Mrs. X and I had a discussion about further evaluation of her chest pain. She has normal physiologic parameters and is low to zero risk for pulmonary embolism by several clinical decision instruments, although her risk is elevated due to pregnancy. She has no signs or symptoms for DVT. I communicated to the patient that I felt the risk of false positives from testing and the potential for injury to the fetus exceeded the chance she would benefit from detection of a PE. She was in agreement that we would defer testing at this time, and understood strict return precautions."

Love it. Do it. Works a fair amount of the time.

I keep telling my nurses that they'll laugh in 20 years to see how much we tested for this condition for so little clinical gain, but it's going to take an *****load of literature to let us change this practice completely. But, I could be totally wrong and I could be saving lives by treating these subsegmental emboli. Probably not, but who knows?
 
The easiest way to prevent yourself from harming a patient is not to find a condition in which the "standard of care" treatment might be harmful.

In determining not to work up people with a suspicion for PE . . . how do you determine which PEs are going to be the ones that are inconsequential and which ones are going to end up being the harbinger of catastrophy?

If I see a low risk risk patient that has a good story and normal vitals, my concern is not missing the PE now. My concern is them going home and coming back dead from a large PE in 30 days and me being the last person who saw them. Someone looks back at the chart and says, "hey, the patient actually had a good story for PE on their first visit." It's the same reason I order stress tests on chest pain patients and have them follow up with their PCP - yeah they are not infarcting now, but I would really rather there be another progress note between my ED note and their death certificate. The LP for SAH is similar reasoning as well - catch the sentinel bleed so that the patient doesn't die of a ruptured aneurysm. Some subset of patient's with PE's are going to have a catastrophic PE. And some subset of the patients with catastrophic PEs had PE like symptoms prior to their PE. This is what worries me.
 
My concern is them going home and coming back dead from a large PE in 30 days and me being the last person who saw them.

What test do we have in the Emergency Department that rules out coming back dead from PE within 30 days? If a family wants to hammer you for bad luck despite doing everything "right", some states will let them.

Regardless, you missed the key point of my strategy for environments without excellent legal protection – discussing your thought process with the patient, sharing the risk, and documenting that mutual decision to defer low-yield testing.
 
What test do we have in the Emergency Department that rules out coming back dead from PE within 30 days? If a family wants to hammer you for bad luck despite doing everything "right", some states will let them.

Regardless, you missed the key point of my strategy for environments without excellent legal protection – discussing your thought process with the patient, sharing the risk, and documenting that mutual decision to defer low-yield testing.

This is my approach as well. I can't say for sure if it will protect me, but it helps me sleep at night.
 
What test do we have in the Emergency Department that rules out coming back dead from PE within 30 days?

Exactly. That's why we anticoagulate even the smaller PEs. Because we have no way of knowing which PEs are just incidental findings and which ones are a sign of a hyopercoagulable state in patients that are going to go on to have large, hemodynamically signifigant PEs.
 
Exactly. That's why we anticoagulate even the smaller PEs. Because we have no way of knowing which PEs are just incidental findings and which ones are a sign of a hyopercoagulable state in patients that are going to go on to have large, hemodynamically signifigant PEs.

You should probably just go ahead and anticoagulate everyone then. Because even the negative CT scans likely have PEs that you're missing.
 
You should probably just go ahead and anticoagulate everyone then. Because even the negative CT scans likely have PEs that you're missing.

I'm assuming from your earlier input that you don't treat certain PEs in your practice. Honestly curious . . . How do you make the decision which ones you are going to treat and which ones you aren't? Is it just sub-seg PE's you're not treating? Do you get ext USs to make sure they don't have a DVT?
 
I wouldn't say that I haven't treated identified PEs.
I just don't try as hard to identify the ones that aren't causing physiologic problems. No abnormal vitals (or not close?) Not hypoxic? Chest pain not interfering with life? Why look for it? Again, Texas helps in this regard.

However, the argument is similar. Given a good enough CT scanner, I bet you could identify ones even smaller than we have now. So we aren't arguing whether to treat them at all, just at what point it becomes beneficial to do so.
 
It perhaps says something about the current medicolegal climate that when my father was diagnosed with a subsegmental PE that I thought was totally unrelated to his complaints I recommended he not take coumadin. However, I would never recommend this for a patient whose chart I was signing.
 
I too agree that we are making way to big of a deal about dinky PEs.

However, what's interesting to me is not the identified sub-segmental PE, but (1) the obsession we have with finding them and (2) the apparent lack of concern about where the PE came from.

When I think about it, it seems that if the patient is only mildly symptomatic and there is NO evidence of right heart or pulmonary strain, I am more concerned with the size and location of the "donor" clot (if there is one; I think that there is a lot of little clotting going on all the time and that this is physiologic and normal --> filtered by the lungs) vs. the entire clot having migrated to the pulmonary vasculature.

It is interesting that we put very little thought and testing into extra-pulmonary sources, but all kinds of thought and testing into the search for some minimally symptomatic PE.

If someone finds a subsegmental clot in my lungs, I wouldn't consider anticoagulation for that...however, I would certainly consider it for the donor clot, which I most likely would have no information about (location, size).

HH
 
HH, I think you have a great point. Subsegmental with no DVT -> who cares. Subseg with DVT -> I would want anticoagulation. I hope the algorithm someday ends up being dimer->US->anticoag and only CTPE in special circumstances. No CTPE unless hypoxic, resp distress, tachy, hypotensive, etc. Unfortunately we are not there yet.
 
Can anyone comment on risk of PE in 1st, 2nd and 3rd trimester as well as postpartum? I know risk is highest in the peri-partum period, but should we be treating someone 8 weeks pregnant as a "normal" person, ie, not pregnant? How about 2nd trimester?

As an aside, pregnant with chest pain is my least favorite chief complaint. However, having a discussion with the patient regarding the proposed workup, and the risks/benefits, really helps. I'll go down the pathway with them and once we get to the CTA part, the patient often says they would likely refuse it. (assuming you have a patient you can have the intelligent conversation with in the first place).
 
Can anyone comment on risk of PE in 1st, 2nd and 3rd trimester as well as postpartum? I know risk is highest in the peri-partum period, but should we be treating someone 8 weeks pregnant as a "normal" person, ie, not pregnant? How about 2nd trimester?

As an aside, pregnant with chest pain is my least favorite chief complaint. However, having a discussion with the patient regarding the proposed workup, and the risks/benefits, really helps. I'll go down the pathway with them and once we get to the CTA part, the patient often says they would likely refuse it. (assuming you have a patient you can have the intelligent conversation with in the first place).

I would like some info on this as well. My thoughts were that highest risk is post partum to about 20x the general population and less the earlier in pregnancy.

And yes, it is my least favorite patient complaint... just had another one today. Good thing I noted that it was completely reproducible on chest wall palpation and it radiates to the exact same spot that she was complaining about (left shoulder). Did a single cardiac w/up and b/l US then stopped there. Had a 20 minute discussion with her why I didn't want to CTApe her.
 
Info on what?
Pregnancy is higher risk. It's higher risk for DVT. It's higher risk for malpractice. Do you want it quantified or something?
Either practice rational medicine, or, if your current medicolegal climate doesn't allow you, do one of two things. Move, or cause more harm than good in overtesting.
 
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