Pedi-Snobs

[DarthNeurology]

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Not to start a flame war or anything, but some of the recent posts on role of pediatricians sort of make me reflect on some of what I perceived as the negative aspects of pediatrics, (although I am a student interested in pediatrics!😳), mainly:

1. Pediatric attendings seem a little offish to students who are interested in their field and don't seem as inclined to "mentor" or I guess just talk about pediatrics with students. I literally had a pediatric attending who knew I wanted to do pediatrics, and basically just pimped me and socialized/taught the other student who wanted anesthesiology, maybe because he thought that he was "smarter" to do that? Is there sort of an "eat-their-own" attitude amoung pediatric attendings and their students?

2. Pediatric attendings talk a lot about how important their work with children is with comments very similar to posts here like how pediatricians advocate for chidren and how important their role is, I sort of really liked this about pediatrics, but I am wondering now if it is sort of a power trip? Or put another way, if I want to "advocate" and care for children exclusively as a pediatrician is this a power trip? Without internists to keep the adults (parents) well and alive this also affects a child's life greatly (i.e. if mom is sick all the time), plus there are so many other doctors that work with or help critically ill children like pediatric surgeon, pediatric anesthesiologists, pediatric radiologists, and even family practicioners who take care of children, doe anyone get the feeling of sort of snobbery in pediatric residencies with a tendency to negate the positive aspects of other fields of medicine? Just curious if this was me or something that others have to "work around" when dealing with pediatric attendings? I have heard people who consider pediatrics are similar to those who consider surgery, maybe "prestige" is an issue? I really love internal medicine *almost* as much as pediatrics, but think it would be wearring to heard pediatricians slam other specialties non-stop.

3. Mostly I have seen male pediatric attendings who talk up the superiority of pediatrics, how do female pediatric attendings relate to male pediatric residents? I.e. is it like Ob/Gyn where male residents have a very hard time? I would guess for most child visits I won't need a chaperone as an attending or resident, being a male, right? Do a lot of parents/patients want just a female pediatrician? 😕 I just want to make sure I have answer to these questions so I feel more confident when I apply I guess

 

[MedGoatTX]

Regarding #1, I never had that experience. I don't know what to tell you other than sorry it seems like you had bad luck.

Regarding #2, I bet there are residents/fellows/attendings in nearly every field who could give you a reason why theirs is the "most important" specialty. I don't think that's something unique to pediatrics at all.

 

[DarthNeurology]

Regarding #1, I never had that experience. I don't know what to tell you other than sorry it seems like you had bad luck.

Regarding #2, I bet there are residents/fellows/attendings in nearly every field who could give you a reason why theirs is the "most important" specialty. I don't think that's something unique to pediatrics at all.[/quote]

I've never seen an internal medicine doctor or resident say their field is the most important, i.e. most have a focused and comprehensive approach to the patient but atmosphere is laid back. Same thing with FP, i.e. haven't seen any FP resident or atteding call their specialty the "most important", . . .

 

[waldenwoods]

2. Pediatric attendings talk a lot about how important their work with children is with comments very similar to posts here like how pediatricians advocate for chidren and how important their role is, I sort of really liked this about pediatrics, but I am wondering now if it is sort of a power trip? Or put another way, if I want to "advocate" and care for children exclusively as a pediatrician is this a power trip? Without internists to keep the adults (parents) well and alive this also affects a child's life greatly (i.e. if mom is sick all the time), plus there are so many other doctors that work with or help critically ill children like pediatric surgeon, pediatric anesthesiologists, pediatric radiologists, and even family practicioners who take care of children, doe anyone get the feeling of sort of snobbery in pediatric residencies with a tendency to negate the positive aspects of other fields of medicine? Just curious if this was me or something that others have to "work around" when dealing with pediatric attendings? I have heard people who consider pediatrics are similar to those who consider surgery, maybe "prestige" is an issue? I really love internal medicine *almost* as much as pediatrics, but think it would be wearring to heard pediatricians slam other specialties non-stop.

Advocating for children, to me, is probably the most appealing aspect of a pediatrician's work. I have worked with other pediatricians who do such things, and I don't think it's necessarily a power trip. Yes, there is an element of power involved if an adult (pediatrician or otherwise) spends time and effort influencing policy and/or the public on children's issues, because the kids are not able to accomplish such things. But if you're doing it with the best interests of children in mind, such as keeping them safe from injury, or raising awareness of neglect/abuse, etc., then I wouldn't say it's a power trip. Maybe for some people it's a power trip.

About the end of #2 with pediatricians slamming other specialties, I bet it's just a personal issue for those individuals. I really don't remember working with pediatric attendings who slam other specialties. Pediatric residents are another story. That said, I remember having a pediatric subspecialist give us a lecture and mention that pediatricians are the happiest overall and the lowest paid, but it wasn't a slam on any other specialty or the way physicians practice in them, I think just how our society values healthcare for children and adults (from the perspective of a person caring for kids).

 

[TexasRose]

DN,
In my experience, surgeons and IM docs have been the ones to talk about why their specialties are the "most" important. Most of the pediatricians and pedi specialists I have interacted with have been very approachable and friendly. Pediatrics has a reputation for being an especially friendly and happy field.

Perhaps your program has an unusual group of pedi docs.

 

[DarthNeurology]

DN,
In my experience, surgeons and IM docs have been the ones to talk about why their specialties are the "most" important. Most of the pediatricians and pedi specialists I have interacted with have been very approachable and friendly. Pediatrics has a reputation for being an especially friendly and happy field.

Perhaps your program has an unusual group of pedi docs.

I guess so, overall I have had more positive experiences with IM docs which seem more down to earth . . . do you go to a school that is affiliated with an academic or private pediatric clerkship experience? I haven't seen any super happy pediatricians yet . . . 😕

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

Not to start a flame war or anything, but some of the recent posts on role of pediatricians sort of make me reflect on some of what I perceived as the negative aspects of pediatrics, (although I am a student interested in pediatrics!😳), mainly:

1. Pediatric attendings seem a little offish to students who are interested in their field and don't seem as inclined to "mentor" or I guess just talk about pediatrics with students. I literally had a pediatric attending who knew I wanted to do pediatrics, and basically just pimped me and socialized/taught the other student who wanted anesthesiology, maybe because he thought that he was "smarter" to do that? Is there sort of an "eat-their-own" attitude amoung pediatric attendings and their students?

2. Pediatric attendings talk a lot about how important their work with children is with comments very similar to posts here like how pediatricians advocate for chidren and how important their role is, I sort of really liked this about pediatrics, but I am wondering now if it is sort of a power trip? Or put another way, if I want to "advocate" and care for children exclusively as a pediatrician is this a power trip? Without internists to keep the adults (parents) well and alive this also affects a child's life greatly (i.e. if mom is sick all the time), plus there are so many other doctors that work with or help critically ill children like pediatric surgeon, pediatric anesthesiologists, pediatric radiologists, and even family practicioners who take care of children, doe anyone get the feeling of sort of snobbery in pediatric residencies with a tendency to negate the positive aspects of other fields of medicine? Just curious if this was me or something that others have to "work around" when dealing with pediatric attendings? I have heard people who consider pediatrics are similar to those who consider surgery, maybe "prestige" is an issue? I really love internal medicine *almost* as much as pediatrics, but think it would be wearring to heard pediatricians slam other specialties non-stop.

3. Mostly I have seen male pediatric attendings who talk up the superiority of pediatrics, how do female pediatric attendings relate to male pediatric residents? I.e. is it like Ob/Gyn where male residents have a very hard time? I would guess for most child visits I won't need a chaperone as an attending or resident, being a male, right? Do a lot of parents/patients want just a female pediatrician? 😕 I just want to make sure I have answer to these questions so I feel more confident when I apply I guess

Concerning #1, I'm really not sure what you mean. As soon as I tell any pediatrician, be it resident or attending, that I want to do pedi, they become super helpful and supportive. They tell me how to avoid road blocks in medical school, and what experiences I need to foster my interest in pedi. This is one of the major reasons I'm attracted to pediatrics in the first place. Maybe you've just run into the wrong people

Number 2: I guess I can see what you're saying because pediatricians are very interested in advocating for kids, but I really think they go above and beyond in this arena and rightfully speak highly of their field in this regard. The pediatritians at my school are extremely active in the community. They even put together a "Physicians as advocate" elective for medical students, so that we know how to advocate for our patient populations. I haven't found that level of commitment or involvement in other specialties. This doesn't mean that those other specialties aren't as important, or that pediatricians think they're better than other docs.

Maybe you should take an away rotation to see how other pedi programs work, and if you still have these same complaints.

 

[DarthNeurology]

Concerning #1, I'm really not sure what you mean. As soon as I tell any pediatrician, be it resident or attending, that I want to do pedi, they become super helpful and supportive. They tell me how to avoid road blocks in medical school, and what experiences I need to foster my interest in pedi. This is one of the major reasons I'm attracted to pediatrics in the first place. Maybe you've just run into the wrong people

Number 2: I guess I can see what you're saying because pediatricians are very interested in advocating for kids, but I really think they go above and beyond in this arena and rightfully speak highly of their field in this regard. The pediatritians at my school are extremely active in the community. They even put together a "Physicians as advocate" elective for medical students, so that we know how to advocate for our patient populations. I haven't found that level of commitment or involvement in other specialties. This doesn't mean that those other specialties aren't as important, or that pediatricians think they're better than other docs.

Maybe you should take an away rotation to see how other pedi programs work, and if you still have these same complaints.

I would pay to have Number 1 happen to me! I am doing a pedi elective elsewhere in a while and I will post my experiences maybe I will find those supportive pediatricians. . . they gotta be out there somewhere!🙂

 

[DarthNeurology]

Dear DN:
If you believe that pediatricians have, as a group, some of the characteristics you describe in this and multiple other threads, and that our passion for child-advocacy is some form of snobbery, then I think you will not be happy in pediatrics.

Doesn't make sense to base a career decision on a couple of pediatricians who are unethusiastic about pediatrics in general, not just me. I think if you like caring for kids you will be happy in pediatrics. If you ask me your dismissive tone is a little like some pediatric snobbery I have seen, i.e. making unjustified conclusions about someone's fit in pediatrics. I could easily say that being a neonatologist is a lot different from being in general pediatrics and seeing children of all ages, but then again what do I know? Its the general attitude of some pediatricians, not their "advocacy of children" that is disheartening, of note I haven't yet heard stories from pediatricians I have worked with about how they are advocating for children outside their clinic or NICU as it were, . . . I HAVE spent real time in the outside world working to promote the health of children in volunteer roles, so next time you post remember, a mean thought starts with a generalized idea in your brain, . . . go back to ooogggling female residents like you stated in a prior thread (creepy!)

 

[Sweet Tea]

Wow.

 

[kate0834tkjn]

Wow.

I will echo that "wow."

And in response, I have found the pediatricians I've worked with the be extremely supportive and encouraging. In fact, when I started my peds rotation, I wasn't interested AT ALL in peds, but now, I'm almost convinced it's what I want to do. I found that in peds, much more so than in surgery or IM or ob-gyn, the attendings were willing to talk to students, didn't look down on us (one of my attendings actually encouraged me to call her by her first name and signs all her emails that way), were very collaborative with other departments (ie didn't make negative comments about surgeons, radiologists, etc), were always putting the patient/family first....I could go on for awhile here! 🙂 I also find the interest in advocacy somewhat unique among fields....again, it could just be my experience, but I'm constantly getting emails from my peds attendings to email my respresentatives, or to attend an advocacy workshop, etc, which NEVER happened on any of my other rotations. And I guess I could see how this could come off as being somewhat snobbish, and I don't doubt that some pediatricians are that way, but there are definitely those who aren't.


Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, but for what it's worth, the pediatricians I've worked with have been extremely friendly, enthusiastic about teaching/mentoring, and genuinely dedicated to improving healthcare for children. And I agree w/ someone above that I ran into much more snobby attitudes on medicine and surgery.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[johnnywalker]

wow times 2.

it is becoming clearer why 'your pediatric attending who knew I wanted to do pediatrics, and basically just pimped me and socialized/taught the other student who wanted anesthesiology'

 

[DarthNeurology]

I will echo that "wow."

And in response, I have found the pediatricians I've worked with the be extremely supportive and encouraging. In fact, when I started my peds rotation, I wasn't interested AT ALL in peds, but now, I'm almost convinced it's what I want to do. I found that in peds, much more so than in surgery or IM or ob-gyn, the attendings were willing to talk to students, didn't look down on us (one of my attendings actually encouraged me to call her by her first name and signs all her emails that way), were very collaborative with other departments (ie didn't make negative comments about surgeons, radiologists, etc), were always putting the patient/family first....I could go on for awhile here! 🙂 I also find the interest in advocacy somewhat unique among fields....again, it could just be my experience, but I'm constantly getting emails from my peds attendings to email my respresentatives, or to attend an advocacy workshop, etc, which NEVER happened on any of my other rotations. And I guess I could see how this could come off as being somewhat snobbish, and I don't doubt that some pediatricians are that way, but there are definitely those who aren't.

Just my 2 cents.

That is the type of experience I wanted in my peds core rotation, oh well, I don't think it is just me as I did do a peds elective a while ago I forgot about, . . . those pediatricians did like me a lot (PediER docs maybe that doesn't count), i.e. told other students that ("He (I) is very good, go follow him around"), and got great evals rather than just good evals I guess . . . other students have complained about where I did my pediatrics core, so there are mean pediatricians out there I guess my bad luck running into a bunch I guess birds of a feather really do stick together, it is hard reading about how other students had such wonderful pediatric core rotations, oh well I guess that life,🙁

 

[DarthNeurology]

wow times 2.

it is becoming clearer why 'your pediatric attending who knew I wanted to do pediatrics, and basically just pimped me and socialized/taught the other student who wanted anesthesiology'

I'm just jaded now.😡 Came in with a lot of enthusiasm though. 🙁 I just mentioned once I wanted to do pediatrics when asked, maybe you have to bring it up a lot? Sorta glad the guy left academics half a year later . . .

 

[johnnywalker]

birds of a feather? no...i think just people that love pediatrics and you are obviously just being obnoxious. i did some digging, cos most posts written by you and then read by me unfortunately, made me wish i could have that time back to do important things, clipping fingernails..., and then came up with your list of "How to honor Pediatrics" (below) and what seemed like a funny survival guide then. Now it seems to be a sad state of affairs of your pediatric rotation, either you were insincere and annoying to staff/residents and deserved the tx you got, or the rotation was actually bad. most likely a combo of both

1. Tell a story about your visit to a peds office as a child, and how interesting it is to be on the other side of door so to speak.
2. Again, your most important patient is the pediatrician. Pay close attention to how they are feeling and ask them why they choose pediatrics, what they liked or disliked about residency.
3. Offer to give a short lecture on a topic of your choice, make is short because pediatricians have a short attention span generally when compared to internists and make cute comments and puns.
4. If your pediatricians are not impressed with cute kids but more serious then engage them on their hobbies such as collecting beached drift wood, "Wow, I had no idea that drift wood could be hand carved in such a versatile manner."
5. Bring toys, i.e. a small Barney or something to entertain the kids in clinic, and bring a toy to entertain the residents, i.e. Harriett-Lane that you can use to look up those pimp questions that no one can answer.
6. Tell them you looked forward to Peds because you get to see a lot of cute kids, if they start to talk about how pediatrics is more than cute kids, ask them after listening sincerely, "Wow, you really have to love children to go into Pediatrics"
7. Read blueprints pediatrics and pre-test pediatrics, don't get fancy and scare attending and residents with diseases they don't know about! If you read too much you may be acosted in the hallway by a newby pediatrician with a tongue-depressor who will yell, "You think Your Better than Me!" several times before breaking down and saying he really wanted a Surgery residency and choose pediatrics as a backup.
8. Don't own up to wanting to go into Pediatrics even if you want to, as it will sound made up (for real, sucks being screwed by med students who didn't want to do peds saying they did, . . . ), when asked if you want to do Pediatrics say you are undecided then later sheepishly ask questions about what Pediatricians do, the less you know about the profession the better. Pediatricians like to explain what they do to non-converts.

 

[kate0834tkjn]

That is the type of experience I wanted in my peds core rotation, oh well, I don't think it is just me as I did do a peds elective a while ago I forgot about, . . . those pediatricians did like me a lot (PediER docs maybe that doesn't count), i.e. told other students that ("He (I) is very good, go follow him around"), and got great evals rather than just good evals I guess . . . other students have complained about where I did my pediatrics core, so there are mean pediatricians out there I guess my bad luck running into a bunch I guess birds of a feather really do stick together, it is hard reading about how other students had such wonderful pediatric core rotations, oh well I guess that life,🙁

Yes, I feel very lucky to have gotten the good experience that I had. Hopefully it's the rule, not the exception!

Good luck to you in the future--I hope you meet some pediatricians (or attendings in other fields) that will serve as good mentors/role models for you!

 

[Bienchen]

DN, you've been posting at least 6 times per day since you joined, and most of your posts are very loooong and rambling - maybe you need something else to do with your time ?

 

[TexasRose]

Okay, this thread is getting too personal. I would like to remind everyone what they agreed to in the TOS and ask that we keep comments civil and refrain from personal insults.

Thank you.

 

[phoenix]

I read this post earlier in the day, and found myself still thinking about it. I don't even come close to agreeing with DN, but I had a negative experience during my Pediatrics rotation. I never really felt "welcomed" by the Pediatrics attendings at my home institution, and it is something that worries me as I am about to start applying for residency. I have talked to several other students (and residents) who had the same experience as me, then did away rotations at other institutions, and have now matched into Peds. I know that I am committed to Pediatrics. However, I still wonder/worry if I don't fit it with Pediatricians in general, or if it is just a bad experience at one place. I am going to be doing away rotations and hope to find supportive attendings elsewhere, but I just thought I would post my experience, in case there is anyone else out there like me.