Pediatric Fellowship?

[grapp]

Hi,

I like the idea of becoming an emergency room physician. Although, I know it might change...

If I were to fellowship in pediatrics, would I be making the same salary as if I were doing residency?

Or, would I be compensated as an emergency room physician?

Thank you for any answers.

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[pedstar09]

Fellows generally earn more than general practitioners in pediatrics. According to Careers in Medicine, average income of a Peds EM specialist is 270K, a general EM doc is 286K.

Bottom line: If you do Peds EM, you will make more than a general pediatrician, but less than a general EM doc.

 

[BigRedBeta]

@pedstar09 is complicating the picture...

While you are in training you will be making a salary commiserate with your years of prior training.

For example, if you are a first year fellow, and did not do an extra Chief resident year, you'll be in year 4 of training. (If you were a chief, then it would be the PGY-5 level). You will make the same $ as a PGY-4 as a 4th year general surgery resident, just as when you were a peds resident making the same as the other residents in other fields.

As a trainee you're not generating billable income so you don't make the money an attending will.

Once you're through training, then, yes, Peds EM attendings generally make more money than general pediatricians, but this is not true for every subspecialist. Some specialties like Peds ID or Peds Endo make less salary than general pediatricians. As a rule, Pediatric specialists do not make the same amount of money as their adult counterparts.

 

[grapp]

@pedstar09 is complicating the picture...

While you are in training you will be making a salary commiserate with your years of prior training.

For example, if you are a first year fellow, and did not do an extra Chief resident year, you'll be in year 4 of training. (If you were a chief, then it would be the PGY-5 level). You will make the same $ as a PGY-4 as a 4th year general surgery resident, just as when you were a peds resident making the same as the other residents in other fields.

As a trainee you're not generating billable income so you don't make the money an attending will.

Once you're through training, then, yes, Peds EM attendings generally make more money than general pediatricians, but this is not true for every subspecialist. Some specialties like Peds ID or Peds Endo make less salary than general pediatricians. As a rule, Pediatric specialists do not make the same amount of money as their adult counterparts.

How competitive is an EM residency? I know there's a list somewhere, but I'm not sure exactly what to search?

 

[mvenus929]

EM is becoming more and more competitive. A Peds EM fellowship after EM will be easy to get into, after Peds would be slightly more challenging.

You can moonlight as a fellow. Our Peds EM fellows in their second and third year pick up several shifts as the second attending in our ED. I imagine how much you can moonlight will depend on where you do fellowship.

 

[grapp]

EM is becoming more and more competitive. A Peds EM fellowship after EM will be easy to get into, after Peds would be slightly more challenging.

You can moonlight as a fellow. Our Peds EM fellows in their second and third year pick up several shifts as the second attending in our ED. I imagine how much you can moonlight will depend on where you do fellowship.

Alright haha, hope I get the chance by the time I get there. As of now from what I've seen, it's pretty loose... But, as you mentioned over the years it has slowly been becoming more competitive.

 

[Cytarabine]

Fellows generally earn more than general practitioners in pediatrics. According to Careers in Medicine, average income of a Peds EM specialist is 270K, a general EM doc is 286K.

Bottom line: If you do Peds EM, you will make more than a general pediatrician, but less than a general EM doc.

Wasn't there a study that came out a while back showing there were only 3 ped fellowships that increased or were net neutral for lifetime earnings as compared to gen peds?

 

[grapp]

Wasn't there a study that came out a while back showing there were only 3 ped fellowships that increased or were net neutral for lifetime earnings as compared to gen peds?

Could be.. Not sure, I just like the idea of being able to adapt as a future ER physician if someone comes in with a toddler and have the ability to render care without having to page pediatrics. Just a thought merely.

 

[Cytarabine]

Could be.. Not sure, I just like the idea of being able to adapt as a future ER physician if someone comes in with a toddler and have the ability to render care without having to page pediatrics. Just a thought merely.

Just challenging an assertion, not arguing against peds fellowship. Probably heading in that direction myself

 

[grapp]

Just challenging an assertion, not arguing against peds fellowship. Probably heading in that direction myself

Could be, of course it's nice to be able to pay off debt relatively at an efficient level. But, as a phyisican at the same time I'd presume you can live comfortably based on what I've heard. Might be a few more years, but it may be worth it.

 

[mvenus929]

Wasn't there a study that came out a while back showing there were only 3 ped fellowships that increased or were net neutral for lifetime earnings as compared to gen peds?

Yes, and it showed Cards, PICU, and NICU were financially worth it. I'm not sure if EM was included.

But if you come to Peds EM via EM, you will make what an EM doc makes, generally. After all, you can treat adults too. There really isn't much advantage to doing a Peds EM fellowship after EM, unless it's just to get additional comfort with taking care of peds patients. You do take care of peds patients during EM, it's just not a focus. Especially if you are doing EM next to a children's hospital, like our EM residents

 

[Cytarabine]

Yes, and it showed Cards, PICU, and NICU were financially worth it. I'm not sure if EM was included.

But if you come to Peds EM via EM, you will make what an EM doc makes, generally. After all, you can treat adults too. There really isn't much advantage to doing a Peds EM fellowship after EM, unless it's just to get additional comfort with taking care of peds patients. You do take care of peds patients during EM, it's just not a focus. Especially if you are doing EM next to a children's hospital, like our EM residents

I think it was this one - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/127/2/254 off campus and don't have access at the moment. I think heme/onc was listed as neutral in whichever study I read

 

[mvenus929]

I think it was this one - http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/127/2/254 off campus and don't have access at the moment. I think heme/onc was listed as neutral in whichever study I read

Seems EM was included, and it was the closest to neutral. Heme/Onc came in after EM, GI, and Pulm (which are all also procedure based).

However, they made some very interesting assumptions--that basically everyone who did a subspecialty went into academic medicine. Which is probably true in some fields (you don't see ID docs working in private practice terribly often), it's not true of all. They also incorporated loans into the calculation and assumed that everyone would defer loans during residency and fellowship, that the interest would capitalize after both, and that subsequent payments would be made over 25 years. Which is interesting, given the prospect of PSLF, which seems like it would be easier to get as an academic physician having gone through 6 years of training than a general pediatrician.

But yes, Cards, NICU, and PICU were the net positive net worth people in the end.

 

[grapp]

Yes, and it showed Cards, PICU, and NICU were financially worth it. I'm not sure if EM was included.

But if you come to Peds EM via EM, you will make what an EM doc makes, generally. After all, you can treat adults too. There really isn't much advantage to doing a Peds EM fellowship after EM, unless it's just to get additional comfort with taking care of peds patients. You do take care of peds patients during EM, it's just not a focus. Especially if you are doing EM next to a children's hospital, like our EM residents

Definetely something to keep in mind, thank you.