pediatric neurology

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omelette1230

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Hi,

I just got accepted to medical school after working in a neuroscience lab for 5 years. I'm really interested in epilepsy, especially in children and have co-authored 15 papers. I was just wondering why child neurology is not as popular and whether its a good field to pursue. Also, why is the salary so bad?

thanks

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Hi,

I just got accepted to medical school after working in a neuroscience lab for 5 years. I'm really interested in epilepsy, especially in children and have co-authored 15 papers. I was just wondering why child neurology is not as popular and whether its a good field to pursue. Also, why is the salary so bad?

thanks

The first part of your posts indicates that you might find Child Neurology interesting, or you might not, remember a lot of people change their minds during medical school and fortunately you will gain exposure to a broad range of disciplines, some during the first two years i.e. perhaps an internal medicine clinic half a day a week. But really during your third year you might decide that ob/gyn or surgery is for you, or you may take a peds neurology elective and find out that you love it.

1. Why is child neurology not so popular?

Child neurology is a pediatric specialty, and as such will draw only from those who find that they like working with children. Many medical students find that dealing with screaming children and very worried parents is not for them after having planned on a doing a pediatric subspecialty as a career. So, at a get-go child neurology draws from a limited slice of the medical student pie.

The work of a child neurologist is very different from other fields of medicine. You may often times spend huge amounts of time filling out paperwork for getting services for children and doing other work which appears non-medical in nature to a novice, such as talking with parents at length about problems a child is having relating with siblings at home.

There are not a lot of procedures in child neurology, which means lower salary, and that to do a good ethical job you may need to spend more time with patients than an internist or pediatrician would be able to. So it is hard to bill and quantify what a child neurologist does. Most epilepsy in children is not treated by child neurologists and is treated by pediatricians, child neurologists are consulted with atypical or difficult to treat epilepsy which takes more time. While there may be a shortage, or actually severe shortage of child neurologists in an area, many of the functions of a child neurologist can be performed by pediatricians or adult neurologists who may have a fellowship in child neurology. So, no, not even a high demand for child neurologists has driven up salary as you really need to take your time when seeing these patients. Most pediatric subspecialties don't pay a whole lot more than general pediatrics, very different from adult subspecialties which have a lot of procedures.

The length of training is a real consideration. For a combined program, a resident does 2 years of Pediatrics (or 1 year of peds and research, or one year of internal medicine and one year of pediatrics) and then 3 years of child neurology. This is five years total, so it takes a committed person who can delay paying back loans to do this. Many peds people opt to do a general pediatrics residency and then decide to do a fellowship from there, which you could do for child neurology, but then the length of the training would be 6 years.

While there are other residencies that are long, like neurosurgery and general surgery (5 years plus fellowship . . . ) child neurology is not seen as glamorous as these perhaps and many medical students have no exposure to the field.

2. Is Child Neurology a good field?

Demand is good, outside of a few metropolitan areas, but this has not translated to a relatively higher salary than other physicians. Of course you can earn a good living as any type of physician and the issue might be how well respected are child neurologists? Neurologists have in the past enjoyed a large amount of respect, being able to localize lesions and as master diagnosticians, but with MRI and Head CT, these days have largely passed, and the golden age of Neurology being held in a very high esteem has passed. At least when I did a neurology elective, the general peds service wasn't especially impressed with neurology and most residents were interested in critical care, neonatology and peds cardiology. There is a perception that neurologists can't cure anything also, perhaps more so for child neurologists as no can cure as yet the multitude of developmental disorders or epilepsy, though I am sure you know more about gene therapy and channelopathies than I, so you know there is a lot of interesting bench neuroscience research. Most neurologists view their work as important and their input important, and caring for children with epilepsy IS important even if they can't be cured. I was surprised in medical school that the most sought after/respected specialties were surgical specialties such as ENT/Ortho, and other fields such as radiology even, these students seemed to have a real passion for entering these fields as well, or at least were desperate in waiting to get a position in these fields.

You would have to decide if Child Neurology is for you after having done third year clerkships, ideally take pediatrics clerkship first, and if you like it then sign up for a child neurology elective. Of note, many child neurologists feel satisified with their career regardless of the longer training and pay, although I haven't seen them specifically singled out on the list of top 5 careers in medicine that have the most satisfaction. The average Step 1 for child neurology residency matriculants was around 222 or so this, year, which is almost identical for the vastly larger number of people going into internal medicine, however, there are a lot of people with research background in child neurology.

My advice would be to study hard during the first two years, and do something fun during the summer, you already have a lot of research, and give Child Neurology a look, and if you are still interested in neuroscience research and really see yourself enjoying child neurology despite what others say about the field then perhaps it is for you, but definitely keep your options open.

There is website for the Child Neurology Society:

http://www.childneurologysociety.org
 
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thanks for the input. right now my goal is to treat epileptic patients. all ive been doing in the lab is recording EEGs from epileptic mice and ive looked at ~20000 hrs of EEGs. i know i'll enjoy the research because i have so far and was thinking that my knowledge of seizures could translate to the clinic. i thought that i would do a residency then do a clinical neurophys fellowship...but i know its a ways off and im keeping an open mind as well.

thanks again for your thorough post.
 
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Pediatric epileptology pays well, but for the most part requires an academic practice, which subsidize the Ped Neurologist without procedures.

Why salaries are lower? They actually have increase as of the late 5 years because there are so few Ped Neurologists. However, the true answer is the patient mix seen in clinic.
Three points about this:
a) young parents don't have much money (vs elderly)
b) Medicaid reimbursement is based on state finances and lower (vs Medicare)
c) Clinic pays less than procedures

Pediatric epileptology would require 3 yrs of Pediatrics, 3 yrs of Neurology, 2 yrs of Epileptology....
Compare that to Adult Epileptology
1 yr IM, 3 yrs Neurology, 2 yrs Epileptology

Doing one year for Epileptology would not make it for phase II (intracranial grids and strips, etc). By the time that you will be doing this, I expect that Epileptology will be an ACGME 2 yr recognized fellowship with ABPN Board Certification.
 
If you don't mind, I'll chime in as someone who seriously considered the field but ended up going another (very different) direction.

I was fascinated by congenital anomalies and knew throughout third year that I wanted to work with congenital pathology. I greatly enjoyed the analytical, cerebral nature of my neurology clerkship and felt impressed by the fact that these dreadful, very serious diseases could wreak such devastating havoc on a patient's life and functioning. Pediatric neurology seemed like the answer.

1) Unpopular: Child neurology is not popular with medical students for two reasons. The first is that it's not a procedure-based specialty, draws heavily from patients clustered in the lower levels of the socio-economic spectrum, and therefore does not reimburse highly. That didn't bother me one bit, but most people feel that if they spend 5+ years in postgraduate training they don't want to make less than most primary care physicians. The second reason was the one that got me-- it's a very sad field. As of now, there are very few effective treatment modalities. Sure, there is intellectual joy in coming to a proper diagnosis, and there is satisfaction in fighting for services, prostheses, supplemental income, etc for one's patients. But I found that I simply couldn't tolerate 'documenting the decline' of pediatric patients, no matter how interesting I found their conditions.

People are obviously different, with different temperaments. What I saw as idly standing by with tied hands others see as enabling neglected patients live dignified lives, making the best of the cards they were dealt.

2) Is this a good field? Overwhelmingly yes. Pediatric neurologists top the surveys year after year as the most satisfied doctors and those who are least likely to change their specialty. You get to work with children while treating/researching some of the most fascinating diseases in the medical nosology books. There is currently a grave shortage of boarded child neurologists in most areas of the country-- and patients are desperate to see them. Many travel 100+ miles in my home state to reach a metro area to have their child seen.

My take, however, is that the sort of person who is likely to succeed as a child neurologist is relatively rare in both the general and especially the medical school population. So while it's an excellent field, I don't think it's for everyone. It certainly wasn't right for me-- I'm heading into a surgical subspecialty and I feel that my attitude towards patients is very 'interventional' and 'curative.' Many medical students feel the same way.

If it *is* right for you, you'll know-- and you're lucky, because you'll be surrounded by literally the nicest colleagues in medicine, and have a richly satisfying practice with patients (parents) who are very grateful for your attention, which happens to have the potential to be intellectually very challenging as well.
 
thanks for your advice,

one of the reasons that im partial toward epilepsy is because you can do something for your patients. i'm really interested in seizures after studying them for so long. i'm hoping that it will help me treat the kids better.

i have to get back to my mouse, its in status.
 
1) Unpopular: Child neurology is not popular with medical students for two reasons. The first is that it's not a procedure-based specialty, draws heavily from patients clustered in the lower levels of the socio-economic spectrum, and therefore does not reimburse highly. That didn't bother me one bit, but most people feel that if they spend 5+ years in postgraduate training they don't want to make less than most primary care physicians.

You get to work with children while treating/researching some of the most fascinating diseases in the medical nosology books. There is currently a grave shortage of boarded child neurologists in most areas of the country--

My take, however, is that the sort of person who is likely to succeed as a child neurologist is relatively rare in both the general and especially the medical school population.
So while it's an excellent field, I don't think it's for everyone. It certainly wasn't right for me-- I'm heading into a surgical subspecialty and I feel that my attitude towards patients is very 'interventional' and 'curative.'

I am not sure that Child Neurology being "not procedure based" would turn off all medical students as those going into internal medicine, general pediatrics, psychiatry, radiology, pathology etc . . . won't necessarily be doing a lot of procedures. Coming from BD who is planning on doing plastic surgery, I guess Child Neurology wouldn't offer enough procedures for someone who wants to do surgery though. However, there are opportunities to do EMGs, LPs etc . . . just you won't be as well compensated.

I don't think that child neurology draws heavily from the lower socieconomic spectrum at all, and this is why it doesn't reimburse highly. It is more how the government decides such and such visits are worth and traditionally procedures seem to be worth more. The various pediatric neurological disorders affect children of all socioeconomic groups and in fact, anecdotal evidence points to there being more cases of autism amoung families of higher socieconomic standing. The poorest of the poor may have difficulty finding the services of a child neurologist, especially without a clear diagnosis. Same as any other pediatric or medical specialty service, you will see patients from all backgrounds, I did when I did a child neurology elective.

I think that only dermatology and plastic surgery will get a huge percentage of their salary difference from higher socioeconomic groups as often this work is "elective" and plastic surgeons can charge higher rates for out of pocket fees for a face lift.

Child neurology is very interventional in a way in that your prescribing often powerfully psychoactive medications and epilepsy medications to treat very real and life threatening disorders. Although that is not what BD means when she says interventional.

But what percentage of medical students would "succeed" at being a child neurologist? Probably much higher than those who actually do child neurology as most medical students would be able to be happy with more than one medical specialty, I would guess that well over half of pediatric residents would be able to succeed quite well at being a Child Neurologist as it is not quite as intellectual at it sounds, it is just that life gets in the way and someone might not want to do 5 years of training when considering starting a family and the pressure to head out into the real world and be done with residency training.

I think actually a bigger problem is that there is no team work and no good mentoring being done for students who are clearly interested in Child Neurology. Is there a Child Neurology shortage? Certainly there is a waiting time sometimes in the range of months, but then again we are dealing with often times chronic conditions which can be managed by a pediatrician until a consult with a Child Neurologist can be made. Now days pediatricians and neurologists are treating conditions that Child Neurologists might hand if there were more of them. Speaking with dozens of child neurologists about child neurology or just with neurologists about a career in neurology there is very little excitement about the field and very little mention of any groundbreaking research. I think many medical students don't want to enter a field with a lack of mentors and often feel like you are on your own.

Maybe BD can back this up, but medical students/residents who are interested in an ENT surgical residency/career are gung-ho about being in ENT, feel very lucky to be in ENT and get along great with attendings and fellow residents and you can literally feel the excitment and group connection that these surgeons feel that they are really helping people and doing very extraordinary work. I was once on a plane with dozens of people coming back from doing voluteer plastic surgery in a developing nation, and you tell they got along great and loved what they were doing.

I would not agree that Child Neurologists have the same level of comaraderie at all, many I have met were *very* aloof and pseudointellectual types who wore tweed suits. I never got beyond a couple sentences after saying I was interested in Child Neurology, so I would disagree that Child Neurologists are a great group to work with. If I decided to do a child neurology fellowship later it would be wanting to work with that group of patients and NOT for wanting to be in on the child neurology scene. The problem is that so few students want to do Child Neurology, that you can't get a serious mentor, and forget about trying to find someone who is child neurologist AND does significant global health work, you basically mentor yourself as this was/and maybe my future path. There aren't enough -good- child neurology positions, i.e. the top ones at the usually great top medical school places are good, but there are a whole lot of bad programs that don't fill each year, and for a good reason. Clearly there is a lack of effort somewhere amoung child neurologists were recruiting students to child neurology is not a priority or concern, make me suspect the "shortage", while true in some instances, is bogus.

Every field of medicine can be intellectually challenging, so I wouldn't necessarily say Child Neurology is more intellectually challenging than any others, there are different types of intellectual challenges in medicine, child cardiology, child nephrology, child hem/onc can be very intellectually challenging, as much or more so than child neurology. The average Step 1 for child neurology matriculants hovers around 216-222 or so, about average, so I don't think that there is any special draw for the most gifted students to do Child Neurology, it is more of wanting to work with that patient population. Because there are more internal medicine residency spots, much much more people with 235+ on USMLE going into internal medicine and surgical subspecialties. I think when applying for residency you may "know" you want to do some field, but often times people switch residencies, often from pretty competitive fields, so there is some level of guess work involved.

In my mind specialties with the best comraderie are:

1. Surgery, especially subspecialty surgery.
2. Internal Medicine, especially critical care
3. Family Medicine
 
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Interesting, Darth. Are you still planning on going into it?

The Child Neurology residents/fellows at P&S are a warm, wonderful, highly intelligent bunch-- it's as if there was a Venn Diagram between neurologists, pediatricians and child psychiatrists, and they all fall perfectly in the overlap. The two attendings who mentored me during my interest were the same. And one student from my med school who matched into Child Neuro last year kept raving about how she knew the field was a perfect fit for her since her colleagues were so marvelous. I agree that the tweed suit and bowtie is over-prevalent in adult neuro, but it's been my experience that anyone who dedicates their medical career to the care of children is a more relaxed, cheerful person than their adult counterparts.

I could be wrong, but I think the majority of medical students enjoy procedures. By no means all, but the majority. And I think the nature of the Major Clinical Year (which in most medical schools is conducted >80% at tertiary care institutions) leads med students to favor the high-tech, highly interventional, "cool" fields of medicine. That coupled with the desire to "make a difference" leads most medical students towards acute, rather than chronic, care. Or so I think.

It's interesting that you say surgical subspecialists have the highest degree of camaraderie of all the medical specialties. When I think of it, I think you're absolutely right. Perhaps it's based on a "in the trenches" style we've-all-been-through-hardship-together factor? Or maybe since they're currently very competitive to get into, there is a good deal of respect and trust in the ability of one's colleagues?
 
I was wondering,

we know that a lot of diseases here are incurable, so what is done in cases like this? Are there treatments for diseases we cant cure? whats the process of dealing with a patient you cant do anything for?
 
I was wondering,

we know that a lot of diseases here are incurable, so what is done in cases like this? Are there treatments for diseases we cant cure? whats the process of dealing with a patient you cant do anything for?

There is never truly a patient that you can't do anything for, even hospice patients will have their pneumoniae and UTIs treated to improve quality of life.

This question is pretty general and depends on the disease process. For a patient with epilepsy, obviously, there are pharmacologic treatments and in the future more advavnced gene therapy, there is also neurosurgery for advanced cases of epilepsy. Many people who are neuroscience strong and want to do something brain related must decide between neurology, neurosurgery, and interventional neuroradiology . . . different types of interventions, some surgical and some pharmacological.
 
There is never truly a patient that you can't do anything for, even hospice patients will have their pneumoniae and UTIs treated to improve quality of life.

This question is pretty general and depends on the disease process. For a patient with epilepsy, obviously, there are pharmacologic treatments and in the future more advavnced gene therapy, there is also neurosurgery for advanced cases of epilepsy. Many people who are neuroscience strong and want to do something brain related must decide between neurology, neurosurgery, and interventional neuroradiology . . . different types of interventions, some surgical and some pharmacological.

BrainMRI_Sagittal.jpg

Whazaaaaap!!! :D:thumbup:
 
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Hi everyone, I just finished my third year of medical school, and am planning to go into pediatrics. I recently read an AAP article about pediatric neurology, and it sounds pretty interesting, but unfortunately, I don't know enough about it. I am planning to do an elective in pediatric neurology early during my fourth year, but would like to get advice from someone in the field. Can anyone help?

Thanks!
 
Hi everyone, I just finished my third year of medical school, and am planning to go into pediatrics. I recently read an AAP article about pediatric neurology, and it sounds pretty interesting, but unfortunately, I don't know enough about it. I am planning to do an elective in pediatric neurology early during my fourth year, but would like to get advice from someone in the field. Can anyone help?

Thanks!

So, it's been pretty quiet on this forum. Since my last post, I decided to pursue Child Neurology, and I matched. I'm happy to talk to anyone who is thinking of entering the field, and I hope I can share my experiences.
 
So, it's been pretty quiet on this forum. Since my last post, I decided to pursue Child Neurology, and I matched. I'm happy to talk to anyone who is thinking of entering the field, and I hope I can share my experiences.
Hey congrats on matching! I would love to hear about your experiences, especially if you did any aways and if you plan on matching your pediatrics years in the same place where you'll do neuro. Any interview stories would be awesome too (I'm personally geographically restricted to Houston and Boston, but any feedback would be useful). I'm staring at my MS4 schedule and both application systems (SF and ERAS), and it all seems kind of daunting right now!
 
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