Peds Case

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Mind me asking what makes you guys stay away from etomidate? I've noticed you guys love propofol in general... I love propofol for procedural sedations and drips in vented patients but usually shy to induce with it (usually in the ED when intubating they are unstable and I'm hesitant to drop the BP). It seems you guys go for pressors pretty quick so maybe that's the difference? I also feel like it wears off so fast it is easy for them to be paralyze and not sedated in the ED setting (confirming the tube, getting drips setup, resuscitating, other procedures, etc). Just curious what you input is.

Your reasons for intubation are generally speaking far different than ours. Your intubated patients are physiologically often far different than ours. You have a RN standing by retrieving drugs and pushing them per your order. We have syringes of pressors at the ready already drawn up that we give ourselves.

Etomidate is a dirty drug but unless you’re extremely proficient with propofol and willing to give a little tincture of time for a reduced dose to work then just use the etomidate. Or ketamine if you feel comfortable with it.

The OR is not the ED. There are areas of overlap but when you’re intubating a septic full stomach don’t get fancy with propofol if you’re not used to it in that scenario. Same goes when you’re intubating for airway protection. Use what your comfortable with. I’m not judging you.

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Your reasons for intubation are generally speaking far different than ours. Your intubated patients are physiologically often far different than ours. You have a RN standing by retrieving drugs and pushing them per your order. We have syringes of pressors at the ready already drawn up that we give ourselves.

Etomidate is a dirty drug but unless you’re extremely proficient with propofol and willing to give a little tincture of time for a reduced dose to work then just use the etomidate. Or ketamine if you feel comfortable with it.

The OR is not the ED. There are areas of overlap but when you’re intubating a septic full stomach don’t get fancy with propofol if you’re not used to it in that scenario. Same goes when you’re intubating for airway protection. Use what your comfortable with. I’m not judging you.

Yep, very different beasts. Just didn't want to get stuck in the "this is what we always do" situation if there was a better, realistic for us option. I appreciate your input!
 
I am the “rare” (by SDN standards) person who uses etomidate with some amount of frequency. I really think it’s shortcomings are overestimated - especially the adrenal suppression, but also the PONV which is always mentioned but with good triple therapy I haven’t had anyone puking their guts out in PACU. It’s mostly the cardiac crowd I go to it with - think those that would do poorly with more vasodilation, like patient on 2 ionotropes and an IABP in the unit for an emergency EGD for a bleed. Or your septic prancreatitic on 2 high-dose vasopressors. I think there are a zillion ways to skin a cat with induction, but people around here are so dogmatic about stuff. Different strokes, folks! I do strongly believe my general approach is safe, as well as it is in others hands with other approaches.

ANYWAYS, I stand by earlier this isn’t the typical etomidate indication and propofol is the better choice here.

So let’s hear it @CodeBlu, what happened?
 
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There is a fair amount of evidence for IV lidocaine, and I think its use is not considered controversial. Some studies show no effect compared to placebo. No studies show harm, and the risk profile of 1.5 mg/kg IV lidocaine is low.
...

ED also loves to glidescope everyone.

I'd like to see the evidence for IV lidocaine in this scenario instead of dogma. Also, is there data showing DL over VL? In a meta-analysis of 64 studies and 7000 patients, primarily anesthesiologists in the OR, VL provided a NNT of 17 for 1 less failed intubation. I would welcome studies showing harm of VL over DL. This study didn't find it. Nearly 60 of the 64 studies came from anesthesia in the OR. Video Laryngoscopy vs. Direct Laryngoscopy. - PubMed - NCBI
 
Who gives AF about VL vs DL in this situation? Normal kid intubations are easy 99.99999% of the time no matter what you're using. The only reason I would even remotely care is because various pedi laryngoscope sizes may not be immediately available on the glidescope tower or in the airway cart, and depending on the size of the kid a glidescope 3 blade may be too big.
 
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Mind me asking what makes you guys stay away from etomidate? I've noticed you guys love propofol in general... I love propofol for procedural sedations and drips in vented patients but usually shy to induce with it (usually in the ED when intubating they are unstable and I'm hesitant to drop the BP). It seems you guys go for pressors pretty quick so maybe that's the difference? I also feel like it wears off so fast it is easy for them to be paralyze and not sedated in the ED setting (confirming the tube, getting drips setup, resuscitating, other procedures, etc). Just curious what you input is.


Etomidate wears off maybe slightly slower so based on that I think it's a wash. I also don't slug a syringe of propofol in an unstable patient. I always keep in mind that in many a unstable patient "a little goes a long way" (especially when they're old). If my little is "too little" then the stimulation of intubation will bring the pressure up and that's what more propofol is for. Most unstable patients don't really have enough cerebral perfusion pressure to actually know what's going on anyway so my 50 mg of propofol is just enough to take the edge off while the relaxant kicks in for intubation.

Also
-Etomidate hurts in an IV. Many say more than propofol.
-(Not that it matters in a tube patient) Get more nausea and vomiting with etomidate. Propofol is anti-emetic
-I can avoid the "theoretical" adrenal suppression from etomidate
-propofol is much nicer to titrate for smooth induction. this is nice for those old frail ladies who have dislocated a hip and needs some propofol for closed reduction

Also don't be afraid of pressors. They make them for a reason.
 
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Who gives AF about VL vs DL in this situation? Normal kid intubations are easy 99.99999% of the time no matter what you're using. The only reason I would even remotely care is because various pedi laryngoscope sizes may not be immediately available on the glidescope tower or in the airway cart, and depending on the size of the kid a glidescope 3 blade may be too big.
100............the moral to this scenario is get a breathing tube in in quick, hyperventilate him, and get him to an OR for some Burr holes.
 
I'd like to see the evidence for IV lidocaine in this scenario instead of dogma.

To frame a study to answer this question directly probably won't happen, ever. Not in America.
To repeat what I've said earlier: There are studies that support IV lidocaine as at least somewhat effective in decreasing ICP with intubation. There are some studies that say it doesn't change ICP. There are no studies that say it causes worsening of ICP. The risk profile of lidocaine is low. Does IV lidocaine administration to attempt to decrease ICP translate to changes in neurologic outcomes? Unclear. Its complicated with lots of moving parts, heterogenous population of patients, so would a study ever have enough power to tease out the effect? So do your risk/benefit analysis and make a decision. Not sure if this reasoning is considered "dogma".

Also, is there data showing DL over VL? In a meta-analysis of 64 studies and 7000 patients, primarily anesthesiologists in the OR, VL provided a NNT of 17 for 1 less failed intubation. I would welcome studies showing harm of VL over DL. This study didn't find it. Nearly 60 of the 64 studies came from anesthesia in the OR. Video Laryngoscopy vs. Direct Laryngoscopy. - PubMed - NCBI

Read my previous posts. Nobody said harm of VL over DL. Just that it is often unnecessary.
 
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Also don't be afraid of pressors. They make them for a reason.

From what I've seen, ED and non-anes CCM ppl just don't get a lot of experience with push-dose pressors. We use them so, so much that we really never realize that pushing 100 mcg of phenylephrine or 10 mcgs of norepi or epi actually gives pause to other resuscitationists. Almost all the meds they administer are by written or verbal order to a nurse who pushes the med, and much of the time from what I've seen in my ED, it's based on algorithm, not clinical picture (i.e. the ED will frequently calculate 0.2 mg/kg etomidate and 0.6 mg/kg sux and then draw up the exact amount). If a patient has profound hypotension in the resuscitation bay, they don't reach for a neo or ephedrine stick, they call out for the nurse to hang levophed and then start the drip at a relatively high rate.

I agree with one of the posters above- gentle, titrated propofol inductions in critically ill patients should be left to those who know how to pre-treat or immediately post-treat with push dose pressors. If you're not comfortable with this, use etomidate.
 
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I'd like to see the evidence for IV lidocaine in this scenario instead of dogma. Also, is there data showing DL over VL? In a meta-analysis of 64 studies and 7000 patients, primarily anesthesiologists in the OR, VL provided a NNT of 17 for 1 less failed intubation. I would welcome studies showing harm of VL over DL. This study didn't find it. Nearly 60 of the 64 studies came from anesthesia in the OR. Video Laryngoscopy vs. Direct Laryngoscopy. - PubMed - NCBI

What’s your background? IV lidocaine or sprayed on the cords can decrease the stimulation and resulting hypertensive response from laryngoscopy and intubation. There’s no reason not to give it, again, unless you don’t routinely intubate patients and/or aren’t comfortable giving/ordering peri-intubation drugs.

Why the debate over VL vs DL? Just be 100% sure you get the tube in first try w minimal stimulation in a very short period of time. I’m not being critical but in the anesthesia world this is a chip shot airway (otherwise healthy peds) and the intubation is the least of this poor kids problems.

If you’re ED and wanna go etomidate/succ/VL, fine. Go for it. Let’s get this kid to the OR yesterday for decompression or provide the necessary safe conditions so the surgeon can decompress in the ED.

Outcome please?
 
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What’s your background? IV lidocaine or sprayed on the cords can decrease the stimulation and resulting hypertensive response from laryngoscopy and intubation. There’s no reason not to give it, again, unless you don’t routinely intubate patients and/or aren’t comfortable giving/ordering peri-intubation drugs.
ED attending. I'd prefer to do things that work (ie, get on with intubation) then wait for for lidocaine to be found, drawn up (even with an ED pharmacist this is yet another thing that needs to get ready) unless it shows a clear benefit to morbidity or mortality.

Why the debate over VL vs DL? Just be 100% sure you get the tube in first try w minimal stimulation in a very short period of time. I’m not being critical but in the anesthesia world this is a chip shot airway (otherwise healthy peds) and the intubation is the least of this poor kids problems.
This is a chipshot for anyone who knows how to intubate and I don't interpret your comments as critical. There was a comment above about how "the ED will just glidescope anybody" as if that were something to be ashamed of. My point is similar to yours. Who cares? And as I've listed in the study above, maybe everyone should consider VL first.
 
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If this is the orals, be ready to defend that use of succinylcholine. As others have said it is debatable with respect to ICP but the debate is still very much there and this patient is showing signs of impending or active herniation. If I’m the examiner, I’m definitely asking “so to be clear, you are giving a mediciation that may increase ICP to someone with active herniation?” Or maybe “a colleague suggests taking another approach” - be ready to answer. Plus risk of undiagnosed myalgias, most peds anesthesiologists avoid Sux routinely. You can argue both sides of this argument but be prepared to defend the answer. BEWARE of saying “studies show” because you are opening yourself up to being asked more about it - which studies were they, what it a prospective or retrospective study, how many patients etc... Remember, most oral board examiners are academics and a few may be experts in that field - they can and will grill you on it. Personally I’m giving RSI Roc - you’ll need paralysis anyway and the patient is going to stay intubated after the case. Most important is securing the airway quickly before your ETCO2 creeps up - yes, that means you may even have to mask ventilate a bit. You’ll want an anesthesiologist or PICU person to do this ideally, but that person may not be readily available. Once secured, hyperventilate to ETCO2 30 or so.

For induction agent, I’m going with propofol. An induction dose causes near-if-not-actual burst suppression which decreased CMRO2, thereby helping treat the ICP. Etomidate doesn’t cause as profound a decrease in CMRO2.

Something this bad might merit an EVD or even burr hole in the ED. That’s up to the neurosurgeon and his or her comfort level doing such things on a child.

As others have said - mannitol, hypertonic saline. Avoid colloids like albumin, they have a worse morbidity/mortality risk in TBI. Place a Foley catheter, lasix to draw out all the extra cellular water you can while scans and what not are being obtained. Urgent to emergent operative intervention.

Side note for more oral boards stuff, the intraoperative stuff is fairly routine once started here, but postoperative management questions is where the “meat” can be in terms of difficulty. Know how to work up polyuria as well as treatment, longer term goals for TBI management as well. This is where books like Yao are good as a reference.

I've never avoided sux because of the risk of undiagnosed myopathies (was the word I hope you meant, not myalgias) and I don't think most peds people who've trained in the last 20 years have, either. That's like saying I avoid roc because of the risk of anaphylaxis. I avoid it because it's a ****ty drug and you usually don't need it (especially now with sugammadex), but if sux is the best drug, kids will get sux.

Agree that usually you don't see bradycardia unless you're giving repeat doses. I don't routinely pre-treat with atropine unless I'm giving it because the airway is going south, and even then it's mostly for hypoxia-induced bradycardia, not from sux.

Everything else on your post checks out.
 
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ED attending. I'd prefer to do things that work (ie, get on with intubation) then wait for for lidocaine to be found, drawn up (even with an ED pharmacist this is yet another thing that needs to get ready) unless it shows a clear benefit to morbidity or mortality.


This is a chipshot for anyone who knows how to intubate and I don't interpret your comments as critical. There was a comment above about how "the ED will just glidescope anybody" as if that were something to be ashamed of. My point is similar to yours. Who cares? And as I've listed in the study above, maybe everyone should consider VL first.


It’s definitely a workflow difference. Sometimes we in anesthesia take it for granted that we have everything immediately available to us in one drawer and wonder why everybody doesn’t do things the same way we do. We never need drugs to be found and drawn up. Heck I just mix everything (lidocaine/propofol/roc/+-pressor) in one syringe and give it all at once.

And I agree there’s nothing wrong with VL for everyone, ESPECIALLY if you’re better with VL than DL. Take your best shot first.
 
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Acute pediatric neurotrauma patients are common in my practice.

For this patient I don't think the induction meds are all that important - you just need to keep the hemodynamics stable, don't let the MAP fall (and don't boost it too high), don't allow for hypercarbia/hypoxia. Once airway is controlled you should hyperventilate and also give hypertonic. Mannitol is probably ok too but peds TBI guidelines currently recommend hypertonic.

Agreed - this kid then needs to get scanned then go to the OR ASAP.

Some peds TBI literature shows markedly worse outcomes when CPP drops below the mid 40s, even if it's one just episode (e.g. perhaps during induction, although induction specifically hasn't been studied). Therefore I'd suggest propofol is ok but do you absolute best to avoid any big drop in MAP/CPP.

As a side note, I find it interesting that we anesthesiologists think about these discrete encounters and how they impact patients. Induction and intubation are very dangerous times that we take seriously. Physiologic shifts and their effects during this time are poorly studied and under-appreciated. Non-anesthesiologists are less concerned with this time and I think this leads to high morbidity and mortality.

As a medicine intern I remember multiple patients dying when induced and intubated (/failed to be intubated) in the MICU. The explanation, if any was given, is that they were "really sick". Yet I've never had any patients die during induction when I was personally involved. And If a patient ever dies during an anesthesia controlled induction it's a rare big deal - M&M worthy.

Patients die too frequently during this time in ED and ICU inductions when in others' hands. And there are teeth broken. Airways injured. Needless trachs performed. I needn't preach to the choir, but anesthesiologists provide the best acute resuscitation and also provide the best resuscitation, induction, and intubation. Sadly nobody realizes this and this lack of knowledge creates huge unacknowledged morbidity and mortality.

If I ever need emergent intubation I pray it's an anesthesiologist intubating me.
 
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Was he in a c-collar? Where I work our neurotrauma patients are usually considered to have a C-spine injury until properly ruled out by both exam and imaging. With this kid with a GCS score under 10 you certainly aren’t going to get an adequate exam. If he was that would steer me towards a video laryngoscope to minimize extension of the neck and promote in line stabilization.
 
Acute pediatric neurotrauma patients are common in my practice.

For this patient I don't think the induction meds are all that important - you just need to keep the hemodynamics stable, don't let the MAP fall (and don't boost it too high), don't allow for hypercarbia/hypoxia. Once airway is controlled you should hyperventilate and also give hypertonic. Mannitol is probably ok too but peds TBI guidelines currently recommend hypertonic.

Agreed - this kid then needs to get scanned then go to the OR ASAP.

Some peds TBI literature shows markedly worse outcomes when CPP drops below the mid 40s, even if it's one just episode (e.g. perhaps during induction, although induction specifically hasn't been studied). Therefore I'd suggest propofol is ok but do you absolute best to avoid any big drop in MAP/CPP.

As a side note, I find it interesting that we anesthesiologists think about these discrete encounters and how they impact patients. Induction and intubation are very dangerous times that we take seriously. Physiologic shifts and their effects during this time are poorly studied and under-appreciated. Non-anesthesiologists are less concerned with this time and I think this leads to high morbidity and mortality.

As a medicine intern I remember multiple patients dying when induced and intubated (/failed to be intubated) in the MICU. The explanation, if any was given, is that they were "really sick". Yet I've never had any patients die during induction when I was personally involved. And If a patient ever dies during an anesthesia controlled induction it's a rare big deal - M&M worthy.

Patients die too frequently during this time in ED and ICU inductions when in others' hands. And there are teeth broken. Airways injured. Needless trachs performed. I needn't preach to the choir, but anesthesiologists provide the best acute resuscitation and also provide the best resuscitation, induction, and intubation. Sadly nobody realizes this and this lack of knowledge creates huge unacknowledged morbidity and mortality.

If I ever need emergent intubation I pray it's an anesthesiologist intubating me.

Excellent post. Totally agreed. I’ve heard the same thing regarding post intubation arrest as well as failed rescues from other cardiac arrest (he was “really sick”), when the intubation or rescue was really poorly managed. Airway management in sick patients is a complicated intervention and lots of doctors don’t get it
 
ED attending. I'd prefer to do things that work (ie, get on with intubation) then wait for for lidocaine to be found, drawn up (even with an ED pharmacist this is yet another thing that needs to get ready) unless it shows a clear benefit to morbidity or mortality.


This is a chipshot for anyone who knows how to intubate and I don't interpret your comments as critical. There was a comment above about how "the ED will just glidescope anybody" as if that were something to be ashamed of. My point is similar to yours. Who cares? And as I've listed in the study above, maybe everyone should consider VL first.

Its hard to know that your doing a bad job if all you see is other people doing a bad job..

Watch some anesthesia intubations, no scrambling for meds for 5 mins, no long periods of apnea, cricoid pressure when appropriate, bagging and masking that is actually effective, that kind of stuff. its easy to do wrong and not understand you are doing it wrong.

And the VL thing is not to be ashamed of, its just a marker of not being an expert. It often takes longer to get the stuff together for the Glidescope (especially for a kid) than to just do DL. But again, not something that you see as a problem because its always done this way in the ER, meanwhile the anesthesiologist is cringing and your thinking "god what an ahole" ..
 
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ED attending. I'd prefer to do things that work (ie, get on with intubation) then wait for for lidocaine to be found, drawn up (even with an ED pharmacist this is yet another thing that needs to get ready) unless it shows a clear benefit to morbidity or mortality.


This is a chipshot for anyone who knows how to intubate and I don't interpret your comments as critical. There was a comment above about how "the ED will just glidescope anybody" as if that were something to be ashamed of. My point is similar to yours. Who cares? And as I've listed in the study above, maybe everyone should consider VL first.

I'm curious. Do you think any of the cover your ass things you do in emergency medicine counts as "clear benefit"? And if your standard is to only do things that have been "shown to work", unequivocally, you will be deviating from the standard for most of clinical medicine
 
Its hard to know that your doing a bad job if all you see is other people doing a bad job..

Watch some anesthesia intubations, no scrambling for meds for 5 mins, no long periods of apnea, cricoid pressure when appropriate, bagging and masking that is actually effective, that kind of stuff. its easy to do wrong and not understand you are doing it wrong.

And the VL thing is not to be ashamed of, its just a marker of not being an expert. It often takes longer to get the stuff together for the Glidescope (especially for a kid) than to just do DL. But again, not something that you see as a problem because its always done this way in the ER, meanwhile the anesthesiologist is cringing and your thinking "god what an ahole" ..

1 - you make way too many assumptions about my quality of care, my practice during intubation and the practice of colleagues similar to me with whom I practice. You assume that I am inept even at recognizing when what I am doing is ineffective or dangerous. Someone in such a position should be not be allowed to intubate. I consider myself to be an expert in the emergency airway as I was trained to do so. Your assumption to the contrary is not based in fact. That means I recognize when what am I doing, or when others who are manipulating the airway are doing are ineffective or dangerous. I expect no less with anyone that I practice alongside.
2 - cricoid pressure is highly debatable (http://rebelem.com/cricoid-pressure-in-airway-management-the-iris-trial/) and that you think it's an example of me not knowing what I am doing makes me think, instead, that this part of your practice is based on myth and dogma. Agree to disagree but I certainly don't think using or not using cricoid pressure is the example you should choose to show EM's ineptitude at managing airways in the ED.
3-Re VL vs DL: No it doesn't - not significantly, and I cannot think of an occasion where an extra 10 seconds made any difference. It takes me literally a few seconds seconds to get glidescope stuff together. It takes virtually the same amount of time to open up the airway box, load a blade and open up an ETT. As pointed out above, your workflow and mine are not the same.
4 - I am plenty comfortable with DL. See my post above about the superiority of VL over DL (studies primarily taken from the OR where YOUR colleagues are performing the intubation)

I'm curious. Do you think any of the cover your ass things you do in emergency medicine counts as "clear benefit"? And if your standard is to only do things that have been "shown to work", unequivocally, you will be deviating from the standard for most of clinical medicine

My professional society does not recommend IV lidocaine for the massive head injury patient. If you want to use it, its fine there hasn't been any harm shown, but I certainly don't think there's enough data to show not to use it is deviation from care. I do the things that work and the things that are standard of care for now even if they probably don't (i.e. c-collar).
 
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Alright fellow gas passers... I've been rotating through pediatrics and I've had a wild time.

I've got a whole slew cases for you guys that I've found interesting and educational. Curious to hear your thoughts. Will start with this one though... as my first night on call, this blew my mind.

7 year old male, presents to ED via EMS for altered LOC. Was running around in gym class and got side swiped and hit head on wall pretty hard. Brief loss of consciousness. Regained consciousness and business as usual. Parents pick kid up with intent of coming to hospital to get looked at. They get stuck in traffic. Patient becomes increasingly lethargic and unresponsive. Parents call EMS. GCS 8 when they arrive. HR 70's, BP 120/90.

By the time kid arrives to the ED. They call a pediatric trauma code. Anesthesia shows up. The heart rate is not going from 38-45 bpm, and the BP is 146/100. Left pupil is blown. GCS is 6 now. ED decides they need to secure airway before CT scan. Their plan? Etomidate and succinylcholine, glidescope.

Thoughts?
Wow this was basically my exact case in my oral exam.
The case I had in the exam proceeded to lose IV access. That made things a bit worse on my anxiety level. But I passed somehow.
 
1 - you make way too many assumptions about my quality of care, my practice during intubation and the practice of colleagues similar to me with whom I practice. You assume that I am inept even at recognizing when what I am doing is ineffective or dangerous. Someone in such a position should be not be allowed to intubate. I consider myself to be an expert in the emergency airway as I was trained to do so. Your assumption to the contrary is not based in fact. That means I recognize when what am I doing, or when others who are manipulating the airway are doing are ineffective or dangerous. I expect no less with anyone that I practice alongside.
2 - cricoid pressure is highly debatable (http://rebelem.com/cricoid-pressure-in-airway-management-the-iris-trial/) and that you think it's an example of me not knowing what I am doing makes me think, instead, that this part of your practice is based on myth and dogma. Agree to disagree but I certainly don't think using or not using cricoid pressure is the example you should choose to show EM's ineptitude at managing airways in the ED.
3-Re VL vs DL: No it doesn't - not significantly, and I cannot think of an occasion where an extra 10 seconds made any difference. It takes me literally a few seconds seconds to get glidescope stuff together. It takes virtually the same amount of time to open up the airway box, load a blade and open up an ETT. As pointed out above, your workflow and mine are not the same.
4 - I am plenty comfortable with DL. See my post above about the superiority of VL over DL (studies primarily taken from the OR where YOUR colleagues are performing the intubation)



My professional society does not recommend IV lidocaine for the massive head injury patient. If you want to use it, its fine there hasn't been any harm shown, but I certainly don't think there's enough data to show not to use it is deviation from care. I do the things that work and the things that are standard of care for now even if they probably don't (i.e. c-collar).

Enough with the pissing contest between EM and Anesthesia. Both fields are being run by Nurses nowadays anyway. Can @CodeBlu just tell us what happened in this case?
 
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Hey guys,

Sorry I fell off the face of the planet for a bit. Was on call and then on call again...

We ended up taking over from ED.

Bolused 3% NS.

Atropine
Roc 1.2 mg/kg
Propofol 3 mg/kg
Fentanyl 3 mcg/kg

DL -> Tube -> Scan -> OR

Kid woke up 24 hours later in PICU and has now walked out of hospital. No doubt thanks to the excellent anesthetic management... LOL. The decompressive crani helped too... obviously.
 
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Hey guys,

Kid woke up 24 hours later in PICU and has now walked out of hospital. No doubt thanks to the excellent anesthetic management... LOL. The decompressive crani helped too... obviously.

You saved this kid's life and brain.

Although neurosurgical intervention was the ultimate definitive treatment you kept them safe and alive by protecting their airway, resuscitating them, facilitating emergent workup and a major surgery, maintaining CBF, and lowering ICP.

Great work. There's no substitute for a fine anesthesiologist such as yourself.
 
I hope the physicians realize how much sheer dumb luck contributed to the outcome.
 
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I hope the physicians realize how much sheer dumb luck contributed to the outcome.

Are you saying this generally, for anyone who has a significant medical emergency? Or specifically for this case?

Because I agree with the former (and as it applies generally to the latter). But if you're insinuating that the only reason the plan that was implemented was successful was luck, that seems a little harsh. Seemed pretty standard and in line with what most people would do.
 
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Are you saying this generally, for anyone who has a significant medical emergency? Or specifically for this case?

Because I agree with the former (and as it applies generally to the latter). But if you're insinuating that the only reason the plan that was implemented was successful was luck, that seems a little harsh. Seemed pretty standard and in line with what most people would do.
I am not trying to minimize anybody's merits here. I am just saying that, given the Cushing reflex, this kid was really lucky to survive without sequelae. Patients have bad outcomes even with the best care. He could have coded during intubation.

I am an intensivist, so I try not to fool myself that people have great outcomes because of me. Better lucky than good.
 
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I’m curious why not 24% for active brain code? No central line or not insitutional standard practice?
 
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24% not 23.4% ? Different formulations of hts? My institution persists peripheral administration of hts, although many do not.

I dont mind giving 3% (or norepi or vaso or amio etc) peripherally through a good IV for a short while but bolusing 23.4% peripherally through a 24-22g that some nurse jammed into a 7yo's thumb vein gives me the heebie jeebies
 
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We use 3%. I had some sitting on my cart just the other day for a tight head about to lose a nasty large purple invader. Didn’t need it, but the kid got some in the PICU a couple of times prior to coming to the OR. (5ml/kg boluses in case you were curious.).
 
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23.4% .... aka a bullet.

Agreed, needs to go through a reliable line over 10 mins. Nurses won’t push it.
 
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