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Penn State Accelerated Pathways: neurosurgery and orthopedic surgery

slowthai

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What I find interesting is that people always say "Don't decide on a specialty early", especially whenever the desired specialty is hyper-competitive like ortho or neurosurg, yet this institution is providing an early acceptance accelerated track for both fields. And it makes sense because these fields have the largest number of incoming students that did not waver from their original choice the entire 4 years of medical school (50% and 30%, respectively).
 
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Small Cell Carcinoma

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Did you say entering college? What the heck are you doing thinking about this right now. Get into a medical school first. If you are lucky enough to not only get into a school of your choice but also have the option of doing some accelerated program then cross that bridge when you get to it
 

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The 3-year NYU program is great because NYU is a really strong neurosurgery program. Penn State is not a great neurosurgery program, and I think you still have to do the 4 year MD, right? Plus the cost of not being able to shoot for better programs in the match.

It's similar to the BS/MD proposition. If you're a strong enough applicant to get into this guaranteed neurosurgery program, you're almost definitely strong enough to match at a better program in the regular match.
 
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confuzzled10

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The 3-year NYU program is great because NYU is a really strong neurosurgery program. Penn State is not a great neurosurgery program, and I think you still have to do the 4 year MD, right? Plus the cost of not being able to shoot for better programs in the match.

It's similar to the BS/MD proposition. If you're a strong enough applicant to get into this guaranteed neurosurgery program, you're almost definitely strong enough to match at a better program in the regular match.
Penn St is a 3 year program too. Neurosurgery is neurosurgery. Lots of people don't match. If you can take a guaranteed spot, you take it.
 
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I have heard about it, and I absolutely despise this. Medical students have no idea what specialty will be right for them until they are actually in medical school and on rotations. Getting accepted out of college to a residency program is a recipe for disaster, and negates everything we learn about “being a doctor first.” The stereotype about orthopedic surgeons not knowing any medicine is already bad enough… Now these a-holes are accepting people straight out of college without knowing how they’ll do as med students, let alone ortho residents. Ugh. I hate that the competitiveness of my specialty has driven this. The only “acceleration” it provides is how quickly students cease to care about anything that isn’t their tunnel-vision specialty.
 
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Kr#36

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I have heard about it, and I absolutely despise this. Medical students have no idea what specialty will be right for them until they are actually in medical school and on rotations. Getting accepted out of college to a residency program is a recipe for disaster, and negates everything we learn about “being a doctor first.” The stereotype about orthopedic surgeons not knowing any medicine is already bad enough… Now these a-holes are accepting people straight out of college without knowing how they’ll do as med students, let alone ortho residents. Ugh. I hate that the competitiveness of my specialty has driven this. The only “acceleration” it provides is how quickly students cease to care about anything that isn’t their tunnel-vision specialty.

Not to mention every single college kid interested in these programs who reads your post will think it doesn't apply to them and that there is no way they'll change their mind..
 
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NotAProgDirector

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How long have these programs been in existence? It will be interesting when the first students start in Ortho from the pathway -- if they end up underperforming on USMLE, clinically, or research then residencies might have second thoughts.

I also love how the Penn program offers a 1 year scholarship -- then at the end says that you only pay for 3 years of medical school. How nice of them to give you a scholarship for the year you're not actually a medical student.
 
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What makes you say that? Id imagine the volume per resident at penn state is probably better than at NYU.

I don't think that's true

Penn St is a 3 year program too. Neurosurgery is neurosurgery. Lots of people don't match. If you can take a guaranteed spot, you take it.

Also not true. Surgical training is different in that you need a lot of high quality exposure to surgical management. That means a strong balance of volume, complexity, and autonomy. Going to a residency program that offers these things means you will be well trained. If you lack any of them, you will not be prepared for true independent practice at the end. There are certainly surgical programs where one or multiple of these are lacking and you will end up not adequately trained by the end.
 
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longhaul3

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What makes you say that? Id imagine the volume per resident at penn state is probably better than at NYU.
It has a strong reputation, a bunch of faculty who are renowned for their clinical achievements or research or both, and it attracts a lot of top talent because it's in NYC. It also is well known for having pretty high volume. Penn State is less desirable for most people and doesn't have the same big names or cachet. I'm not sure what the volume is like, but volume isn't everything. There are a lot of places that people drool over that are known for having "low volume." You also need breadth, depth, and autonomy. There's a reason that most big-name programs are at huge referral centers.

Penn St is a 3 year program too. Neurosurgery is neurosurgery. Lots of people don't match. If you can take a guaranteed spot, you take it.
I see. Thank you for the correction. "Neurosurgery is neurosurgery" is not true though for most people. Because the field is so small, the training can be wildly different between programs and border on inadequate at some places. It's also an extremely political field where connections, pedigree, and prestige matter to a lot of people. I don't think it's wise to commit to a program that's not exceptional without giving yourself a chance to see what else is out there and where you could be competitive.
 
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7331poas

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There's a reason that most big-name programs are at huge referral centers.

I'm nowhere close to an insider or expert. But I would think that part of the reason they are "big name" is exactly because they are at huge referral centers.

I feel like there is at least a small argument for the Carolinas of the world versus MGH.
 
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sovereign0

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Penn State is not a great neurosurgery program

It also is well known for having pretty high volume. Penn State is less desirable for most people and doesn't have the same big names or cachet. I'm not sure what the volume is like, but volume isn't everything. There are a lot of places that people drool over that are known for having "low volume." You also need breadth, depth, and autonomy. There's a reason that most big-name programs are at huge referral centers.

I interviewed at Penn State and a pretty broad gamut of neurosurgery programs this year. The consensus among my peers was that it was a solid middle-third program, which I agree with. I was actually pretty impressed by the place and ranked it higher than I thought I was going to. I ended up matching higher on my list but would've been pretty happy there. A lot of what you've been saying makes me think you don't really know what you're talking about.

Volume is pretty freaking important. In fact I'd say it's the single most important factor in the strength of a program. There's a spectrum in neurosurgery between high volume operative centers and low volume academic centers, with a few programs being both high volume with lots of academic output - and these probably aren't the big names that you're thinking of. Different people want different things from their training. Not everyone is chasing after the biggest name anymore, this isn't pre-med. Yeah, people drool over low volume academic programs because they're either laypeople or want to be department chair someday. There's nothing wrong with those programs, they tend to be storied with big name faculty, but everyone knows most of them train great paper-pushers with connections, but comparably poor surgeons. Neither NYU nor Penn State fall into that basket, to be clear, but they are both actually pretty similar programs in terms of volume and are both huge referral centers.

In any case, I feel like these programs are a bad idea. How are you supposed to know you want to be a surgical subspecialist without the foundation of medical school and experience of clinical rotations to solidify that? This is probably a ploy by the medical school to attract applicants who would otherwise be going to top MD schools. The reality is that the opportunities afforded by pedigree outweigh a guaranteed spot. Going to a high-ranking medical school probably gives you nearly the same match outcome at worst (matching at any ortho or NSGY program), but with much more potential (matching at a better program in ortho or NSGY), and doesn't pigeonhole you into a specialty.
 
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longhaul3

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I'm nowhere close to an insider or expert. But I would think that part of the reason they are "big name" is exactly because they are at huge referral centers.

I feel like there is at least a small argument for the Carolinas of the world versus MGH.
There absolutely is (although Carolinas is an interesting one because they don't have any graduates yet). MGH is also not the powerhouse in neurosurgery that it is in most other specialties, except in research. Like the poster above said, people look for different things in their training programs. I had zero interest in research and therefore zero interest in MGH as an applicant.

As far as the big names, yes, the institutional name lends some prestige to any program. Super academic programs especially benefit from their institutions' resources, which is partly why MGH, Columbia, Stanford, etc. have their academic reputations. But my point was that, in my view, in order to have great neurosurgical training, you need both the breadth and depth of pathology that you can only find at a large referral center.

I interviewed at Penn State and a pretty broad gamut of neurosurgery programs this year. The consensus among my peers was that it was a solid middle-third program, which I agree with. I was actually pretty impressed by the place and ranked it higher than I thought I was going to. I ended up matching higher on my list but would've been pretty happy there. A lot of what you've been saying makes me think you don't really know what you're talking about.

Volume is pretty freaking important. In fact I'd say it's the single most important factor in the strength of a program. There's a spectrum in neurosurgery between high volume operative centers and low volume academic centers, with a few programs being both high volume with lots of academic output - and these probably aren't the big names that you're thinking of. Different people want different things from their training. Not everyone is chasing after the biggest name anymore, this isn't pre-med. Yeah, people drool over low volume academic programs because they're either laypeople or want to be department chair someday. There's nothing wrong with those programs, they tend to be storied with big name faculty, but everyone knows most of them train great paper-pushers with connections, but comparably poor surgeons. Neither NYU nor Penn State fall into that basket, to be clear, but they are both actually pretty similar programs in terms of volume and are both huge referral centers.

In any case, I feel like these programs are a bad idea. How are you supposed to know you want to be a surgical subspecialist without the foundation of medical school and experience of clinical rotations to solidify that? This is probably a ploy by the medical school to attract applicants who would otherwise be going to top MD schools. The reality is that the opportunities afforded by pedigree outweigh a guaranteed spot. Going to a high-ranking medical school probably gives you nearly the same match outcome at worst (matching at any ortho or NSGY program), but with much more potential (matching at a better program in ortho or NSGY), and doesn't pigeonhole you into a specialty.
I didn't apply to Penn State, so you obviously know more about the program than I do. When I said it's "not a great program" I meant just that, not that it's a bad program. I don't claim to be very familiar with it—my point is that I know it's not a great enough program that I would commit to it without going through the match (let alone before I even started med school).

I'm a resident at one of the highest-volume programs in the country. In fact I would guess that it's one of the programs you think I'm not thinking of. I agree that volume is important, but it's not everything. Volume without complexity or without autonomy is meaningless. In my opinion, volume beyond a certain level is sufficient, and after that point autonomy and complexity are more important. Assisting on your one-millionth subdural as a pgy-6 at 3am is not awesome. Many high-volume places also have the depth and autonomy, but the important things are that 1) not all do, and 2) there are places with low-mid volume that still offer enough complexity and autonomy to provide good training.

I love your last paragraph. Totally agree. You clearly laid out what I meant when I said it's like the BS/MD concept. These places know they can't compete for the top applicants in the normal pathway, so they offer peace of mind to the risk-averse. But the fact that someone can get into one of these programs almost implies that he/she will be a competitive applicant in the match. My whole point in this thread is what you said: "the reality is that the opportunities afforded by pedigree outweigh a guaranteed spot." In my opinion, the NYU pedigree is strong enough in neurosurgery that it could be worth it for some. The Penn State pedigree is not.

There's also the point to be made that as a pre-med or M1 it's impossible to truly know what makes a good program, what you want in a program, and how to evaluate it. There's no way I would have committed to my program as a pre-med (or even before I interviewed here), but it's a beast of a program and is perfect for me.
 
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confuzzled10

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This is an lol terrible idea and I can’t believe I’m just today learning that something so heinous exists
yeah...NYU, Penn State, and Stony Brook are the main schools that do this. I don't think it's a terrible idea. If mom and dad are doctors and you know what you want to do from the beginning, go for it. I'm sure the programs have good ways of screening out people who don't know what they really want to do. It's only guaranteed if the student keeps up with their studies and gets good grades. They can kick you out of the 3 year program at any point and put you back in the 4 year program....just as the student has the option of leaving the 3 year program and going back to the 4 year program if another specialty interests them. I know a girl doing Ortho at NYU who went through this process. I also know another girl doing Peds who went through the same thing at NYU and both of them say they don't regret it.
 
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yeah...NYU, Penn State, and Stony Brook are the main schools that do this. I don't think it's a terrible idea. If mom and dad are doctors and you know what you want to do from the beginning, go for it. I'm sure the programs have good ways of screening out people who don't know what they really want to do. It's only guaranteed if the student keeps up with their studies and gets good grades. They can kick you out of the 3 year program at any point and put you back in the 4 year program....just as the student has the option of leaving the 3 year program and going back to the 4 year program if another specialty interests them. I know a girl doing Ortho at NYU who went through this process. I also know another girl doing Peds who went through the same thing at NYU and both of them say they don't regret it.

It is not like the BSMD. Going into residency without being a medical student is like signing up to be the head chef at a 4 star restaurant without setting foot in the kitchen. No one knows exactly what specialty they “belong” in that early. The fact that most people who are ortho gunners in MS1 drop off speaks to that.
It’s also a way for the wrong markers to be used to select ortho residents. Your college grades have exactly zero to do with how good of an orthopedic surgeon you will be.
 
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confuzzled10

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It is not like the BSMD. Going into residency without being a medical student is like signing up to be the head chef at a 4 star restaurant without setting foot in the kitchen. No one knows exactly what specialty they “belong” in that early. The fact that most people who are ortho gunners in MS1 drop off speaks to that.
It’s also a way for the wrong markers to be used to select ortho residents. Your college grades have exactly zero to do with how good of an orthopedic surgeon you will be.
I agree with what you're saying, but they do have things in place to make sure the student is up to par. I think the student has to keep a certain GPA and also has to be involved in research with that department. There have been students who were pushed back to the 4 year program because their grades and Step scores didn't meet expectations. The student can also switch out and go back to the 4 year program if they want to do another specialty or try to match at another program. They get exposed to all the rotations just like the 4 year students. To me, if you think you know what specialty you want to do, and are sure that you want to stay in that city for 6+ years, I really don't see a downside. You get to save a year. If you end up liking another rotation, you can always back out of the 3 year program.

You bring up a good point on selection. How they choose these kids, I have no idea. I assume if the student has extensive research in that specialty before applying to medschool and the grades are stellar, the residency programs are willing to take a chance on these students. There's a person at NYU in the 3 year program who had I believe a Ph.D. or lots of research in derm related topics who was selected for that Derm residency spot. I think these students getting these spots are not just your average students. If they show that they can't keep up with the coursework, they get sent to the 4 year program.
 
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RJ McReady

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I have heard about it, and I absolutely despise this. Medical students have no idea what specialty will be right for them until they are actually in medical school and on rotations. Getting accepted out of college to a residency program is a recipe for disaster, and negates everything we learn about “being a doctor first.” The stereotype about orthopedic surgeons not knowing any medicine is already bad enough… Now these a-holes are accepting people straight out of college without knowing how they’ll do as med students, let alone ortho residents. Ugh. I hate that the competitiveness of my specialty has driven this. The only “acceleration” it provides is how quickly students cease to care about anything that isn’t their tunnel-vision specialty.

Doctor,
I respect your point of view and your argument, but there are those of us who know before we start medical school which specialty we are interested in. Orthopaedic surgery and neurosurgery are obviously two of the most competitive residencies to obtain. Many med students , especially those at mid or lower tier schools, already have to seek out research, mentors, clinical experiences as early as their first semester in order to be competitive. This in addition to acclimating your and doing the work of a first year medical student. Students in these programs still have to pass classes and board exams. Medical training in the US is already much more intense and time consuming compared to the rest of the world, and if someone knows what they want to pursue going in, they should have the opportunity to do so without facing the severe competition and cutthroat mentality that often arises among candidates for competitive specialties.
 
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If you think you know what specialty you want to do, and are sure that you want to stay in that city for 6+ years, I really don't see a downside.

the downside is the patients and colleagues who have to deal with yet another insufferable tunnel-vision person who skips the “become a good doctor” and goes directly to “become a specialist.” It’s inevitable to ignore the rest of med school and just do the bare minimum when you have a guaranteed specialty acceptable. I despise the “I wanted to do ortho since I was a zygote” type of person. It shows me they don’t have the creativity to even consider another specialty, and creativity is what makes a surgeon great. Doctors should have a broad knowledge and interest— if you don’t have an interest in every single specialty at least a little bit at the beginning, it’s a problem. otherwise, pretty soon we will have people going to be “surgeons of just the left leg.”
 
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RJ McReady

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the downside is the patients and colleagues who have to deal with yet another insufferable tunnel-vision person who skips the “become a good doctor” and goes directly to “become a specialist.” It’s inevitable to ignore the rest of med school and just do the bare minimum when you have a guaranteed specialty acceptable.

I think it’s a bit of a leap to assume that everyone who is interested in this type of program is an insufferable human being, and to assume that they will ignore med school and do minimal work. If anything, I would think that one would want to prove themselves worthy and capable of performing the specialty they have chosen.
 
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confuzzled10

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the downside is the patients and colleagues who have to deal with yet another insufferable tunnel-vision person who skips the “become a good doctor” and goes directly to “become a specialist.” It’s inevitable to ignore the rest of med school and just do the bare minimum when you have a guaranteed specialty acceptable. I despise the “I wanted to do ortho since I was a zygote” type of person. It shows me they don’t have the creativity to even consider another specialty, and creativity is what makes a surgeon great. Doctors should have a broad knowledge and interest— if you don’t have an interest in every single specialty at least a little bit at the beginning, it’s a problem. otherwise, pretty soon we will have people going to be “surgeons of just the left leg.”
I understand what you're saying, but to be perfectly honest, many kids are now coming in with tunnel vision....especially the ones who want to match into a competitive specialty. Unless the student goes to one of these schools that has 1 year of preclinic and a research year like Duke, Dell, and UCLA(new curriculum), there is no way he/she can rotate through all the specialties before making a decision and match in time. Most competitive specialties require research and if the student waits until after the 3rd year rotation to start research, that student won't match before the end of 4th year. Most likely that student will need an extra year to get the research requirements before applying. So if a student wants to match in a competitive specialty and graduate in 4 years, he/she already needs to have tunnel vision because he/she needs to start the research by the second year at the latest. Many medical schools don't start rotations until 3rd year. Now, if all medical schools switch their curriculum to how Duke and Dell have it set, I would agree that there would be no need for tunnel vision.
 
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7331poas

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the downside is the patients and colleagues who have to deal with yet another insufferable tunnel-vision person who skips the “become a good doctor” and goes directly to “become a specialist.” It’s inevitable to ignore the rest of med school and just do the bare minimum when you have a guaranteed specialty acceptable. I despise the “I wanted to do ortho since I was a zygote” type of person. It shows me they don’t have the creativity to even consider another specialty, and creativity is what makes a surgeon great. Doctors should have a broad knowledge and interest— if you don’t have an interest in every single specialty at least a little bit at the beginning, it’s a problem. otherwise, pretty soon we will have people going to be “surgeons of just the left leg.”

This is a ridiculous take. You already need 20 billion publications to match into neurosurgery. How do you expect an applicant to get into that field if they aren't tunnel visioning. Add in the fact that Step 1 is now P/F, the problem will be 5x worse than it is now.
 
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confuzzled10

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This is a ridiculous take. You already need 20 billion publications to match into neurosurgery. How do you expect an applicant to get into that field if they aren't tunnel visioning. Add in the fact that Step 1 is now P/F, the problem will be 5x worse than it is now.
unless all medicals schools switch the curriculum to include a research year after rotations, there will always be tunnel vision.
 

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Doctor,
I respect your point of view and your argument, but there are those of us who know before we start medical school which specialty we are interested in. Orthopaedic surgery and neurosurgery are obviously two of the most competitive residencies to obtain. Many med students , especially those at mid or lower tier schools, already have to seek out research, mentors, clinical experiences as early as their first semester in order to be competitive. This in addition to acclimating your and doing the work of a first year medical student. Students in these programs still have to pass classes and board exams. Medical training in the US is already much more intense and time consuming compared to the rest of the world, and if someone knows what they want to pursue going in, they should have the opportunity to do so without facing the severe competition and cutthroat mentality that often arises among candidates for competitive specialties.

Okay so as someone who "knew" what specialty they wanted to do since the age of 14 AND matched that specialty AND has now gone through at least some of that specialty's residency, with all due respect, you (the collective you) absolutely cannot know what specialty you want to do with this much certainty before starting medical school. And it's not because you (again collective) are dumb, or ignorant, or naive, it is because without being boots on the ground with the proper clinical and academic training to understand the actual everything involved in that specialty, you have no real idea what being an xyz doctor/surgeon is like. I don't care that you shadowed an orthopedic surgery attending for 200 hours as a sophomore in college, it doesn't give you anything near the level of exposure that a sub-I does, and if you look at the numbers, the attrition rate in surgical specialties is STILL 10-20% after selecting for people that have 1) done basic and advanced med school rotations in these specialties and 2) willingly self-selected into the match process, convincing people this is how they wanted to spend the rest of their life.

You can think you know what you want and take that leap of faith, but you're acting on dangerously incomplete information.
 
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RJ McReady

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Okay so as someone who "knew" what specialty they wanted to do since the age of 14 AND matched that specialty AND has now gone through at least some of that specialty's residency, with all due respect, you (the collective you) absolutely cannot know what specialty you want to do with this much certainty before starting medical school. And it's not because you (again collective) are dumb, or ignorant, or naive, it is because without being boots on the ground with the proper clinical and academic training to understand the actual everything involved in that specialty, you have no real idea what being an xyz doctor/surgeon is like. I don't care that you shadowed an orthopedic surgery attending for 200 hours as a sophomore in college, it doesn't give you anything near the level of exposure that a sub-I does, and if you look at the numbers, the attrition rate in surgical specialties is STILL 10-20% after selecting for people that have 1) done basic and advanced med school rotations in these specialties and 2) willingly self-selected into the match process, convincing people this is how they wanted to spend the rest of their life.

You can think you know what you want and take that leap of faith, but you're acting on dangerously incomplete information.

Yes, I can know and I do know what I want to do. Just because you say I can’t doesn’t make it true. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. That doesn’t mean I (one person, not “we” or “the collective”) need to listen to you or anyone else, because you don’t know what my or anyone else’s experiences are. These accelerated programs are there for a reason. I for one would not hesitate to take advantage of them, if given the opportunity. Why do I need to go through 6 different rotations to confirm what I already know?
 
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CyrusHabs7695

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Yes, I can know and I do know what I want to do. Just because you say I can’t doesn’t make it true. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. That doesn’t mean I (one person, not “we” or “the collective”) need to listen to you or anyone else, because you don’t know what my or anyone else’s experiences are. These accelerated programs are there for a reason. I for one would not hesitate to take advantage of them, if given the opportunity. Why do I need to go through 6 different rotations to confirm what I already know?

You are in for a rude awakening my friend if you have this mindset
 
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Damson

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Just read a little into this program - Orthopaedics 3+5 Accelerated MD Pathway - Penn State College of Medicine

Well. It isn't requiring students to commit to the program. The student during medical school has the ticket to a highly-competitive specialty as long as they pass the boards, without having to do any research. That's a really good deal. They can decide to pursue other specialties if they want. Whether or not the OP will be blinded to other potentially more fitting specialties because they hold this opportunity, is not for us on SDN to implicate.

Ortho is mega-competitive. If you can save yourself the trouble, take it and don't look back! But also keep an eye out for other specialties along the way. Not everyone needs to suffer to reach the top.
 
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confuzzled10

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Just read a little into this program - Orthopaedics 3+5 Accelerated MD Pathway - Penn State College of Medicine

Well. It isn't requiring students to commit to the program. The student during medical school has the ticket to a highly-competitive specialty as long as they pass the boards, without having to do any research. That's a really good deal. They can decide to pursue other specialties if they want. Whether or not the OP will be blinded to other potentially more fitting specialties because they hold this opportunity, is not for us on SDN to implicate.

Ortho is mega-competitive. If you can save yourself the trouble, take it and don't look back! But also keep an eye out for other specialties along the way. Not everyone needs to suffer to reach the top.
Honestly, to me, the only bad thing about that Penn State thing is that you have to live in Hershey for 8 years. I guess if you're married and have a family, it's not a bad deal.
 
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VincentAdultman

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Yes, I can know and I do know what I want to do. Just because you say I can’t doesn’t make it true. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. That doesn’t mean I (one person, not “we” or “the collective”) need to listen to you or anyone else, because you don’t know what my or anyone else’s experiences are. These accelerated programs are there for a reason. I for one would not hesitate to take advantage of them, if given the opportunity. Why do I need to go through 6 different rotations to confirm what I already know?

Classic SDN premed take. Love it.
 
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VincentAdultman

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Just read a little into this program - Orthopaedics 3+5 Accelerated MD Pathway - Penn State College of Medicine

Well. It isn't requiring students to commit to the program. The student during medical school has the ticket to a highly-competitive specialty as long as they pass the boards, without having to do any research. That's a really good deal. They can decide to pursue other specialties if they want. Whether or not the OP will be blinded to other potentially more fitting specialties because they hold this opportunity, is not for us on SDN to implicate.

Ortho is mega-competitive. If you can save yourself the trouble, take it and don't look back! But also keep an eye out for other specialties along the way. Not everyone needs to suffer to reach the top.

What if I change my mind and no longer want to pursue orthopaedics nor accelerate my training?

You would revert back to the traditional four-year pathway and enter the match as usual. Any scholarship granted will convert to a loan. Credits for partial courses may not carry over to the four-year pathway. For this reason, it’s important that you are certain about pursuing a career in orthopaedics before you apply to the pathway.

BTW I’m not sure “Pass the boards and I’m good” is accurate as the website mentions “failure to progress as expected” as a reason to rescind residency acceptance. That could mean a number of things. Regardless it’s a pretty shtty attitude that I wouldn’t want in a co-resident or colleague.
 
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7331poas

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Classic SDN premed take. Love it.

Not really, plenty of Americans hate their jobs. At least in medicine you can hate your job and make 300k a year. The difference between wrongly choosing ortho over gen surg is much less drastic than entering college and majoring in comp sci when your "destiny" was actually accounting.
 

VincentAdultman

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Not really, plenty of Americans hate their jobs. At least in medicine you can hate your job and make 300k a year. The difference between wrongly choosing ortho over gen surg is much less drastic than entering college and majoring in comp sci when your "destiny" was actually accounting.

k
 
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I think it’s a bit of a leap to assume that everyone who is interested in this type of program is an insufferable human being, and to assume that they will ignore med school and do minimal work. If anything, I would think that one would want to prove themselves worthy and capable of performing the specialty they have chosen.

and they can do that in med school. Where they are supposed to do it.
 
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I understand what you're saying, but to be perfectly honest, many kids are now coming in with tunnel vision....especially the ones who want to match into a competitive specialty. Unless the student goes to one of these schools that has 1 year of preclinic and a research year like Duke, Dell, and UCLA(new curriculum), there is no way he/she can rotate through all the specialties before making a decision and match in time. Most competitive specialties require research and if the student waits until after the 3rd year rotation to start research, that student won't match before the end of 4th year. Most likely that student will need an extra year to get the research requirements before applying. So if a student wants to match in a competitive specialty and graduate in 4 years, he/she already needs to have tunnel vision because he/she needs to start the research by the second year at the latest. Many medical schools don't start rotations until 3rd year. Now, if all medical schools switch their curriculum to how Duke and Dell have it set, I would agree that there would be no need for tunnel vision.

And that’s why I said how much I hate that my specialty is forcing kids to have tunnel vision just to match. It’s wrong, but catering to the tunnel vision is not the solution.
 
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This is a ridiculous take. You already need 20 billion publications to match into neurosurgery. How do you expect an applicant to get into that field if they aren't tunnel visioning. Add in the fact that Step 1 is now P/F, the problem will be 5x worse than it is now.

Lol, a “ridiculous take” from an actual ortho attending who understands the end stage of this in clinical reality and what kind of “doctors” it will produce.
29 publications has exactly zero to do with being a good surgeon— and we should try other ways to determine who will be the successful applicant than actually catering to the tunnel vision and making it worse.
 
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RJ McReady

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As an actual ortho surgeon I can tell you that having 29 publications has exactly zero to do with being a good surgeon— and we should try other ways to determine applications than actually catering to the tunnel vision that’s prevalent these days.

I agree completely with this, but the reality these days is that step scores, AOA, and research/pubs are used to evaluate applicants in competitive specialties, so students have no choice but to play the game.
 

7331poas

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Lol, a “ridiculous take” from an actual ortho attending who understands the end stage of this in clinical reality and what kind of “doctors” it will produce.
29 publications has exactly zero to do with being a good surgeon— and we should try other ways to determine who will be the successful applicant than actually catering to the tunnel vision and making it worse.

So without step 1 or step 2, and no research output, what factors would you use to decide who is worthy of an ortho residency?

Clerkship grades? Letters?
 
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RJ McReady

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we should try other ways to determine who will be the successful applicant than actually catering to the tunnel vision and making
I would argue that what you are saying is exactly what these accelerated programs are attempting to do-take away the gunner mentality and cutthroat competitiveness which is unfortunately exhibited by some of those students who desire to match into a competitive residency and allow students to focus on learning to be a well rounded doctor, which is what medical school should be about.
 
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So without step 1 or step 2, and no research output, what factors would you use to decide who is worthy of an ortho residency?

Clerkship grades? Letters?

Yes and yes, and rotations. There are also other ways that are in the works such as “compatibility testing” with the program’s personality
 
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