Penn vs Ecu

[predent2151]

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Hey guys, I’m reaching out to the sdn community for some guidance. I was just accepted yesterday to both UPENN and ECU. I received scholarships at both that would bring the tuition of ECU down to about 150K for all four years and UPENN down to about 350K. Both schools I thoroughly like however I’m facing a tough decision. I would be very happy to serve ECUs mission in rural areas of nc but part of me really wants the opportunity to specialize in either OMFS or ortho. Since ECU is pass/fail and doesn’t have departments in those specialities I figured matching would be an uphill battle where is at penn it is a very real possiblity. I’m torn between the two and looking for some advice. Very blessed to be in this position though.

Thanks!

 

[ncide]

OMFS and ortho are completely different fields, so it's interesting that you are contemplating both.

Pass/Fail doesn't necessarily preclude you from specialization, especially with regards to OMFS since one of the major barriers to entry is the CBSE. My buddy goes to UCLA and it's pass/fail there and recently matched at a (prosth) residency at Harvard. Some people will argue to go to the school with the most opportunities for matching, and UPenn tends to be good, but I'd argue to go to the least expensive school. If you are driven, you will create your own opportunities to specialize regardless of your location, and the savings you've made will be better spent in a practice to get you on the road to financial independence.

Do the costs only include tuition, or does it also include cost of living?

 

[predent2151]

OMFS and ortho are completely different fields, so it's interesting that you are contemplating both.

Pass/Fail doesn't necessarily preclude you from specialization, especially with regards to OMFS since one of the major barriers to entry is the CBSE. My buddy goes to UCLA and it's pass/fail there and recently matched at a (prosth) residency at Harvard. Some people will argue to go to the school with the most opportunities for matching, and UPenn tends to be good, but I'd argue to go to the least expensive school. If you are driven, you will create your own opportunities to specialize regardless of your location, and the savings you've made will be better spent in a practice to get you on the road to financial independence.

Do the costs only include tuition, or does it also include cost of living?

Those costs include everything. My thought process is that ECU is a fairly new school that hasn’t had the opportunity to produce residents in those fields. But I do agree that the school isn’t the only thing that would define you. Ecu does offer a program that will foster great clinicians which would be beneficial. I feel like with good research externships and academics it would be a possibility. This is just tough.

 

[Roy Williams]

Hey guys, I’m reaching out to the sdn community for some guidance. I was just accepted yesterday to both UPENN and ECU. I received scholarships at both that would bring the tuition of ECU down to about 150K for all four years and UPENN down to about 350K. Both schools I thoroughly like however I’m facing a tough decision. I would be very happy to serve ECUs mission in rural areas of nc but part of me really wants the opportunity to specialize in either OMFS or ortho. Since ECU is pass/fail and doesn’t have departments in those specialities I figured matching would be an uphill battle where is at penn it is a very real possiblity. I’m torn between the two and looking for some advice. Very blessed to be in this position though.

Thanks!

ECU is not truly P/F. They don't have letter grades, but all exams are scored and you are still ranked.

 

[predent2151]

ECU is not truly P/F. They don't have letter grades, but all exams are scored and you are still ranked.

If they have rankings and score exams then what is the true advantage of being pass/fail?

 

[Roy Williams]

If they have rankings and score exams then what is the true advantage of being pass/fail?

Maybe it makes them sound more appealing? Idk. But it's not truly pass/fail like ucsf is. They don't have as many resources if you want to specialize. That being said, given the price difference, id only go to penn if you are 100% sure you want to specialize. If you go there and don't end up specializing it'll be a huge waste of money. No matter what people say on here, it would be easier to specialize from penn than from ecu.

 

[PackPirate]

Hey guys, I’m reaching out to the sdn community for some guidance. I was just accepted yesterday to both UPENN and ECU. I received scholarships at both that would bring the tuition of ECU down to about 150K for all four years and UPENN down to about 350K. Both schools I thoroughly like however I’m facing a tough decision. I would be very happy to serve ECUs mission in rural areas of nc but part of me really wants the opportunity to specialize in either OMFS or ortho. Since ECU is pass/fail and doesn’t have departments in those specialities I figured matching would be an uphill battle where is at penn it is a very real possiblity. I’m torn between the two and looking for some advice. Very blessed to be in this position though.

Thanks!

Current ECU student here, the school has placed students each year into OMS, last year a guy matched at yale. This year already has a prosth and perio match. It's not truly pass fail, there is a huge spreadsheet that collects every point you get, basically for breathing. Unfortunately the rank in the class doesn't actually relate to your dental skills. I honestly don't think you are facing a tough decision. If you pick the school that is 200k more then you have made the wrong decision. Plus with a smaller class size at ecu you have less competition for rank.

 

[Roy Williams]

Current ECU student here, the school has placed students each year into OMS, last year a guy matched at yale. This year already has a prosth and perio match. It's not truly pass fail, there is a huge spreadsheet that collects every point you get, basically for breathing. Unfortunately the rank in the class doesn't actually relate to your dental skills. I honestly don't think you are facing a tough decision. If you pick the school that is 200k more then you have made the wrong decision. Plus with a smaller class size at ecu you have less competition for rank.

True, but there are others in his class that also applied to OMFS that did not match. Most everyone that applied at Penn matched. I agree though that ECU is the better choice given cost (unless he knows he's 100% sure he wants to do OMFS). There are just more resources and things like that at Penn plus ECU's curriculum does not prepare you for the CBSE near as well as Penn. I put a lot of research into this question when I was trying to decide between Penn and ECU (and ultimately would have chosen ECU had I not gotten into UNC).

 

[PackPirate]

True, but there are others in his class that also applied to OMFS that did not match. Most everyone that applied at Penn matched. I agree though that ECU is the better choice given cost (unless he knows he's 100% sure he wants to do OMFS). There are just more resources and things like that at Penn plus ECU's curriculum does not prepare you for the CBSE near as well as Penn. I put a lot of research into this question when I was trying to decide between Penn and ECU (and ultimately would have chosen ECU had I not gotten into UNC).

What are your statistics on most everyone? How many people at ECU tried to match OMS and didn't?

 

[Roy Williams]

What are your statistics on most everyone? How many people at ECU tried to match OMS and didn't?

When I interviewed at Penn they quoted that 16/16 matched into OMFS from the most recent year. According to CJ (guy that matched at Yale), "other people applied to OMS, only I matched".

 

[WolfPackSigeEp]

What are your statistics on most everyone? How many people at ECU tried to match OMS and didn't?

What I can tell you is this, if you want to specialize at ECU you have a great chance at matching if you've put in the effort. Our departments are small, but every professor knows your name and that provides a great opportunity to get letters of recommendation.

As PackPirate Mentioned we have students match every year. These are just a few people that I know personally-
Ortho- Nova, UNLV, Seton Hill, Columbia
Prosth- UofL, Ohio State, UNC, UCSF
OMFS- Yale, UIC, MUSC
Pedo- ECU, VCU, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia
Endo- WVU

We've graduated 3 classes and these are just a few people that I know of. At ECU you can specialize in what ever you'd like if you put your heart into it.

 

[Roy Williams]

What I can tell you is this, if you want to specialize at ECU you have a great chance at matching if you've put in the effort. Our departments are small, but every professor knows your name and that provides a great opportunity to get letters of recommendation.

As PackPirate Mentioned we have students match every year. These are just a few people that I know personally-
Ortho- Nova, UNLV, Seton Hill, Columbia
Prosth- UofL, Ohio State, UNC, UCSF
OMFS- Yale, UIC,
Pedo- ECU, VCU, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia
Endo- WVU

We've graduated 3 classes and these are just a few people that I know of. At ECU you can specialize in what ever you'd like if you put in the effort.

Totally agree. Wasn't trying to say it was impossible in the least.

 

[predent2151]

Tough decision at this point. Have you applied to any other schools that have ortho and omfs departments? While not impossible, I have been told time after time that your school having specialty departments is invaluable. Amongst many benefits, you can shadow in clinic and you can get to know your predoc and post doc chairs.

Yeah I still haven’t heard back from UNC, Columbia, VCU, DCG. Had interviews at all of them. However ECU and UPENN were in my top few along with UNC. I looked a ton online to find match data or something to get numbers. I really do feel as though I’d enjoy both schools. I’m basing my interest on both OMFS and Ortho on about 50 hours of shadowing each so i know things can change. I really do feel a passion for helping those in NC so even if I were to specialize, NC is home and that’s where I want to practice. Really appreciate all the advice. My big concern was just if there was a chance or not at specializing so it’s nice to know that’s definitely possible. I’m going to attend the 2nd look in a few weeks at ECU and put a deposit down at one of the schools after that. I really liked UPENN but paying an extra 200K minimum... I just don’t know if I can rationalize that.

 

[wengerout]

I wouldn’t go to UPEN if your end goal is to do Ortho.

For OMFS it’s a toss up, sure they don’t rank past 11 but they also don’t do a medical school curriculum which I think is a biggie when it comes to preparation for the CBSE and OMFS in general.


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[ModifiedBass]

I wouldn’t go to UPEN if your end goal is to do Ortho.

Curious why you believe this?

 

[predent2151]

I feel that with enough preparation I could do well on the CBSE no matter which school I go to.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

What I can tell you is this, if you want to specialize at ECU you have a great chance at matching if you've put in the effort. Our departments are small, but every professor knows your name and that provides a great opportunity to get letters of recommendation.

As PackPirate Mentioned we have students match every year. These are just a few people that I know personally-
Ortho- Nova, UNLV, Seton Hill, Columbia
Prosth- UofL, Ohio State, UNC, UCSF
OMFS- Yale, UIC, MUSC
Pedo- ECU, VCU, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia
Endo- WVU

We've graduated 3 classes and these are just a few people that I know of. At ECU you can specialize in what ever you'd like if you put your heart into it.

Lies! Lies! Lies! Everyone knows you can’t specialize if you didn’t go to Harvard, Columbia, or UPenn. Stop spreading false hope.

Big Hoss

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Go to ECU.

 

[predent2151]

So everyone is in agreement specializing is a possibility at ECU with hard work?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

So everyone is in agreement specializing is a possibility at ECU with hard work?

You’ll have to work hard wherever you go. I’m not too sure where the idea of coasting into residency by attending an Ivy came from. It’s ridiculous and needs to be killed. But, but, but, look at the number of specialists they generate. Well, look at the proportion of the class that applies. I went to a state school where less than 5% applied to OMFS. I’d wager close to 25% of Columbia’s class applies. But, but, but, what about Match rates? Well, every single person that applied for specialty training in my class Matched, except one who decided to apply to OMFS just 6 months prior to sending in his applications so he was a weak candidate.

These “elite” schools are simply full of gunners. Gunners tend to specialize. Here’s the catch, you can be a gunner at any school! Might as well be a gunner at a modest state school and save a quarter of a million dollars. That’s a ton of money! Well, not a ton. I just looked it up and $1,000,000 in dollar bills weighs 1.1 tons. So, you’d save around 500 lbs of dollar bills.

Big Hoss

 

[predent2151]

You’ll have to work hard wherever you go. I’m not too sure where the idea of coasting into residency by attending an Ivy came from. It’s ridiculous and needs to be killed. But, but, but, look at the number of specialists they generate. Well, look at the proportion of the class that applies. I went to a state school where less than 5% applied to OMFS. I’d wager close to 25% of Columbia’s class applies. But, but, but, what about Match rates? Well, every single person that applied for specialty training in my class Matched, except one who decided to apply to OMFS just 6 months prior to sending in his applications so he was a weak candidate.

These “elite” schools are simply full of gunners. Gunners tend to specialize. Here’s the catch, you can be a gunner at any school! Might as well be a gunner at a modest state school and save a quarter of a million dollars. That’s a ton of money! Well, not a ton. I just looked it up and $1,000,000 in dollar bills weighs 1.1 tons. So, you’d save around 500 lbs of dollar bills.

Big Hoss

You right you right. Is there a centralized location to find different speciality match rates for each dental school?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

You right you right. Is there a centralized location to find different speciality match rates for each dental school?

Not that I’m aware of.

Big Hoss

 

[Medin2017]

You’ll have to work hard wherever you go. I’m not too sure where the idea of coasting into residency by attending an Ivy came from. It’s ridiculous and needs to be killed. But, but, but, look at the number of specialists they generate. Well, look at the proportion of the class that applies. I went to a state school where less than 5% applied to OMFS. I’d wager close to 25% of Columbia’s class applies. But, but, but, what about Match rates? Well, every single person that applied for specialty training in my class Matched, except one who decided to apply to OMFS just 6 months prior to sending in his applications so he was a weak candidate.

These “elite” schools are simply full of gunners. Gunners tend to specialize. Here’s the catch, you can be a gunner at any school! Might as well be a gunner at a modest state school and save a quarter of a million dollars. That’s a ton of money! Well, not a ton. I just looked it up and $1,000,000 in dollar bills weighs 1.1 tons. So, you’d save around 500 lbs of dollar bills.

Big Hoss

Because you're learning a curriculum catered to one of the standardized tests one of the specialties take. What's easier, majoring in history/engineering/insert irrelevant course here and self studying for the DAT while doing so and trying to maintain grades, or taking a prehealth curriculum where it's p/f AND you take all the prereqs for the DAT? No brainer here. Yes you work hard but you get more out of your work (if you only have OMFS in mind of course). And gunner variable doesn't matter when there's no rank, so if you're scared of gunners don't go to a state school

COA is personal but let's not downplay the advantages. Those "gunners" may not beat out the gunners in a state school, sorry to say. Because you yourself say that the "smart kids" choose the cheaper school and still specialize.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Because you're learning a curriculum catered to one of the standardized tests one of the specialties take. What's easier, majoring in history/engineering/insert irrelevant course here and self studying for the DAT while doing so and trying to maintain grades, or taking a prehealth curriculum where it's p/f AND you take all the prereqs for the DAT? No brainer here. Yes you work hard but you get more out of your work (if you only have OMFS in mind of course). And gunner variable doesn't matter when there's no rank, so if you're scared of gunners don't go to a state school

COA is personal but let's not downplay the advantages. Those "gunners" may not beat out the gunners in a state school, sorry to say. Because you yourself say that the "smart kids" choose the cheaper school and still specialize.

Many P/F schools still maintain internal rankings and your performance relative to your peers may be mentioned in your Dean’s Letter when you apply. Schools don’t tell you this. I will admit med curriculum schools have a slight leg up on the CBSE, but that’s it. Is that worth $250,000? I don’t think so.

Big Hoss

 

[Medin2017]

Many P/F schools still maintain internal rankings and your performance relative to your peers may be mentioned in your Dean’s Letter when you apply. Schools don’t tell you this. I will admit med curriculum schools have a slight leg up on the CBSE, but that’s it. Is that worth $250,000? I don’t think so.

Big Hoss

True I do know of them doing that. However, 16/16 for penn means there's bound to be kids out of the top 20-30 (unless we rule out all high achieving perios, prosths, endos, orthos, and ped applicants). Not to mention, penns average DAT is a 21 and gpa of 3.66, a far cry from what you would expect of a class of gunners and high achievers. Breaking the top 40 in there seems way easier than breaking the top 10 in a state school with an average DAT of 20-21 and gpa of 3.6-3.7.

Now if it's worth an extra 250k, this is for someone who is not a high achiever who isn't confident in their abilities to think about. Because if they happen to be outside of the top 20 in a state school (which is more likely than not), they will probably be questioning that decision every so often. And with no boost in CBSE with the lack of med curriculum, fat chance this same individual is going to get the CBSE to offset that balance. Go cheap as you can if you think you have what it takes, but don't be regret it if you end up at a state school outside of a rank that's competitive for any specialty out there.

 

[predent2151]

Being top 20 or even top 30 still does not eliminate you for OMFS at a state school. It all comes down to the individual and their application.

Let’s keep in mind the school were talking about only has 53 students. I would imagine class rank in a class size this small would be highly dependent on that individual class. So being top 10 would be “easier” but being top 10 percent would definitely be a challenge as I’m sure it would be anywhere.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

True I do know of them doing that. However, 16/16 for penn means there's bound to be kids out of the top 20-30 (unless we rule out all high achieving perios, prosths, endos, orthos, and ped applicants). Not to mention, penns average DAT is a 21 and gpa of 3.66, a far cry from what you would expect of a class of gunners and high achievers. Breaking the top 40 in there seems way easier than breaking the top 10 in a state school with an average DAT of 20-21 and gpa of 3.6-3.7.

Now if it's worth an extra 250k, this is for someone who is not a high achiever who isn't confident in their abilities to think about. Because if they happen to be outside of the top 20 in a state school (which is more likely than not), they will probably be questioning that decision every so often. And with no boost in CBSE with the lack of med curriculum, fat chance this same individual is going to get the CBSE to offset that balance. Go cheap as you can if you think you have what it takes, but don't be regret it if you end up at a state school outside of a rank that's competitive for any specialty out there.

What happens if you’re one of the hoards of predents dead set on OMFS or ortho before you’ve even set foot into dental school and you later find you absolutely hate extracting bony thirds (just like I do) or you find orthodontics actually to be quite boring (quite the opposite of me)? So, you then decide to stick with GP. That unnecessary $250,000 in student loans will cause plenty of regret. There’s lots of uncertainty here. But what is an absolute is that student loans suck. Avoid them like the plague.

Big Hoss

 

[predent2151]

What happens if you’re one of the hoards of predents dead set on OMFS or ortho before you’ve even set foot into dental school and you later find you absolutely hate extracting bony thirds (just like I do) or you find orthodontics actually to be quite boring (quite the opposite of me)? So, you then decide to stick with GP. That unnecessary $250,000 in student loans will cause plenty of regret. There’s lots of uncertainty here. But what is an absolute is that student loans suck. Avoid them like the plague.

Big Hoss

I completely agree with you I’m not dead set on anything. The original question was to gauge if specializing out of ecu was even a possibility. I see that it definitely is now. But you’re right I’m basing what I like off of shadowing, actually doing it I’m sure will be completely different.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Columbia Dental Grad + Harvard medical grad. fancy degrees but if you saw how much interest I accrue on my loans monthly you'd have diarrhea for a month at minimum. Go to the cheapest school. Don't second guess "well gee I what if I went to Columbia or Penn or one of those fancy Ivy leagues to help me specialize??" because there are smart kids at ivy/non-ivy and just as many if not more tools at ivy league schools.

Not worth IMO. Cheapest dental school = less loans = less interest = less diarrhea = more money to spend on non-underwear related expenses

Here’s what someone smarter than me has to say on the matter.

Big Hoss

 

[predent2151]

Here’s what someone smarter than me has to say on the matter.

Big Hoss

Yeah not swimming in debt, or diarrhea for that matter sounds ideal.

 

[Medin2017]

Fair point. My school has matched people in the top 20-30 range and our class size is 80. The point is, you don't have to be top 10 to get into omfs and you certainly don't need to spend an extra 150K

Yes, but it doesn't hurt to be in the top 10 that's for sure. Plus it only opens options (choosing where you want to go). However I will say that going in spite of the price is still a personal decision.

What happens if you’re one of the hoards of predents dead set on OMFS or ortho before you’ve even set foot into dental school and you later find you absolutely hate extracting bony thirds (just like I do) or you find orthodontics actually to be quite boring (quite the opposite of me)? So, you then decide to stick with GP. That unnecessary $250,000 in student loans will cause plenty of regret. There’s lots of uncertainty here. But what is an absolute is that student loans suck. Avoid them like the plague.

Big Hoss

Yea I agree. I'm finding I am not as 100% interested in the artistic things as I once thought, but we will see if I like anything else.

 

[Likkriue]

I would go to ECU, 4 years goes by fast. I know I've only been in dental school 1/3 of a year but it's going by fast.

What doesn't go fast is 200k pre interest.

 

[Flynt]

Same situation as you OP, scholarship at ECU and want to do ortho. I’m taking my chances matching from here, personally I can’t see trying to rationalize 350k debt then adding residency debt on top of it. Just gonna “gun it” I guess. Just know if you come to ECU you already got some competition lol. Seriously though bro goodluck with whatever you choose.

 

[DocMon16]

Another ECU Student here...just my .02 but there were only two people to apply to OMFS in the graduating class last year (I believe thats right to my knowledge) and the one did match to Yale while the other chose to apply to OMS really late ( I think in his 4th year he decided to apply) so he did not match but he did get into an OMFS Internship. Applying and getting into specialty programs while attending ECU is very very achievable like my other classmates have mentioned. Its very possible at any state school. You do have to put in the work here but we have great professors that are both general practitioners and specialists. We create very good relationships here with our professors because of the small class size. Granted, I did not get into any Ivy league schools, but there is no way I would spend an additional 200k dollars on school. That amount is insane. I am with PackPirate and WolfpackSigEP with what they said about our school and that your decision is really not that tough...IMO. Unless you are dead set on an ivy league...ECU is a great dental school and our training here is fantastic.

 

[schmoob]

I've noticed a number of posts from a few people in the last few days that have been bothering me. It wasn't the usual "Ivy schools are superior" argument that's been on this site for years, instead it's been "Non-Ivy students are inferior." I don't like that. I'd like to point out that I'm not saying this as a moderator, but as a member of this community.
It's ironic that some of these people are labeling non-Ivy students as low achievers or having poor work ethic, yet simultaneously bragging about a P/F curriculum and how they don't have to work as hard because there are no grades or ranking. Choosing to pay more money to work less doesn't really support that argument.

What happens if you’re one of the hoards of predents dead set on OMFS or ortho before you’ve even set foot into dental school and you later find you absolutely hate extracting bony thirds (just like I do) or you find orthodontics actually to be quite boring (quite the opposite of me)? So, you then decide to stick with GP. That unnecessary $250,000 in student loans will cause plenty of regret. There’s lots of uncertainty here. But what is an absolute is that student loans suck. Avoid them like the plague.

Big Hoss

YES!

Columbia Dental Grad + Harvard medical grad. fancy degrees but if you saw how much interest I accrue on my loans monthly you'd have diarrhea for a month at minimum. Go to the cheapest school. Don't second guess "well gee I what if I went to Columbia or Penn or one of those fancy Ivy leagues to help me specialize??" because there are smart kids at ivy/non-ivy and just as many if not more tools at ivy league schools.

Not worth IMO. Cheapest dental school = less loans = less interest = less diarrhea = more money to spend on non-underwear related expenses

I think everyone who has ever been in the Ivy-to-specialize argument needs to read this post. It doesn't get much clearer than this.

Here’s what someone smarter than me has to say on the matter.

Big Hoss

I saw that post the other day and quoted it before I read this. There's obviously no going back once I've done that.

 

[wengerout]

Curious why you believe this?

I don't think it's worth it when Ortho itself will cost another 100-200k in tuition.

 

[blablabla1]

Put the deposit down for ECU and cross your fingers you get into UNC

 

[P7898]

Hey man, going to ECU in the fall. Really I would say it comes down to where you feel the most comfortable and where you can succeed. Everything else is just gravy when you look the rest of your professional career (how much it costs, connections, name recognition etc). For me, that was ECU.

 

[wgodw1]

ECU 100%. I turned down UNC for ECU and don’t regret it a bit. Great clinical experiences at the CSLCs and cheaper


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[P7898]

I wonder what OP chose? Isn't it passed the deadline?

 

[predent2151]

I wonder what OP chose? Isn't it passed the deadline?

ECU