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I recently came across a pamphlet advertising perio plastic surgery courses. Unfortunately some perio are trying to come across as surgeons. This is false advertising. I don't think this accurately describes the gum procedures they are involved in.
 

aphistis

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omfsapplicant said:
I recently came across a pamphlet advertising perio plastic surgery courses. Unfortunately some perio are trying to come across as surgeons. This is false advertising. I don't think this accurately describes the gum procedures they are involved in.
Oh goodie. I was just thinking that there hasn't been enough mob hatred toward perio the last few weeks.
 

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omfsapplicant said:
I recently came across a pamphlet advertising perio plastic surgery courses. Unfortunately some perio are trying to come across as surgeons. This is false advertising. I don't think this accurately describes the gum procedures they are involved in.
If you care to be proactive, you can probably report it to your dental society. I think they have some division that is in charge of cracking down on "false advertising." I recall one of our professors in dental school telling us that the dental society came after him for using the term "family and cosmetic dentistry" and made him change this signs to read "general dentistry including family, cosmetic, and children" or something like that.
 

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What do you think Periodontists do 99% of the time....... SURGERY!!!!! It kills me that OMFS's think they are the only ones that know how to use a scaple! There is alot to soft tissue grafting procedures and the prevention of scarring, try and become educated before making sensless comments!
 

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I believe the "plastic surgery" that that periodontists are advertising are gingival grafts repairing dishescences and recessions, gingiva-plasty to create esthetics according to smile line, etc. I don't believe it's the "plastic surgery" you're thinking about such as what Dr. Rey are doing on Dr. 90210.

Periodontal "plastic surgery" is taught here in lectures at Nova Dental. It's not uncommon for Periodontists to refer some of their procedures as "plastic surgery", afterall, they are contouring soft tissue (most gingiva).

I was taught that even general dentists are techinically considered "surgeons" since we "cut" into live tissue (drilling a tooth). If Periodontists feels that they're surgeons, then I say let them be. After all, they do see much more blood than GPs and they do quite a bit of flap elevation, alveolectomy, dental implants, and they do suture like crazy after their procedures (perio slings).

You're right, they don't do as intense surgeries as OMFSs, their patients don't go under GA, but they do non-malpracticible (is this even a word?) "surgeries".
 

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Huh? They're cutting up bone and soft tissue. I don't what else you'd call that BUT surgery. You lay a little flap to extract a tooth and it's a surgical extraction, but the periodontist lays open half the alveolus, goes after it with a chisel and handpiece, removes some tissue from the palate to graft to the flapped gingiva and that's NOT surgery?
 

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12YearOldKid said:
Huh? They're cutting up bone and soft tissue. I don't what else you'd call that BUT surgery.
I'm going to have to agree (of course).
 

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ItsGavinC said:
I'm going to have to agree (of course).
It is surgery, albeit not terribly invasive. When I do a history and physical and get to the past surgical history, I typically don't include dental procedures like perio surgery or even third molars. There are a lot of procedures in medicine that involve cutting soft tissue and bone like cental line placement, bone marrow aspiration that aren't cosider surgery and are done by nonsurgical specialist or generalist.
 
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primary care docs will remove a mole, but no body is calling them surgeons. You can't be a surgeon if you don't know were the ORs are.
 

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omfsres said:
It is surgery, albeit not terribly invasive. When I do a history and physical and get to the past surgical history, I typically don't include dental procedures like perio surgery or even third molars. There are a lot of procedures in medicine that involve cutting soft tissue and bone like cental line placement, bone marrow aspiration that aren't cosider surgery and are done by nonsurgical specialist or generalist.
Come on fellow OMFS , you gotta give to the "Plastic Oral Surgeons",since they said they can handle the tissue more gently than General oral Surgeons, place Implants not "Breasts", do flaps, reconstruct alveolus, voila you have a "PLASTIC SURGEON" ,may be they will come up with oral liposuction in the future and They may have a show on E!.
 

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MAXFAC said:
Come on fellow OMFS , you gotta give to the "Plastic Oral Surgeons",since they said they can handle the tissue more gently than General oral Surgeons, place Implants not "Breasts", do flaps, reconstruct alveolus, voila you have a "PLASTIC SURGEON" ,may be they will come up with oral liposuction in the future and They may have a show on E!.
I heard of a new procedure the "oral plastics" guys are pushing. Little tiny saline implants under the gingiva to reconstuct a resorbed canine eminence. :laugh:
 

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omfsres said:
I heard of a new procedure the "oral plastics" guys are pushing. Little tiny saline implants under the gingiva to reconstuct a resorbed canine eminence. :laugh:
Hey anything for the attached gingiva.
 

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omfsapplicant said:
I recently came across a pamphlet advertising perio plastic surgery courses. Unfortunately some perio are trying to come across as surgeons. This is false advertising. I don't think this accurately describes the gum procedures they are involved in.
Let's remember for the 70% of us who will get a DDS that it stands for doctor of dental surgery. Cutting hard or soft tissue counts. There's endo surgery, oral surgery, perio surgery, plastic surgery...
 
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gumgardener2009 said:
Let's remember for the 70% of us who will get a DDS that it stands for doctor of dental surgery. Cutting hard or soft tissue counts. There's endo surgery, oral surgery, perio surgery, plastic surgery...
the point is that the perio is being deceptive in their training by using the above mentioned terminology. It reflects poorly on all of us. Just garden baby
 

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omfsapplicant said:
the point is that the perio is being deceptive in their training by using the above mentioned terminology. It reflects poorly on all of us. Just garden baby

Actually, they are not being deceptive. The term periodontal plastic surgery had been used for many years (not sure exactly how long) to describe proceedures that a periodontist does. Just because you are ignorant of the meaning of the term, doesn't mean that they are being deceptive.
 

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1-16-17-32 said:
Actually, they are not being deceptive. The term periodontal plastic surgery had been used for many years (not sure exactly how long) to describe proceedures that a periodontist does. Just because you are ignorant of the meaning of the term, doesn't mean that they are being deceptive.
I fix fractured bones, I'm going to start calling myself an orthopedic surgeon. :cool:
 

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this is a controversial issue. i know in medicine, even general surgeons don't think other specialty surgery like ob/gyn, opthalomologist are "real" surgeons. as the matter of fact, not to belittle our field (omfs), after seeing alot of the operations done by general surgeons during medschool, i don't even consider myself as a surgeon by doing some mandible fractures. and periodontist thinks they are surgeons? what a joke! don't get me wrong, im proud of being an oral surgeon, but in the eyes of medical field, we're still bunch of dentists....
 

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omfsres said:
I fix fractured bones, I'm going to start calling myself an orthopedic surgeon. :cool:
As long as you call yourself an oral & maxillofacial orthopedic surgeon. If you can fit it on your business card, go for it. ;)
 
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aphistis said:
As long as you call yourself an oral & maxillofacial orthopedic surgeon. If you can fit it on your business card, go for it. ;)
To go against 3/4 of the post on this site, it isn't all about income and advertising. Don't forget your their to treat pts. Just because it crept in a couple of years ago, does not make it any less deceptive. You comprimse informed consent if you try and come across as something you are not.

As far as the rest of the medical field goes, all subspecialties battle each other. I believe it is your job in med school to infor the med students it is exactly what we do. Granted genereal surg may not look at opth. or obgyn as surgeons, but they don't spend anytime on gen surg like orht, uro, ent, and us.
 

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This topic was only raised due to the insecurities of a wantabe OMFS. I'll bet you when he actually graduates an matures this wouldn’t be an issue that he needs to waste his time thinking about. Check out dental town for a second and see what some of the perio guys are doing - full edentulous block grafts, ridge expansion, sinus lifts, full arch implants, etc. If you think this is the same as burning a mole off, I am sorry but you don't have the intelligence to make it as an OMFS. There is allot to perio in relation to aesthetics and that is where the plastics comes in, it refers to oral tissue plastic surgery, not botox and face lifts!
 
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Drtrigeminal said:
This topic was only raised due to the insecurities of a wantabe OMFS. I'll bet you when he actually graduates an matures this wouldn’t be an issue that he needs to waste his time thinking about. Check out dental town for a second and see what some of the perio guys are doing - full edentulous block grafts, ridge expansion, sinus lifts, full arch implants, etc. If you think this is the same as burning a mole off, I am sorry but you don't have the intelligence to make it as an OMFS. There is allot to perio in relation to aesthetics and that is where the plastics comes in, it refers to oral tissue plastic surgery, not botox and face lifts!
all very minor procedures, especially considering perio can't leave the mouth, how much can they really graft? Thouhh some of this does scare me. Especially since their pts aren't calling perio residents at night. just garden baby
 

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Do we really need the bickering between specialties? Periodontists perform plastic surgery of gum tissue. Get over it. If they didn't, cosmetic dentistry would really suck. The two go hand in hand. Plastic surgery is "surgery to remodel, repair, or restore body parts, especially by the transfer of tissue". So it's not liposuction, bletheroplasty or breast implants... big deal. It's still called plastic surgery. If you think that's lame, fine. This isn't an issue for most people. Let's move on.
 

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Periodontal Plastic Procedures

I'm starting my perio residency in July so I have to respect the perio dudes, but I have to admit,in the first case pictures on this link above, I think the BEFORE looks better than the AFTER. And I especially like how on the 2nd one, the girl turns pretty after crown lenghtening :laugh:
 

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Drtrigeminal said:
It kills me that OMFS's think they are the only ones that know how to use a scaple!
Maybe we're just the only ones who can spell it.
 

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The unanswered question it this: Why all the effort to include the words "plastic surgery" in your job title? It's obvious. "Plastic surgery" is a marketing phrase these days, with all the pseudo-glory that goes with it. Non-plastic surgeons are just looking for a way to ride the wave, at least in the eye of the public.
 

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I agree. Is it necessarily a bad thing? I don't know. With the success of extreme makeover, I think they're just trying to get on that bandwagon. If it brings in patients, more power to them (and dentistry in general).
 

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toofache32 said:
The unanswered question it this: Why all the effort to include the words "plastic surgery" in your job title? It's obvious. "Plastic surgery" is a marketing phrase these days, with all the pseudo-glory that goes with it. Non-plastic surgeons are just looking for a way to ride the wave, at least in the eye of the public.
The original post in this thread had nothing to do with anybody marketing themselves as "periodontal plastic surgeons" but rather a pamphlet advertising CE on esthetic perio that was obviously intended only for periodontists. I have never heard of anyone promoting themselves as a periodontal plastic surgeon and I doubt that you have either because it just sounds ******ed.

omfsapplicants big beef is with periodontists thinking they can do surgery --- which they do all day long.
 
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12YearOldKid said:
The original post in this thread had nothing to do with anybody marketing themselves as "periodontal plastic surgeons" but rather a pamphlet advertising CE on esthetic perio that was obviously intended only for periodontists. I have never heard of anyone promoting themselves as a periodontal plastic surgeon and I doubt that you have either because it just sounds ******ed.

omfsapplicants big beef is with periodontists thinking they can do surgery --- which they do all day long.
maybe i'll take this ce course and start performing some oral plastic surgery. Why shouldn't omf move some gum tissue around?
 

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omfsapplicant said:
maybe i'll take this ce course and start performing some oral plastic surgery. Why shouldn't omf move some gum tissue around?
Because you're not trained for it. For such a simple concept, you're having a pretty hard time wrapping your head around it.
 

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aphistis said:
Because you're not trained for it. For such a simple concept, you're having a pretty hard time wrapping your head around it.
How do you know?
 

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Move as much ST as you want if you feel comfortable doing it! Just to let you in on a secret, Perio's do go to school for an extra 3 years to learn to do it properly so you may be at a disadvantage. I would put more of your efforts into actually geting into OMFS or maybe even graduating from dental school!!!
 
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perio is a 9-5 residency. Three years is an over statement. Anyway, I have every confidence I will be obtain the skills for gum procedures, it is entirely within the scope of omf.

As for aphistis, for such limited experience and insight your level of commentary has far outrun its limit. Enough of the oneliners. Coming from indiana, you should probably be studyng for your boards
 

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omfsres said:
How do you know?
I don't, but I think it's a reasonable leap of faith to presume a user named "omfsapplicant" probably isn't a boarded periodontist.

omfsapplicant said:
As for aphistis, for such limited experience and insight your level of commentary has far outrun its limit. Enough of the oneliners. Coming from indiana, you should probably be studyng for your boards
What, so it's OK for you to castigate me for something in one sentence, and then do it yourself the next? If that's your idea of penetrating insight, you can keep it.
 
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aphistis said:
I don't, but I think it's a reasonable leap of faith to presume a user named "omfsapplicant" probably isn't a boarded periodontist.



What, so it's OK for you to castigate me for something in one sentence, and then do it yourself the next? If that's your idea of penetrating insight, you can keep it.
your ability to miss key pnts is only surpassed by your poor comments. omsres was only making the pnt that soft tissue procedures are within the realm of omf. Scaling is not. You have offiacly been banned from topics concerning omfs. Sorry but I think it is best for eveyone.
 

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omfsapplicant said:
your ability to miss key pnts is only surpassed by your poor comments. omsres was only making the pnt that soft tissue procedures are within the realm of omf. Scaling is not. You have offiacly been banned from topics concerning omfs. Sorry but I think it is best for eveyone.
..."offiacly"?

And, thanks for the generous offer to dictate my posting decisions to me, but I think I'll stick to speaking for myself.
 

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omfsapplicant said:
perio is a 9-5 residency. Three years is an over statement. Anyway, I have every confidence I will be obtain the skills for gum procedures, it is entirely within the scope of omf.

Are you really saying this? Are you in clinic yet? Have you talked to a dentist in your life? I'd love to see an oral surgeon do multiple esthetic crown lengthenings/ root coverage for a 30k esthetic case. I'm sure it would turn out lovely. Besides implants and taking out teeth, oral surgeons and periodontists do different things. To assume you can do what a periodontist does because gum surgery is in the realm of oral surgery is ridiculous. Go shadow a periodontist. Otherwise, go ahead and put down the other specialties because it's obvious you'll be an expert at everything when you get out. You'll be picked on enough by ENT and plastics in your residency- it's too soon for you to start alienating your fellow dentists (you may actually have to count on us one day). Just remember there's no heirarchy in dentistry (and it sounds from your posts that you're trying to create one with OMFS at the top). If there was a heirarchy, the general dentist would for sure be at the top.
 

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omfsapplicant said:
all very minor procedures, especially considering perio can't leave the mouth, how much can they really graft? Thouhh some of this does scare me. Especially since their pts aren't calling perio residents at night. just garden baby
In conversation with a perio resident, apparently if the periodontist has hospital privileges, he/she could harvest bone from the iliac crest. That may be close to your mouth but not mine.
 

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omfsapplicant said:
primary care docs will remove a mole, but no body is calling them surgeons. You can't be a surgeon if you don't know were the ORs are.
That is freakin' funny! Oh man, I've missed a juicy thread while I've been away. Sorry I haven't been here to add my $0.02. I took omfsres' wife to the Bahamas this past week (along with my wife--three's not a crowd!) and just got in today. BTW, north2south, I saw your mom swimming around on my snorkling excursion. She said "Hi".
 

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UTDental said:
I'd love to see an oral surgeon do multiple esthetic crown lengthenings/ root coverage for a 30k esthetic case. I'm sure it would turn out lovely.
First, what a waste of money. Second, I'm having a hard time understanding why I can anastomose the vascular pedicle of a free flap with a microscope and 9-0 suture but I can't do some simple gingival surgery? Periodontists don't go to school for three years to do esthetic crown lengthening. They don't do that procedure 24/7 for three years.

Besides, what did they do for three years before this procedure came to their specialty? Is there specialty so simple they learn everything except crown lengthening in a day and spend the remaining three years only learning the mysteries of crown lengthening?

UTDental said:
To assume you can do what a periodontist does because gum surgery is in the realm of oral surgery is ridiculous. Go shadow a periodontist.
To assume otherwise is idiotic. If an oral surgeon can't do gum surgery he probably needs to head back to residency. By your logic it is ridiculous for a periodontist to assume he can do bone grafts and extract impacted 3rds just because bone and tooth surgery is in his realm.

UTDental said:
Otherwise, go ahead and put down the other specialties because it's obvious you'll be an expert at everything when you get out. You'll be picked on enough by ENT and plastics in your residency- it's too soon for you to start alienating your fellow dentists (you may actually have to count on us one day). Just remember there's no heirarchy in dentistry (and it sounds from your posts that you're trying to create one with OMFS at the top). If there was a heirarchy, the general dentist would for sure be at the top.
I love it when people say this. Comments made on the internet do not have anything to do with real life. If you don't understand this it's probably b/c your only friends are on the internet; therefore, no real life. BTW, the ENT fellow at my institution scrubs on our cases b/c he thinks his department sucks. ENT also calls us routinely when they don't know what to do.

PS, there is a hierarchy in dentistry with OMFS at the bottom/top depending on how you look at it. OMFS gets everything that everyone else doesn't know how to handle form both the dental and the medical world. OMFS is the garbage dump of complications and enigmas. If you don't know what's going on, call OMFS. That makes us the bottom b/c **** rolls down hill. It also makes us the top. You are at the top of your field if you are final consult. I can't consult anyone else; when the patient arrives at my door I have to handle it. I get patients b/c no one else know what to do with them, including the periodontist.
 

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gumgardener2009 said:
In conversation with a perio resident, apparently if the periodontist has hospital privileges, he/she could harvest bone from the iliac crest. That may be close to your mouth but not mine.
"Hospital privileges" are not carte blanche. The hospital doens't say, "You've got OR privileges so now you can do anything you want!". Otherwise omsres could do brain surgery. Your privileges outline what you may do and I promise you NO hospital IN THE ENTIRE WORLD will give a periodontist privileges to harvest iliac crest bone, unless periodontists are now using the term "iliac crest" in reference to some part of the anterior mandible, similar to stealing the term "plastic surgery".
 

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Don't want to hurt any periodontists feelings but I know plenty of general dentists that do everything you spend 3 years of your life learning how to do. There is no mystery to crown lengthening. Give me a break. :thumbdown:
 

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tx oms- i can't disagree with anything you said. I'm just getting the idea that some of the posts of oral surgeons on here make it sound like perio is obsolete. They are still around only because they do stuff that omfs doesn't care to do (but omfs could certainly do these procedures well if they wanted). I just can't find that to be true because nobody can be the master at everything. I don't know everything about perio but they've got to be learning something during those three years that you don't. And it's not just treating periodontitis/crown lengthening (I agree crown lengthing is no mystery but I wouldn't want someone doing it in the anterior region who doesn't do it routinely). Otherwise, why does this specialty exist? A lot general dentists say that perio is their go to specialty for implants and soft tissue surgery (so I'm just not buying into it). And not to mention the referrals of patients who want to save their teeth (and not take the easy way out and get them yanked).
 

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UTDental, I agree with everything you said. I guess we can now hug and sing together. Anyway, you're right: perio guys do things OMFS guys don't want to do, a situation you find throughout medicine. OB/GYN do procedures that any urologist or family practice doc could do. I also don't want people doing something on me they don't do routinely. Sure, periodontists study crown lengthening in greater depth than I do, but you'll find that beyond a certain point that stuff gets essoteric. You can read all about extracting teeth, but until you do a couple hundred difficult extractions you aren't "good" at it. Same with crown lengthening.
 

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tx oms said:
...BTW, north2south, I saw your mom swimming around on my snorkling excursion...
Did she have a harpoon stuck in her side? :barf:
 

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gumgardener2009 said:
In conversation with a perio resident, apparently if the periodontist has hospital privileges, he/she could harvest bone from the iliac crest. That may be close to your mouth but not mine.
I would love to see a periodontist harvest iliac crest!!!! You're out of your mind! Are they doing free flaps as well?

tjb
 

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You guys are so misinformed it makes me laugh! If you think all Perio's do is crown lengthening, you need some help! Have you heard of GTR, GBR, sinus lifts, block grafts, ridge expansion, SECTG's - there is allot more learning in those 3 years than you think. To address the comment of GP's doing perio, I should hope a GP can crown lengthen a tooth, just like I hope they can do RCT's, exo teeth, etc!!!!! If you were having pre-pros surg for a full mouth rehab who would you want handling the ST and OMFS or a Perio - myself and 90% of dentists would choose the later!