personal liability insurance for pre-med shadowing?

[C5b6789]

I have read all of the recent threads asking about shadowing, but I can't find anything about my question.

I have been trying to find shadowing opportunities for a while now, and I was aware that I would face a lot of red tape and rejections. I've probably spoken to 18 different medical office managers now and they have all said it's against the policies of HIPAA/their office/their health system/etc. to allow someone to shadow a physician. They have all said it's about confidentiality and liability. Some of the physicians even agreed to have me shadow, but then it always fell through because of one supposed policy or another.

Most recently, the physician's office manager I spoke with said that I would need "personal liability insurance" for them to even consider it. They said that medical students, nursing students and PA students are covered by their schools for preceptorships/clerkships, but just a random pre-med student is not since I have no training and I'm not enrolled in any professional school.

I still don't really understand why insurance would be necessary since shadowing literally involves me just standing there, not saying or doing anything. But she said if I trip and fall, or if the patient sues the physician that I was shadowing, then I wouldn't be covered.

I tried to look up what "personal liability insurance" is about, but I honestly am just more confused. I'm not a lawyer. It seems like it is often tied to car insurance, or small businesses, or an "umbrella policy". But I have no certification or training for an insurance policy to cover me with, so I don't even know how that would work!

Has anyone had to purchase this type of insurance for shadowing? Any advice?

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[cabinbuilder]

I have read all of the recent threads asking about shadowing, but I can't find anything about my question.

I have been trying to find shadowing opportunities for a while now, and I was aware that I would face a lot of red tape and rejections. I've probably spoken to 18 different medical office managers now and they have all said it's against the policies of HIPAA/their office/their health system/etc. to allow someone to shadow a physician. They have all said it's about confidentiality and liability. Some of the physicians even agreed to have me shadow, but then it always fell through because of one supposed policy or another.

Most recently, the physician's office manager I spoke with said that I would need "personal liability insurance" for them to even consider it. They said that medical students, nursing students and PA students are covered by their schools for preceptorships/clerkships, but just a random pre-med student is not since I have no training and I'm not enrolled in any professional school.

I still don't really understand why insurance would be necessary since shadowing literally involves me just standing there, not saying or doing anything. But she said if I trip and fall, or if the patient sues the physician that I was shadowing, then I wouldn't be covered.

I tried to look up what "personal liability insurance" is about, but I honestly am just more confused. I'm not a lawyer. It seems like it is often tied to car insurance, or small businesses, or an "umbrella policy". But I have no certification or training for an insurance policy to cover me with, so I don't even know how that would work!

Has anyone had to purchase this type of insurance for shadowing? Any advice?

There is NO REASON for you to need any type of insurance since you are there to shadow and should not be touching any patient. Med students, etc assist in procedures and would need insurance.

 

[WillburCobb]

 

[Pesquisador]

Has anyone had to purchase this type of insurance for shadowing? Any advice?

No way man! Are you trying to shadow a certain specialty? I'm sure some places like larger clinics have rules like these, and an OB for example might not be ok with random stranger shadowers, but 18 of them? What kind of practices are you asking at and what region is this?

For shadowing I never went to the office manager, just the front desk if not the doc themselves. Leave a handwritten letter and Ask if Dr. so-and-so would be interested in hosting a shadowing experience, and leave managing staff out of it. That's not a dodge, it's going to the source.

Try a smaller or a private practice where the doc makes the rules - most of them will be quite receptive. If the same thing comes up again, explain you would be happy to provide sign any waivers to make everyone more comfortable, but if that doesn't satisfy then forget them. Spam out some more visits in-person to small practices or friends of friends connections, I'll bet you'll find something in less than a month.

Good luck!👍

 

[kad690775]

Try e-mailing doctors at the closest med school to you, they let students shadow all the time, the only thing you may need to do is get a titer test before you start.

 

[Mehd School]

They're blowing smoke up your ass. And honestly, they're going pretty far to tell you no. Usually they don't put that much effort into it.

 

[C5b6789]

No way man! Are you trying to shadow a certain specialty? I'm sure some places like larger clinics have rules like these, and an OB for example might not be ok with random stranger shadowers, but 18 of them? What kind of practices are you asking at and what region is this?

For shadowing I never went to the office manager, just the front desk if not the doc themselves. Leave a handwritten letter and Ask if Dr. so-and-so would be interested in hosting a shadowing experience, and leave managing staff out of it. That's not a dodge, it's going to the source.

Try a smaller or a private practice where the doc makes the rules - most of them will be quite receptive. If the same thing comes up again, explain you would be happy to provide sign any waivers to make everyone more comfortable, but if that doesn't satisfy then forget them. Spam out some more visits in-person to small practices or friends of friends connections, I'll bet you'll find something in less than a month.

Good luck!👍

I am located in the bay area (CA), and have been looking for offices from northern CA to central CA since I am basically willing to go anywhere that takes me. These were all family medicine physicians since that is what I am mostly interested in. They were all clinics, some affiliated with health systems and some private practices. I have shadowed an OB/GYN prior to moving here. One of my parents works in health care, so about half of the offices were through personal references and I was not coming in as a complete stranger. Other physicians were family friends of my parent, and even that didn't seem enough to get through the policies in place to prevent shadowing.

Every time I contact the office, the receptionist has referred me to the office manager. I'm not sure how to get around this. In all of these cases I have had contact with the physician through email or phone, but the physicians seem to be just as lost when it comes to the policies, which is why they recruit the office manager to help look up the rules.

Try e-mailing doctors at the closest med school to you, they let students shadow all the time, the only thing you may need to do is get a titer test before you start.

I have tried doing this at the nearest DO school, but so far I have only been able to visit their student clinic. I've asked medical schools and they say shadowing only counts if it's with someone with a medical degree, so being around med students does not count. I have had 2 TB tests in the past year and all my immunizations are up to date.



Thank you for the replies, I will continue searching.

 

[bionerd89]

I am located in the bay area (CA), and have been looking for offices from northern CA to central CA since I am basically willing to go anywhere that takes me. These were all family medicine physicians since that is what I am mostly interested in. They were all clinics, some affiliated with health systems and some private practices. I have shadowed an OB/GYN prior to moving here. One of my parents works in health care, so about half of the offices were through personal references and I was not coming in as a complete stranger. Other physicians were family friends of my parent, and even that didn't seem enough to get through the policies in place to prevent shadowing.

Every time I contact the office, the receptionist has referred me to the office manager. I'm not sure how to get around this. In all of these cases I have had contact with the physician through email or phone, but the physicians seem to be just as lost when it comes to the policies, which is why they recruit the office manager to help look up the rules.


I have tried doing this at the nearest DO school, but so far I have only been able to visit their student clinic. I've asked medical schools and they say shadowing only counts if it's with someone with a medical degree, so being around med students does not count. I have had 2 TB tests in the past year and all my immunizations are up to date.



Thank you for the replies, I will continue searching.

Hi I'm in the same situation as you. I'm located in the Bay Area and I've been searching for a DO but so far I've had no luck. Good Luck.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Sounds lilke you are trying to shadow in places the doctor has no say and are just employees of a big brother system - this can be a problem. Try more rural clinics, etc. Try not to go through the manager, call and ask for the nurse and get the message through the doctor from that angle. They usually have more pull, be sure to f/u with a scond phone call to the nurse to see if she/he was able to get an answer for you.

 

[C5b6789]

Sounds lilke you are trying to shadow in places the doctor has no say and are just employees of a big brother system - this can be a problem. Try more rural clinics, etc. Try not to go through the manager, call and ask for the nurse and get the message through the doctor from that angle. They usually have more pull, be sure to f/u with a scond phone call to the nurse to see if she/he was able to get an answer for you.

I have never requested to speak with the office manager. I am either referred to the manager by the administrative assistant since they usually don't understand what I'm asking about, or I speak to the physician who then goes to the office manager to get clearance and that's where problems occur.

I can try speaking with the nurse, but I would think they would just refer me to the physician, who would again involve the office manager. I think the physicians are just trying to make sure they're following the rules if they're part of a health system.

I did try a few clinics in rural areas of central CA, but they were all part of health systems. I can try finding private clinics but the majority I have researched seem to be connected to some sort of health network. Not sure if this is a CA thing or not. Maybe I'll look closer to the CA/Oregon border even though it would be quite a drive.

 

[Oo Cipher oO]

Hi I'm in the same situation as you. I'm located in the Bay Area and I've been searching for a DO but so far I've had no luck. Good Luck.

Have you tried contacting Touro-CA? If there are like our school they may let you shadow one of thier clinical staff.

 

[Pose]

Call them back and say you got the insurance...just to see what they say next. I'm curious.

 

[Wipeout416]

call them back and say you got the insurance...just to see what they say next. I'm curious.

+1

 

[C5b6789]

Call them back and say you got the insurance...just to see what they say next. I'm curious.

I can try next week after the holiday.

 

[kami333]

If you have renters insurance you probably already have personal liability insurance.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Or Western?

 

[C5b6789]

Or Western?

I've spoken to 3 different admissions counselors at Western and they have all just referred me to the AOA website even though I've explained my situation. They would not release any sort of list I could use to contact physicians or alumni.

I could try to contact faculty on my own, but it seems like most of them listed on the website are more involved with teaching/research.

 

[C5b6789]

If you have renters insurance you probably already have personal liability insurance.

I live with family so I do not currently have renters insurance.

I looked this up and it seems like some policies also provide liability coverage, but it only gives you financial protection if someone is accidentally injured on the rental property...which is not the case with shadowing.

 

[kami333]

I live with family so I do not currently have renters insurance.

I looked this up and it seems like some policies also provide liability coverage, but it only gives you financial protection if someone is accidentally injured on the rental property...which is not the case with shadowing.

It depends on the policy but you can get coverage for incidents away from the home as well, my policy from Progressive does.

Also ask your family about their homeowners insurance, family members could be considered covered parties (as opposed to non-related rooommates).

 

[Bacchus]

It depends on the policy but you can get coverage for incidents away from the home as well, my policy from Progressive does.

Also ask your family about their homeowners insurance, family members could be considered covered parties (as opposed to non-related rooommates).

I don't know if this is serious or not, but you should NOT be paying for liability insurance to shadow someone. That is ludicrous.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Agreed, anyone who tells you this doesn't understand what you'll be doing

 

[C5b6789]

Agreed, anyone who tells you this doesn't understand what you'll be doing

Yes I understand. I have clarified each time that I am only needing to be with the physician, listening/observing but not saying or doing anything in the rooms.

Their rebuttal to this was that "if I trip and fall" then they would be liable. I told them I could sign any paper saying I would take any and all responsibility for myself, but there doesn't seem to be an official form for me to sign.

Their second statement was that "if a patient sues the physician, then they would also be responsible for me and I would be involved in this legal matter". I did not know what to say to this because I wouldn't be doing anything so I don't know why I would be at any fault.

 

[kami333]

I don't know if this is serious or not, but you should NOT be paying for liability insurance to shadow someone. That is ludicrous.

I agree.

Just pointing out that many already do have coverage without realizing it.

 

[Dreamstoo]

I did have to do this for one doctor I shadowed. It was bizarre and took about 2 weeks to do all the required screening to follow him around and just listen to what he's telling patients and his fellow medical students...

Depends on the hospital. The other doctor I shadowed was able to just get me a badge within the first 2 hours and said I could go anywhere with it. I was told if I ever got stopped, I can just tell them I'm shadowing so and so. Never had any problems, worked there a lot in high school as well. A lot of the people knew me already.

But the first experience of shadowing had a lot of protocols that I had to do before I could start (it wasted a lot of time, everything I was required to learn was never used or applied to me). Occasionally, I would be sent on errands by nurses while the doctor I shadowed was busy. Besides following simple instructions on where to go, a lot of the protocols were useless in my case. But I guess if the hospital or doctor requires it, I guess it could be worth it.

 

[Bacchus]

Yes I understand. I have clarified each time that I am only needing to be with the physician, listening/observing but not saying or doing anything in the rooms.

Their rebuttal to this was that "if I trip and fall" then they would be liable. I told them I could sign any paper saying I would take any and all responsibility for myself, but there doesn't seem to be an official form for me to sign.

Their second statement was that "if a patient sues the physician, then they would also be responsible for me and I would be involved in this legal matter". I did not know what to say to this because I wouldn't be doing anything so I don't know why I would be at any fault.

This is stupid. You would never go to court because you're not rendering medical care. You're shadowing for [whatever's] sake. You're not touching the patient, managing treatment, etc.

😡 This bothers me, a lot.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Bacchus, that's because you don't like stupid people, and clearly the person on the other end of this phone call that our OP spoke with is an idiot.

1. you trip and fall as a patient in their clinic, they're paying for it, if you tripped as a person taking a tour they're paying for it, if you worked there they're paying for it. So you don't need personal liability insurance because personal liability doesn't even COVER stuff like this. It would be more like "you slipped, fell, and broke their very expensive piece of equipment, and you have to pay for it" not "you fell and twisted your ankle"...
2. A shadow is a shadow, you are not, and cannot be involved in a lawsuit UNLESS it was to testify to actions of either the patient or the physician/nurse/MA/etc. You could NOT possibly be named in a lawsuit against the clinic/hospital/etc. Your name won't even appear on their chart, and likely no one would even remember your presence.

You need to write this place off, because what they're telling you is a load of bull$^%*.... Where do you live? I have classmates from CA all over the place, and I can ask and see what they did, where they went etc...

 

[C5b6789]

You need to write this place off, because what they're telling you is a load of bull$^%*.... Where do you live? I have classmates from CA all over the place, and I can ask and see what they did, where they went etc...

Yes I agree, and I will continue trying to contact other places because it does not seem like this is a normal occurrence for others who have shadowed.

I am currently living in the bay area, specifically oakland/east bay area. But I have family in sacramento, davis, the central valley so I am willing to travel. I also have family in santa monica & orange county (southern CA) but I do not think it would be ideal to travel that far because I am hoping to find someone to shadow on a regular basis or at least for more than one occasion. I would be very thankful if you could message me with any providers or health systems that might be more accommodating.

 

[corpsman33]

Yes I agree, and I will continue trying to contact other places because it does not seem like this is a normal occurrence for others who have shadowed.

I am currently living in the bay area, specifically oakland/east bay area. But I have family in sacramento, davis, the central valley so I am willing to travel. I also have family in santa monica & orange county (southern CA) but I do not think it would be ideal to travel that far because I am hoping to find someone to shadow on a regular basis or at least for more than one occasion. I would be very thankful if you could message me with any providers or health systems that might be more accommodating.

In the Central Valley I would try Community Regional Medical Center Fresno. They are a teaching hospital and take premeds and students all the time. Since it is the biggest hospital in the Central Valley you will probably have to jump through a few hoops, but I imagine you could get in.

 

[C5b6789]

In the Central Valley I would try Community Regional Medical Center Fresno. They are a teaching hospital and take premeds and students all the time. Since it is the biggest hospital in the Central Valley you will probably have to jump through a few hoops, but I imagine you could get in.

Yes I tried the VA first because they are also a teaching hospital but haven't gotten very far. I will keep trying with CRMC. Thanks!

 

[GUH]

I have read all of the recent threads asking about shadowing, but I can't find anything about my question.

I have been trying to find shadowing opportunities for a while now, and I was aware that I would face a lot of red tape and rejections. I've probably spoken to 18 different medical office managers now and they have all said it's against the policies of HIPAA/their office/their health system/etc. to allow someone to shadow a physician. They have all said it's about confidentiality and liability. Some of the physicians even agreed to have me shadow, but then it always fell through because of one supposed policy or another.

Most recently, the physician's office manager I spoke with said that I would need "personal liability insurance" for them to even consider it. They said that medical students, nursing students and PA students are covered by their schools for preceptorships/clerkships, but just a random pre-med student is not since I have no training and I'm not enrolled in any professional school.

I still don't really understand why insurance would be necessary since shadowing literally involves me just standing there, not saying or doing anything. But she said if I trip and fall, or if the patient sues the physician that I was shadowing, then I wouldn't be covered.

I tried to look up what "personal liability insurance" is about, but I honestly am just more confused. I'm not a lawyer. It seems like it is often tied to car insurance, or small businesses, or an "umbrella policy". But I have no certification or training for an insurance policy to cover me with, so I don't even know how that would work!

Has anyone had to purchase this type of insurance for shadowing? Any advice?

NEVER talk to the office managers; for the most part they don't know anything about medical education or shadowing and are too lazy to look into it.

Contact physicians directly, especially those who are in private practice since hospitals and big health systems almost always have stupid rules that effectively ban shadowing.

 

[C5b6789]

NEVER talk to the office managers; for the most part they don't know anything about medical education or shadowing and are too lazy to look into it.

Contact physicians directly, especially those who are in private practice since hospitals and big health systems almost always have stupid rules that effectively ban shadowing.

Yes, I understand I should not speak with the office manager. But as I described, they usually end up getting involved because the physician wants to make sure no rules are being broken...and they in turn go to the office manager for help. Not sure how I would ask the physician to not involve the office manager, as it does not seem like my place to say what they should/shouldn't do since it's their clinic. I am going to try to go through the suggested route of speaking with the nurse first and see where that gets me =)

I have never requested to speak with the office manager. I am either referred to the manager by the administrative assistant since they usually don't understand what I'm asking about, or I speak to the physician who then goes to the office manager to get clearance and that's where problems occur.

 

[Pose]

I had some trouble shadowing at a hospital, and the MD was a great friend of mine no less. Ultimately I went to the volunteer office, did all of the volunteer paperwork, got a badge, and just never signed up for volunteer shifts. This was the easiest way for me to not break institution rules, and still shadow.

Likely won't work for the office environment, but just another idea.

 

[C5b6789]

I had some trouble shadowing at a hospital, and the MD was a great friend of mine no less. Ultimately I went to the volunteer office, did all of the volunteer paperwork, got a badge, and just never signed up for volunteer shifts. This was the easiest way for me to not break institution rules, and still shadow.

Likely won't work for the office environment, but just another idea.

Yes I have tried this as well, and will try at another hospital soon once they open up their application.

Here is a response from a physician I received who went to the volunteer coordinator to check (I marked X where I took out identifiable details):

Hello X,

I spoke with X yesterday who is the volunteer service coordinator. She states that shadowing is not allow per (X hospital) policy since it violates patients’ privacy. I asked if there is any way around this and she said no.

I’m sorry about this bad news. I hope you’ll be able to find other physicians to shadow.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Biggest bull I've ever heard.

The whole point of Premed shadowing is that you're a SHADOW who sits in the corner of the room watching.


Now, if you're a Medical Student shadowing, the physician might do things like quiz you on various stuff or ask you to do an exam here and there.

 

[vxds11]

I know some of you have probably already used this, and I'm sorry if this has been presented already, but your situation is just out right contradicting to what we are SUPPOSE to do!

I mean, this is straight from the AOA iLEARN Mentor Exchange Program:

http://cf.osteopathic.org/iLearn/index.cfm?pageid=ment_faqs

"How do I shadow a DO?
It is a requirement of most colleges of osteopathic medicine to submit a letter of recommendation from a DO along with the application. Shadowing an osteopathic physician is the best way to obtain a letter of recommendation. To find a mentor to shadow log on to the site by visiting the Mentor Exchange page (if it is your first time logging on you will need to create a profile) and search for a mentor."

I'm sorry you have to jump through so many hoops just to be a fly on the wall.

 

[GUH]

I know some of you have probably already used this, and I'm sorry if this has been presented already, but your situation is just out right contradicting to what we are SUPPOSE to do!

I mean, this is straight from the AOA iLEARN Mentor Exchange Program:

http://cf.osteopathic.org/iLearn/index.cfm?pageid=ment_faqs

"How do I shadow a DO?
It is a requirement of most colleges of osteopathic medicine to submit a letter of recommendation from a DO along with the application. Shadowing an osteopathic physician is the best way to obtain a letter of recommendation. To find a mentor to shadow log on to the site by visiting the Mentor Exchange page (if it is your first time logging on you will need to create a profile) and search for a mentor."

I'm sorry you have to jump through so many hoops just to be a fly on the wall.

Yup; it's a ridiculous situation and sooner or later COM's are going to have to face the fact that a lot of premeds can't shadow unless they are well-connected.

I never got to shadow a DO for the exact reasons you guys can't. Instead I shadowed an MD FP who my dad knew for a couple of shifts and was done shadowing. If asked about why you didn't shadow a DO, tell them the truth. Contrary to what some will say, DO shadowing is not an absolute requirement for most DO schools. Focus on your MCAT.

 

[bionerd89]

I know some of you have probably already used this, and I'm sorry if this has been presented already, but your situation is just out right contradicting to what we are SUPPOSE to do!

I mean, this is straight from the AOA iLEARN Mentor Exchange Program:

http://cf.osteopathic.org/iLearn/index.cfm?pageid=ment_faqs

"How do I shadow a DO?
It is a requirement of most colleges of osteopathic medicine to submit a letter of recommendation from a DO along with the application. Shadowing an osteopathic physician is the best way to obtain a letter of recommendation. To find a mentor to shadow log on to the site by visiting the Mentor Exchange page (if it is your first time logging on you will need to create a profile) and search for a mentor."

I'm sorry you have to jump through so many hoops just to be a fly on the wall.

I live in the same area as the OP and I tried that website to request pretty much every DO in the area but still no luck. I called the program and they said they are in the middle of revamping the program since so many DO aren't responding or aren't committed.

 

[VisualEvolution]

I think the problem is that a lot of you are contacting these physicians via phone. I called maybe 10 DO's and all of them gave me some unique way of turning me down, much like your "liability insurance."

It wasn't until I spoke to a doctor in person that I was finally able to land a shadowing spot. Its just too easy for a receptionist or office manager to turn you down over the phone. When you're talking to a person face to face, its much more personal and I think people are more likely to cater to your needs. I literally drove around looking for ".....,DO" and was able to find two willing doctors after finally presenting myself in person. You guys should give it a try if you haven't already. 👍

 

[C5b6789]

I would like to ask a few more questions I have come across while trying to shadow. Any insight would be appreciated.

1. Does the act of shadowing violate patient privacy? Are there laws against shadowing? What EXACTLY are the rules? Does The Joint Commission outline any of these rules? Are the rules different everywhere?

2. If shadowing violates patient privacy, then why would medical schools be "highly recommending" something that violates the rules? If shadowing violates patient privacy, are medical schools aware that they are advocating we bend/break the rules or just find some place where the rules aren't enforced?

3. Why is it that some people are able to shadow, but others are told they cannot due to privacy policies/confidentiality? Do the shadowing policies only apply to certain pre-med students or certain locations?

4. Is there some sort of generic confidentiality training or HIPAA training certification I can do on my own to show them that I have been trained on these issues? If I went through volunteer training, would I then be covered/certified for the privacy policy training needed to shadow?

 

[bionerd89]

I would like to ask a few more questions I have come across while trying to shadow. Any insight would be appreciated.

1. Does the act of shadowing violate patient privacy? Are there laws against shadowing? What EXACTLY are the rules? Does The Joint Commission outline any of these rules? Are the rules different everywhere?

2. If shadowing violates patient privacy, then why would medical schools be "highly recommending" something that violates the rules? If shadowing violates patient privacy, are medical schools aware that they are advocating we bend/break the rules or just find some place where the rules aren't enforced?

3. Why is it that some people are able to shadow, but others are told they cannot due to privacy policies/confidentiality? Do the shadowing policies only apply to certain pre-med students or certain locations?

4. Is there some sort of generic confidentiality training or HIPAA training certification I can do on my own to show them that I have been trained on these issues? If I went through volunteer training, would I then be covered/certified for the privacy policy training needed to shadow?

I don't think there is a strict law but I think it depends on the location. I shadowed an MD for 3 years at a clinic and every time the doctor would first check with the patient if its okay for me to be there. I did an online HIPAA training for the clinic. I really think it depends how lucky the student is on picking the right place and the right physician.