Petition for Combined Match Status Thread

[TCOM-2006]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Over the weekend we held an osteopathic regional conference at PCOM with serveral talks, including one on the joint match issue. After the presentation, a nice lady named Vera spoke on behalf of the AOA and gave an argument against the joint match. Her argument was that AOA residencies will lose funding if they are not filled for 3 years. Secondly, due to increasing pressure to populate the industry, allopathic schools are being encouraged to churn out more graduates. Supposably, if DO grads participate in a joint match, things will be okay for a few years... until the increase in MD grads begins to populate all of the ACGME residencies, leaving DO grads to have nowhere to turn because many AOA residencies will have lost their funding.

What is your opinion of this argument?

it's very very important to understand the points made by doc-george on this regarding the current % of IMGs (like he said - IMGs currently outnumber DOs by 4 to 1). in general (fair or not) US graduates are preferred by ACGME programs.

this misleading viewpoint also assumes that residencies will always or most of the time take a USMD over a DO - which we know is not true because there are many DOs that enter competative ACHME specialties and programs.

 

[macman]

I am amazed at the fear shown by our leadership. They are taking a head in the sand approach, this is hardly what I would call effective leadership. This topic is so frustrating as it brings to light how totally inflexable the AOA really is. I wish we could sit down and have a real disscusion with the AOA, not that they would do anything more than listen. ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGG! 😡

Well, we just had Dr. Thomas at DMU and it went better than I expected. I brought up the combined match during the Q&A and it was very interesting to hear his perspective. I'd like to summarize what he said and our (DMU respondants) input as well:

Dr. Thomas: first he addressed the issue during his powerpoint and said that this issue came up at EVERY school he visited and he expected to discussion on the issue would ensue when he was done lecture. He then stated matter of factly that it is the current and FUTURE policy of the AOA to have a seperate match. It was clear from his remarks that he feels there is no doubt that a combined match will result in the destruction of AOA programs i.e. given the choice students will go for AMA programs more than they already do (very pessimistic for a leader I think). He drew strange analogies to the CA deal and to the 2004 election exit polling in that while students say we want it to for building the osteopathic GME we are basically lying and really want be MDs. So he is implying that the best way to fill these programs is not to IMPROVE them (he did not mention this as a possible solution) but to persist with our pseudo monopoly.

I think the KEY issue here is to convince the AOA and Dr. Thomas that we want it to help osteopathy, not to leave it! All petitions etc. should include this language(?)

My points to Dr. T included the fact that 2/3 graduating OMM fellows at our school are going to do allo. internships, BUT that we would have done AOA intern. with a combined match. This is b/c we both were applying to specialties where programs offer a PGY1 or PGY2 start-so we both had to opt out of the AOA match to give ourselves as many chances to match in a residency as possible. BUT our first choice was for a AOA approved internship with a PGY2 start in a allo resid. which is now not a possible rank choice.

Another student made the point that those who are dead set on allo. training can ALREADY do so. But maybe some of those would rank an osteo. program and well and then match there? There likely is a large amt. of students who would rank both osteo and allo together if they could. I did not even apply at MSU's PM&R program b/c of our current match system. That program went unfilled in a year where this specialty had tremendous fill rates, and it is not a bad program-it is the match system.

wheeew! I'm frustrated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least I got Dr. Thomas to change his stance on the seperate matches in that he said it COULD MAYBE change. This was when I challenged his first statement about it being the FUTURE policy of the AOA. I told him that this is not how we as physicians should behave-we CHANGE our behavior when given new evidence-and he agreed to try to stay open minded to evidence that contridicted his (pessimistic) views.

 

[Docgeorge]

That man is frustrating! He contradicts him self with every other statement he makes. One of the big planks in his plat form was that they have a survey from last year that shows 98% of interns in the AOA and ACGME got their first choice. When cofronted abuout the validity of his this survey, his response was that it was valid because a PhD did the study.

I'm trying to get a hold of his survey....I'll let you know what happens.

 

[macman]

That man is frustrating! He contradicts him self with every other statement he makes. One of the big planks in his plat form was that they have a survey from last year that shows 98% of interns in the AOA and ACGME got their first choice. When cofronted abuout the validity of his this survey, his response was that it was valid because a PhD did the study.

I'm trying to get a hold of his survey....I'll let you know what happens.

what I remember him saying specifically was that this survey (not a study I think) was done last year and included ALL DO grads (find that hard to believe), and he interpreted the results to mean that "only 40 something" DO students in the whole country would have benefited from a combined match. He based this on the fact that so many students get their 1st/2nd choice. I did too but that was in the acgme match and my true 1st choice for internship would have been AOA not acgme-I have a feeling that survey would not have counted me as needing the joint match. I'd bet $100.00 on it.

 

[Thousandth]

Dr. T's responses didn't even make any sense. I pointed out that the AOA's argument that they are protecting the residencies by not allowing a combined match doesn't hold water. Those who want to go ACGME over AOA are already going, those that want to go AOA are already doing that as well. The ONLY possible outcome of combinding i to INCREASE the number of students ranking AOA positions!! There is NO protection as it stands right now, in fact there stance is detrimental to AOA residencies and they can't even see it!!!

Another phrase Dr. T used repeatedly was that this combined match was a "Student Ground swell", well apparently he doesn't read his own journal the JAOA. Over the past few months there have been numerous letters the the editor from current practicing DO's in support of a combined match, including our very own Dr. Pandeya. He also convenantly omits the large support at the ACOFP conference from practicing DO's. These are NOT students!!!

Do these guys only talk to a few other people and read only those things which support there narrow veiwpoint?!!! The adimantly stuborn views of the AOA leadership is down right scary!!! For a few of the questions posed to Dr. T about possible changes his only response was a catergorical "NO!" without any data or reasoning to support his viewpoint.

Oh yeah and along the lines of the "only 42 people wouldhave been helped by a combined match so why should we change for just 1.6%?!" thats a load of crap!!! This year 500..yes FIVE HUNDRED.. DO students failed to match in the ACGME match and were forced to scramble. I guess those people couldn't possibly be helped by a combined match?! 500 out of 2900 (Dr. T's figures) makes 17.24%..not 1.6%... but I guess that number isn't big enough for them. It really looks like the only thing that will change their point of view short of them all retiring is for a entire graduating class to forgo the AOA match!!

Hmmmmm.. maybe we should orginize this? Then it would give us the best of both worlds.. we would FORCE the AOA match to happen after the ACGME thereby effectvley causing a combined match. Dr. T also made some comment that "If the AOA match was later this wouldn't even be an issue". Well I am sorry but yes it would be. As long as there is a clause that states if you match AOA you get yanked out of the ACGME match..then this will ALWAYS be an issue regardless of when the match happens!! I mean who in their right mind wants to forgo a gauranteed residency for a one year internship??!!!! Come on!!! There are a lot of problems with the AOA match othe than just when it happens.

 

[newyorkcougar]

I was just cruising around the AMA's website and found this interesting document. (I have not noticed it being referenced...so if this is redundant please forgive me.) It shows that there is AMA support for a combined match!

http://www.ama-assn.org/meetings/public/annual05/cme4a05.pdf

At the bottom of the first page (line 37) the report says:
"9. The Osteopathic Match should be incorporated into a single all-student match."

I just thought this was interesting...

 

[TCOM-2006]

I was just cruising around the AMA's website and found this interesting document. (I have not noticed it being referenced...so if this is redundant please forgive me.) It shows that there is AMA support for a combined match!

http://www.ama-assn.org/meetings/public/annual05/cme4a05.pdf

At the bottom of the first page (line 37) the report says:
"9. The Osteopathic Match should be incorporated into a single all-student match."

I just thought this was interesting...

well - there is not yet official AMA support for the combined match - this resolution was *referred for study and report back* at the june 2004 meeting, not adopted. this report is simple re-stating the resolution. the report does make recomendations which *if approved by the AMA house of delegates at the upcoming june 2005 meeting* will become policy. one of the recomendations is:

That our AMA request that the NRMP explore the possibility of including the Osteopathic Match in the NRMP Match. (Directive to Take Action)

if this is accepted, then it does not mean that the AMA supports a combined match - just that they are recomending that NRMP study the issue. NRMP (and the AOA) are the entities that will have ultimate decision power on the issue.

 

[jgrady]

After reading the anti-combined match position the AOA is championing I feel like I'm in a cult. I'm soooo tired of this "protect our turf" BS. The AOA has failed DO students West of the Mississippi and they insanely believe that trapping students into an early DO match is going to protect their federally funded residency slots.

All I can say is that I'm pro DO, but very anti-AOA. I refuse to support an organization that desires to coerce students into a philosophy that puts protecting the DO 'mystique' above students becoming the best healers they can be.

Anyone else feel like they've lost touch with the top priority - to be the best doctors (not OMS, DO, MD, what-have-you) we can be? That's why I'm sacrificing so much to go to AZCOM and it's what I believe the Feds (who are supporting my education) and the public want from their physicians.

Thanks for putting up with my venting...

 

[Ice-1]

Yeah, Grady, I read the thing and basically agree with your position. It certainly appears that the AOA is doing its level best to alienate as many students as it can. If that organization wishes to exist into the next generation of doctors it should rethink its long term strategy, which appears to consist mostly of an attempt to maintain the status quo.

 

[TCOM-2006]

Yeah, Grady, I read the thing and basically agree with your position. It certainly appears that the AOA is doing its level best to alienate as many students as it can. If that organization wishes to exist into the next generation of doctors it should rethink its long term strategy, which appears to consist mostly of an attempt to maintain the status quo.

i definitely understand and share the frustration - but would advise involvement in the aoa as the solution. changing the culture of the aoa will be difficult task that will take many years - but it will be impossible if we all just throw up our hands and walk away. i know it's hard to be optimistic sometimes - and we all need to vent - but i just want to spread a little optimism and hope 🙂

 

[DrMom]

I'm going to un-sticky this thread now. 🙂

 

[Ice-1]

Yesterday, before taking a 4th year didactics exam our Dean came in to talk to our class. He stated that there was no way that the AOA was going to allow any changes in the match system for our class because the 5 or so states with the largest DO residencies (Michigan. Florida, etc) had enough votes to block the process for now. However, he stated that the next classes might have a better shot at getting some change if the students keep working at it. So all of you MSIIIs and below should keep the pressure on if this is what you want.

 

[Khirurg]

I have posted this before the official talk started all over the magazines and DO schools regarding a combined match. I said that it will not happen, because there is money involved. AOA doesn't have the best interests of osteopathic physicians in mind, they have their own financial interests that they are protecting.
George Thomas expressed fear of what is going to happen, that AOA match will be the safety net. It will for some people, that is the reason it is asked for. However, it is not the vast majority of people anyway. In the article he says that according to the survey combined match would benefit only 2.5% or so. (i am not even going to mention that questions in the suvey were asked in the way that didn't clarify anything, but try to prove their point). But even so. What is he worried about? That DO residencies will lose 2.5% of the residents.
My problem is the following. A huge number of DO residencies are 'of lesser quality' programs. I mean why else would students seek allopathic spots. DO profession is relatively young, so they took whatever was left after ACGME or whoever decides where to have their program. So if DO students are able to receive better training elsewhere, and therefore become better physicians how is it going to undermine osteopathic profession? if anything the reputation will be better. AOA however keeps opening residencies that are not on level with teaching programs and they are upset when people look at these spots as safety net?
The only way to get better is to compete. You have to be better than your competitor to attract the customers. It sucks to be losing the competition, but it should make youu try harder, not rob customers of choice. And you know what? If they close down some of these osteo programs that can't get enough people to fill the spots, osteopathic profession will only benefit from it.
Sorry for the long rant.