Pharm.D./MBA vs. PGY2 for administration positions

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g40631

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What is your opinion? For hospital/pharmacy management or administration, does a person with a PharmD/MBA without a residency stand up well against a person who completes a PGY2? I'm assuming it would be advantageous for the person with the MBA to have some hospital staffing experience...
 
g40631 said:
What is your opinion? For hospital/pharmacy management or administration, does a person with a PharmD/MBA without a residency stand up well against a person who completes a PGY2? I'm assuming it would be advantageous for the person with the MBA to have some hospital staffing experience...
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I think some staffing experience is going to be needed regardless. It's hard to imagine either of those options being given a DoP job at the ripe age of 26;however, I think both of those options will give a good candidate the ability to be in management as one continues his/her career.
 
g40631 said:
What is your opinion? For hospital/pharmacy management or administration, does a person with a PharmD/MBA without a residency stand up well against a person who completes a PGY2? I'm assuming it would be advantageous for the person with the MBA to have some hospital staffing experience...
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For hospital administration, you'd need MHA. For pharmacy adminsitration, MBA along with work experience will help. It's just that how do you get supervisor type of pharmacy work experience? Residency.

PharmD - Residency + MBA will put you ahead of other applicants. Or, PGY2 in admin.

I can tell you PGY2 programs are now cranking out some seriously competent pharmacists.
 
in the pharmacy world, just remember, residency > mba any day of the week
 
lorain said:
in the pharmacy world, just remember, residency > mba any day of the week
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I disagree...I am on rotation right now, and none of the directors in all the hospitals I rotated at did a residency. They all have MBA or MHA.
 
taken2 said:
I disagree...I am on rotation right now, and none of the directors in all the hospitals I rotated at did a residency. They all have MBA or MHA.
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nowadays there are too many pharm schools cranking out dual pharmD/MBAs. I'm assuming the directors have been around for awhile.
 
MBA is a degree

PGY-2 residency is a certificate

id take the MBA over the PGY-2 any day of the week! at least you can take the business understandings from the MBA to be used elsewhere especially if you leave pharmacy
 
PharmaTope said:
MBA is a degree

PGY-2 residency is a certificate

id take the MBA over the PGY-2 any day of the week! at least you can take the business understandings from the MBA to be used elsewhere especially if you leave pharmacy
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Great logic, you should major in underwater basket weaving from Phoenix university too, but only if the tuition is > $500K/semester.

MBA from a pharmacy school is pretty worthless outside of the pharmacy profession, and no quality school offering an MBA will take some chump straight out of pharmacy school with no real experience.
 
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p-rog said:
Great logic, you should major in underwater basket weaving from Phoenix university too, but only if the tuition is > $500K/semester.

MBA from a pharmacy school is pretty worthless outside of the pharmacy profession, and no quality school offering an MBA will take some chump straight out of pharmacy school with no real experience.
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Really?
 
p-rog said:
nowadays there are too many pharm schools cranking out dual pharmD/MBAs. I'm assuming the directors have been around for awhile.
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They all have extensive work experience. None of them did the dual degree thing. My first preceptor didn't even have a pharm D, she has B.Sc in Pharmacy and went back to school 10 years later to get a Masters in Health Administration.
 
What about obtaining a MBA from a completely seperate degree program? aka not a joint Pharm.D./MBA degree but earning it from a well respected University (not necessarily top tier).

I would imagine an MBA would be more beneficial then residency for attempting to get into industry/the healthcare corporate world.
 
ill be honest im an undergrad finishing up my senior year and was admitted to UFlorida Pharmacy C/O 2015 and I was looking at their website for the MBA/PharmD Program and they gave some details....

it seems like you would do two years of Pharm curriculum through the Pharm school then the third year would be exclusively business classes through the UF Business school. You would also be required to do an MBA or Business clerkship (internship) over the summer and also it seems for a bit during the fourth and fifth years. It also states that those students who are interested in it should consult heavily with the advisor for the program. sooo it seems as though the program is available though heavily demanding but also seems like it would require the support of the administration of the university in order to get the position and experience you would need to get a good residency.....as stated above you can get all the degrees you want its no excuse for residency (experience)....

thoughts?
 
p-rog said:
MBA from a pharmacy school is pretty worthless outside of the pharmacy profession, and no quality school offering an MBA will take some chump straight out of pharmacy school with no real experience.
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Agree...a PGY2 in admin will provide you with real world experience. There are dual admin residency/MBA programs. That seems like a better way to go.
 
Dual admin residency/MS...I haven't seen any dual admin residency/MBA...please if you know any, could you tell me...because i'm very interested in doing an MBA
KARM12 said:
Agree...a PGY2 in admin will provide you with real world experience. There are dual admin residency/MBA programs. That seems like a better way to go.
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All of the directors that I know did not do a residency. They're all old men with pharmacy and business degrees.
 
If the pharmacist, at the small hospital where I work PRN, ever leaves, I would apply for the job no questions asked. She's the staff pharmacist, clinical pharmacist, and director of pharmacy!
 
p-rog said:
MBA from a pharmacy school is pretty worthless outside of the pharmacy profession, and no quality school offering an MBA will take some chump straight out of pharmacy school with no real experience.
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ummm... when you get a MBA, u take classes at the business school with other MBA students, not pharmacy, but yes you do need experience to get a job at management, doesn't matter what you are doing... 😎
 
Deja said:
ummm... when you get a MBA, u take classes at the business school with other MBA students, not pharmacy, but yes you do need experience to get a job at management, doesn't matter what you are doing... 😎
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True you do take the classes at a business school...just usually not a very good business school. MBA really is a dime a dozen degree now.
 
p-rog said:
True you do take the classes at a business school...just usually not a very good business school. MBA really is a dime a dozen degree now.
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UF-COP offers a Pharm D./ MBA program and their school of business is hardly what i would call "not a very good business school" ...
 
p-rog said:
True you do take the classes at a business school...just usually not a very good business school. MBA really is a dime a dozen degree now.
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Just like Manonthemoon said, it all depends on which school you are going to, some schools have good pharmacy and MBA programs, so you can't really say people who do the Pharm/MBA are useless
 
Deja said:
Just like Manonthemoon said, it all depends on which school you are going to, some schools have good pharmacy and MBA programs, so you can't really say people who do the Pharm/MBA are useless
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I didn't say people who do the pharm/MBA are useless. Obviously, they are useful people. 🙂 What I said was than an MBA degree from a dual pharmD/MBA program without any real-world work experience is worthless. And just like you, I also was thinking about UF's program when I said it's usually not a very good business school. There are a few exceptions, UF being the main one I can think of.
 
Listen, if you chumps want to invest the extra tuition into an MBA from your ****ty school, be my guests. Just when you finish, please come back and let me know how sucessful you were in landing a DOP position straight out of school when your competition is someone who completed a PGY-2/MS degree in hospital administration or someone who's been practicing pharmacy for a 5-20 years.
 
Go Tiger!
 
p-rog said:
Listen, if you chumps want to invest the extra tuition into an MBA from your ****ty school, be my guests. Just when you finish, please come back and let me know how sucessful you were in landing a DOP position straight out of school when your competition is someone who completed a PGY-2/MS degree in hospital administration or someone who's been practicing pharmacy for a 5-20 years.
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yea Ive said this for a while

in the pharmacy world, residency > generic MBA, but work experience beats anything (residency, degree, etc....but its hard to get that relevant work experience starting out, hence people do residency).

but DOP is a tough job, it is a very demanding yet thankless job

however, if one ventures outside the healthcare world, I think longterm the MBA may be more beneficial (but if one is venturing out the healthcare world, then what was the point in investing 100k for pharm degree?)
 
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p-rog said:
I didn't say people who do the pharm/MBA are useless. Obviously, they are useful people. 🙂 What I said was than an MBA degree from a dual pharmD/MBA program without any real-world work experience is worthless. And just like you, I also was thinking about UF's program when I said it's usually not a very good business school. There are a few exceptions, UF being the main one I can think of.
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ok i get what u r trying to say now... still, like i said, you need real work experience regardless what you do if you want to be in management! I highly doubt anyone is going to hire someone for a management position straight out of residency. so if some one had a MBA (which only take a year if you do the dual program vs. 2 yrs for just MBA students) and work experience, i would think they'll have an advantage 😎
 
Deja said:
ok i get what u r trying to say now... still, like i said, you need real work experience regardless what you do if you want to be in management! I highly doubt anyone is going to hire someone for a management position straight out of residency. so if some one had a MBA (which only take a year if you do the dual program vs. 2 yrs for just MBA students) and work experience, i would think they'll have an advantage 😎
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i think the pgy2/ms program grads are going straight to DOP spots after they finish that 2 year program

i like having the mba, i think its a good degree to have since its flexible, but in the pharmacy world, residency trumps mba
 
lorain said:
i think the pgy2/ms program grads are going straight to DOP spots after they finish that 2 year program
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Exactly...apples and oranges
 
lorain said:
i think the pgy2/ms program grads are going straight to DOP spots after they finish that 2 year program

i like having the mba, i think its a good degree to have since its flexible, but in the pharmacy world, residency trumps mba
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Luck > experience > ... MBA > residency > new grad

As of right now, a residency will help you get a clinical position, not a job in management.

And since there are only a couple of programs (as far as I know) that offer a PGY2 in pharmacy administration, the MBA wins.

Obtaining a PGY2 pharmacy administration residency is just another example of what's pie in the sky, ie an unrealistic expectation.
 
PharmDstudent said:
Luck > experience > ... MBA > residency > new grad

As of right now, a residency will help you get a clinical position, not a job in management.

And since there are only a couple of programs (as far as I know) that offer a PGY2 in pharmacy administration, the MBA wins.

Obtaining a PGY2 pharmacy administration residency is just another example of what's pie in the sky, ie an unrealistic expectation.
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If a PGY2 in pharmacy administration is rare, then wouldn't that make it more valuable than an MBA? I see your point that it might not be realistic to plan on getting into the residency, but if anything that makes it even more preferable if you do manage to pull it off, no?
 
R2pharmD2 said:
If a PGY2 in pharmacy administration is rare, then wouldn't that make it more valuable than an MBA? I see your point that it might not be realistic to plan on getting into the residency, but if anything that makes it even more preferable if you do manage to pull it off, no?
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I didn't even use it in the comparison. That's how unrealistic I think it is as an option. More competitive than an MBA? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on locale, reputation of the business school/PGY2 residency program, etc.

And as a side note, just because something is rare doesn't necessarily make it more valuable than something that's more common.
 
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I would like to do a survey of dual PharmD/MBA grads and see what percentage of them have landed management position straight out of school. I would also like to get the same statistic for PGY-2/MS admin grads and compare the results. I already know the answer, but I wish I had the numbers.
 
PharmDstudent said:
I didn't even use it in the comparison. That's how unrealistic I think it is as an option. More competitive than an MBA? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on locale, reputation of the business school/PGY2 residency program, etc.

And as a side note, just because something is rare doesn't necessarily make it more valuable than something that's more common.
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Sorry, I must have misunderstood. I assumed when you said residency you meant PGY2. You're probably right that it's not as simple as PGY2>MBA or vice versa, but as you mentioned, experience is second only to luck in helping land positions. I'd still think that experience gained during a PGY2 would trump the MBA most of the time, but I don't exactly have first hand experience with the issue either.

The "rare" factor of a management PGY2 would, if nothing else, differentiate your app from the rest of the stack I imagine. I'd rather be the candidate with something unique to offer, even though lacking an MBA might close some doors where it's a de facto requirement.

I don't even start pharmacy school until this fall though, so if you (or anyone else with experience) needs to straighten me out, feel free to do so :laugh:
 
R2pharmD2 said:
Sorry, I must have misunderstood. I assumed when you said residency you meant PGY2. You're probably right that it's not as simple as PGY2>MBA or vice versa, but as you mentioned, experience is second only to luck in helping land positions. I'd still think that experience gained during a PGY2 would trump the MBA most of the time, but I don't exactly have first hand experience with the issue either.

The "rare" factor of a management PGY2 would, if nothing else, differentiate your app from the rest of the stack I imagine. I'd rather be the candidate with something unique to offer, even though lacking an MBA might close some doors where it's a de facto requirement.

I don't even start pharmacy school until this fall though, so if you (or anyone else with experience) needs to straighten me out, feel free to do so :laugh:
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The number of programs has increased since I looked into this route in 2006. On ASHP's website, I counted 22 PGY2/MS and 24 PGY2 programs in Health System Pharmacy Practice Administration.
link
If each program took 1.5 students, that would be ~69 PGY2 24 month long spots available.

Having "flamethrower" under your qualifications would differentiate your app from others, too. :laugh:
 
i mean ill be honest i looked into a few of them and there are a few programs for PGY2 in the field that a Pharm D/MBA would be looking into ..... the problem is that most of these have like one spot for the resident every year which makes it insanely competitive. I would think that having an MBA right with your Pharm D. degree before you start PGY1 would help in that you could apply for your PGY2 right after PGY1 and not have to waste anytime.... IDK i guess i was thinking in my head something like 5 years for Pharm D/MBA, then PGY1, PGY2 (For the managed one or the other one i cant remember it but there were 2 specialties in PGY2 which really stick out) and then you would have a great residency (one residency said that you would be shadowing directly under the director of pharmacy for the hospital) and a pharm d and MBA after roughly 5 years of schooling and 2 years of residency....

Having an MBA already out of pharm school should make you pretty competitive for your PGY2 residency, although your PGY1 residency would play a big part in PGY2 residency as well....again i wont be starting pharm school until this fall at UF-gainesville so if anyone has anything else they would like to add please feel free!!!
 
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p-rog said:
I would like to do a survey of dual PharmD/MBA grads and see what percentage of them have landed management position straight out of school. I would also like to get the same statistic for PGY-2/MS admin grads and compare the results. I already know the answer, but I wish I had the numbers.
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Not sure where these people fit in but I know of two PGY-2/MBA admin grads that took Assistant Director positions after finishing.
 
Having an MBA would probably make you more competitive for those admin residencies, which is worth considering. The OP was asking about having one or the other though, which would be better.
 
p-rog said:
Having an MBA would probably make you more competitive for those admin residencies, which is worth considering. The OP was asking about having one or the other though, which would be better.
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The examples I was talking about are admin residencies where you get an MBA instead of an MS.
 
VeraShield said:
The examples I was talking about are admin residencies where you get an MBA instead of an MS.
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yeah I know. I see those are basically the same thing as the PGY-2/MS admin programs. But someone else was talking about using an MBA to help you get into one of those PGY-2 admin residencies.
 
PharmDstudent said:
The number of programs has increased since I looked into this route in 2006. On ASHP's website, I counted 22 PGY2/MS and 24 PGY2 programs in Health System Pharmacy Practice Administration.
link
If each program took 1.5 students, that would be ~69 PGY2 24 month long spots available.

Having "flamethrower" under your qualifications would differentiate your app from others, too. :laugh:
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Thanks for the info!

And you never know when a good flamethrower might come in handy :laugh:
 
R2pharmD2 said:
Thanks for the info!

And you never know when a good flamethrower might come in handy :laugh:
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You're welcome!

I really enjoyed talking to the program director for one of the very first programs, Aura Health or something like that. He even knew about about a hospital that I had worked at!
 
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Id rather finish my PharmD, work, and get my job to pay for my MBA classes at night.

Getting the MBA is mostly about making the connections....Not sure how to do that in a joint program.
 
My friend is doing his PGY-2 admin residency/MS in pharmacotherapy and his MBA. He's doing the executive MBA program that meets once a week.

And whoever said they hire PGY-2s right off the bat as DOP is wrong...We had the DOP/admin residency director of a major hospital come talk to us about the residency and she said, "If you think you'll be ready to be a DOP right after your residency, you are wrong. You still need experience"
 
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