Pharmacist fired after defending store

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nafcillin

nafcillin

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In Benton Township, Michigan, two armed robbers wearing masks burst into a near-deserted Walgreens at 4:30 a.m. To pharmacist Jeremy Hoven, it was a prescription for trouble. So he filled it with hot lead.
Drawing his own gun, he fired at the attackers and drove them off, saving not just himself but two Walgreens co-workers as well as the pharmacy's valuable prescription drugs.

By way of saying thanks, Walgreens fired him last week.
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http://abcnews.go.com/Business/fire...n-pharmacist-filled-robbers/story?id=13705438

Discuss.
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No, walgreen did not want its pharmacist to fire bullets. It is bad business. My principal is let them take what they want, then report police.
 
5minutes said:
No, walgreen did not want its pharmacist to fire bullets. It is bad business. My principal is let them take what they want, then report police.
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Even a person's life?
 
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Regardless of Walgreen's policies on how to act during a robbery, everyone is entitled to the second amendment, especially if they feel their life in endangered.
 
crazybob said:
Even a person's life?
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Do you think having a gun is safer than not? Just asking for your opinion.

megandupe said:
Regardless of Walgreen's policies on how to act during a robbery, everyone is entitled to the second amendment, especially if they feel their life in endangered.
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Um, no. Your employer is well within their rights to forbid firearms on the premises. It's actually been the policy everywhere I have worked to cooperate with robbers and not allow firearms or weapons of any sort.
 
I don't know about firing the pharmacist, but I would like to see more of this kind of reporting:

... it was a prescription for trouble. So he filled it with hot lead.
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That line pretty much made my day.
 
owlegrad said:
Do you think having a gun is safer than not? Just asking for your opinion.
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I think having a gun is safer. If there are enough policies in effect, then you could be allowed to use it if and only if a robbery (with weapons) was taking place, and the cops could not get there in time.

There's more I can say, but I'd rather PM you if you want to talk about it.
 
I think what many of you are missing is that this story is ACTUALLY about over saturation, not responsible gun ownership:

...the job market for pharmacists isn't good right now. The big drug chains, he said, have stopped expanding. Demand for pharmacists is down from what it was 10 years ago. He's not optimistic about finding another job with the same benefits.
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owlegrad said:
I think what many of you are missing is that this story is ACTUALLY about over saturation, not responsible gun ownership:
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If he can't work for walgreen, CVS will not accept him because his name is in the record. I think he may need to find jobs besides retail.
 
The point of this article is that WE ARE ONE BADASS profession, this should have been posted in the venting about mds thread, we kick their ass with our master sniper skills. :smuggrin::laugh:
 
5minutes said:
If he can't work for walgreen, CVS will not accept him because his name is in the record. I think he may need to find jobs besides retail.
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If I had an independent, I'd hire him man... Independents always get robbed, this man knows how to handle his business.
 
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Good post about this story on The Redheaded Pharmacist's blog: http://www.theredheadedpharmacist.com/?p=3861

Excerpt:
It is important to note some details that were mentioned in the news article from The Herald-Palladium. Apparently, there was a previous robbery at this individual pharmacy and employees had raised safety concerns to Walgreens management. Management didn’t take any additional security steps to ensure the safety of the employees after that initial incident. Therefore the staff at that store feared for their safety. And that was a contributing factor to Hoven violating policy and carrying a weapon at that Walgreens.

It is also important to note that Hoven’s first instinct was to try and call 911 during the initial events that night in the pharmacy. But he explained that the masked gunmen quickly jumped the counter and did have a weapon visible before the 911 call could be placed. Hoven had no choice but to pull his weapon and fire upon the robbers as they quickly advanced on him. The masked assailants quickly left the scene after the shots and no employee was hurt in the incident although it is believed one of the criminals might have been injured.

It is also important to know that the police have investigated the incident and defended Hoven’s right to use force to stop the attempted robbery. He was cornered and facing armed criminals and had no choice but to pull his weapon in self defense. Hoven also had a valid concealed carry permit on him at the time of the incident.
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It's extremely sad that management did nothing to make the store any safer, making employees have to fend for themselves then get canned because of it.
 
cheburashka said:
The point of this article is that WE ARE ONE BADASS profession, this should have been posted in the venting about mds thread, we kick their ass with our master sniper skills. :smuggrin::laugh:
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He was actually a very poor sniper I guess, considering he didn't hit anyone.
 
too bad he didn't hit the robber. i have a CWP but i've never carried my gun into my store. i've been robbed once. too bad these corporations won't let us defend ourselves. their greed is what keeps these stores open 24 hours in the first place. they should at least attempt to make it a safe working environment by having a police officer there. the 24 hour bilo near my work has an armed guard in it after 9 pm.
 
We Michiganders are serious about our gun rights. There's no reason he should have been fired, especially with the additional info that says that there were safety concerns at the store. He had valid reasons to be carrying.

Fun tidbit: open carry is completely legal in the state.
 
Carboxide said:
We Michiganders are serious about our gun rights. There's no reason he should have been fired, especially with the additional info that says that there were safety concerns at the store. He had valid reasons to be carrying.

Fun tidbit: open carry is completely legal in the state.
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I think open carry is a better policy for guns than concealed carry. If someone knows you have a gun, they are less likely to attempt something. I'd walk around town with an AK-47 on my back and a M1911 on my hip.
 
Pharmacist fired after defending store is not accurate. It should be

Pharmacist fired after:


VIOLATING COMPANY POLICY
​
 
Old Timer said:
Pharmacist fired after defending store is not accurate. It should be

Pharmacist fired after:


VIOLATING COMPANY POLICY
​
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Company policies are meaningless.

What is pertinent are Walgreens' property rights.
 
I really tried to raise the issue of workplace safety with my post about this robbery attempt although I did also write it to defend the actions of the pharmacist involved. To me the real key to this story was the fact that safety concerns were raised at this very pharmacy after a previous robbery and Walgreens management didn't take any additional security or safety measures to protect the employees at that pharmacy. To me that is unacceptable.

As for open carry, I do think that is an option for people but the problem with that is there is a stigma with some members of the general public over firearms in general. I am not critical of anyone who chooses to open carry because they have that right but some people are nervous when they see something visible and you don't want to create panic.

And thanks wezvidz for mentioning my post. I tried to highlight the main points of the incident and throw in my 2 cents of commentary (if it is even worth that). I hope this pharmacist finds another job soon. I think a story like this should really make us all step back and look at safety issues and ask ourselves if we could be doing more at work to ensure employee safety. I'm just thankful no one was hurt in this incident and we can all use it as a learning experience.
 
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megandupe said:
Regardless of Walgreen's policies on how to act during a robbery, everyone is entitled to the second amendment, especially if they feel their life in endangered.
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Sure you're entitled to protect yourself; unfortunately, you're not entitled to a job. I'm pretty sure every retail chain does not want any of their employees carrying, too much liability and bad press (i mean this is obviously what any large corporate admin/manager would say). Not only that, but management would never go out of their way to provide extra security or precautions other than emails to "stay vigilant"...robberies, whatever, they have insurance for that. But i'm sure if you mention shrink they'll be on it in no time...

I just hope that he can find a pro-gun independent to work for. And lets hope the state BoP or others doesn't try to sanction him or anything...even though it might be totally legal, they could try to crucify him for something else, like al capone and tax evasion.
 
Old Timer said:
Pharmacist fired after defending store is not accurate. It should be

Pharmacist fired after:


VIOLATING COMPANY POLICY​
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Wow, you really are a company drone! His actions may have been against company policy, but whoever wrote the policies, has probably never had their life or other lives in danger. Yes, you have rules in place at work but sometimes there are exceptions, i.e. TWO ARMED ROBBERS WITHIN 5 FEET OF YOU! I bet you would be singing a different tune if you were held at gunpoint.
 
tbone444 said:
Wow, you really are a company drone! His actions may have been against company policy, but whoever wrote the policies, has probably never had their life or other lives in danger. Yes, you have rules in place at work but sometimes there are exceptions, i.e. TWO ARMED ROBBERS WITHIN 5 FEET OF YOU! I bet you would be singing a different tune if you were held at gunpoint.
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First of all, I am not a company drone. I know the rules and I follow them. When a jerk-off wants to rob a drug store and they go all the way to the back of the store, where the pharmacy is, they want drugs. If they wanted cash, they would hit the front registers and scram. They don't want to hurt anybody. My employers is fully insured and they want me to give the criminal what they want. It's a simple business transaction. They want the product and I want to give it to them.

And yes, I have had a gun pointed at me. I complied with the request and gave him what he wanted. I kept my kids (techs & students) safe and away from the loser and got him out of there as quickly as I could.

It's prudent to cooperate. It's not my money and & the safety of my staff is my first concern.

It is, in my view, not a wise idea to attempt to get into a gun battle especially if you are out numbered and with the possibility the criminals could be high. Too much chance for collateral damage. Risk that to protect property, no way....
 
SuperDuperSuper said:
Company policies are meaningless.

What is pertinent are Walgreens' property rights.
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Who gives a **** about property. Human life is more valuable than property. I want to get the a-holes what they and and get them on their way ASAP so none of my staff gets hurt. In a business environment you MAY NOT use deadly force to protect property, one to protect life.
 
Here's a little irony. Army sergeant has been honored for foiling a bank robbery at Bank of America in Serasota, Fl while on vacation with his family. I guess if he was an employee of the bank, he would have broken policy and been fired.
 
Old Timer said:
First of all, I am not a company drone. I know the rules and I follow them. When a jerk-off wants to rob a drug store and they go all the way to the back of the store, where the pharmacy is, they want drugs. If they wanted cash, they would hit the front registers and scram. They don't want to hurt anybody. My employers is fully insured and they want me to give the criminal what they want. It's a simple business transaction. They want the product and I want to give it to them.

And yes, I have had a gun pointed at me. I complied with the request and gave him what he wanted. I kept my kids (techs & students) safe and away from the loser and got him out of there as quickly as I could.

It's prudent to cooperate. It's not my money and & the safety of my staff is my first concern.

It is, in my view, not a wise idea to attempt to get into a gun battle especially if you are out numbered and with the possibility the criminals could be high. Too much chance for collateral damage. Risk that to protect property, no way....
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How do you know that they don't want to hurt anyone? I don't know about you, but when I have a gun pointed at me, I have two choices; kill or be killed.
 
tbone444 said:
How do you know that they don't want to hurt anyone? I don't know about you, but when I have a gun pointed at me, I have two choices; kill or be killed.
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It sounds to me that you've seen one too many John Wayne or Clint Eastwood movies. Armed robbery rarely leads to murder and the most sure fire way of escalating the situation is to pull a pistol. Since they already have a gun pointed on you, your already at a disadvantage and your now endangering the lives of your coworkers and customers. As a healthcare provider, don't you value them more than some pills or money?
 
Mosep said:
It sounds to me that you've seen one too many John Wayne or Clint Eastwood movies. Armed robbery rarely leads to murder and the most sure fire way of escalating the situation is to pull a pistol. Since they already have a gun pointed on you, your already at a disadvantage and your now endangering the lives of your coworkers and customers. As a healthcare provider, don't you value them more than some pills or money?
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My life and the lives of my coworkers and customers would are already endangered by the armed robbers. About the kill or be killed statement, I was just trying to make a point to oldtimer. The pharmacist didn't shoot the robbers, he was just trying to scare them and he did. The pharmacist had a gun permit and knew what he was doing. This whole thing probably would not have happened if Walgreens had a security guard, which should be mandatory for a pharmacy opened all night. But Walgreens probably decided they could save a few extra dollars by not having one.
 
tbone444 said:
My life and the lives of my coworkers and customers would are already endangered by the armed robbers. About the kill or be killed statement, I was just trying to make a point to oldtimer. The pharmacist didn't shoot the robbers, he was just trying to scare them and he did. The pharmacist had a gun permit and knew what he was doing. This whole thing probably would not have happened if Walgreens had a security guard, which should be mandatory for a pharmacy opened all night. But Walgreens probably decided they could save a few extra dollars by not having one.
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The Walgreens I've been to at night had a cop who was by the front door past midnight.
 
Old Timer said:
My employers is fully insured and they want me to give the criminal what they want. It's a simple business transaction. They want the product and I want to give it to them.
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Do you think this sort of philosophy contributes to the increasing number of pharmacy robberies? Almost seems like the store doesn't care either way. "Oh well, it's insured, just give it to them." Next time a junkie gets a "refill too soon" all they have to do is pull a gun and then they can get their refill.

I completely agree with you about not wanting to endanger your staff, don't get me wrong. Still, I think that if news headlines across the nation were about robbers getting shot by pharmacists, less people would attempt it.
 
A professor at my school told us about how he started providing free coffee and donuts to police officers at his pharmacy.

For the cost of a few dozen batches of donuts, and coffee, he gets frequent security presence, and a good deterrent, since the police might show up at anytime for donuts.
 
VeraShield said:
A professor at my school told us about how he started providing free coffee and donuts to police officers at his pharmacy.

For the cost of a few dozen batches of donuts, and coffee, he gets frequent security presence, and a good deterrent, since the police might show up at anytime for donuts.
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I've read that somewhere. Have you posted this on SDN before?

Do the cops also park out in the front lot of the store?
 
tbone444 said:
How do you know that they don't want to hurt anyone? I don't know about you, but when I have a gun pointed at me, I have two choices; kill or be killed.
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Because these people are businessmen. They are just picking up their inventory. They don't want to go to jail for murder.
 
Old Timer said:
Because these people are businessmen. They are just picking up their inventory. They don't want to go to jail for murder.
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It depends... It could be a high dope head, who doesn't know what their doing. They could shoot you accidentally... You never know. The pharmacy down the street, a high meth head jumped the counter wanting drugs and was actually trying to slash pharmacist with knife as he ran away.

I think most people know that if they use their gun at a chain they are going to be fired. That pharmacist had to know that, but he did what he thought he had to do. Even if they fired first and he shot and killed them and was a true hero, he still would have been fired.

Unfortunately old timer is right, corporate policy state no guns, and the pharmacist knew he would be fired if he ever used it. am I glad he did what he did? Yes, I wish he killed them.
 
This is my first post in this forum so please forgive me if I do or say something wrong headed. I have been through five armed robberies over the years and I survived. You comply when you have to comply and resist when you have to resist. I am in agreement with Old Timer on most of his thoughts but these people are not businessmen, they are armed thugs. You can not know what they are thinking. I do not care about the money or drugs they may take I only care about the safety of my employees, the customers, and myself. If I feel that these thugs are going to harm myself or any of my employees or customers I will resist with whatever force I deem is necessary.
I have know two pharmacists who complied with the robbers demands completely and one was shot and the other was killed despite their complete cooperation and lack of resistance.
The pharmacist at Walgreens was fired for having a firearm on the job in violation of company policy but at least he is still alive. Was he right in doing what he did? Know one can know unless they were there.

Best Regards
Kirson01
 
He shouldn't have been fired. I will gladly shoot someone if they threaten my safety, or the safety of those around me. Screw policy, surviving comes first.
 
I think that companies just consider theft loss a part of doing business and they insure everything and don't care what is taken in the end. But that doesn't do the employees any good if their own life is in danger because an employer doesn't provide ample security and just has a "comply with any robbers" policy.

I would be curious to see some data from RxPatrol (or anyone else with pharmacy robbery data) on the robberies at pharmacies reported to them over the last several years. I think a pattern develops if you look at the profile of the offenders doing these crimes. Typically, these crimes are committed by young (20s) white males who are often addicted to pain medications or other narcotics. They are there because they need their next fix so badly they are willing to steal for it or they simply want to make a buck by stealing drugs and re-selling them. And if they are willing to walk into a drugstore and rob it you better believe (and assume) that they are capable of hurting someone to get what they want even if that employee at the store they rob complies with their demands.

I remember years ago vacationing in Baltimore, MD. I walked into an independent pharmacy downtown to buy some PSE for a cold I had at the time. I walked back to the pharmacy and talked with the owner/pharmacist for a minute because I always like to talk with other pharmacists if they aren't busy. As I did, I noticed guns all over the pharmacy area in shoulder holsters etc in plain view of any customer. They were also in a glass case right under the pick up area at the pharmacy counter.

This pharmacist said he always carries at work and encourages all his employees to carry as well. He said that he had to screen his potential employees a little more than the average pharmacy (obviously) but that otherwise it was business as usual at that location. The pharmacy had enough pistols to be a pawn shop! But the key point is that he had been at that location for years and said quote "we haven't had any problems with robberies here!" LOL, yeah I bet. The threat of being shot by an employee will make many criminals stop and think twice!

I'm not advocating a pharmacy becoming an armed fortress. I don't think all pharmacists and pharmacy employees are capable or willing to carry firearms for protection. That's ok. But I don't think the "comply and give them what they want" policy is the safest choice for employees when companies don't first address proper security at the store level. It isn't the big company's life that is being gambled with at the time a robber comes through the door with a gun.

We have to wake up as a nation and realize that there is danger all around us. Criminals are armed and don't care about other people's right to live and prosper. And if you are in a situation where your life is in danger you should have the right to defend yourself by any means necessary. I will never fault an individual for defending their life in the face of imminent danger no matter how many corporate policies they are breaking at the time they are defending themselves.

And don't be naive enough to think that a pharmacist or other employee is pulling a weapon in a situation like this to be a hero or to save some stupid bottles of pills. This isn't a Clint Eastwood syndrome at play here. Nobody goes into work for a shift and thinks "I am going to try and be a hero today in the face of danger." They are simply doing their jobs and then are placed in a situation where they are forced into doing something simply to save their life and the lives of anyone else in the pharmacy. These kinds of actions are about survival and nothing else. It's just a shame that the act of defending yourself to survive a robbery somehow has become a violation of corporate policy.
 
The Pharmacist did violate company policy. Big whoop. He potentially saved the lives of himself, his coworkers, his patients and saved Walgreens thousands of dollars.

Is Walgreens really going to lose customers over this? I think they're more likely to lose customers for firing the pharmacist instead of defending his Second Amendment rights.
 
Even though the policy is to not resist and give them what they want, this is a lot easier said than done. When we are threatened, our natural instinct is to "fight or flight." It's easy to play monday morning quarterback, pointing out what he should and shouldn't have done, but the pharmacist only had a few seconds to react
 
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