Pharmacist's applying to Medical School?

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FYI..I was Pre-Pharmacy once in undergrad then decided to go to Med School.

Why do pharmDs like to bash MDs? (Player hating??) We're not trained the same way, so don't expect us to know every little detail of every med.I have the highest regards for the pharmacists here at my residency. They always help me out with my drips in the OR.(because I know my limitations) As for Pharmacists shelling out meds on their own..... again this may be beyond your limitations.

Dr. Feelgood, Anesthesiology Resident

oh about pay.... I won't take any offers under $200,000 a year.

Average salary....$250K in big cities, $350-400K in small town USA

Not that money really matters....
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That was a condescending ass? Eeek. You're gonna have it rough dealing with the real condescending ass doctors.

I actually agree with him regarding the pharmacy students bashing doctors pharmaceutical knowledge. I don't get it. I know some impressive pharmacists who would run cirlces around every doctor's drug knowlege, but they are the minority. Most pharmacist's I know I wouldn't want within 10 feet of choosing which medication to use. No doctor can get away with what 80% of the pharmacist's knowledge becomes. Even pharmacist's coming right out of school. The way pharmacy school is set up now, there is no way we should take over prescribing medications. Add a 2 year residency, then maybe. Maybe.

I've got my flak jacket on. Let the pummeling begin.
 
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Samoa said:
So what happens when she sees something abnormal?
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Nothing abnormal happened while I was there and I didn't think to ask what their procedure is when something is wrong. Sorry. :(
 
Nah, I agree with you about the residency issue. Most physicians learn drug therapy on the job, too. But the range of drugs they need to know about thoroughly is much smaller, so it's not quite the same feat of memory as it would be if they had such an encyclopedic knowledge of EVERY drug available in the US. Pharmacists, however, have to have some knowledge about all of them. How large or small that piece of knowledge is depends on their level of practice.
 
Someone discussing "playa hattin" and then talking about how much money they hope to make to me is being an ass. "I'm so cool I won't take less than 200k a year". Good for you, buddy. No need to come to a message board and look your nose down at others and act like you're all that.

Don't worry about me dealing with asses. I think it's part of the medical school curriculum to ignore arrogant POS's. :)

edited b/c maybe I'm being the ass here
 
Pir8DeacDoc said:
Someone discussing "playa hattin" and then talking about how much money they hope to make to me is being an ass. "I'm so cool I won't take less than 200k a year". Good for you, buddy. No need to come to a message board and look your nose down at others and act like you're all that. He's got to make himself feel good here because CRNA's do 96% of his job.

Don't worry about me dealing with asses. I think it's part of the medical school curriculum to ignore arrogant POS's. :)
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I think he/she was addressing a question earlier in this thread. I do not see how this person was an ass on the post
 
Maybe I misread the tone of the post. Sometimes it can be annoying trying to determine intent on a message board. :eek:
 
Pir8DeacDoc said:
Maybe I misread the tone of the post. Sometimes it can be annoying trying to determine intent on a message board. :eek:
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It's all good...especially when Miami blows away Wake Forrest this year! ;)
 
at least spell it right, man! Wake Forest, only one R.. :)

Glad to have you guys in the conference.. Too bad you won't add a darn thing in basketball. But the football addition will be nice.
 
AmandaRxs said:
So are you telling me that you could take a look right now at an EKG and be able to diagnose or monitor treatment? I've learned "how to read" an EKG a few times, but there's no way in HELL that I would trust my limited knowledge to diagnose or monitor therapy. I'm assuming/hoping that we'll learn about EKGs in a lot more detail with respect to therapeutics later in our education.
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Amazingly enough in my pcol class the entire anti-arrhythmic section was devoted to which class of drugs do what to the EKG. We were given disease states and were shown the abnormal EKG and we told what medicine they should take.
 
bbmuffin said:
Amazingly enough in my pcol class the entire anti-arrhythmic section was devoted to which class of drugs do what to the EKG. We were given disease states and were shown the abnormal EKG and we told what medicine they should take.
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Sounds like an excellent way to teach those drugs.
 
Pir8DeacDoc said:
at least spell it right, man! Wake Forest, only one R.. :)

Glad to have you guys in the conference.. Too bad you won't add a darn thing in basketball. But the football addition will be nice.
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My spelling is notorious around here for how bad I am! Hey don't count us out just yet in basketball! We made it into March Madness 2 years ago! Plus we will add to the baseball powerhouse in the ACC!
 
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Pir8DeacDoc... I didn't mean to piss you off.

I was just addressing an earlier thread regarding low physician pay. I have an aunt-in-law who always spreads rumors that I am wasting my time doing Medicine since I'll only make as much as she does, while working much longer hours.

I think Pharmacy is a Great GIG!!! In fact... I just talked my little brother, who will be a freshman in college this year, into going into Pharmacy rather than Dental School.

About the CRNA thing..... I don't want to go there in this forum.

I'm looking though this forum to try to get more info for my Bro, (not trying to rub my nose on anyone). I'm suprised to see there is a new pharmacy school at UCSD.
Regards, Khanh
 
Thanks for not taking this and running with it. Like I said, I hadn't really read the entire thread and your post just struck me the wrong way. Re-reading what you wrote, I can see what you meant. I apologize for my remarks.

As I mentioned on a previous post, my dad is a dean of an RX school and I'm in medical school. So, there are a lot of things that I find interesting and want to know more about in terms of curriculum and training. Plus. I enjoy shooting the breeze over here because it's much more happening then the general surgery forum :)

Sorry for the mix up.. Cheers! :thumbup:
 
Humm, still sounds arrogant to me. "player hating" and "pharmacy is a great 'gig'" Sorry, I still must be taking that the wrong way. And yes Gravy, I have dealt with lots of condescending asses in my pharmacy work experience already, guess I'm not immune to it yet.
 
No, it should be in the words of the giant gingerbread man....

"Be goood"
 
GravyRPH said:
No, it should be in the words of the giant gingerbread man....

"Be goood"
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:laugh: I loved that movie...especially the gingerbread man! :D
 
gdk420 said:
Sorry I posted this a few minutes ago, but in the wrong thread so I moved it here so some of u might be reading it again.

I got this in the Allo forum. I think it is funny. Check out this great school where u can earn ur MD after being a pharmacist.

http://www.uhsa.ag/pstudent/current-student/list.php?cat=pharm&g=fmcp

http://www.uhsa.ag/index2.htm
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very strange...i don't really see why the program is "for pharmacists" or any of the other professions it claims to be for. its just condensed with no vacations...

i love how they have a five year program to deal with the threat of hurricanes!
 
pharmer said:
I did (or am doing)exactly what the original poster mentioned. I did 6 years of school and got my PharmD and started med school 2 months after graduating. I went to my state pharm school and my state med school so all in all it is not that expensive (by no means cheap though). I am in my last week of my first year and things have gone great so far and I could not be happier with my choice. I have been able to prn in a retail store during the school year and will pick up hours during this summer. It definitely makes for a kick a** part time job. I plan on doing anesthesiology so I will be putting my PharmD to work there for sure. IMHO there is nothing wrong with pursing this route. I don't feel as if I robbed someone of a seat in pharmacy school because of my long-term plan. If I beat out a person that really planned on practicing as a pharmacist that year and s/he really wanted to go then they should reapply the next year and hopefully they get in (hopefully i don't get flamed for this). The original poster (or anyone for that matter) can PM me if they have specific questions.

Pharmer
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Hi Pharmer,
I PM'd you. :)
 
I think what BenU29 said is pretty much like a love story that you got caught in another person before you eventually got back together, ^_^ just kidding.

But I think it's all right if you wanna dedicate yourself to do it. There is nothing wrong with giving it a try and you'll see which one you like the best. I takes time, money, and effort, i know. But it's worth it because you try pharmacy school and job (if you want to) and then see if you can continue your education for med school.

hope that help
 
Very interesting thread, though I did not read every response, I will give you my opinion.

Nowadays, I really don't see the reason why people would go through a PharmD degree before they try med school. Reasons:

1) Length: PharmD is a 6 year program, if you have a degree which I am sure some of you do, it may take a total of 8 years to get a PharmD. If you then go to med school, it is at least 10-12 years of school!! + residency(3-6+years).

2) Financial: If you are going to a private school, I believe you will need to pay about $20k a year for tuition alone, if your parents are not rich, you are at least $100k in debt after pharmacy school. On top of med school, you will be way above $200k!!!!
Pharmacists almost have no trouble looking for jobs these days, and many can make $100K/yr (thanks to the pharmaceutical industries ripping off the public and many senior citizens) or more right out of school, it is a very good deal. Physicians, depending on your specialty, may not be able to find an ideal job unless you are willing to relocate, and primary care doctors don't make more than $150K/yr on average.

3) The pharmacy profession has become more clinical over the last 10 years, and I believe that moving to the PharmD degree is the right call. If you want to make use of your expertise(obviosuly not working for Longs/Walgreens), I think you will get some job satisfaction and able to make an impact in the health care profession.

4) For those that are really DEDICATED and still thinking about med school, be prepared, there is a long road ahead.

Good luck to you all.
 
"Pharmacists almost have no trouble looking for jobs these days, and many can make $100K/yr (thanks to the pharmaceutical industries ripping off the public and many senior citizens) or more right out of school, it is a very good deal."

Nice post surgery, but about this comment.....how do pharmacists profit from the prices that the pharmaceutical companies charge? I'm somewhat ignorant in this area as I have never worked in a pharmacy, but don't pharmacies just purchase drugs from the companies (at the high prices) and dispense them to customers with marginal profits? I don't see how a pharmacist would benefit financially from this.
 
surgery said:
Pharmacists almost have no trouble looking for jobs these days, and many can make $100K/yr (thanks to the pharmaceutical industries ripping off the public and many senior citizens) or more right out of school, it is a very good deal.
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This is not true. The pharmaceutical companies make money by ripping off the public. Pharmacists make that much money because of the demand. There are not enough pharmacists to go around so companies will pay more for our services. :)
 
South2006 said:
... will pay more for our services. :)
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I want to be paid more for my services... sounds like fun :thumbup:
We should all start now :D
Anyone in agreement?
 
Serfes said:
how do pharmacists profit from the prices that the pharmaceutical companies charge? I'm somewhat ignorant in this area as I have never worked in a pharmacy, but don't pharmacies just purchase drugs from the companies (at the high prices) and dispense them to customers with marginal profits? I don't see how a pharmacist would benefit financially from this.
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Profit margin: You sell 100 tablets for $2 with a 100% profit margin if it cost $1 to buy. If 100 tablets cost $10, 100% profit margin is $20. Therefore, higher drug cost means higher dollar profit for the same profit margin.
Given, drugstores hopefully don't(and can't) mark up brand name drugs 100%, it is very common that they have 100% or more mark up on cheaper generics, that's another reason why drugstores automatically fill your prescriptions with generics, they have a much better profit margin.

South2006 said:
This is not true. The pharmaceutical companies make money by ripping off the public. Pharmacists make that much money because of the demand. There are not enough pharmacists to go around so companies will pay more for our services. :)
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The supply and demand argument is pretty weak to explain $100K/yr. I don't see McDonald paying me $15/hr to flip burgers! How do you explain drug prices are going up 3 times of inflation (drug prices are up 27% vs inflation of 9% since year 2000)? Drugstores are wiling to pay that much money to hire a pharmacist because they can make big profit from selling drugs, it's that simple. If pharmacists are being paid $80K/yr to count pills, it would still probably be the highest starting salary for any professional degree(may be except dental, that's another rip-off story).

For all the young pharmacy students or soon-to-be students, the pharmacy profession has a bright future and I highly respect academic or institutional clinical pharmacists.
 
How do u feel about retail/community pharmacist?
 
Surgery - if you think hospital pharmacies aren't "ripping you off" you are sorely mistaken. The mark up on drugs in a hospital pharmacy is astounding. The AWP for a piggyback of amp is less than a few dollars, the patient gets charged $118. It's all of the stuff besides the drug you are paying for....

I really think that DTC ads and promotional spending are a huge part of the problem of high drug prices - not pharmacists' salaries. You'd be surprised at how little of a profit margin is made on the more expensive drugs.
 
spacecowgirl said:
Surgery - if you think hospital pharmacies aren't "ripping you off" you are sorely mistaken. The mark up on drugs in a hospital pharmacy is astounding. The AWP for a piggyback of amp is less than a few dollars, the patient gets charged $118. It's all of the stuff besides the drug you are paying for....

I really think that DTC ads and promotional spending are a huge part of the problem of high drug prices - not pharmacists' salaries. You'd be surprised at how little of a profit margin is made on the more expensive drugs.
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Yep! And, try paying $100 for a 50-mL bag of D5W for an ambisome flush! It's ridiculous.
 
surgical said:
Well an RPH is only a bachelor degree. I was refering to a PharmD which takes at least 6 years of school. There might be a lot of RPH/MD but not many PharmD/RPH or am I wrong. :D
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South2006 said:
There is no such thing as an RPH anymore. Everyone that goes to school now is for PharmD
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Now this is strange. PharmD is a degree. RPH=Registered Pharmacist(not a degree), as far as I know, everybody who are licensed by the board is a registered pharmacist. I just don't want people to be confused.


spacecowgirl said:
Surgery - if you think hospital pharmacies aren't "ripping you off" you are sorely mistaken. The mark up on drugs in a hospital pharmacy is astounding. The AWP for a piggyback of amp is less than a few dollars, the patient gets charged $118. It's all of the stuff besides the drug you are paying for.....
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Spacecowgirl, I don't think I ever mention hospital are not abusing ("ripping-off") the system and charge ridiculous amount of money on drugs. I am well awared. If you think I have more respect for the hospital pharmacist and automatically imply that in-patients are getting cheaper drugs, then you've taken my words out of context. I believe hospital/clinical pharmacists are using their frontal cortex more than just a counting machine in a community/retail pharmacy.
 
Who orders these expensive drugs that pharmacies dispense???? Last time I checked pharmacists don't prescribe. Physicians, NP, PA, OD, mid-wives, vets, am I missing anybody. The fact is that pharmacies purchase drugs because of demand not driven by themselves but by prescriptions. Could it be a lack of knowledge when it comes to the cost of drugs when prescribing?? I have seen physicians write Rx for Linezolid for VRE (vancomycin resistant enterococcus) UTI, which is $90/day, when they could have written for amoxicillin for what $2/day if that. So it is funny how pharmacies are blamed for the high cost of medication, yet they are not to be blamed for the cause in demand. Is it always the case that the latest drug to hit the market is the "best". Not always. Furthermore, the cost of drugs is a very small portion of the healthcare dollar. Look at hospital stays & you will see that pharmacy bill is very small. When you look at price of drugs (or even charges from hospital), remember that insurances will only pay for a portion of the bill...capitated reimbusement.
Pharmacists get paid alot of money b/c of market demand. CVS, Walgreens, grocery stores, etc are opening up pharmacies which need pharmcists to fill. Chain pharmacies make a profit on prescriptions by volume b/c the margin on each prescription has gone down. However the amount of Rx a person get nowadays is much higher b/c of a wider variety of therapeutic options that were not available 20 years ago like tx of impotence, baldness, antidepressants, etc.
Unfortunately drug prices are an easy target for disgust many people pay copays or if no insurance, the full price of mediciation. If most people really looked over their hospital bill they would be shocked the the costs of everything else.
 
IDPHARM said:
I have seen physicians write Rx for Linezolid for VRE (vancomycin resistant enterococcus) UTI, which is $90/day, when they could have written for amoxicillin for what $2/day if that.
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Hate to keep coming back to this thread responding to things that are not related to the original topic. But this is amazing, Amoxicillin for the treatment of VRE UTI? You heard it here first from IDPharm, please back up your statement with literature(s), or are you involve in some ground-breaking research for Amoxicillin? And this is a statement from a PharmD graduate, going to medical school?

Dude, first do no harm, study real hard in med school.
 
My apologies for my post. I need to clarify that VRE is not usually sensitive to ampicillin/penicillin. Yes, we have treated, (I work as a clinical pharmacist in infectious disease) VRE with ampicillin based on sensitivities. In these cases, the VRE was E.faecalis which was sensitive to ampicillin. I did not mean to come across as I rec. treating VRE UTI with amoxicillin empirically, it is based on sensitivities. Remember I'm only talking about UTI. You can tx VRE with doxy & macrobid again based on sensitivities.

Thanks Surgery for the advise. I will study hard.
 
surgery said:
I believe hospital/clinical pharmacists are using their frontal cortex more than just a counting machine in a community/retail pharmacy.
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I take offense to that because it is an ignorant generalization. Maybe you should read some of the many pharmacy journals there are out there to see that more and more pharmacies are moving towards pharmaceutical care, adding consultation rooms, getting certified in DSM, administering immunizations, and in some states, even prescribing. As a long-time retail tech, I can tell you that the pharmacists and the techs are far more than just pill-counting machines, thankyouverymuch.
 
spacecowgirl said:
Surgery - if you think hospital pharmacies aren't "ripping you off" you are sorely mistaken. The mark up on drugs in a hospital pharmacy is astounding. The AWP for a piggyback of amp is less than a few dollars, the patient gets charged $118. It's all of the stuff besides the drug you are paying for....
Click to expand...

Although hospitals do charge some medications at a substantial markup over cost, they are far from "ripping" anyone "off". There was a time when the hospital pharmacy was a revenue producing department, but that time is long gone. I'm sure you are aware of this crazy thing called insurances. And, perhaps you've even heard of all the hospitals going bankrupt. Hospital pharmceutical costs have more than quadrupled over the past 5 years. We are quite far from ripping people off and, in fact, are barely able to break even. This is the norm, not the exception.

We get paid cost for things like TNKase, gamm-globulin, infliximab. And even getting paid that is a battle. Yet, we must deliver these services to those who we know can't or won't pay. I mixed a ten thousand dollar bag of Digibind a few weeks ago, that I knew we would never see a dime of. What costs can be shifted are. Is it right to cost shift? *shrug* I don't know, but if we didn't, the ambulance would be pulling up to an empty emergency room. And, in reality, cost-shifting doesn't pay anymore either.
 
Not that drug price wars aren't extremely exciting, but I'm going back to the original intent of this post. If you know in your heart now that you want to be a doctor, I would not choose to first do pharmacy school. It is a great background from which to go to medical school, but if you already know that you want to be a doctor, I wouldn't waste your time. Pharmacy school is by no means a waste, but if you don't plan to be pharmacist, spending 4 yars in college before medical school is better than 6.

I happen to be a pharmacist who is currently applying to medical school. I graduated with my BS in 2001. I had always thought in the back of my mind that I wanted to be a doctor, but I put it off for various reasons. Not long after graduating, I knew that going back to medical school was the right decision for me. But it did take working for a while to realize that. I loved pharmacy school, but it just wasn't what I was meant to do. I know my pharmacy back ground will serve me well in medical school, and I think I will be a better doctor after being a pharmacist, but had I felt this strongly years ago, I would have just gone for medical school.

I don't know if any of that helped, but my advice is if your heart says you want to be a doctor, just go for it. Good luck!
 
GravyRPH said:
Although hospitals do charge some medications at a substantial markup over cost, they are far from "ripping" anyone "off". There was a time when the hospital pharmacy was a revenue producing department, but that time is long gone. I'm sure you are aware of this crazy thing called insurances. And, perhaps you've even heard of all the hospitals going bankrupt. Hospital pharmceutical costs have more than quadrupled over the past 5 years. We are quite far from ripping people off and, in fact, are barely able to break even. This is the norm, not the exception.

We get paid cost for things like TNKase, gamm-globulin, infliximab. And even getting paid that is a battle. Yet, we must deliver these services to those who we know can't or won't pay. I mixed a ten thousand dollar bag of Digibind a few weeks ago, that I knew we would never see a dime of. What costs can be shifted are. Is it right to cost shift? *shrug* I don't know, but if we didn't, the ambulance would be pulling up to an empty emergency room. And, in reality, cost-shifting doesn't pay anymore either.
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Hence the quotation marks.... :D I've personally had to dispose of several thousand dollars worth of EPO, terbutiline drips, Factor VII.......

I'm just saying that pharmacies are not the blame for the high cost of drugs.
 
Real quick here, first of all - what's all this five year, 7 yr, 12 yr talk? You were right, it should end up "setting you back" about 2 years. And I realize people work for money, but seriously don't let that be your sole motivation for becoming a doctor. There are easier/faster ways to earn 120-350k a yr than by spending 4 yrs in med school and 4 in residency. Imagine what u could make in another feild by working 80 hr weeks for 8 yrs with a college degree and half a brain. I am addressing the people who listed all of these money stats that they had memorized. My point is - if you want to become a doctor after earning a pharmd I think its a good idea & maybe the way u approach problems will be beneficially different from other doctors as a result of your educational diversity.
godspeed
 
I also feel that you are undermining the profession. Pharmacists play a different role in health care; we are striving to fight for our role to be our own health professionals without being undermined by physicians. If you don't find retail challenging, there are residencies that you can pursue after graduation. For example, I am interested in oncology and critical care, and I am planning to pursue 2 years of residency after I get out to specialized in either or. By being specialized, you can work with specialists that actually value your opinions when it comes to drug therapy. If you wanted to be a physician then apply for med school then, or at least post your questions in the pre-med forum since you know you will offend some of us future PharmDs.
 
jdpharmd? said:
I don't think that many of us are considering that route for two reasons. First, now that pharmacy has moved to the PharmD, it takes a lot of time and a lot of dedication to finish. Most of the people who are willing to put 6-8 years of school into the pharmD, want to actually use it. Pharmacy students go to school because they want to be pharmacists. Medical students go to school because they want to be doctors. Pharmacy school is so competitive lately, that many schools require or give a very high preference to students who have already completed a BS or 4 years of college.

The second reason is that tuition is very high for graduate school (usually 2-3x more than undergrad). 2-4 years of pre pharm, + 4 years of pharmacy school + 4 years of medical school could easily leave you with 300k of debt at a private school (such as MWU - IL). People graduating with a PharmD could make 100k/year fresh out of school. It's tough to turn 100k/year down and instead take another 150k in loans for medical school, only to graduate and have a 3-5 year residency that pays far less than 100k.
(edit to add this fancy part)

After the 4 years of medical school, a little math leaves you at:
Graduate pharmd, get job for 4 years = +$400,000
Graduate pharmd, go to med school @25k/year=-$100,000
Or after 7 years:
Graduate pharmd, get job for 7 years = $700,000
Graduate pharmd, go to med school @25k/year, do 3 year residency at 45k/year=+$35,000
So, 4 years after you graduate with a pharmacy degree, you could essentially be $500,000 behind (HALF A MILLION DOLLARS!)
At 7 years, you would be $665,000 behind. That's a lot of work and a lot of money.

It's certainly not impossible to do, but I'd like to have a house and a life when I'm 30, and not 300k of debt and an 80-hour work week. :thumbup:
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:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: couldn't have said it any better myself. Don't forget to add the blood and touching people part to MD as well. :laugh:
 
SHC1984 said:
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: couldn't have said it any better myself. Don't forget to add the blood and touching people part to MD as well. :laugh:
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You have said this over and over and over in pretty much every post I've read of yours. Are you really that repulsed by sick people?
 
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