Pharmacists can't write excuse notes???

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Yes, in your tiny little world you live in...

You may want to check out Washington SB 5557.

From what I saw that legislation isn't really applicable to the situation presented to a assessing a patient with undifferentiated symptoms, rendering a diagnosis or differential, providing therapy and rendering an opinion on what they can and can't do (excuse from work/court, etc..).

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Not to get into it here, but I think there's a difference....and probably a fine line, between self-diagnosing then coming in asking for advice on treatment for a certain symptom/symptoms VS coming in unwell asking "what's wrong with me".

I'm sure more thought was given than was let on, but in the initial example it was mentioned that the person appeared to have a "bad stomach bug" and then recommendations were made from there assuming a specific benign etiology. That may not have been the case but it wasn't presented as he came in asking "hey, what can I take for diarrhea or upset stomach?". I agree it's somewhat semantics and a fine line but where do we draw it? What if he was going into DKA? To be honest, even physicians usually don't offer treatment advice, a note or prescriptions without some sort of evaluation, unless a well known established patient recently seen for the same on-going problem. But for a new issue no, you need to be seen. People forget that they're seeing they physician for their knowledge and experience, even if that means during a quick 5 min office visit with a decent history and physical that could potentially rule out something serious that wouldn't have been caught otherwise.

I'm in a medicine subspecialty and even now something out of my field that I don't feel comfortable assessing I'm deferring to the appropriate physician (Go see your PCP, or neurologist, or oncologist, etc...) as after all this training I'm well aware of what I DON'T know.

Technically if someone comes in asking "what can I take for an upset stomach and diarrhea" you are still supposed to gather all of the same information and review all of the symptoms before making a recommendation. So in any case you would be characterizing and confirming the etiology. At least that's what they teach in school, to be fair in the real world this doesn't always happen and many pharmacists go straight to the product.
 
I think the bottom line is that while pharmacists can identify and handle self treatable ailments and can evaluate and manage patients with chronic diseases, they aren't in a position to make an official diagnosis. Maybe in the future they will be able to make protocol approved diagnoses for some minor acute illnesses. I guess in the case of the OP he was more than qualified to handle the situation, but because he couldn't technically make an official diagnosis the note wasn't accepted? I've seen pharmacists write notes for employers many times and they had no issue.
 
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I have no idea what attracted me to this thread, as I rarely post in this forum.

My view is completely different from what's already on the thread. I would argue that, as pharmacists, you don't want the ability to write work/court/etc excuse notes. Trust me. What will happen is you'll end up with a long line of people all wanting to talk to you about their "problem", and after you have answered whatever the question is, they will ask for an excuse letter. As a physician, I can tell you that these are some of the worst visits ever. Do I just write the letter and be a "patient advocate"? Or do I try to support the "system", and only excuse the patient if I truly feel their problem would make it unsafe / impossible for them to perform said duties.

Plus, if you start doing this, you need to keep records of it all. Just giving the patient the letter won't cut it. What if this person copies the letter and changes the date and uses it multiple times? You'd need to know when you actually wrote it. Do you really want to get into the business of medical records?

I agree with everything you said. If you want, you can write all the work/school excuses you want. However, I expect there may be a line of patients waiting for retail pharmacists to evaluate and counsel and then ask for a work/school excuse, esp in cold/flu season. (I know they do that already, but expect more esp if they know they can get a work excuse from you without having to go to their PCP)

In addition, that letter that Sparda wrote is now a legal document that states in his professional judgement, that patient is sick enough to be excused from jury duty. Hopefully he documented the encounter in a clinical progress note. If the patient clinically deteriorates (ie wasn't a viral GI bug but HUS, or acute cholecystitis, or ascending cholangitis, or pancreatitis, early DKA, or C diff colitis), then Sparda will need his progress note from the encounter documenting the pertinent negatives and positives on ROS and exam, as well as the counseling that he provided (eg., seek medical attention if the following occurs, etc). If the patient deteriorates, a lawyer will argue that the patient was harmed due to delayed diagnosis/intervention and that Sparda was negligent in timely referral OR missed warning signs OR inadequate counseling. If there is no progress note, then there is no documentation of anything that Sparda did and it will be a he said/she said situation. Once you start a progress note (for every sick excuse request), you will need to keep those records in accordance your state laws (duration, accessibility, kept HIPPA compliant, etc)

Your malpractice insurance might deny coverage (they might claim it is outside the defined scope of practice in the insurance contract) - or if they do cover it, may raise your premiums to cover the increase risks exposure. *scope of practice that the insurance agreed to cover you. Medmal won't cover a PCP doing neurosurgery unless the contract specifically agrees to it.
 
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I agree with everything you said. If you want, you can write all the work/school excuses you want. However, I expect there may be a line of patients waiting for retail pharmacists to evaluate and counsel and then ask for a work/school excuse, esp in cold/flu season. (I know they do that already, but expect more esp if they know they can get a work excuse from you without having to go to their PCP)

In addition, that letter that Sparda wrote is now a legal document that states in his professional judgement, that patient is sick enough to be excused from jury duty. Hopefully he documented the encounter in a clinical progress note. If the patient clinically deteriorates (ie wasn't a viral GI bug but HUS, or acute cholecystitis, or ascending cholangitis, or pancreatitis, early DKA, or C diff colitis), then Sparda will need his progress note from the encounter documenting the pertinent negatives and positives on ROS and exam, as well as the counseling that he provided (eg., seek medical attention if the following occurs, etc). If the patient deteriorates, a lawyer will argue that the patient was harmed due to delayed diagnosis/intervention and that Sparda was negligent in timely referral OR missed warning signs OR inadequate counseling. If there is no progress note, then there is no documentation of anything that Sparda did and it will be a he said/she said situation. Once you start a progress note (for every sick excuse request), you will need to keep those records in accordance your state laws (duration, accessibility, kept HIPPA compliant, etc)

Your malpractice insurance might deny coverage (they might claim it is outside the defined scope of practice in the insurance contract) - or if they do cover it, may raise your premiums to cover the increase risks exposure. *scope of practice that the insurance agreed to cover you. Medmal won't cover a PCP doing neurosurgery unless the contract specifically agrees to it.

Pretty sure he inherits all of this liability just by talking to the guy, he can be sued whether or not he writes the note.
 
Perhaps you two should understand what CA SB 493 and CA BOP APP entail before you type.

Are you trying to say that APPs are not allowed to perform patient assessments? If so, I suggest that you actually read Bill 493 and understand it before you reply to me.
 
Are you trying to say that APPs are not allowed to perform patient assessments? If so, I suggest that you actually read Bill 493 and understand it before you reply to me.
I think that's unfortunate and really inappropriate. Pharmacists are not trained to diagnose and assess. I don't care that there is a new designation for pharmacists in California, it's about as ridiculous as licensing nurses to dispense.

I helped with that bill. I think I have a pretty good understanding. You're the one saying Pharmacists are not trained to diagnose and assess. APP is a pharmacist.
 
1. Coming into my pharmacy and asking for an OTC recommendation is totally fine. I will give such recommendation if it is appropriate and a refer to a provider otherwise. I am trained to know the difference.

2. Coming into my pharmacy and asking for a excuse letter to get out of school or work is *****ic and I would say no every time. My facial expression would also likely give away how I really felt about the intelligence of someone asking a pharmacist for a Dr note.
 
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I helped with that bill. I think I have a pretty good understanding. You're the one saying Pharmacists are not trained to diagnose and assess. APP is a pharmacist.

Let's get down to the real question here. How much do you think an APP will make compared to retail or your standard hospital pharmacist?
 
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I helped with that bill. I think I have a pretty good understanding. You're the one saying Pharmacists are not trained to diagnose and assess. APP is a pharmacist.

That is correct. Pharmacists are not trained to diagnose and assess. If a pharmacist wants to diagnose and assess then they should inquire about going into medical school.
 
That is correct. Pharmacists are not trained to diagnose and assess. If a pharmacist wants to diagnose and assess then they should inquire about going into medical school.

Then why are you asking

Are you trying to say that APPs are not allowed to perform patient assessments?

APP will be trained to diagnose and assess.
 
Let's get down to the real question here. How much do you think an APP will make compared to retail or your standard hospital pharmacist?

There are 2 major hurdles.

1. Reimbursement. This is an easier hurdle as it's starting to happen.
2. Physician Bylaws of health organizations to accept pharmacists as a mid-level provider.

We are working on both. And if it doesn't pan out, it's not because we didn't try.

To answer your question, I will say that an APP has potential to make more than retail and hospital pharmacists, based on the volume of patients they see.
 
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In regards to training, I know in pharmacy school (at least mine) we were trained to perform physicials, get vitals, and other things such as diabetic foot exams, lung sounds, etc. to assist in managing chronic conditions. I used these on some rotations.
 
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Let's get down to the real question here. How much do you think an APP will make compared to retail or your standard hospital pharmacist?

Less or same if they are employed by a chain type environment.

If they work out of a minute clinic type environment at a cvs, they aren't going to be paid more than the staff dispensing rph. They won't even get paid more than the nurse practitioners currently providing this service (or else cvs will just keep using NPs)

Practicing on their own outside of a corporate pharmacy, potentially more depending on the volume of services and patients they provide for.


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I wonder if SB247 has a problem with the RNs in triage drifting into evaluation/diagnosis which is physician training.



Are you sure you're not a pharmacist?

You've certainly got the "fabricating a vague legal statute to support an argument" part covered. lol
http://das.ct.gov/HR/Forms/P-33A.pdf

The forms that are used by almost every institution in my state require a "Physican or Practitioner" signature. Pharmacists are not considered practitioners in my state, period.
 
http://das.ct.gov/HR/Forms/P-33A.pdf

The forms that are used by almost every institution in my state require a "Physican or Practitioner" signature. Pharmacists are not considered practitioners in my state, period.
I meant for that comment to you to come across as tongue in cheek; my apologies if you took it seriously.

I'm going to push my tongue a little farther into my cheek and thank you for the HR document that has nothing to do with FMLA. LOL
 
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Then why are you asking

APP will be trained to diagnose and assess.

Context is everything. Pharmacists are not trained to do those things and it's inappropriate for the California state legislature to allow that to happen
 
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Did Sparta wrote the note for OKuks on the other thread?
 
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In regards to training, I know in pharmacy school (at least mine) we were trained to perform physicials, get vitals, and other things such as diabetic foot exams, lung sounds, etc. to assist in managing chronic conditions. I used these on some rotations.

Just because you were trained to do it doesn't mean you're qualified to do it. Would an insurer pay a pharmacist to perform a physical?
 
Why on Earth would you want to be able to do this? People needing school/work/whatever excuses are one of my least favorite parts of my day.

I think I can speak for 99% of physicians out there when I say: you want that power? You can have it.
 
Why on Earth would you want to be able to do this? People needing school/work/whatever excuses are one of my least favorite parts of my day.

I think I can speak for 99% of physicians out there when I say: you want that power? You can have it.

Lol, some part of me thinks that the OP knew he couldn't write an excuse letter but proceeded to do so anyway, trollololol. I would've done the same just for giggles.


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Why on Earth would you want to be able to do this? People needing school/work/whatever excuses are one of my least favorite parts of my day.

I think I can speak for 99% of physicians out there when I say: you want that power? You can have it.

It's not so much the "Ugh, people bother me all day" part but the "nobody can reach me by phone, and if they're calling about a prescription I want them to take, they have to call another entity first before I'll even look at it" part that we want to get in on. lol
 
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This thread is hilarious.

On a side note, I did have an ER doc call me a couple of months ago and ask me to come look at a patient's rash and tell him what I thought. I was like, um, isn't that your job?
 
In regards to training, I know in pharmacy school (at least mine) we were trained to perform physicials, get vitals, and other things such as diabetic foot exams, lung sounds, etc. to assist in managing chronic conditions. I used these on some rotations.

And that's probably the last time any pharmacist actually used those skills. I think it's naive to think that you could just pull out a stethoscope and do a good physical exam. We listen to thousands of hearts and lungs, press on thousands of abdomens, look in thousands of eyes, and deal with thousands of stinky feet to gain the skills necessary to evaluate and treat patients. Even if one is trained in how to do it from a theoretical basis, the practical part is missed. Unless all pharmacists do several years of residency to build the skills from more than "I know where the stethoscope is placed" its useless. Honestly, do you think you have the skills to do an adequate exam right now?
 
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people are getting side tracked in this thread lol

Sparda writing an excuse note lmao why am I still surprised at the stuff that Sparda does

what will he do next
 
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I'm gonna start handing out prescriptions for Flinstones vitamins
 
I work in a community pharmacy. I think people are getting too stuck on the idea of physical assessment. (Pharmacists with additional training and certification aside) We aren't trained extensively in physical assessment and we are not trained to diagnose. On the other hand, we are confronted with questions from people who are sick or unwell. We are trained in medications, and self-care can be appropriate. If someone asks me an appropriate way to manage specific symptoms I will discuss ways to manage those symptoms with them.

I'm never going to tell someone to not see a provider, but I'm also not going to tell someone with mild cold-like symptoms that they need to go to urgent care. Do I absolutely know it's a common cold vs something else? No, I don't; however, sending people to urgent care is also medical advice based on patient assessment. If you tell someone to go to urgent care and they follow your advice, you just made a $1000 medical decision. Advice matters. Even if the advice is to go somewhere else, it doesn't lessen the pharmacist's responsibility in providing that advice. Inappropriately sending people to urgent care is how people with mild colds get placed on a Z-pack.
 
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I work in a community pharmacy. I think people are getting too stuck on the idea of physical assessment. (Pharmacists with additional training and certification aside) We aren't trained extensively in physical assessment and we are not trained to diagnose. On the other hand, we are confronted with questions from people who are sick or unwell. We are trained in medications, and self-care can be appropriate. If someone asks me an appropriate way to manage specific symptoms I will discuss ways to manage those symptoms with them.

I'm never going to tell someone to not see a provider, but I'm also not going to tell someone with mild cold-like symptoms that they need to go to urgent care. Do I absolutely know it's a common cold vs something else? No, I don't; however, sending people to urgent care is also medical advice based on patient assessment. If you tell someone to go to urgent care and they follow your advice, you just made a $1000 medical decision. Advice matters. Even if the advice is to go somewhere else, it doesn't lessen the pharmacist's responsibility in providing that advice. Inappropriately sending people to urgent care is how people with mild colds get placed on a Z-pack.
You don't have to say urgent care. "Is this a cold or something worse?" Should always be answered with, "you'll be best to speak with a physician about that"

Where is the cough medicine? Aisle 3, halfway down on the right

And of viral colds are given zpacks that isn't your fault, that's someone being bad at medicine
 
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You don't have to say urgent care. "Is this a cold or something worse?" Should always be answered with, "you'll be best to speak with a physician about that"

Where is the cough medicine? Aisle 3, halfway down on the right

And of viral colds are given zpacks that isn't your fault, that's someone being bad at medicine

That's where I think you're getting hung up on things. Nobody EVER comes into the pharmacy and asks "Is this a cold or something worse?" It's "I have [x] (which I have no idea if they found out from the doctor, WebMD, or their aunt's friend who totally works at the hospital (in sanitation services) - what can I do to make it better?" or "what do you recommend for a cough and a runny nose" - I'm not telling the patient what they have, I'm answering a question and giving a recommendation, both of which are well within my scope of practice.

If the healthcare system has decided that we are unfit to answer these questions, that's pretty sad, but I'll get back to checking my pills. I hope you guys enjoy being paged every 3 minutes to answer all the questions we've been screening for you as a courtesy.
 
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That's where I think you're getting hung up on things. Nobody EVER comes into the pharmacy and asks "Is this a cold or something worse?" It's "I have [x] (which I have no idea if they found out from the doctor, WebMD, or their aunt's friend who totally works at the hospital (in sanitation services) - what can I do to make it better?" or "what do you recommend for a cough and a runny nose" - I'm not telling the patient what they have, I'm answering a question and giving a recommendation, both of which are well within my scope of practice.

If the healthcare system has decided that we are unfit to answer these questions, that's pretty sad, but I'll get back to checking my pills. I hope you guys enjoy being paged every 3 minutes to answer all the questions we've been screening for you as a courtesy.
I have no issue with the questions you just described
 
I have no issue with the questions you just described
Totally respect where your coming from, but if you would do more for a runny nose than ask about seasonal allergies or cold symptoms and provide some OTC meds I'm questioning your judgement a little bit.
 
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"Jack cain't come ta court. He's got the crinkles. It's no good. Best let him rest, your honor.

- Mikey, Drug Dispenser and Connoisseur of Fine Breakfast Cereals

P.S. Tell the judge to shut down Post Cereals, if he can do that. I don't know. I assure you that they are Nazis."
 
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Totally respect where your coming from, but if you would do more for a runny nose than ask about seasonal allergies or cold symptoms and provide some OTC meds I'm questioning your judgement a little bit.
If a patient takes the time to drive to a doc's office, I don't think they are getting good primary care if they aren't offered more of an interaction than that (which maybe they decline, but it should be provided)
 
If a patient takes the time to drive to a doc's office, I don't think they are getting good primary care if they aren't offered more of an interaction than that (which maybe they decline, but it should be provided)
True, but that was my point. They don't need an MD. Unless MDs become easily available for free phone consultation, there really isn't anywhere for me to send patients asking questions like "what can I take for a runny nose."
 
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Had a patient come in a few weeks ago. Looked like he had a bad stomach bug. Told him to just take pepto bismol as needed and stay hydrated with Pedialyte and rest a few days and go to the physician if not better by then. He asked me if I could provide an excuse note since he had traffic court.

So I went on the computer, pulled up the letterhead template and typed up a short note with the information and recommendation to rest for a few days as well as OTC and signed it with: Dr. Sparda29, PharmD.

Guy came back a few days later and said the court didn't accept notes from pharmacists and wanted a note from a physician. WTF?
Sort it's like saying a PhDs is a physician they are not
 
I am wondering if there is any data to support this rhetorical epidemic of fatal misdiagnoses as a result of community pharmacists' assessments for patients ability to self-care. This idea that it's impossible to make that assessment based on a patient history alone / without a full physical exam by an experienced physician, and that pharmacists making such assessments would lead to patient harm, does not seem based in reality. A pharmacist is not trained to diagnose per se, but is trained to ask pertinent medical history questions in order to make appropriate recommendations for self-care and to assess for the need for medical attention, taking into account the limitations of only having a medical history.

The pharmacist isn't diagnosing, but is clarifying the patient's self-diagnosis and verifying that it is actually something that can be self-treated, and provides education on how to self-treat and when to seek additional medical attention. All of which are well within the training and scope of pharmacy practice.
 
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A runny nose could be a csf leak, a cough could be hanta, and a headache some form of cancer. That's why I always decline to make recommendations and tell people to go to a medical facility.
 
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I am wondering if there is any data to support this rhetorical epidemic of fatal misdiagnoses as a result of community pharmacists' assessments for patients ability to self-care. This idea that it's impossible to make that assessment based on a patient history alone / without a full physical exam by an experienced physician, and that pharmacists making such assessments would lead to patient harm, does not seem based in reality. A pharmacist is not trained to diagnose per se, but is trained to ask pertinent medical history questions in order to make appropriate recommendations for self-care and to assess for the need for medical attention, taking into account the limitations of only having a medical history.

The pharmacist isn't diagnosing, but is clarifying the patient's self-diagnosis and verifying that it is actually something that can be self-treated, and provides education on how to self-treat and when to seek additional medical attention. All of which are well within the training and scope of pharmacy practice.


I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise and I have no problem with the above. But it's not exactly the original scenario that was presented here.
 
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I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise and I have no problem with the above. But it's not exactly the original scenario that was presented here.

I agree that it doesnt make sense for pharmacists to write medical excuse notes, and there are some other concerns about Sparda's interaction with the pt. Although it seemed to me the conversation drifted from the OP towards arguments about how pharmacists are not capable of determining whether self-care is appropriate at all, but perhaps I misunderstood.
 
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I am wondering if there is any data to support this rhetorical epidemic of fatal misdiagnoses as a result of community pharmacists' assessments for patients ability to self-care. This idea that it's impossible to make that assessment based on a patient history alone / without a full physical exam by an experienced physician, and that pharmacists making such assessments would lead to patient harm, does not seem based in reality. A pharmacist is not trained to diagnose per se, but is trained to ask pertinent medical history questions in order to make appropriate recommendations for self-care and to assess for the need for medical attention, taking into account the limitations of only having a medical history.

The pharmacist isn't diagnosing, but is clarifying the patient's self-diagnosis and verifying that it is actually something that can be self-treated, and provides education on how to self-treat and when to seek additional medical attention. All of which are well within the training and scope of pharmacy practice.
this gets into diagnosis, when you "verify" that self care is appropriate you have now taken liability (I'm talking moral here) as the "professional" and made a patient trust that their condition is benign. Without the training and practice to do that, and taking the time to examine the patient and do a proper history, it's inappropriate
 
this gets into diagnosis, when you "verify" that self care is appropriate you have now taken liability (I'm talking moral here) as the "professional" and made a patient trust that their condition is benign. Without the training and practice to do that, and taking the time to examine the patient and do a proper history, it's inappropriate

I do have the training and practice to collect a medical history and determine whether patient reported symptoms are concerning enough to defer to another healthcare provider or can be self-managed by the patient. This was a fundamental part of my didactic training during pharmacy school and my community pharmacy experiential education

ETA: there is no need to use scare quotes around the word "professional." I am a licensed healthcare professional.
 
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this gets into diagnosis, when you "verify" that self care is appropriate you have now taken liability (I'm talking moral here) as the "professional" and made a patient trust that their condition is benign. Without the training and practice to do that, and taking the time to examine the patient and do a proper history, it's inappropriate
You previously stated that the additional care/testing you would provide in these scenarios would be completed in order to avoid making the patient mad. I don't want to send patients to a doctor's office or urgent care for something that doesn't need additional treatment. That is especially true in light of the idea that unnecessary tests will be ordered and unnecessary treatment provided in order to pacify that patient. We keep talking like there isn't a professional recommendation being made when we recommend that a patient see a doctor. Especially if we are speaking morally, we are responsible for everything that happens to the patient because of the inappropriate medical care we recommended.

You wouldn't refer every patient to a specialist even if the patient's condition could be treated appropriately without a specialists interventions. You would be sued if you referred every patient with a cough to an oncologist. It's possible that their cough is a symptom of lung cancer. There isn't any reason for you to believe it is lung cancer, but have you done everything you would need to in order to say to the patient "there is a 0% chance you have lung cancer."

Medicine doesn't work like that. I'm not telling patients that they don't have lung cancer the same way that you aren't telling patients that they don't have lung cancer. We're both presented with an obvious cold. You might say that you think it's a cold. I might say there are medications that can help with a cough and runny nose. We are both going to say follow up with an MD if symptoms don't improve over the next week or if they worsen.
 
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I work in a community pharmacy. I think people are getting too stuck on the idea of physical assessment. (Pharmacists with additional training and certification aside) We aren't trained extensively in physical assessment and we are not trained to diagnose. On the other hand, we are confronted with questions from people who are sick or unwell. We are trained in medications, and self-care can be appropriate. If someone asks me an appropriate way to manage specific symptoms I will discuss ways to manage those symptoms with them.

I'm never going to tell someone to not see a provider, but I'm also not going to tell someone with mild cold-like symptoms that they need to go to urgent care. Do I absolutely know it's a common cold vs something else? No, I don't; however, sending people to urgent care is also medical advice based on patient assessment. If you tell someone to go to urgent care and they follow your advice, you just made a $1000 medical decision. Advice matters. Even if the advice is to go somewhere else, it doesn't lessen the pharmacist's responsibility in providing that advice. Inappropriately sending people to urgent care is how people with mild colds get placed on a Z-pack.
+1
My OTC counseling always includes the " If X happens... / if X continues for X time... go see your PCP or seek medical attention" bit.

I am wondering if there is any data to support this rhetorical epidemic of fatal misdiagnoses as a result of community pharmacists' assessments for patients ability to self-care. This idea that it's impossible to make that assessment based on a patient history alone / without a full physical exam by an experienced physician, and that pharmacists making such assessments would lead to patient harm, does not seem based in reality. A pharmacist is not trained to diagnose per se, but is trained to ask pertinent medical history questions in order to make appropriate recommendations for self-care and to assess for the need for medical attention, taking into account the limitations of only having a medical history.

The pharmacist isn't diagnosing, but is clarifying the patient's self-diagnosis and verifying that it is actually something that can be self-treated, and provides education on how to self-treat and when to seek additional medical attention. All of which are well within the training and scope of pharmacy practice.
Yeah, the medical student seems to be too hung up on a bit of semantics, or they might just be ignorant of the reality of healthcare in the US.

Hopefully they'll become a bit wiser once they actually have real world experience and the novelty of the letters behind our names wears off.
 
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this gets into diagnosis, when you "verify" that self care is appropriate you have now taken liability (I'm talking moral here) as the "professional" and made a patient trust that their condition is benign. Without the training and practice to do that, and taking the time to examine the patient and do a proper history, it's inappropriate

So..do you think self care is ever appropriate? Or do you think that self care is sometimes appropriate, but that it is never appropriate for a pharmacist to make any recommendation other than "see a physician"?

I am just trying to learn how to be a good pharmacist here.
 
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You previously stated that the additional care/testing you would provide in these scenarios would be completed in order to avoid making the patient mad. I don't want to send patients to a doctor's office or urgent care for something that doesn't need additional treatment. That is especially true in light of the idea that unnecessary tests will be ordered and unnecessary treatment provided in order to pacify that patient. We keep talking like there isn't a professional recommendation being made when we recommend that a patient see a doctor. Especially if we are speaking morally, we are responsible for everything that happens to the patient because of the inappropriate medical care we recommended.

You wouldn't refer every patient to a specialist even if the patient's condition could be treated appropriately without a specialists interventions. You would be sued if you referred every patient with a cough to an oncologist. It's possible that their cough is a symptom of lung cancer. There isn't any reason for you to believe it is lung cancer, but have you done everything you would need to in order to say to the patient "there is a 0% chance you have lung cancer."

Medicine doesn't work like that. I'm not telling patients that they don't have lung cancer the same way that you aren't telling patients that they don't have lung cancer. We're both presented with an obvious cold. You might say that you think it's a cold. I might say there are medications that can help with a cough and runny nose. We are both going to say follow up with an MD if symptoms don't improve over the next week or if they worsen.
I don't recall saying I would give patients unnecessary testing to avoid making them mad. If you can cite me on that I'd love to either clarify or recant that because that isn't a good idea
 
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