Pharmacy Commentary

[PreciousRoy]

They were not personal attacks, merely observations based on the evidence. Also you should not include living costs in terms of tuition. You can live in group homes (with 4-5 other students) for $200/mo RIGHT ON CAMPUS here in MN (thus no transportation costs). You can also live the life of luxury in your own private high-end "student" condo for $1500 a month also right on campus. These are actual figures not hyperbole from someone who is pulling numbers out of a magic hat. So should I calculate $1500/mo into the "costs" of higher education? My education will cost me $115,480 + $20,000 in fees and their health benefit plan. Those are costs that I cannot control. I can control my cost of living, i.e. if I am living in high-end condos and eating sushi every night I will pay much more than if I am living in group housing and eating ramen noodles. If you are taking loans out to cover the cost of living then you are "doing it wrong." You also don't seem to take into account any work during these 4 years. If you consider a FT job during the summer, work during the breaks and casual work during school (~2 weekends/mo at most) I am personally looking at $27,000 (before taxes) per year. This is working a single job without sacrificing time spent on studying or having a "life". Depending on the job/pay there are going to be tailored variations to this number but you seem to discount it outright in your estimations. This is enough to easily "subsidize" my loans AND cover the costs of living while going through school. This isn't something that is unrealistic for other students to incorporate into their plans as well. Live like a student now, so you don't have to later.

Now if I want to live the "easy" life through school and take out max Stafford loans and even private loans (yes I agree these people exist), go to Cancun every spring break and spend my summer money on clothes and shoes.. yea I could see how 300k wouldn't be out of the question. If anything your calculations are a good indicator of what irresponsible frivolity can amount to, but it is a far cry from what every pharmacy student will experience when they get out into the real world. I agree with you that paying off loans in 3 years would be difficult without the incentives that existed pre-recession, maybe even impossible (without working more than a single job or picking up readily available OT). However, even with modest pay estimates, well below what current practicing pharmacists are making, I've calculated (using the debt snowball method) that I can pay off my student loans comfortably in 4-5 years and be completely debt free in 7-8 (that includes home, car, etc). I personally don't think that is an unreasonable length of time. So while I appreciate your words of warning, and your keen insight into the dangers of unsubsidized compounding interest, there are those of us who are aware of those dangers and still see pharmacy as a highly lucrative field with good prospects for those who are willing to put in the time and effort.

(you forgot to tell BM he's right, if you don't he'll come back harder, stronger. He's like the Ironborn)

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[Skrumpy]

I have to agree with BMBiology on this point. I, too, am looking at attending UMN (if I get off the waitlist) or University of Maryland, both of which I think are good schools. It scares the hell out of me that I have $40k in loans from 5.5 years in undergrad and that I will be taking out about $250k in loans before interest gets compounded, as both schools are out of state for me. I have a couple of scholarships pending, but I have no clue how big those will be. I am not exaggerating when I say it scares me; I have often thought about scrapping this entire idea and starting over, and I have had nightmares. I think the reason I keep with it despite the bleak outlook is that it's something I care about and want to do. Part of me is also scared to start all over when I know this is something I really enjoy. I can only hope that the job market gets better nationwide, but I certainly am not going into it with high expectations. Being in Los Angeles, I can definitely see the difficulty in the market here.

Maybe I'll marry into money...

Well read my post just below yours. OOS tution is rough, there is no going around that. Scholarships will help and most people don't even bother applying for them. Did you know there is are 2 scholarships to the UofM that would grant you in state status? There are also even more scholarships available after your 1st year. The coastal pharmacy markets are bad.. go to the pharmacy school locator and if you don't see WHY it's bad out on the coasts, we may need to have your vision checked . You can make ~80k working throughout school. You can save a lot by not being frivolous with your money. I see the starbucks near the CoP mobbed with students every day, and I'm sorry a daily iced mocha doesn't really fit into the life of a frugal student. That's $4,000 spent on coffee during your education. Maybe I'm OCD, but I wrote my own spreadsheet (using googledocs - I linked a copy of what the base SS looks like) that calculates how much money comes out of my account, goes into it and tracks all of my debt, savings, loans, etc. It allows me to see exactly what I'm spending, how much I owe, when I'll pay stuff off, etc. Having that knowledge is very powerful. I suggest you look into doing something like that as well. Take control of your finances and you'll stop having those nightmares and stop questioning "what if." Let me know if you need any help.

 

[Skrumpy]

(you forgot to tell BM he's right, if you don't he'll come back harder, stronger. He's like the Ironborn)

What is dead may never die!!! Apropos GoT reference there.. haha. I don't mind the debate, I think it's healthy to a certain extent. Some people do definitely take it a bit too far. Also I don't think that BMB is wrong, his point is just as valid as mine is. They are just two variants on opposite ends of the spectrum (in this case). The truth, as usual, rarely lies at the extremes. Also I think it's good for pharmacy newbies to have a little sense scared into them, as long as it is accompanied by similar sense on how those pitfalls can be avoided. Unfortunately most of these threads are simply fear mongering hype perpetuating an overly dramatized falsehood.

 

[BMBiology]

Also you should not include living costs in terms of tuition. You can live in group homes (with 4-5 other students) for $200/mo RIGHT ON CAMPUS here in MN (thus no transportation costs). You can also live the life of luxury in your own private high-end "student" condo for $1500 a month also right on campus.

The cost of living directly came from your school's website. Of course you can always reduce cost of living by eating a cup of noodle every night, living in someone's closet and walking to class. Not impossible but at the same time not realistic.

You seem to always paint a rosy picture but I am glad you have backed off this claim:

No one in my state could graduate with 250-300k in loans, even if they tried. I could go get 3 PhDs, a PharmD/MBA, and add in my undergrad and still come out well under that. I honestly don't know what random number generator you get your "facts and figures" from but the one kid on the forums who made idiotic life choices doesn't make up the vast majority of us.

I do find it refreshing that someone who is probably in his 30s is criticizing what I have accomplished in my life. I think I am a few steps ahead of you. I will wait for you to graduate so you can tell me about the real world.

 

[y0ssarian87]

Well read my post just below yours. OOS tution is rough, there is no going around that. Scholarships will help and most people don't even bother applying for them. Did you know there is are 2 scholarships to the UofM that would grant you in state status? There are also even more scholarships available after your 1st year. The coastal pharmacy markets are bad.. go to the pharmacy school locator and if you don't see WHY it's bad out on the coasts, we may need to have your vision checked . You can make ~80k working throughout school. You can save a lot by not being frivolous with your money. I see the starbucks near the CoP mobbed with students every day, and I'm sorry a daily iced mocha doesn't really fit into the life of a frugal student. That's $4,000 spent on coffee during your education. Maybe I'm OCD, but I wrote my own spreadsheet (using googledocs - I linked a copy of what the base SS looks like) that calculates how much money comes out of my account, goes into it and tracks all of my debt, savings, loans, etc. It allows me to see exactly what I'm spending, how much I owe, when I'll pay stuff off, etc. Having that knowledge is very powerful. I suggest you look into doing something like that as well. Take control of your finances and you'll stop having those nightmares and stop questioning "what if." Let me know if you need any help.

I'm okay with my nightmares about it because it helps keep me in check. I'm stingy and frugal and have a spreadsheet too (I'll upload it to google docs this weekend, I hope), but it's crazy to not be scared when you're taking out loans that are bigger than many mortgages with no job and no guarantee of a job. My last job as a research lab tech paid a mere $15/hr. Hopefully you can see how going from a salary that pays that much to debt in the range of $300k is frightening. The U of M scholarships that grant in-state tuition were granted before I even interviewed, but it doesn't matter since I'm on the waitlist. I intend to apply to scholarships at each school when I can, but from speaking to the schools, the scholarships usually don't exceed $5k/student per year. I've already begun looking into loan forgiveness programs; MN has one through the state health department for pharmacy practice in underserved populations, and there are several clinical research opportunities for loan forgiveness through NIH. These aren't guarantees, and really nothing is guaranteed (including a job) at this point except for the debt I would take. I'd like to think I'll do well after I graduate, but keeping myself aware of financial and market pressures certainly makes me think twice about my decisions.

Also, thanks for your offer of help. You're too kind!

 

[Skrumpy]

The cost of living directly came from your school's website. Of course you can always reduce cost of living by eating a cup of noodle every night, living in someone's closet and walking to class. Not impossible but at the same time not realistic.

You seem to always paint a rosy picture but I am glad you have backed off this claim:

Their "cost of living" was an estimate and they don't tell you how they arrive at it, so it is very difficult to determine how realistic it is or what kind of lifestyle that would allow you to lead. I haven't backed off any claim and again you haven't acknowledged the fact that you don't incorporate other aspects of "reality" such as working during school.

I do find it refreshing that someone who is probably in his 30s is criticizing what I have accomplished in my life. I think I am a few steps ahead of you. I will wait for you to graduate so you can tell me about the real world.

You don't know me or what I've accomplished, but if me being 30 refreshes you and helps you sleep at night, by all means soak it up. If your intention there was to rile me up with somehow coming off that you have some inkling of superiority over me please know that your statement is so ludicrous that the only response it prompted from me was guttural laughter. I'm glad someone has the real world all figured out at least, I was beginning to think no one could, and here I only needed to come to the SDN to find "the one." Maybe you should write a book on your vast knowledge on the subject. I hear the market for writers of fiction is a strong one.

 

[BMBiology]

Their "cost of living" was an estimate and they don't tell you how they arrive at it

Again the cost of living came directly from your school's website. In fact they did break down the numbers: http://www.pharmacy.umn.edu/pharmd/admissions/costs/index.htm

All you have to do is click on it. Even if you can reduce the cost of living by half, you are still going to graduate with a lot more student loans than you are willing to admit and this is just for pharmacy school.

After all of these years, why pharmacy now? Have you been applying? Is your gf forcing you to make something out of yourself? Look, I don't blame you for trying to have a better life but at the same time, you need to be realistic.

 

[Skrumpy]

and really nothing is guaranteed

There were 2 people at our Duluth student panel that had 1 scholarship each worth $20k, I'm sure that isn't the norm for a single scholarship but options you aren't even aware of now are still out there. I think you hit the nail on the head right there with your comment "nothing is guaranteed". You could just as easily go into any other burgeoning field and experience the same issues that pharmacy is faced with right now. I understand your trepidation, debt is nothing to be taken lightly and we all should be fearful of it. That is really not the case in our society today where we are weapons of massive consumption and taught that there are "good debts." A bit of an aside and not sure if you like hip-hop at all but you should listen to this song by a local MN artist, it really sums up society. Don't let the recession dictate how you will live your life and what you want to do with your future. You are already ahead of the game as I can tell you've taken an active interest in your own future, and aren't just sailing through looking for the paycheck.

 

[Skrumpy]

Again the cost of living came directly from your school's website. In fact they did break down the numbers: http://www.pharmacy.umn.edu/pharmd/admissions/costs/index.htm

All you have to do is click on it. Even if you can reduce the cost of living by half, you are still going to graduate with a lot more student loans than you are willing to admit and this is just for pharmacy school.

After all of these years, why pharmacy now? Have you been applying? Is your gf forcing you to make something out of yourself? Look, I don't blame you for trying to have a better life but at the same time, you need to be realistic.

I did click it. I can reproduce that entire website from memory. They don't break down their calculations for "Room & Board." Is that living in a box on the street? Is it living in the brand new multimillion dollar condo building they just erected for Hilton family members who want to go to pharmacy school here in MN? There is no frame of reference so therefore the numbers are near meaningless. I prefer to actually look at REAL numbers rather than estimations that may or may not be out of date and or unrealistic. Again you parry and refuse to mention the financial benefits of working while in school.

What do you mean after all these years why pharmacy? I've been in pharmacy for 13 years. Do you mean why after "all these years" am I now going to pharmacy school? If that is your question, the answer is that I get bored rather easily. I have done essentially everything I can do as a tech (retail, hospital, chemo trained, OR trained, TCT, inpatient/outpatient, cartfill, decentral, pyxis support, etc, ad nauseum) and there isn't much else to satiate my mind's hunger. I have considered other options, med school (and all its derivatives), PA, research, etc and always come back to pharmacy. Hopefully that satisfies your curiosity. My GF and I have lived together for 10 years (we don't believe in marriage, don't ask this would be grounds for a new thread), and she is happy with me being a tech or working at McDonalds for that matter.. as long as I am doing something that makes me happy. If it was the case of her forcing me "to have a better life".. likely we would have broken up several years ago. See, I learned long ago that you can sit there and try to keep up with the Jones of the world or you can be happy with what you have. Financially we're better off than most, and for me pharmacy has nothing to do with the money. Would I do it if I was going to come out and knew for a fact that there would be no jobs of any kind available? No, I consider myself a realist. Which is why I have done as much research as I have prior to pulling the trigger on pharmacy school. Also since you asked this is my first year applying, I applied to 2 schools and got into both of them. I believe we are entering a time when where you graduate will make a difference (more so in some areas than others). Back during the start of the boom, I worked for a retail pharmacy where we had a pharmacist floater who was late stage Parkinson's. He sat there unable to move from his stool, basically sipping diet Pepsi through a straw. He could not counsel patients, check medications, or take phone calls. He was the only pharmacist in the store. Those days are gone, and I for one, am glad for it.

 

[BMBiology]

I did click it. I can reproduce that entire website from memory. They don't break down their calculations for "Room & Board." Is that living in a box on the street? Is it living in the brand new multimillion dollar condo building they just erected for Hilton family members who want to go to pharmacy school here in MN?

What do you expect exactly? $50 a month if you live in your friend's closet; $2000 a month if you live at the Hilton?

For "Room & Board", they estimated it to be $10,000 a year. That's only $830 a month for a place to live, food, electric bill, water, trash, internet, etc. That's pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Skrumpy]

What do you expect exactly? $50 a month if you live in your friend's closet; $2000 a month if you live at the Hilton?

For "Room & Board", they estimated it to be $10,000 a year. That's only $830 a month for a place to live, food, electric bill, water, trash, internet, etc. That's pretty reasonable to me.

As I stated above there are housing options right now for $200/mo on campus (5min walking distance to the CoP) which include electric, water trash, internet is available via wifi from where you'd be living (it's actually accessible through the entire city of Minneapolis). You'll be living with 4 other people but you'll have your own room. Too loud? Study on campus as you can do it 24/7 right in the CoP. Factor in $50/week for food and you are at $400/mo total. Less than half of your "reasonable" estimate. Also again, no one should be rolling this kind of expense into a loan so it really is a moot point. This is 100% realistic and easy to cover with a casual job during school and FT during holidays/breaks/summer. Start working the summer before you matriculate and you'll have a good "nest egg" started for when you enter pharmacy school. The problem is how often do you see students walking around talking on the latest iPhone and sexting on their next-gen iPad? Virtually everyone, and as you have stated in some of your other threads loans are being used to pay for these items.

 

[BMBiology]

As I stated above there are housing options right now for $200/mo on campus (5min walking distance to the CoP) which include electric, water trash, internet is available via wifi from where you'd be living (it's actually accessible through the entire city of Minneapolis).

Show me. This is from the housing website: http://www.housing.umn.edu/costs/1213/index.html

I am not sure if you can live in the dorm as a professional student but even the dorms cost a lot more than your $200/month (not including the summer). You guys are going to move into a room together?

Again you are taking something that's an exception to the rule to make a point. And yes, we know you can apply for a scholarship to reduce cost. If it is that simple, everyone would have a scholarship.

 

[Skrumpy]

Show me. This is from the housing website: http://www.housing.umn.edu/costs/1213/index.html

I am not sure if you can live in the dorm as a professional student but even the dorms cost a lot more than your $200/month (not including the summer). You guys are going to move into a room together?

Again you are taking something that's an exception to the rule to make a point. And yes, we know you can apply for a scholarship to reduce cost. If it is that simple, everyone would have a scholarship.

So if I just provide links to random pages that have no bearing on the argument, like you are attempting to do, would that satisfy you? I said you can rent a house with 4 other people 5 min from the CoP and you provide a link to residence hall living costs? As it is during the semester you aren't going to find any listings for available on campus homes for rent right now. There is a university search engine specifically for this reason. Also, some of these options aren't even posted online, and you need to contact the office of Housing and Residential life to get more information. Their number is: (612) 624-2994 please feel free to call them and ask for confirmation regarding what I've told you. Or you can continue to link material that doesn't relate to the argument at hand. I live in MSP, I work at the attached hospital, I talk to several interns that also live in the area each year.. but I suppose someone who can use google does know more than me about the area I was born and raised in. As far as scholarships, most people don't apply for them. I don't have hard stats (I'm sure they exist somewhere) but very few people look into them as an option. Why? I have no clue.. it's free money. It really is as "simple" as working hard enough to qualify and then applying for them. I know 1-2 page papers are difficult for some people, but the opportunities exist. I really would like to know how you know that getting a scholarship is "an exception to the rule." Still you have not conceded to the point of working during school as a method to pay "costs of living" and subsidizing your own loans. But I suppose those are "exceptions to the rule" as well. I'll take your lack of argument on this matter as a tacit submission to the facts.

 

[JohnFe]

-eats popcorn-

Two points are valid. It's just that not everything will go as plan.

 

[Incitatus]

These threads are sooooo predictable.

Predictable In their frequency of appearing and in their evolution of discourse.

 

[Hermes 2000]

Your professor who said, "Do it. Don't wait. Get out", was he saying this because if you don't have the proverbial chops to wade through the current market you should find another job?

You're reaching. The professor who made that comment to me found pharmacy banal an fruitless and hence returned to school to obtain a PhD in order to get out of traditional pharmacy. This professor, in fact, enunciated major criticisms on pharmacy both in public and in private to me. You'd be surprised by some of the commentary levied on pharmacy from pharmacist in academic circles.

 

[nafcillin]

skrumpy - if you are so sure about pharmacy and so confident about its future, why do you spend so much time and energy defending it to random internet people? If you were truly confident you would just say "**** it, I'm doing this, who cares about these wh8res" instead of writing essays on sdn.

 

[Skrumpy]

skrumpy - if you are so sure about pharmacy and so confident about its future, why do you spend so much time and energy defending it to random internet people? If you were truly confident you would just say "**** it, I'm doing this, who cares about these wh8res" instead of writing essays on sdn.

I like to write, it keeps my skill in it from deteriorating too much. No one can be confident of anything in the future, however, I believe that those surfing the net for advice on pharmacy deserve more than to be met solely with the bitter musings of a handful of disillusioned individuals. It is not all doom and gloom, just like it is not all rainbows and unicorns. They should be made aware of where the profession stands (beginnings of saturation, development of more competitive market in certain areas, etc). Then they should temper that knowledge with information sought out from places, particularly those less prone to the dubious ramblings we are often subjected to given the anonymity of the Internet.

 

[radio frequency]

My GF and I have lived together for 10 years (we don't believe in marriage, don't ask this would be grounds for a new thread), and she is happy with me being a tech or working at McDonalds for that matter.. as long as I am doing something that makes me happy. If it was the case of her forcing me "to have a better life"...

Didn't you say somewhere that she's a pharmacist? Heck, you might not even need to take out loans if your relationship is that secure...

 

[nafcillin]

Just have your Gf pay. No worries about $$

 

[Skrumpy]

Didn't you say somewhere that she's a pharmacist? Heck, you might not even need to take out loans if your relationship is that secure...

Just have your Gf pay. No worries about $$

I'm not worried about my own finances as I plan to be completely debt free in ~5-7 years from now (not talking just student loans, also home, car, etc) depending on how many vacations I take. I'm not sure how that got brought up.. my concern was telling others that you don't have to go 250-300k in debt unless you make a series of unfortunate choices. It isn't the norm, I'd say 100-200k is probably much closer (if you get reciprocity). Obviously out of state is going to be more expensive but there are things we can do to help mitigate those costs. There are people who just waltz through without making a concerted effort to watch their expenses and these people can end up graduating with unbelievable debt load.

 

[BMBiology]

skrumpy - if you are so sure about pharmacy and so confident about its future, why do you spend so much time and energy defending it to random internet people? If you were truly confident you would just say "**** it, I'm doing this, who cares about these wh8res" instead of writing essays on sdn.

he only joined sdn for less than a month and already has more than 240 posts! someone has a lot of time on his hand.

 

[Hermes 2000]

I wrote my original post approximately a year ago and received some criticism for doing so. Here is an article published in the American Journal of Pharmaceutical Education last month that basically says what I wrote a year ago! And here is a discussion on the PharmacyWeek's blog entailing pharmacy unemployment among new graduates.

 

[half life]

Hermes 2000

I appreciated your original post. Would you care to update us?

 

[Pharmdmba1978]

There is no IKEA manual to life and no one is claiming that there is.. so I'm unsure where you are coming with your nonsensical sophistry. Also, I'm not your typical “prepharm” student, so if you really want to compare CV let's have at it, but please hold back your condescension as to the difficulties of life. You are hardly privy to some “secret knowledge” of it that I, and the others here, are not. However you want to twist it, I brought up some valid points especially in light of today's market. Someone with 100k in loans will live a very different life after school than someone coming out with 300k. To some extent we have a direct hand in controlling how much we are willing to invest (at the top end) in our education. I could have gone out of state and paid 3x more for mine, but I chose not to. Some don't seem to care and some of these are the type of people I see flying to Mazatlan every spring break and getting new cars while they are in school. Hey I don't judge, it's their life, my point was that even in this harrowing job market pharmacy school is still lucrative for those wise enough to exercise caution in how they handle their financial affairs.

Educational diversification, such as getting a dual degree (very cost effective way of setting yourself apart from the pack), can help tremendously in a competitive job market. Getting out of school with a PharmD +MBA/MPH/PhD/JD/MS/MSHI/MHA/etc means that someone can potentially use their combined degrees in a way that a PharmD may not be able to. Networking is also very important and getting into these dual degrees allows for more of it. For example someone going for a PharmD/MBA can develop ties to those in the business world as well as those in pharmacy. You take courses with business students, engage in their program, and make meaningful connections that you can use later in your career/life.

Not to burst your bubble, but I have a Pharm.D. and an MBA. My MBA is from a well respected university, not from some online college. When I told the pharmacy supervisor at my company that I was obtaining my MBA he just laughed and said it's all about networking, nobody from up top cares unless you are willing to kiss some a**