Pharmacy Oversaturation

[crazybob]

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Notice how in threads like these the OP doesnt post more than once tor twice......just saying.

We should pay attention to stuff like this.

 

[PolymeraseIII]

Ya know I read this article the other day about saturation in pharmacy, and it was pretty interesting. I always wondered how certain schools even had pharmacy programs. Take Drake University in Iowa for example... Why does that place have a pharmacy program? There are literally no other health programs there to speak of. I always wondered why pharmacy schools aren't just at public state universities. The article talked about how back in the day, pharmacy was real hot, and there was demand. So, a lot of private schools that needed to increase enrollment and make some money, started setting up pharmacy programs. That worked out pretty nicely, for a while. But now, things are cooling off, so pharmacy isn't the most attractive thing anymore. The article kind of continued by saying that schools will most likely forget about pharmacy, and head into other directions. Physical therapy, Dentistry, and especially Osteopathic medical programs may start popping up. That part was interesting to read, I had always kind of wondered about the random placement of pharmacy schools. The next part of the article was a little more out there, but nonetheless intriguing. It basically said that if anyone should be afraid of too many pharmacists on the future market, it should be doctors that are specialists. Take for example, a cardiologist. This kind of specialist makes around 400,000 a year. This specialist is also not the one who performs surgery, as that is a surgeon. A cardiologist might prescribe medications, worry about disease prevention, treat problems, and give advice. The article kind of hinted at the idea that a pharmacist with a few years in residency training could effectively do the same job for less than half the price. This would obviously be more cost effective to hospitals in the long run too. Again, this part of the article was pretty far out there. I don't how likely it would be for those kind of changes to ever happen; but still interesting to think about. I wish I had saved the link…

 

[ForumHangout]

Ya know I read this article the other day about saturation in pharmacy, and it was pretty interesting. I always wondered how certain schools even had pharmacy programs. Take Drake University in Iowa for example... Why does that place have a pharmacy program? There are literally no other health programs there to speak of. I always wondered why pharmacy schools aren't just at public state universities. The article talked about how back in the day, pharmacy was real hot, and there was demand. So, a lot of private schools that needed to increase enrollment and make some money, started setting up pharmacy programs. That worked out pretty nicely, for a while. But now, things are cooling off, so pharmacy isn’t the most attractive thing anymore. The article kind of continued by saying that schools will most likely forget about pharmacy, and head into other directions. Physical therapy, Dentistry, and especially Osteopathic medical programs may start popping up. That part was interesting to read, I had always kind of wondered about the random placement of pharmacy schools. The next part of the article was a little more out there, but nonetheless intriguing. It basically said that if anyone should be afraid of too many pharmacists on the future market, it should be doctors that are specialists. Take for example, a cardiologist. This kind of specialist makes around 400,000 a year. This specialist is also not the one who performs surgery, as that is a surgeon. A cardiologist might prescribe medications, worry about disease prevention, treat problems, and give advice. The article kind of hinted at the idea that a pharmacist with a few years in residency training could effectively do the same job for less than half the price. This would obviously be more cost effective to hospitals in the long run too. Again, this part of the article was pretty far out there. I don’t how likely it would be for those kind of changes to ever happen; but still interesting to think about. I wish I had saved the link…

Interesting.

 

[amox]

There are few jobs performing the current tasks that pharmacy is associated with.

Please view motions to expand practice. Instead of complaining and ignoring the field, join us in our efforts to take on more responsibility and liability.

I am not talking about vaccines; my main focus is the pharmacist's ability to manage chronic disease states, informatics, pharmacogenomics, etc.

Saturation is real... There are 250,000+ jobs with 12,000+ graduating each year compared to medical school at 700,000 / 20,000 respectively. This is a significant difference! However this surplus could be beneficial to our profession by forcing us to expand and search for careers. Just like the financial crisis it is feared at first; as time progresses the future will enlighten you.

Pharmacists are a lower tier biller to insurance companies and thus will be preferred for care to save the system money.

"My fellow pharmacists, ask not what your PharmD. can do for you -- ask what can your PharmD. can do for your patients."

"It is now the moment ...to recall what our PharmD. has done for each of us, and to ask ourselves what we can do for our patients in return."

My spin on JFK Inaugural address

 

[kcha90]

There are few jobs performing the current tasks that pharmacy is associated with.

Please view motions to expand practice. Instead of complaining and ignoring the field, join us in our efforts to take on more responsibility and liability.

I am not talking about vaccines; my main focus is the pharmacist’s ability to manage chronic disease states, informatics, pharmacogenomics, etc.

Saturation is real... There are 250,000+ jobs with 12,000+ graduating each year compared to medical school at 700,000 / 20,000 respectively. This is a significant difference! However this surplus could be beneficial to our profession by forcing us to expand and search for careers. Just like the financial crisis it is feared at first; as time progresses the future will enlighten you.

Pharmacists are a lower tier biller to insurance companies and thus will be preferred for care to save the system money.

"My fellow pharmacists, ask not what your PharmD. can do for you -- ask what can your PharmD. can do for your patients."

"It is now the moment ...to recall what our PharmD. has done for each of us, and to ask ourselves what we can do for our patients in return."

My spin on JFK Inaugural address

Here we go. Wise words. 👍

 

[Mezz]

Sometimes I REALLY wish I was a girl so I could become a nurse and it would be ok...🙁

 

[pharmerbird]

Sometimes I REALLY wish I was a girl so I could become a nurse and it would be ok...🙁

LOL have you see the ratio of women to men in pharmacy..?!?!

 

[Sugoi Travis]

LOL have you see the ratio of women to men in pharmacy..?!?!

It's pretty crazy. At least at my pharmacy, there is only 1 male pharmacist and 1 male pharmacy student intern. The other 8 pharmacists/technicians are all female.

To really skew the perspective, when I intern there, I am the only male in the pharmacy...not that it's a bad thing or anything! 😎

 

[Mezz]

LOL have you see the ratio of women to men in pharmacy..?!?!

Yes I agree, however I guarantee the women to men ratio for nurses is far worse than pharmaceuticals. And I'd rather wear a white coat than a white dress! 😀

 

[525329]

It's pretty crazy. At least at my pharmacy, there is only 1 male pharmacist and 1 male pharmacy student intern. The other 8 pharmacists/technicians are all female.

To really skew the perspective, when I intern there, I am the only male in the pharmacy...not that it's a bad thing or anything! 😎

I agree. There are a lot of females out there in the pharmacy world. 😛

 

[Amicable Angora]

Is Pharmacy over saturated the way everyone says it is? I had wanted to become a pharmacist because it sounded really good for me but I am not sure that I want to commit 6 years to a career that won't give anything back to me.

If i left sophomore year of college to do pharmacy, and I got out, how hard would it be to find a job in NJ? NC? GA?

This is scary stuff, enough to keep you from going into the field.

My cousin graduated from Stanford, Summa Cum Laude and entered UNC Pharm.D and finished 2nd in her class.

She had one job for 7 months, and now she has been looking for a pharmacy that will hire her for around 8 months. She now lives with her parents and all that debt is piling on.

I don't know how one can say "compete". You get a doctorate and you can't even find a job?

Sounds pretty bad to me. Sounds almost like what is happening to law.

Didn't you answer your own question?

 

[Retail rph 1997]

I have been a retail pharmacist for 18 years and am still employed. The good times were great. You could go anywhere and do anything. Now you stay where you are until you make too much and the they lay you off. Some how I hung on, but I am fully expecting to be let go by 2020. I made my money so I don't care, but you young kids should give it a lot of thought. There are no jobs left. All of my friends are out of work and they have a lot of experience. I would go to NP school or PA. The technology now is also amazing. We used to do 200 Rex's a day with 3 techs, now I have 1 tech.

 

[oldstock]

I have been a retail pharmacist for 18 years and am still employed. The good times were great. You could go anywhere and do anything. Now you stay where you are until you make too much and the they lay you off. Some how I hung on, but I am fully expecting to be let go by 2020. I made my money so I don't care, but you young kids should give it a lot of thought. There are no jobs left. All of my friends are out of work and they have a lot of experience. I would go to NP school or PA. The technology now is also amazing. We used to do 200 Rex's a day with 3 techs, now I have 1 tech.

thanks for the message !!

But you will see that a very few will listen. They believe they are so smart and working so hard that they will be immune to the law of supply and demand. No pre-pharmer believes what you are saying here unless they see it first hand 🙂

 

[Retail rph 1997]

thanks for the message !!

But you will see that a very few will listen. They believe they are so smart and working so hard that they will be immune to the law of supply and demand. No pre-pharmer believes what you are saying here unless they see it first hand 🙂

 

[Retail rph 1997]

I also interview and hire pharmacists for my area. Maybe that is why I still have a job. I get on average 60 applications for each position. I used to get 1 or 2. I would tell them to run a little test. Send out a few resumes that say they will be graduating in May. See how many calls they get. It will be somewhere around 0. I make 70 dollars an hour, I offered 45/hour to 2 new grads and they took it. My company was happy, but I know it won't be long before they discover I am overpaid.

 

[deleted390966]

.

 

[type b pharmD]

I have been a retail pharmacist for 18 years and am still employed. The good times were great. You could go anywhere and do anything. Now you stay where you are until you make too much and the they lay you off. Some how I hung on, but I am fully expecting to be let go by 2020. I made my money so I don't care, but you young kids should give it a lot of thought. There are no jobs left. All of my friends are out of work and they have a lot of experience. I would go to NP school or PA. The technology now is also amazing. We used to do 200 Rex's a day with 3 techs, now I have 1 tech.

Not sure I am convinced of any of this ... Hyperbole much ? There are "no" jobs left ? ALL your friends are out of work ?

That's a lot of strong opinion backed only by anecdotes! I am not convinced you aren't a new account from one of the other saturation trolls in this thread

If what you say is true, we are living in different worlds ... My starting salary out of school is higher than your veteran salary ... All of my friends from rx school were hired >$58/hr , and our class of 2013 as a whole had a maybe 10% unemployment rate. No jobs ? Salary drops? Maybe in your neck of the woods .. I will consider believing it when they stop offering 20+k sign on bonuses.

Yeah it's harder... Maybe there won't be "any" jobs 10 years from now .. but what you say goes against a lot of what new grads are seeing in the actual field. It's also possible you just work for a company that's decreasing in relevance or market power ? I just hired my 8th full time tech with blessing from corporate.

Of course if you send out a fake resume you won't get any calls .. how is that surprising ? Does anyone think sending a resume in to a mailbox is going to get them a job? I have had the privilege of entertaining 6 offers in the past 2 years across 2 job hunts in 2 separate pharmacy sectors, maybe 1-2 were from blind resume mailing.... I would argue that sending a resume and a fake "all star rotations and references list " would get a bunch of call backs ... But nobody is going to do that because its unethical and could hurt their chances later ... So why even make this hypothetical resume argument when it means nothing in the real world and can't be realistically followed through on ?

A word of caution is advisable.. the world of pharmacy is getting a lot tougher and jobs are getting more scarce... But your post sounds bogus , not gonna lie.

I tell parents and teenagers that pharmacy is a great field to go into on a weekly basis for 2 reasons... because I know it is necessary given this type of inflammatory internet trolling... And secondly because I believe it is still going to be a great career 10 years from now.

 

[Retail rph 1997]

Not sure I am convinced of any of this ... Hyperbole much ? There are "no" jobs left ? ALL your friends are out of work ?

That's a lot of strong opinion backed only by anecdotes! I am not convinced you aren't a new account from one of the other saturation trolls in this thread

If what you say is true, we are living in different worlds ... My starting salary out of school is higher than your veteran salary ... All of my friends from rx school were hired >$58/hr , and our class of 2013 as a whole had a maybe 10% unemployment rate. No jobs ? Salary drops? Maybe in your neck of the woods .. I will consider believing it when they stop offering 20+k sign on bonuses.

Yeah it's harder... Maybe there won't be "any" jobs 10 years from now .. but what you say goes against a lot of what new grads are seeing in the actual field. It's also possible you just work for a company that's decreasing in relevance or market power ? I just hired my 8th full time tech with blessing from corporate.

Of course if you send out a fake resume you won't get any calls .. how is that surprising ? Does anyone think sending a resume in to a mailbox is going to get them a job? I have had the privilege of entertaining 6 offers in the past 2 years across 2 job hunts in 2 separate pharmacy sectors, maybe 1-2 were from blind resume mailing.... I would argue that sending a resume and a fake "all star rotations and references list " would get a bunch of call backs ... But nobody is going to do that because its unethical and could hurt their chances later ... So why even make this hypothetical resume argument when it means nothing in the real world and can't be realistically followed through on ?

A word of caution is advisable.. the world of pharmacy is getting a lot tougher and jobs are getting more scarce... But your post sounds bogus , not gonna lie.

I tell parents and teenagers that pharmacy is a great field to go into on a weekly basis for 2 reasons... because I know it is necessary given this type of inflammatory internet trolling... And secondly because I believe it is still going to be a great career 10 years from now.

-------I should add my demographics you are correct. I am talking about Rochester, Syracuse and Buffalo, Ny. My above numbers are no exaggeration for this area. We have 5 pharmacy schools pumping out grads like crazy, so basically you get a job for 2 years, then you are gone because we can hire someone else. If you are over 50 forget about it, your pharmacy career is over. This is retail and not hospital and if you move to Texas or North Dakota it is a lot different, but as far as New York and Penn...it is true.

 

[Retail rph 1997]

Why did you do this (offer such low salary)? Based on this, I think it's the pharmacists themselves who drive down the profession salaries 🙁

I do what I am told. Offer what the market can take...still a good job if you can get it. Just don't have your heart set on keeping it long. The unemployment rate for new grads is about 10% now and is projected to go to 20% by 2020. It is just simple economics.

 

[Retail rph 1997]

I do what I am told. Offer what the market can take...still a good job if you can get it. Just don't have your heart set on keeping it long. The unemployment rate for new grads is about 10% now and is projected to go to 20% by 2020. It is just simple economics.

I don't own the pharmacy I work for a large chain. One of the biggest. If I had an independent pharmacy I would offer more.

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

I don't own the pharmacy I work for a large chain. One of the biggest. If I had an independent pharmacy I would offer more.

Have you worked with an intern from D'Youville College yet? What are your thoughts on their work ethic, knowledge base, etc.? I wouldn't be surprised if you said their students were the ones that needed to be REALLY micromanaged out of all the jokers in your region.

 

[fewaopi]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930253/

I've seen postings of Dan Brown's article a lot but not sure if this other article has been posted here and I find it relevant to all the doom and gloom threads these days.

For prepharmers, I highly recommend this paper. While with any paper there are limitations, it would be very wise to listen to those posting who have actual experience, are currently working, and have a much better understanding of the current job climate since they are experiencing it and you are not even in pharmacy school yet! If you don't believe them, then here! More actual Research!! I know when I started school, I had no idea about jobs or even thought about it. I just thought of having fun, enjoying school life, thinking it'd all be fine. Well like many others i'm sure, wish i had more awareness, fear, desperation that would make me more serious about grabbing opportunity and making connections and making the most out of school. Yet even if you do get a high gpa, make connections, there may be no openings or opportunities so be willing to relocate, which many aren't.

While many prepharmers are adamant on pursuing pharmacy, some here want to just let you all know things aren't what they seem and based on projected trend and our "biased" experiences, there is very strong probability that when you graduate, it will be much worse. Those who are older are watching you all make decisions that could lead you to real financial distress. Like many of you, I've seen people desperate and unable to pay back student loans, I've seen people crying and panic after they realize they have no way to pay it back and ignore it hoping it'll disappear. fortunately for current students in this field, there's still some opportunity before the tunnel shuts but when most people on this side of the forum graduate, it's going to be a much tighter job market than you will expect. not impossible but do lower your expectations and don't set your hopes too high.

A big concern is the debt and ability to pay it back many will take. Salaries are stagnant (for almost all professions), jobs are scarcer (trust me i browse the job boards to feel the market in my area) and tuition is rising, we all know this and there's no sign of stopping. it'd pain me to see many of you lose respect for the profession once you graduate and turn bitter (like some here) because things were not what you expected. but do understand the huge financial risk you (or your parents if you're lucky) are taking. some of you will say we're trying to scare you away for fear of our jobs. but really i feel sorry for you or your parents droppings hundreds of thousands of dollars for your future, riding their hopes, dreams, pride on you only for it be a poor investment because you did not heed the importance of taking school seriously. (so if someone says don't matter how you did in school, you just need a degree, then IGNORE THEM, it MATTERS now you actually have to FIGHT for a job now and fighting might not even be enough in 4 years). i like pharmacy and none of us are afraid of you guys tbh the quality ive seen is getting lower (even including myself), more afraid of you taking astronomical debt and can't pay it back, last time that happened, you were toddlers but we had a pretty big recession we still havent recovered from. and this time there's no asset to collect

the last president said "everyone should have a home" and eased mortgages, lending money, especially to people who cannot afford. guess what happened? now "everyone should have education" and eased student loans, lending, especially to people who will pursue jobs no longer there or some schools say for jobs that don't exist now but will in the future (what a joke!) moral of these lessons? not everyone deserves a house, not everyone deserves an education, not everyone deserves to be doctor of pharmacy simply because you can take out loans and hold a pencil the right way. again think about the risk and your ability to pay back and avoid default. can you afford the risk? are you really a stellar student? do you have family? kids? other events that can hold you back from finding a job anywhere in the country? even congress/lord obama are trying to rein in uncontrolled student loans, why? cause of the horror studies and ruined lives and a significant number of pharmacy students are poised to join those ranks of students. so mind the risk. also remember, pharmacy isn't the only field out there, there's so much to actually do don't just limit yourself to pharmacy.

fwiw, a reputable school i know of had 70% find employment at graduation, but 1/2 of that 70% were not "real" jobs (they were post grad training, residencies, fellowships, etc). So roughly 35% of the class actually got the 6 figure job many prepharmers are looking for and who knows how long you'll stay there before you're laid off, as many at chains know. compared to other fields right now like literature, that's pretty damn good actually but it was only 5-6 years ago that near 100% could find jobs. so w/more schools, less demand, bigger classes, and 4 years of thousands of pharmacists already struggling for jobs and ahead of you, how do you fancy your chances? just don't get your hopes up and prepare for some disappointment. my goal isn't to scare you but for you to understand the risk. so is pharmacy school worth it? i would ask, "is pharmacy school worth the risk?" because many things are uncertain and from my experience, luck and coincidence play a big role at times for getting a job and sometimes it just works out. sometimes not.

so if your love for pharmacy overrides all these concerns, my advice to you is
- get a tech job during school ( i still can't believe there are students whose only work experience are from rotations, if you're worried driving 100 miles for a 8.25/hr job at CVS will hurt your grades and you got no other opportunity, take it anyway! and if you know how hard it is to find a tech job in your area, think how hard it is for pharmacists!)
- treat rotations like job interviews (give it everything you got, write thank you cards, not sure gifts are good idea, it'd make me uncomfortable, even if they don't offer you job, you can get LOR)
- think outside box: pharmacy isn't just retail or hospital/clinical. there's managed care, industry, mtm, LTC, nuclear, infusion, specialty, mail order, and err that's probably it. PMH maybe too?
- willing to relocate - im surprised many don't do this, guess it's because of desirable area and wanting to be near friends you made in school but be willing to relocate
- accept lower working conditions - be okay w/working in real crap areas you have no choice, you picked the profession, know the risks.
- balance school life - don't just focus on grades, focus on shaping yourself for career, be involved (but not too overly involved)
- save money, if not on tuition then on your lifestyle, get used books, rent cheap, eat cheap, drive cheap, everything cheap. get scholarships, y.
- pick a school that will train you well and has reputation and history. preferably if it does actual research (usually big publics will have better reputation and slightly more morals and hold itself to higher standards than your greedy diploma mill don't give a crap about you private school that opened in last 10 years. even if public school has higher increase in tuition than private according to article, it's still cheaper and scholarships can help dent it down. quality of students in better schools also improve quality of your connections). IMO and probably many others some may disagree but overall, the private schools recently opened are poor quality, not established, and the students admitted often are poor quality or poorly trained and crap rotation sites if newly opened in saturated area. if you think about attending those types of for-profit schools and take that huge debt, well i feel maybe you are kind of an idiot a bit. those schools accept your money, you're responsible for paying it back, and you assume 100% of the RISK, THEY don't care, they got your MONEY!
- don't be fooled by job postings like on monster, indeed, etc, many already have candidates and are required to post by government, even if no actual job is there
- it's not "the sky is falling" right now, 4 years later could possibly be like that maybe but better than other fields. there are jobs, it's just a lot harder than it used to be and the number of unemployed keeps increasing, if you think you're a superstar, go for it, if you're a lazy person thinking this is easy path to 6 figures like some pharmacists in the not so distant past, then you're more likely to be screwed....hard....unless you are willing to work anywhere in the country, anytime of day, for any amount of money no matter how low, then you would probably guaranteed to find a job.
- understand the risk and increasing difficulty of finding work happening now and near 100% in the future, will change how you treat pharmacy school and whether you even decide if worth attending anymore
- understand long-term, can you work or will there be work till you're 50? baby boomers will die out and demand will drop DRAMATICALLY! what will you do then?
- then there's robots but that no one can predict.
- geography and luck matters a lot! hard work can increase your chance of good luck

some pharmacy students are real stellar, very bright, hard working, and if i had jobs to give them i would. but increasing number of students are unqualified, not very bright, poor economic background but want dreamy, easy rich life and this type of student is increasing, in part b/c of these private, for profit schools being driven and expanded by these students helped by easier access to student loans and a signature and there's clear difference in quality. some students in these private for profits i know of are already complaining about poor quality of programs and want to get out of the schools many prepharmers are desperate to attend. competition is good but many here are overestimating themselves and the job outlook and hopefully other posters here bring more objective, rational, calm dose dose of reality to potential future pharmacists.

hope this helps!

 

[BF7]

My cousin graduated from Stanford, Summa Cum Laude and entered UNC Pharm.D and finished 2nd in her class.

She had one job for 7 months, and now she has been looking for a pharmacy that will hire her for around 8 months. She now lives with her parents and all that debt is piling on.

I don't know how one can say "compete". You get a doctorate and you can't even find a job?

Sounds pretty bad to me. Sounds almost like what is happening to law.

Tell her to move to West Texas. Still a huge need here

 

[Retail rph 1997]

Have you worked with an intern from D'Youville College yet? What are your thoughts on their work ethic, knowledge base, etc.? I wouldn't be surprised if you said their students were the ones that needed to be REALLY micromanaged out of all the jokers in your region.

Yes, I have. Most of the new kids struggle at first. The business side takes a lot of experience to master

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930253/

I've seen postings of Dan Brown's article a lot but not sure if this other article has been posted here and I find it relevant to all the doom and gloom threads these days.

For prepharmers, I highly recommend this paper. While with any paper there are limitations, it would be very wise to listen to those posting who have actual experience, are currently working, and have a much better understanding of the current job climate since they are experiencing it and you are not even in pharmacy school yet! If you don't believe them, then here! More actual Research!! I know when I started school, I had no idea about jobs or even thought about it. I just thought of having fun, enjoying school life, thinking it'd all be fine. Well like many others i'm sure, wish i had more awareness, fear, desperation that would make me more serious about grabbing opportunity and making connections and making the most out of school. Yet even if you do get a high gpa, make connections, there may be no openings or opportunities so be willing to relocate, which many aren't.

While many prepharmers are adamant on pursuing pharmacy, some here want to just let you all know things aren't what they seem and based on projected trend and our "biased" experiences, there is very strong probability that when you graduate, it will be much worse. Those who are older are watching you all make decisions that could lead you to real financial distress. Like many of you, I've seen people desperate and unable to pay back student loans, I've seen people crying and panic after they realize they have no way to pay it back and ignore it hoping it'll disappear. fortunately for current students in this field, there's still some opportunity before the tunnel shuts but when most people on this side of the forum graduate, Tis going to be a much tighter job market than you will expect. not impossible but do lower your expectations and don't set your hopes too high.

A big concern is the debt and ability to pay it back many will take. Salaries are stagnant (for almost all professions), jobs are scarcer (trust me i browse the job boards to feel the market in my area) and tuition is rising, we all know this and there's no sign of stopping. it'd pain me to see many of you lose respect for the profession once you graduate and turn bitter (like some here) because things were not what you expected. but do understand the huge financial risk you (or your parents if you're lucky) are taking. some of you will say we're trying to scare you away for fear of our jobs. but really i feel sorry for you or your parents droppings hundreds of thousands of dollars for your future, riding their hopes, dreams, pride on you only for it be a poor investment because you did not heed the importance of taking school seriously. (so if someone says don't matter how you did in school, you just need a degree, then IGNORE THEM, it MATTERS now you actually have to FIGHT for a job now and fighting might not even be enough in 4 years). i like pharmacy and none of us are afraid of you guys tbh the quality ive seen is getting lower (even including myself), more afraid of you taking astronomical debt and can't pay it back, last time that happened, you were toddlers but we had a pretty big recession we still havent recovered from. and this time there's no asset to collect

the last president said "everyone should have a home" and eased mortgages, lending money, especially to people who cannot afford. guess what happened? now "everyone should have education" and eased student loans, lending, especially to people who will pursue jobs no longer there or some schools say for jobs that don't exist now but will in the future (what a joke!) moral of these lessons? not everyone deserves a house, not everyone deserves an education, not everyone deserves to be doctor of pharmacy simply because you can take out loans and hold a pencil the right way. again think about the risk and your ability to pay back and avoid default. can you afford the risk? are you really a stellar student? do you have family? kids? other events that can hold you back from finding a job anywhere in the country? even congress/lord obama are trying to rein in uncontrolled student loans, why? cause of the horror studies and ruined lives and a significant number of pharmacy students are poised to join those ranks of students. so mind the risk. also remember, pharmacy isn't the only field out there, there's so much to actually do don't just limit yourself to pharmacy.

fwiw, a reputable school i know of had 70% find employment at graduation, but 1/2 of that 70% were not "real" jobs (they were post grad training, residencies, fellowships, etc). So roughly 35% of the class actually got the 6 figure job many prepharmers are looking for and who knows how long you'll stay there before you're laid off, as many at chains know. compared to other fields right now like literature, that's pretty damn good actually but Twas only 5-6 years ago that near 100% could find jobs. so w/more schools, less demand, bigger classes, and 4 years of thousands of pharmacists already struggling for jobs and ahead of you, how do you fancy your chances? just don't get your hopes up and prepare for some disappointment. my goal isn't to scare you but for you to understand the risk. so is pharmacy school worth it? i would ask, "is pharmacy school worth the risk?" because many things are uncertain and from my experience, luck and coincidence play a big role at times for getting a job and sometimes it just works out. sometimes not.

so if your love for pharmacy overrides all these concerns, my advice to you is
- get a tech job during school ( i still can't believe there are students whose only work experience are from rotations, if you're worried driving 100 miles for a 8.25/hr job at CVS will hurt your grades and you got no other opportunity, take it anyway! and if you know how hard Tis to find a tech job in your area, think how hard Tis for pharmacists!)
- treat rotations like job interviews (give it everything you got, write thank you cards, not sure gifts are good idea, it'd make me uncomfortable, even if they don't offer you job, you can get LOR)
- think outside box: pharmacy isn't just retail or hospital/clinical. there's managed care, industry, mtm, LTC, nuclear, infusion, specialty, mail order, and err that's probably it. PMH maybe too?
- willing to relocate - im surprised many don't do this, guess Tis because of desirable area and wanting to be near friends you made in school but be willing to relocate
- accept lower working conditions - be okay w/working in real crap areas you have no choice, you picked the profession, know the risks.
- balance school life - don't just focus on grades, focus on shaping yourself for career, be involved (but not too overly involved)
- save money, if not on tuition then on your lifestyle, get used books, rent cheap, eat cheap, drive cheap, everything cheap. get scholarships, y.
- pick a school that will train you well and has reputation and history. preferably if it does actual research (usually big publics will have better reputation and slightly more morals and hold itself to higher standards than your greedy diploma mill don't give a crap about you private school that opened in last 10 years. even if public school has higher increase in tuition than private according to article, Tis still cheaper and scholarships can help dent it down. quality of students in better schools also improve quality of your connections). IMO and probably many others some may disagree but overall, the private schools recently opened are poor quality, not established, and the students admitted often are poor quality or poorly trained and crap rotation sites if newly opened in saturated area. if you think about attending those types of for-profit schools and take that huge debt, well i feel maybe you are kind of an idiot a bit. those schools accept your money, you're responsible for paying it back, and you assume 100% of the RISK, THEY don't care, they got your MONEY!
- don't be fooled by job postings like on monster, indeed, etc, many already have candidates and are required to post by government, even if no actual job is there
- Tis not "the sky is falling" right now, 4 years later could possibly be like that maybe but better than other fields. there are jobs, Tis just a lot harder than it used to be and the number of unemployed keeps increasing, if you think you're a superstar, go for it, if you're a lazy person thinking this is easy path to 6 figures like some pharmacists in the not so distant past, then you're more likely to be screwed....hard....unless you are willing to work anywhere in the country, anytime of day, for any amount of money no matter how low, then you would probably guaranteed to find a job.
- understand the risk and increasing difficulty of finding work happening now and near 100% in the future, will change how you treat pharmacy school and whether you even decide if worth attending anymore
- understand long-term, can you work or will there be work till you're 50? baby boomers will die out and demand will drop DRAMATICALLY! what will you do then?
- then there's robots but that no one can predict.
- geography and luck matters a lot! hard work can increase your chance of good luck

some pharmacy students are real stellar, very bright, hard working, and if i had jobs to give them i would. but increasing number of students are unqualified, not very bright, poor economic background but want dreamy, easy rich life and this type of student is increasing, in part b/c of these private, for profit schools being driven and expanded by these students helped by easier access to student loans and a signature and there's clear difference in quality. some students in these private for profits i know of are already complaining about poor quality of programs and want to get out of the schools many prepharmers are desperate to attend. competition is good but many here are overestimating themselves and the job outlook and hopefully other posters here bring more objective, rational, calm dose dose of reality to potential future pharmacists.

hope this helps!

One of the best messages ever written on this forum! Bravo!!

 

[Retail rph 1997]

One of the best messages ever written on this forum! Bravo!!

You are exactly right. Theses poor kids are going to be so disappointed.

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

You are exactly right. Theses poor kids are going to be so disappointed.

The only way they'll learn is by first hand experience. No matter how much we preach, they'll continue their quest to become a pharmacist to make that six figure income. 🙄

 

[Retail rph 1997]

The only way they'll learn is by first hand experience. No matter how much we preach, they'll continue their quest to become a pharmacist to make that six figure income. 🙄

I know I teach pharmacology at the college and I'm amazed how clueless they are. I tell each class that I'm also a pharmacist manager for a large chain in this area and we have no need for them. I tell them to become an NP or PA because they are making 6 figures now. They all look shocked because they don't want to hear the truth. All of my fellow professors are also shocked when I tell them we will be taking 2 students out of a class of 100 or so, but many of them are trapped in academia and aren't out in the real world. it is bad out there especially for new grads and pharmacists over 50

 

[Retail rph 1997]

Have you worked with an intern from D'Youville College yet? What are your thoughts on their work ethic, knowledge base, etc.? I wouldn't be surprised if you said their students were the ones that needed to be REALLY micromanaged out of all the jokers in your region.

Not sure if I responded to this yet. D'youville is a private college in Buffalo that opened a pharmacy school to collect cash from students who couldn't get into UB or Wegmans School of Pharmacy. The wegmans school is expensive, and the students are very qualified, but jobs around here are tough to get so they usually have to move out of state

 

[SanMateoRph]

saturation is due to so many private schools opening and hurting the public schools. i heard even though schools start closing that it will take many years like 10 or more years to fix the job market

 

[JayHawks1983]

I don't like using the internet for something to guide my career, but I have seen a common theme in pharmacy in different sources such as conversations with pharmacists and subjective sources such as this forum and others. Those words are oversaturation, pay decline, tuition not justifying the decision to attend pharmacy school. Does anyone have a reasonable input on this situation?

 

[Retail rph 1997]

I don't like using the internet for something to guide my career, but I have seen a common theme in pharmacy in different sources such as conversations with pharmacists and subjective sources such as this forum and others. Those words are oversaturation, pay decline, tuition not justifying the decision to attend pharmacy school. Does anyone have a reasonable input on this situation?

I'm a DM and this is the truth. The field is way over saturated. That is good for me and bad for new students and old pharmacists. I like to joke around on this site, but the pharmacist career is in the past. We offered our new grads 47/hr part time jobs and they took it. I just threw it out there expecting them to come back with 55 but no one did

 

[O.State]

welp, looks like I might defer my acceptance and scholarships and take a look at some PA programs. you guys are depressing the hell out of me lol

 

[RxStudentatUB]

welp, looks like I might defer my acceptance and scholarships and take a look at some PA programs. you guys are depressing the hell out of me lol

I thought these were troll posts when I first went through all these posts, but I have asked around pharmacists in my neighborhood during shadowing that have all agreed with these viewpoints. I also got accepted to Univ of Michigan and Univ of Minnesota but I don't know what to do anymore.

 

[MatCauthon]

I thought these were troll posts when I first went through all these posts, but I have asked around pharmacists in my neighborhood during shadowing that have all agreed with these viewpoints. I also got accepted to Univ of Michigan and Univ of Minnesota but I don't know what to do anymore.

No recent graduate disagrees with the content of this post

 

[darknightzzz]

No recent graduate disagrees with the content of this post

obviously so for 3 reasons.

1. they are still looking for jobs hoping to get in (this usually take 2-3 months, more or less)

2. very few recently graduated pharmD confess on here due to their ego and their already stress from 200K

3. they are too busy working part time.

 

[deleted158872]

I thought these were troll posts when I first went through all these posts, but I have asked around pharmacists in my neighborhood during shadowing that have all agreed with these viewpoints. I also got accepted to Univ of Michigan and Univ of Minnesota but I don't know what to do anymore.

no need to go on the internet. just look for pharmacy jobs around you.

 

[MatCauthon]

no need to go on the internet. just look for pharmacy jobs around you. i'm unable to find a summer intern position BECAUSE NO ONE IS HIRING in my hometown, despite having all the big chains there!

Tech cuts are a precursor to intern cuts. I know at least one chain that has completely cut back on paid interns.

 

[Jibby321]

no need to go on the internet. just look for pharmacy jobs around you. i'm unable to find a summer intern position BECAUSE NO ONE IS HIRING in my hometown, despite having all the big chains there!

Pretty much everyone in my class has an internship. If they wanted hospital they got hospital if they wanted retail that's what they got. And this is in a very desirable area in florida.

 

[UGAZ]

Pretty much everyone in my class has an internship. If they wanted hospital they got hospital if they wanted retail that's what they got. And this is in a very desirable area in florida.

Did you mean unpaid internship?

 

[Jibby321]

Did you mean unpaid internship?

No. They are paid.

 

[UGAZ]

No. They are paid.

Please PM me the location so I can forward it to my friends /students in Florida....

 

[Retail rph 1997]

no need to go on the internet. just look for pharmacy jobs around you. i'm unable to find a summer intern position BECAUSE NO ONE IS HIRING in my hometown, despite having all the big chains there!

I haven't been on in a while, but I thought I update everyone on the dismall state of affairs in pharmacy for New York State. For DMs like me it is awesome because I get 40 applications for every position. But I have to speak out about what Wegmans did to their pharmacy students this year. They offered no jobs to any of them. They opened up their own pharmacy school and didn't take a single one of their interns. Really feel bad for you guys. I'm friends with a DM there and he said there were no open positions

 

[Sugoi Travis]

Pretty much everyone in my class has an internship. If they wanted hospital they got hospital if they wanted retail that's what they got. And this is in a very desirable area in florida.

I guess it pays to be in the top pharmacy school in Florida. I'm a bit south from where you are, but down here I'd say maybe less than half of my class has a paid internship.

 

[RxStudentatUB]

I haven't been on in a while, but I thought I update everyone on the dismall state of affairs in pharmacy for New York State. For DMs like me it is awesome because I get 40 applications for every position. But I have to speak out about what Wegmans did to their pharmacy students this year. They offered no jobs to any of them. They opened up their own pharmacy school and didn't take a single one of their interns. Really feel bad for you guys. I'm friends with a DM there and he said there were no open positions

Yet, the governor of NY state decided it was necessary to fund the opening of two new state schools by 2017. I have not been in the area served by Wegman's but it is my understanding that sparsely populated towns such as Ithaca and Rochester are home to this company. If sparsely populated markets in New York are hit hard like this, imagine how worse the situation is in the metropolitan area of New York?

 

[Jibby321]

I guess it pays to be in the top pharmacy school in Florida. I'm a bit south from where you are, but down here I'd say maybe less than half of my class has a paid internship.

Yea. I'm sure that helps. Large alumni base also doesn't hurt either I imangine.

 

[YF786]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930253/

I've seen postings of Dan Brown's article a lot but not sure if this other article has been posted here and I find it relevant to all the doom and gloom threads these days.

For prepharmers, I highly recommend this paper. While with any paper there are limitations, it would be very wise to listen to those posting who have actual experience, are currently working, and have a much better understanding of the current job climate since they are experiencing it and you are not even in pharmacy school yet! If you don't believe them, then here! More actual Research!! I know when I started school, I had no idea about jobs or even thought about it. I just thought of having fun, enjoying school life, thinking it'd all be fine. Well like many others i'm sure, wish i had more awareness, fear, desperation that would make me more serious about grabbing opportunity and making connections and making the most out of school. Yet even if you do get a high gpa, make connections, there may be no openings or opportunities so be willing to relocate, which many aren't.

While many prepharmers are adamant on pursuing pharmacy, some here want to just let you all know things aren't what they seem and based on projected trend and our "biased" experiences, there is very strong probability that when you graduate, it will be much worse. Those who are older are watching you all make decisions that could lead you to real financial distress. Like many of you, I've seen people desperate and unable to pay back student loans, I've seen people crying and panic after they realize they have no way to pay it back and ignore it hoping it'll disappear. fortunately for current students in this field, there's still some opportunity before the tunnel shuts but when most people on this side of the forum graduate, it's going to be a much tighter job market than you will expect. not impossible but do lower your expectations and don't set your hopes too high.

A big concern is the debt and ability to pay it back many will take. Salaries are stagnant (for almost all professions), jobs are scarcer (trust me i browse the job boards to feel the market in my area) and tuition is rising, we all know this and there's no sign of stopping. it'd pain me to see many of you lose respect for the profession once you graduate and turn bitter (like some here) because things were not what you expected. but do understand the huge financial risk you (or your parents if you're lucky) are taking. some of you will say we're trying to scare you away for fear of our jobs. but really i feel sorry for you or your parents droppings hundreds of thousands of dollars for your future, riding their hopes, dreams, pride on you only for it be a poor investment because you did not heed the importance of taking school seriously. (so if someone says don't matter how you did in school, you just need a degree, then IGNORE THEM, it MATTERS now you actually have to FIGHT for a job now and fighting might not even be enough in 4 years). i like pharmacy and none of us are afraid of you guys tbh the quality ive seen is getting lower (even including myself), more afraid of you taking astronomical debt and can't pay it back, last time that happened, you were toddlers but we had a pretty big recession we still havent recovered from. and this time there's no asset to collect

the last president said "everyone should have a home" and eased mortgages, lending money, especially to people who cannot afford. guess what happened? now "everyone should have education" and eased student loans, lending, especially to people who will pursue jobs no longer there or some schools say for jobs that don't exist now but will in the future (what a joke!) moral of these lessons? not everyone deserves a house, not everyone deserves an education, not everyone deserves to be doctor of pharmacy simply because you can take out loans and hold a pencil the right way. again think about the risk and your ability to pay back and avoid default. can you afford the risk? are you really a stellar student? do you have family? kids? other events that can hold you back from finding a job anywhere in the country? even congress/lord obama are trying to rein in uncontrolled student loans, why? cause of the horror studies and ruined lives and a significant number of pharmacy students are poised to join those ranks of students. so mind the risk. also remember, pharmacy isn't the only field out there, there's so much to actually do don't just limit yourself to pharmacy.

fwiw, a reputable school i know of had 70% find employment at graduation, but 1/2 of that 70% were not "real" jobs (they were post grad training, residencies, fellowships, etc). So roughly 35% of the class actually got the 6 figure job many prepharmers are looking for and who knows how long you'll stay there before you're laid off, as many at chains know. compared to other fields right now like literature, that's pretty damn good actually but it was only 5-6 years ago that near 100% could find jobs. so w/more schools, less demand, bigger classes, and 4 years of thousands of pharmacists already struggling for jobs and ahead of you, how do you fancy your chances? just don't get your hopes up and prepare for some disappointment. my goal isn't to scare you but for you to understand the risk. so is pharmacy school worth it? i would ask, "is pharmacy school worth the risk?" because many things are uncertain and from my experience, luck and coincidence play a big role at times for getting a job and sometimes it just works out. sometimes not.

so if your love for pharmacy overrides all these concerns, my advice to you is
- get a tech job during school ( i still can't believe there are students whose only work experience are from rotations, if you're worried driving 100 miles for a 8.25/hr job at CVS will hurt your grades and you got no other opportunity, take it anyway! and if you know how hard it is to find a tech job in your area, think how hard it is for pharmacists!)
- treat rotations like job interviews (give it everything you got, write thank you cards, not sure gifts are good idea, it'd make me uncomfortable, even if they don't offer you job, you can get LOR)
- think outside box: pharmacy isn't just retail or hospital/clinical. there's managed care, industry, mtm, LTC, nuclear, infusion, specialty, mail order, and err that's probably it. PMH maybe too?
- willing to relocate - im surprised many don't do this, guess it's because of desirable area and wanting to be near friends you made in school but be willing to relocate
- accept lower working conditions - be okay w/working in real crap areas you have no choice, you picked the profession, know the risks.
- balance school life - don't just focus on grades, focus on shaping yourself for career, be involved (but not too overly involved)
- save money, if not on tuition then on your lifestyle, get used books, rent cheap, eat cheap, drive cheap, everything cheap. get scholarships, y.
- pick a school that will train you well and has reputation and history. preferably if it does actual research (usually big publics will have better reputation and slightly more morals and hold itself to higher standards than your greedy diploma mill don't give a crap about you private school that opened in last 10 years. even if public school has higher increase in tuition than private according to article, it's still cheaper and scholarships can help dent it down. quality of students in better schools also improve quality of your connections). IMO and probably many others some may disagree but overall, the private schools recently opened are poor quality, not established, and the students admitted often are poor quality or poorly trained and crap rotation sites if newly opened in saturated area. if you think about attending those types of for-profit schools and take that huge debt, well i feel maybe you are kind of an idiot a bit. those schools accept your money, you're responsible for paying it back, and you assume 100% of the RISK, THEY don't care, they got your MONEY!
- don't be fooled by job postings like on monster, indeed, etc, many already have candidates and are required to post by government, even if no actual job is there
- it's not "the sky is falling" right now, 4 years later could possibly be like that maybe but better than other fields. there are jobs, it's just a lot harder than it used to be and the number of unemployed keeps increasing, if you think you're a superstar, go for it, if you're a lazy person thinking this is easy path to 6 figures like some pharmacists in the not so distant past, then you're more likely to be screwed....hard....unless you are willing to work anywhere in the country, anytime of day, for any amount of money no matter how low, then you would probably guaranteed to find a job.
- understand the risk and increasing difficulty of finding work happening now and near 100% in the future, will change how you treat pharmacy school and whether you even decide if worth attending anymore
- understand long-term, can you work or will there be work till you're 50? baby boomers will die out and demand will drop DRAMATICALLY! what will you do then?
- then there's robots but that no one can predict.
- geography and luck matters a lot! hard work can increase your chance of good luck

some pharmacy students are real stellar, very bright, hard working, and if i had jobs to give them i would. but increasing number of students are unqualified, not very bright, poor economic background but want dreamy, easy rich life and this type of student is increasing, in part b/c of these private, for profit schools being driven and expanded by these students helped by easier access to student loans and a signature and there's clear difference in quality. some students in these private for profits i know of are already complaining about poor quality of programs and want to get out of the schools many prepharmers are desperate to attend. competition is good but many here are overestimating themselves and the job outlook and hopefully other posters here bring more objective, rational, calm dose dose of reality to potential future pharmacists.

hope this helps!

Thank you so much for writing this. I wish luck to everybody but what you have stated is the honest truth! I have been accepted into schools but won't attending because of the fear of loans. Looking into other professions.

 

[cj98]

Hi! I recently graduated from a for-profit pharmacy school in California last week. I was just browsing around seeing what pre-pharmacy students are like these days and wanted to offer my advice from personal experience. If you have any questions about pharmacy school, rotations, internships during school, or my plans after graduation, feel free to PM me.

-Before you decide to go to pharmacy school, make sure you are going into it for the right reasons and that you really love pharmacy. It is a huge investment of your time and money. I went straight after undergrad and didn't really think about the future when I applied. This was a huge mistake on my part, and I don't want any of you do make the same mistake. I got very lucky and stumbled upon a pharmacy internship my first year of pharmacy school and got to work with a new pharmacist/manager who was not tainted with cynicism yet. 😛 He spent so much time mentoring me, and that's how I ended up liking pharmacy. However, I feel very sad towards my classmates who went into school thinking it will be an easy 6 figure salary and just went through the 4 years with no passion towards their career.

-If you actually end up in pharmacy school, it is more important to work than focus solely on school. People will tell you to just study hard, but once your last year of school comes, and you don't have any solid plans after graduation, it will be very scary. You actually get so much more from work than sitting through classes because it will be your time to network, get references, and apply your knowledge. It is very doable too. I'm not a genius, but I worked on average 24 hours a week during school/rotations, and graduated with honors. Sadly, it is hard to find pharmacy internships these days, so also plan to spend a lot of time looking for internships during pharmacy school.

-Be prepared to be flexible and move around for a job after pharmacy school. I would say the majority of my classmates who got jobs are the ones who were willing to move, didn't have obligations, or went to another state. My classmates who were restricted to certain areas because of family or other reasons are still unemployed and looking for jobs. If you want to go into retail pharmacy (which most people will end up doing), be prepared to float and know you won't be guaranteed full time hours, especially if you work in a saturated area. A few years from now, I think most pharmacist will have to settle with part time jobs. These threads you read on SDN about pharmacy saturation are NOT lies. I was offered a full time pharmacy job in California, but not at my preferred location. I now have to be in a long distance relationship until I find another job or the boyfriend decides to move to where I am.

I think pharmacy is still a good profession, but the future of pharmacy will be tough with all these new grads like me coming out. Tuition goes up each year and jobs are hard to come across. You might think you'll be okay because you're a hard worker, but most of your classmates are the same way. You'll have to find ways to make yourself stand out, network like crazy, and work a ton of hours after school/on weekends to get your foot into a company.

 

[Retail rph 1997]

A lot of the problem this year is also the profit margins. We no longer make money in the pharmacy. Generic drug costs have risen so much that there is no profit. Our company's goal is to break even in the pharmacy and sell goods in the rest of the store. It explains Target getting out of the pharmacy business all together. CVS bought those pharmacies for 1 million dollars each which means as a whole they were not profitable. I expect Walmart to follow soon. Oh and by the way that is about 2000 more pharmacists that won't have a job by next year.

 

[RxStudentatUB]

A lot of the problem this year is also the profit margins. We no longer make money in the pharmacy. Generic drug costs have risen so much that there is no profit. Our company's goal is to break even in the pharmacy and sell goods in the rest of the store. It explains Target getting out of the pharmacy business all together. CVS bought those pharmacies for 1 million dollars each which means as a whole they were not profitable. I expect Walmart to follow soon. Oh and by the way that is about 2000 more pharmacists that won't have a job by next year.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/cvs-to-buy-targets-pharmacy-business-for-19-billion-2015-06-15