Pharmacy school tuition... The biggest scam on earth.

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UGAZ

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I almost flip off my chair when a friend of mine sent me the current pharmacy school tuition at some California campuses. 76K a year ??? Seriously?? OMG.. .. You need a head exam if you actually still want to be a pharmacist with these crazy tuition. That's like my mortgage.

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It seems like tuition would be going down, not up when you consider the number of new grads willing to work as professors. The classes are also smaller than 5 years ago. Maybe the class sizes would be bigger if they didn't charge 79k
 
I think this is the main reason for the decline in quality of applicants. Anyone with a tiny bit of financial sense is not going to borrow $300,000 for a $120,000 job.
 
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Two of my techs (at 2 different stores) are going to USC this fall hahaha. I told them not to do it but they are adamant USC will take care of them, whatever that means. They will be in for a shock not finding employment after graduating with 300k loans.
 
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Two of my techs (at 2 different stores) are going to USC this fall hahaha. I told them not to do it but they are adamant USC will take care of them, whatever that means. They will be in for a shock not finding employment after graduating with 300k loans.

I admit I know nothing about the costs of running a pharmacy school but I would imagine it doesn't nearly cost this much. My tuition and fees was $2500 a semester at a public school. The return on this has been great. In order to make $100,000 in tuition and fees a year give the same return your salary would have to be 20 million a year.
 
Just don't try to go to the class threads for USC, Pacific, Chapman, and others and point this information out. They will tell you to mind your own business and not to deflate their 'dream.'
 
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Yeah, but have you seen the Rec Centers and the Dining Halls? I wanted those things when I was a student! But, also, we all had to show up to class as there was no technology, so we got what we came for.

For the public universities, the investment in them has declined as that money has been rededicated to meeting pension obligations and Medicaid matching grants in most states. As pension obligations increase, there will be less invested in our young. Do you wonder why our Millennials aren't doing their fair share, Boomers? No jobs and no investment.
 
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I admit I know nothing about the costs of running a pharmacy school but I would imagine it doesn't nearly cost this much. My tuition and fees was $2500 a semester at a public school. The return on this has been great. In order to make $100,000 in tuition and fees a year give the same return your salary would have to be 20 million a year.

Roughly, it costs around $9-13k per undergraduate a year if you run a 60-70 member graduating class (most of the variance is actually on administrative overhead and sites rather than faculty salaries). These estimations are kind of from what I read in the state submission reports for the Midwest. It is relatively a lot less than it used to be due to the decrease in laboratory requirements (pharmacy students used to have pharmaceutical analysis and much more time in the compounding lab before the relaxation of the standards). If your tuition is less than $15k, you should thank the taxpayers for subsidizing you. If your tuition is greater than $20k, it's being used to fund other objectives. But private school, it charges you what you will bear. I'd draw the line personally at one year's income, but others may disagree.
 
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to be honest, this is actually a good thing for the profession, and i am not trying to be sarcastic here. Imagine all the californian pharmacy schools all charge 70k+ a year regardless of public or private schools, the cost will scare off most qualified applicants and persuade them to try harder and apply to med schools instead. For those who aren't so academically prepared and qualified, if they really wanna do this, then let them do it and pay that much for their schooling. After they graduate, they will work as slaves retail pharmacists to pay off their student loans and be miserable and bitter about it, and they will be more likely to spread the words of the nasty working state about their jobs and burn out quickly. Such a race to the bottom of the barrel will eventually push enough qualified students not to apply in the first place, until the schools admit totally unqualified candidates who can't even pass NAPLEX, then they will either severely cut their enrollment numbers or shut their doors.

This is what is actually happening to many law schools and law graduates. Eventually, the market will reach equilibrium. So, all this being said, I wish all californian pharmacy schools keep increasing their tuition cost by 10k-20k a year, really, the more tuition the schools keep charging year by year, the more likely we are gonna see the end of the glut, so let's wait and see the market adjust itself. :)
 
to be honest, this is actually a good thing for the profession, and i am not trying to be sarcastic here. Imagine all the californian pharmacy schools all charge 70k+ a year regardless of public or private schools, the cost will scare off most qualified applicants and persuade them to try harder and apply to med schools instead. For those who aren't so academically prepared and qualified, if they really wanna do this, then let them do it and pay that much for their schooling. After they graduate, they will work as slaves retail pharmacists to pay off their student loans and be miserable and bitter about it, and they will be more likely to spread the words of the nasty working state about their jobs and burn out quickly. Such a race to the bottom of the barrel will eventually push enough qualified students not to apply in the first place, until the schools admit totally unqualified candidates who can't even pass NAPLEX, then they will either severely cut their enrollment numbers or shut their doors.

This is what is actually happening to many law schools and law graduates. Eventually, the market will reach equilibrium. So, all this being said, I wish all californian pharmacy schools keep increasing their tuition cost by 10k-20k a year, really, the more tuition the schools keep charging year by year, the more likely we are gonna see the end of the glut, so let's wait and see the market adjust itself. :)

We have been informing them of the saturation and horror stories in retail for years, yet they will just argue that "there is more to pharmacy than just retail" and "I am going to work hard and stand out so I don't have to end up in retail in the middle of nowhere."

The market will eventually correct and improve but the question is when. The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. When you're $200k+ in debt and scraping by on <30 hours per week you cannot afford for the market to be depressed for 10 years.
 
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We have been informing them of the saturation and horror stories in retail for years, yet they will just argue that "there is more to pharmacy than just retail" and "I am going to work hard and stand out so I don't have to end up in retail in the middle of nowhere."

The market will eventually correct and improve but the question is when. The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. When you're $200k+ in debt and scraping by on <30 hours per week you cannot afford for the market to be depressed for 10 years.

When people are so financially dumb to take that much of a risk for an education that no longer guarantees anything, LET THEM DO IT, and Don't stop them! Let them do whatever they want, and wait for the market to adjust. I personally don't have much sympathy towards people who have no idea what they are signing up for. If those graduates have trouble finding work, bad for them cuz they never listen! It's like law school applicants having no idea their job prospects are before taking LSAT and sending out applications. They get what they deserve.

A side personal note, I am from California, yet I am doing pharmacy school in Canada. I didn't even apply to ANY Californian pharmacy schools despite my good academic records and exam scores cuz I did my financial homework. My school is a top school, yet only charges 20k CAD a year for tuition, which like 15k USD a year right now. And I just checked yesterday, I only owed 21k CAD to the Canadian National Student Loan Service Center for the past 2 years of pharmacy school, so probably i will end up with 42-43k CAD by the time i graduate. mind you, I also got a few grands of *grant* for which i don't have to pay back. In addition, this loan is interest-free as long as i am still in school, and the current interest rate 6 months after I graduate is 3.3% annually.

I am not trying to boast myself, just to make a point that many people these days have no idea what they are trying to sign up for, and they are too naive about the intent of existence for any university or school, either public or private. Schools exist not to do charity, but to teach a bunch of useless crap and sell that diploma for a lump sum! It is totally up to an individual to do all the due diligence and acquire the actual skills in-demand like programming and data science while in school. Schools really don't give a damn about the career outcome of their graduates.
 
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The market will eventually correct and improve but the question is when. The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. When you're $200k+ in debt and scraping by on <30 hours per week you cannot afford for the market to be depressed for 10 years.

Life’s given to no man outright; all must borrow.
-Lucretius: On the Nature of Things


Actually, you can afford to be depressed. The Germans, South Koreans, and Japanese prove that amply. You'll just stay in debt slavery forever just like them. There's three levels of the economy: autarky (self-sufficiency but cannot participate in the markets), market (that's us where we get currency and spend it due to our economic specialization), and capitalist (hire servants and own assets that control those servants). They'll just stop participating in the market economy and be precarious. From farmer to farmer, I suppose if you have land. But being urban poor, there's ways to live, just not nice ways. Walk through Baltimore (Baltimore or Fayette west of MLK) for details.
 
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Wow UoP has increased over $10k per semester in just the last 4 years from when I started.
 
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Life’s given to no man outright; all must borrow.
-Lucretius: On the Nature of Things


Actually, you can afford to be depressed. The Germans, South Koreans, and Japanese prove that amply. You'll just stay in debt slavery forever just like them. There's three levels of the economy: autarky (self-sufficiency but cannot participate in the markets), market (that's us where we get currency and spend it due to our economic specialization), and capitalist (hire servants and own assets that control those servants). They'll just stop participating in the market economy and be precarious. From farmer to farmer, I suppose if you have land. But being urban poor, there's ways to live, just not nice ways. Walk through Baltimore (Baltimore or Fayette west of MLK) for details.

Interesting...... Having lived in Baltimore and the DC Metro area, as well as other parts of the U.S., I can tell you that the urban poor is part of every American city.

And as far as Germans being depressed, in reference to a poor choice in career. There is no such thing as a German with school loans in the amount that are described in these posts.
 
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In state schools bring the cost to about 20-25K in tuition per year, keep your cost of living down, you could get away with 20K in living expenses. So your looking at 45K/year, so 45K multiplied by 4 is roughly 180K. I'd say that is still worth it, considering Pharmacy grosses 110-120K/year (80-90K after taxes). Live off of 30K-40K/year, pay 50k+ to debt, be out of debt in 5 years.

However, if you are paying anywhere close to 65K/year to go to pharmacy school, Id say thats a no go.
 
We have been informing them of the saturation and horror stories in retail for years, yet they will just argue that "there is more to pharmacy than just retail" and "I am going to work hard and stand out so I don't have to end up in retail in the middle of nowhere."

My favorite newbie quote. I've seen it on here over and over the last ten years. The optimism of youth never ceases to amaze me!
 
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Wow UoP has increased over $10k per semester in just the last 4 years from when I started.

Seems like most schools I've looked into have gone up 2-3k/year on average the last 4-5 years.
 
Don't forget residencies. You know...that ingenious ploy where they get employees to take less than half the typical pay to go through training.
 
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I think this is the main reason for the decline in quality of applicants. Anyone with a tiny bit of financial sense is not going to borrow $300,000 for a $120,000 job.

If only the 120k figure was a guarantee. I precept students who need to stay local and are settling for 24-32 hour froms chains who get used and abused
 
We have been informing them of the saturation and horror stories in retail for years, yet they will just argue that "there is more to pharmacy than just retail" and "I am going to work hard and stand out so I don't have to end up in retail in the middle of nowhere."

The market will eventually correct and improve but the question is when. The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. When you're $200k+ in debt and scraping by on <30 hours per week you cannot afford for the market to be depressed for 10 years.
Another problem is bankruptcy has all been removed as a solution for most of these students. But these new grads will be on the market for the next 40 years.
 
I am an upcoming P1 in one of the Texas schools and my tuition is only 13k per year :) :rofl:
 
Don't forget residencies. You know...that ingenious ploy where they get employees to take less than half the typical pay to go through training.
You know this is debatable. It isn't always worth it/necessary, it depends where you end up after that will justify it or not.
 
You know this is debatable. It isn't always worth it/necessary, it depends where you end up after that will justify it or not.

No it isn't. Before the 00s, people still became very competent clinical specialists. But they got paid the full rate when they were learning on the job. It's all a giant scam in which hospitals have colluded to push the cost of training upon labor by requiring that people go through their discounted (to them) training programs.
 
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No it isn't. Before the 00s, people still became very competent clinical specialists. But they got paid the full rate when they were learning on the job. It's all a giant scam in which hospitals have colluded to push the cost of training upon labor by requiring that people go through their discounted (to them) training programs.

Believe it or not, I was hired in within the past decade at a hospital in a large metro area despite not having a residency. They even gave me on the job training - very thorough, month+ length side by side training, all while being paid my full salary. I was allowed to work in critical care, oncology, NICU, all sorts of specialty areas without having a PGY2.

Of course, they now have their own residency program so I'm getting the culture has shifted. It's probably an absolute necessity now. Unthinkable to place someone without fifteen residencies in any of these critical areas. PGY2 required to check Pyxis carts.
 
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Believe it or not, I was hired in within the past decade at a hospital in a large metro area despite not having a residency. They even gave me on the job training - very thorough, month+ length side by side training, all while being paid my full salary. I was allowed to work in critical care, oncology, NICU, all sorts of specialty areas without having a PGY2.

Of course, they now have their own residency program so I'm getting the culture has shifted. It's probably an absolute necessity now. Unthinkable to place someone without fifteen residencies in any of these critical areas. PGY2 required to check Pyxis carts.

It's sad. I too was fortunate (although we don't have all those areas and I am in just one speciality). I would say 2 of the best most efficient pharmacists we have aren't residency trained and were hired in past 5 years. Residency training definitely furthers knowledge base, fixing efficiency/confidence/OCD issues is a whole other story.

Did anyone catch the new ASHP requirements for precepting. Have to be board certified (unless you have a scope of practice like VA's). What a joke literally forcing you to take an expensive test and pay money yearly to maintain license that THEY make money on to be a preceptor for a resident.
 
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But your job prospects will be zero.

I wonder how many of us would go to pharmacy school if it was free these days? I know I wouldn't, but it's an interesting question.
 
With zero job prospects, $10k in loans from a coding bootcamp >>>>>>>>> $50-300k in loans from pharmacy school

I am 100% agree with the importance of learning how to program well and probably even building advanced machine learning skills on top of that, since that's exactly what I am aiming to do by the time I graduate in 2020. I think all pharmacy students should learn programming and be good at it. No doubt about that. But with barely any debt, in the range of 40k-50k total for a terminal 4-year doctoral clinical degree, it's not a shady deal at all. After all, employers, namely those HR folks, still value that piece of diploma paper for career entry and advancement, even in the IT field.

Coding bootcamps are good for their value of money for now, but who knows what happens after 10 years? Maybe pharmacy bounces back, maybe even law bounces back. Maybe Amazon crushes CVS and dominates the pharmacy field and suddenly opens up a huge list of positions requiring pharmacists with IT skills. No one can predict the future, so don't bet everything in coding bootcamps either, just like you don't want to bet on pharmacy schools. Instead, prepare for all possibilities, just don't spend that much time on pharmacy courses. Do enough to pass the classes and pass the NAPLEX, and devote vast majority of extracurricular time during that 4 years elsewhere, like programming. If someone manages the time well, that's certainly possible.

Actually, why coding bootcamps? Last time I checked, Udacity nanodegrees cost <1k each one. With 2 years of dedication and a bit determination while in pharmacy school and 10k funds, you can pretty much earn all their certificates and build a killer portfolio that can help you land interviews almost anywhere in tech.
 
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Two of my techs (at 2 different stores) are going to USC this fall hahaha. I told them not to do it but they are adamant USC will take care of them, whatever that means. They will be in for a shock not finding employment after graduating with 300k loans.

I've told my tech and intern about a couple years ago. I've warned others too but they are naive and think they are unicorn and it won't happen to them. After they graduate, some come to me asking if my place is hiring (competitive hospital with excellent benefits). Some was able to find a job in retail but only with horrible hours and worsen working condition.
 
I am 100% agree with the importance of learning how to program well and probably even building advanced machine learning skills on top of that, since that's exactly what I am aiming to do by the time I graduate in 2020. I think all pharmacy students should learn programming and be good at it. No doubt about that. But with barely any debt, in the range of 40k-50k total for a terminal 4-year doctoral clinical degree, it's not a shady deal at all. After all, employers, namely those HR folks, still value that piece of diploma paper for career entry and advancement, even in the IT field.

Coding bootcamps are good for their value of money for now, but who knows what happens after 10 years? Maybe pharmacy bounces back, maybe even law bounces back. Maybe Amazon crushes CVS and dominates the pharmacy field and suddenly opens up a huge list of positions requiring pharmacists with IT skills. No one can predict the future, so don't bet everything in coding bootcamps either, just like you don't want to bet on pharmacy schools. Instead, prepare for all possibilities, just don't spend that much time on pharmacy courses. Do enough to pass the classes and pass the NAPLEX, and devote vast majority of extracurricular time during that 4 years elsewhere, like programming. If someone manages the time well, that's certainly possible.

Actually, why coding bootcamps? Last time I checked, Udacity nanodegrees cost <1k each one. With 2 years of dedication and a bit determination while in pharmacy school and 10k funds, you can pretty much earn all their certificates and build a killer portfolio that can help you land interviews almost anywhere in tech.

Is there a niche for pharmacists with programming skills? Those seem like a rare breed.
 
I am 100% agree with the importance of learning how to program well and probably even building advanced machine learning skills on top of that, since that's exactly what I am aiming to do by the time I graduate in 2020. I think all pharmacy students should learn programming and be good at it. No doubt about that. But with barely any debt, in the range of 40k-50k total for a terminal 4-year doctoral clinical degree, it's not a shady deal at all. After all, employers, namely those HR folks, still value that piece of diploma paper for career entry and advancement, even in the IT field.

Coding bootcamps are good for their value of money for now, but who knows what happens after 10 years? Maybe pharmacy bounces back, maybe even law bounces back. Maybe Amazon crushes CVS and dominates the pharmacy field and suddenly opens up a huge list of positions requiring pharmacists with IT skills. No one can predict the future, so don't bet everything in coding bootcamps either, just like you don't want to bet on pharmacy schools. Instead, prepare for all possibilities, just don't spend that much time on pharmacy courses. Do enough to pass the classes and pass the NAPLEX, and devote vast majority of extracurricular time during that 4 years elsewhere, like programming. If someone manages the time well, that's certainly possible.

Actually, why coding bootcamps? Last time I checked, Udacity nanodegrees cost <1k each one. With 2 years of dedication and a bit determination while in pharmacy school and 10k funds, you can pretty much earn all their certificates and build a killer portfolio that can help you land interviews almost anywhere in tech.
As one who went from pharmacy to IT, I don't know if alot of pharmacy students are good with computers. If you don't want to do pharmacy, the next best thing are PA or MD.
 
I wonder how many of us would go to pharmacy school if it was free these days? I know I wouldn't, but it's an interesting question.
I never actually minded pharmacy school. Some of the course was very interesting but had nothing to do with retail pharmacy. I think most people just don't like being treated by dirty by whatever bum happens to walk in their pharmacy.
 
As one who went from pharmacy to IT, I don't know if alot of pharmacy students are good with computers. If you don't want to do pharmacy, the next best thing are PA or MD.

MD? With their sky high tuition and years of training post graduation, unless you specialize in ROAD, there is really not that much money there. Also, they aren't immune to saturation either. Well-trained medical fellows also face the reality most pharmacists have to face today: relocate to where the job/demand are vs. take a pay cut and stay where is desirable to live. Also their horrible life-work balance, and don't forget their liability insurance~ some are well above 6 figures per year for certain specialties.

PA? Lower entry barrier will eventually flood the market. Their rosy days are numbered. I personally know several high school/college-bound kids who said they wanted to do PA. If you think pharmacy is bad enough, PA will end up a lot worse than pharmacy.

Sidenote: I worked 1.5 year in a well-known biotech/pharma company before heading back for pharmacy, so I witnessed their big push towards big data analytics and machine learning/deep learning to help make various tough scientific/business decisions. I didn't have much prior programming background, but in the past 1-2 years of pharmacy school, I spent ~75% my time doing programming exercises, and I started with learning basic basic syntax, and now I am working on projects implementing various complex algorithms. My pharmacy school courseload is quite stressful, but I did enough to pass all of them with ease. TBH, I found CS to be a lot more enjoyable than various therapeutics modules. I never liked the curriculum, but since I am already here, why not making a good use of the time to learn in-demand skills? I decided to do pharmacy cuz I calculated the PharmD degree, that piece of diploma paper, brings the best value of buck to advance my career than any other options, including MD/PA/PhD/MBA, given my school's tuition, and I never planned to work full-time as a pharmacist in future, probably just part-time during weekends and holidays to cover my living expenses so that I can invest all of my earning from my regular 9-5 weekday job.
 
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I have family/friends with several years of experience in tech…they can’t even scratch a 100K income. Not to mention outsourcing, H1-B’s, and hiring of external “consultants” all there to safeguard the company’s bottom line. This is the reality of the IT industry. Why would a company hire a FTE when they can get better labor (someone with a Masters in CS from India) for less money and less risk? At least with pharmacy a LICENSE is REQUIRED. There is no license requirement for tech which results in a flood of cheap labor abroad and domestic to fulfill all IT needs. Only exception to this being of course the Bay Area superstars (e.g. Facebook, Google, Apple). These guys just hire straight from Ivy League schools down the road (Stanford, Harvard, etc.). Salary comparison: Average Tech salary (outside of BayArea) range is 45-70K. The 100K+ salaries are exclusive to Bay Area…and in Bay Area a 232sqft apartment sells for $425,000. Therefore, even if you were the rockstar programmer a 100K salary in Bay Area wouldn’t buy you ****, unless you chose to live out of a van, which some actually have resorted to doing. Best career option, or bang for your buck I should say, right now in my opinion is either NP (with all the various career roles it allows) or PA, there is a healthcare provider shortage in this country and its bound to get worse, plus there’s talk that PAs will soon be able to work/prescribe independently (that is without the supervision of a medical doctor), which will be HUGE.
 
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License means nothing. Research this forum. They are being printed at a faster clip then driver's licenses. There's a lot more to a job than the 6 figure salary which in pharmacy is disappearing. Outsourcing is a concern, nothing much prevents this from happening in pharmacy though. One change of board regs and all the remote rxs will be verified in India.
 
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I have family/friends with several years of experience in tech…they can’t even scratch a 100K income. Not to mention outsourcing, H1-B’s, and hiring of external “consultants” all there to safeguard the company’s bottom line. This is the reality of the IT industry. Why would a company hire a FTE when they can get better labor (someone with a Masters in CS from India) for less money and less risk? At least with pharmacy a LICENSE is REQUIRED. There is no license requirement for tech which results in a flood of cheap labor abroad and domestic to fulfill all IT needs. Only exception to this being of course the Bay Area superstars (e.g. Facebook, Google, Apple). These guys just hire straight from Ivy League schools down the road (Stanford, Harvard, etc.). Salary comparison: Average Tech salary (outside of BayArea) range is 45-70K. The 100K+ salaries are exclusive to Bay Area…and in Bay Area a 232sqft apartment sells for $425,000. Therefore, even if you were the rockstar programmer a 100K salary in Bay Area wouldn’t buy you ****, unless you chose to live out of a van, which some actually have resorted to doing. Best career option, or bang for your buck I should say, right now in my opinion is either NP (with all the various career roles it allows) or PA, there is a healthcare provider shortage in this country and its bound to get worse, plus there’s talk that PAs will soon be able to work/prescribe independently (that is without the supervision of a medical doctor), which will be HUGE.

Your post sounds more like a rant to me~ I personally know people who barely had any prior programming background and went to a coding bootcamp, like Hack Reactor, etc for like 6 months, and got jobs at those companies you called "superstars", Microsoft, Uber, Airbnb, you name them. So why do you think there are so many coding bootcamps in those tech hubs, like nyc, sf, seattle, making employment guarantee that if their graduates can't get a job 6 months after, they refund their tuition or they will take a cut of their graduate's 1st year salary for tuition? And now they are making well above 6 figures and buying million dollar single houses, instead of what you say "live out of a van". Research the market and talk to real people before you make claims. You mentioned NP for bang for the buck? oh my goodness, look up how many nurses California graduate each year and how many jobs there are across the state. My friend's wife graduated from nursing several years ago, and she haven't yet found a full time job, still in the bay area. And if you are really curious, walk to any community college nearby to talk to administrator see how many people there are on the nursing track. Also, PA working/prescribing independently? They are only trained for 2-3 years and you think they would be allowed to prescribe? What a lunatic dream! They are called physician assistant and if they can work independently, what's the use of a physician they are supposed to assist? Please, have some common sense~ PA now have 218 accredited programs across US, and many more on the way. best bang for the buck? From what I see it, PA will fall much harder than pharmacy in just a few years. How many physicians are there across the country for those PA to assist any way?
 
You also need to compare how software engineers / computer programmers are treated. Programmers get lavish perks at tech companies, i.e. catered gourmet meals, on-site gym and laundry, on-site daycare (for children and/or pets), employee shuttles, etc. whereas pharmacists get to float 2 hours away and be on their feet for 14 hours with not even a bathroom break.

Tech companies provide these perks because they have to do so to keep workers in the office. On the other hand, at CVS if you do not agree to stay overtime with no pay then they will gladly replace you with a desperate new grad for less pay.
 
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You also need to compare how software engineers / computer programmers are treated. Programmers get lavish perks at tech companies, i.e. catered gourmet meals, on-site gym and laundry, on-site daycare (for children and/or pets), employee shuttles, etc. whereas pharmacists get to float 2 hours away and be on their feet for 14 hours with not even a bathroom break.

Tech companies provide these perks because they have to do so to keep workers in the office. On the other hand, at CVS if you do not agree to stay overtime with no pay then they will gladly replace you with a desperate new grad for less pay.

My boyfriend is a software engineer and I'm super jealous of all the perks he gets. He gets paid only 2k less than I do, however he works from home. He also gets reimbursement for trips to his job's US corporate office and UK corporate office. His flights, rental cars, hotel and food are all covered and he can go once a month to either spot but he chooses to go every quarter instead. He is so lucky and if I could restart I'd never even look towards pharmacy.
 
Your post sounds more like a rant to me~ I personally know people who barely had any prior programming background and went to a coding bootcamp, like Hack Reactor, etc for like 6 months, and got jobs at those companies you called "superstars", Microsoft, Uber, Airbnb, you name them. So why do you think there are so many coding bootcamps in those tech hubs, like nyc, sf, seattle, making employment guarantee that if their graduates can't get a job 6 months after, they refund their tuition or they will take a cut of their graduate's 1st year salary for tuition? And now they are making well above 6 figures and buying million dollar single houses, instead of what you say "live out of a van". Research the market and talk to real people before you make claims. You mentioned NP for bang for the buck? oh my goodness, look up how many nurses California graduate each year and how many jobs there are across the state. My friend's wife graduated from nursing several years ago, and she haven't yet found a full time job, still in the bay area. And if you are really curious, walk to any community college nearby to talk to administrator see how many people there are on the nursing track. Also, PA working/prescribing independently? They are only trained for 2-3 years and you think they would be allowed to prescribe? What a lunatic dream! They are called physician assistant and if they can work independently, what's the use of a physician they are supposed to assist? Please, have some common sense~ PA now have 218 accredited programs across US, and many more on the way. best bang for the buck? From what I see it, PA will fall much harder than pharmacy in just a few years. How many physicians are there across the country for those PA to assist any way?

“…why do you think there are so many coding bootcamps in those tech hubs, like nyc, sf, seattle, making employment guarantee that if their graduates can't get a job 6 months after, they refund their tuition or they will take a cut of their graduate's 1st year salary for tuition?
It’s a win-win for the Bootcamp. While the person is in the program they get paid MONEY. When and if person gets a job they get % of salary. Never said you CAN’T get a job, said that your salary won’t be 100K+ outside of Silicon Valley…said that the industry is riddled with H1-Bs, outsourcing, and the “consultant” temp hires. Also of note, while the bootcamp can cost thousands of dollars (20K+) financial aid 99% won’t cover bootcamp tuition…so that’s all cash upfront baby..for them!

“…And now they are making well above 6 figures and buying million dollar single houses,
instead of what you say "live out of a van”.
If you make 100K you won’t qualify for a million dollar house unless you come with a substantial down payment (buying a million-dollar property will require a 20% down payment). And single family homes in Silicon Valley are well above 1Million.

As for living out of a van:
1- Tables Turned: High-Paid Techies Priced Out of Silicon Valley
2- High rents force some in silicon valley to live in vehicles: https://youtu.be/KG0_KiM9Mv8

“My friend's wife graduated from nursing several years ago, and she haven't yet found a full time job
LPN, BSN, RN, NP are all referred to as “nurses.” There are different levels of nursing degrees and job postings require different requirements. I HIGHLY doubt your friends wife is a nurse practitioner, finding employment shouldn’t difficult and if worse comes to worse and you can’t find a job (again very unlikely) as an NP, you are free to open your own practice, so no problem there.

Also, PA working/prescribing independently? They are only trained for 2-3 years and you think they would be allowed to prescribe?
Yes, PAs do prescribe. PA Prescribing Authority By State


Research the market and talk to real people before you make claims.
I have… immediate family members are in tech. in various roles from IT manager to applications developer.


They are called physician assistant and if they can work independently, what's the use of a physician they are supposed to assist? Please, have some common sense.
The AAPA (American Academy of Physician Assistants) is very much moving forward to “eliminate the formal supervisory relationship between physicians and PAs.” You can read all about this on AAPA site.
 
“…why do you think there are so many coding bootcamps in those tech hubs, like nyc, sf, seattle, making employment guarantee that if their graduates can't get a job 6 months after, they refund their tuition or they will take a cut of their graduate's 1st year salary for tuition?
It’s a win-win for the Bootcamp. While the person is in the program they get paid MONEY. When and if person gets a job they get % of salary. Never said you CAN’T get a job, said that your salary won’t be 100K+ outside of Silicon Valley…said that the industry is riddled with H1-Bs, outsourcing, and the “consultant” temp hires. Also of note, while the bootcamp can cost thousands of dollars (20K+) financial aid 99% won’t cover bootcamp tuition…so that’s all cash upfront baby..for them!

“…And now they are making well above 6 figures and buying million dollar single houses,
instead of what you say "live out of a van”.

If you make 100K you won’t qualify for a million dollar house unless you come with a substantial down payment (buying a million-dollar property will require a 20% down payment). And single family homes in Silicon Valley are well above 1Million.

As for living out of a van:
1- Tables Turned: High-Paid Techies Priced Out of Silicon Valley
2- High rents force some in silicon valley to live in vehicles:
“My friend's wife graduated from nursing several years ago, and she haven't yet found a full time job
LPN, BSN, RN, NP are all referred to as “nurses.” There are different levels of nursing degrees and job postings require different requirements. I HIGHLY doubt your friends wife is a nurse practitioner, finding employment shouldn’t difficult and if worse comes to worse and you can’t find a job (again very unlikely) as an NP, you are free to open your own practice, so no problem there.

Also, PA working/prescribing independently? They are only trained for 2-3 years and you think they would be allowed to prescribe?
Yes, PAs do prescribe. PA Prescribing Authority By State


Research the market and talk to real people before you make claims.
I have… immediate family members are in tech. in various roles from IT manager to applications developer.


They are called physician assistant and if they can work independently, what's the use of a physician they are supposed to assist? Please, have some common sense.
The AAPA (American Academy of Physician Assistants) is very much moving forward to “eliminate the formal supervisory relationship between physicians and PAs.” You can read all about this on AAPA site.

What are you talking about some of my friends comp Sci major in SD and my neighbor making 150k+ lol.

If you are in silicon Valley, you start around 150k+stock and it goes to 500k+ after a couple promotions.
 
What are you talking about some of my friends comp Sci major in SD and my neighbor making 150k+ lol.

If you are in silicon Valley, you start around 150k+stock and it goes to 500k+ after a couple promotions.

Yes and there are pharmacists making well above 150K+...but I'm talking about the majority...the norm!
 
Yes and there are pharmacists making well above 150K+...but I'm talking about the majority...the norm!
I don't know anyone making less like you said lmao. You must have some crappy underachiever comp sci friends.
 
Yes and there are pharmacists making well above 150K+...but I'm talking about the majority...the norm!

The norm? My family is in the bay area, and I will return to bay area after I graduate, so to me, the "norm" is machine learning engineers got paid 150k per year starting with all sorts of packages for a regular 9-5 weekday job. You can say your "norm" is XXX money, whatever you like. I am not here to argue with you, nor i want to sway your opinion. I am just stating my opinions after my observations. Do whatever you like, if you want to pursue PA or NP or whatever, go ahead~

Oh, regarding your youtube video, it really sounds super funny to me. The dude is a google software engineer who wants to live 10 mins walking distance away from where he works! Most people in bay area commute 30 min to 1 hour to go to work, yet he CHOSE to live there. Of course, the rent is super expensive. Mountain View is the most pricey city in the bay area, and If he wants to buy a property elsewhere, he definitely can afford that, but obviously he doesn't want to commute. So that's his own choice, NOT A NORM!

Also for your PA prescription rights. This is so hilarious. If you click the link you provided, you will find that PA can only prescribe schedule II medications at best! Schedule 2 medications are behind the counter meds. EVERYONE can request it in a pharmacy and get them! Do you consider that as a prescription right? Why would ANYONE need a prescription from a PA to buy a schedule 2 meds? Some ******s maybe? And for whatever The AAPA said for PA, The pharmacy board have been advocating for decades! By the end of the day, these empty talks will always remain empty talks cuz neither PA nor pharmacists are trained to make a diagnosis, and that's what the MDs specialize.

And yes, my friend's wife is an NP. Of course she can open her practices, but your logic is fundamentally flawed. It's analogous to "All pharmacists can open their own independent pharmacies, so they shouldn't have much trouble finding a job" type of thought. So why so many pharmacists on this forum complaining about lack of full time jobs? You think they are all idiots cuz they can just simply open their pharmacies around the corner overnight and never having to worry about working for those evils like CVS and Walgreens?
 
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My boyfriend is a software engineer and I'm super jealous of all the perks he gets. He gets paid only 2k less than I do, however he works from home. He also gets reimbursement for trips to his job's US corporate office and UK corporate office. His flights, rental cars, hotel and food are all covered and he can go once a month to either spot but he chooses to go every quarter instead. He is so lucky and if I could restart I'd never even look towards pharmacy.

Better start now than regretting later for never trying. There are so many free and paid online resources nowdays to learn on your own if you want. Most IT jobs don't require cs degrees, and even those that do usually say they just want a 4 year degree in something and they don't care about the major. They care more about your programming skills and portfolio. You don't have to go back to school for that. You can just learn it yourself and build your portfolio, and that's the major selling point for a lot of coding bootcamps.
 
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Also for your PA prescription rights. This is so hilarious. If you click the link you provided, you will find that PA can only prescribe schedule II medications at best! Schedule 2 medications are behind the counter meds. EVERYONE can request it in a pharmacy and get them! Do you consider that as a prescription right? Why would ANYONE need a prescription from a PA to buy a schedule 2 meds? Some ******s maybe? And for whatever The AAPA said for PA, The pharmacy board have been advocating for decades! By the end of the day, these empty talks will always remain empty talks cuz neither PA nor pharmacists are trained to make a diagnosis, and that's what the MDs specialize.

You do realize that schedule II meds are drugs like norco, vicodin, adderall, etc... In other words, no, not everyone can get them. Please do your research next time.
 
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You do realize that schedule II meds are drugs like norco, vicodin, adderall, etc... In other words, no, not everyone can get them. Please do your research next time.

Oh yeah, you are absolutely right. But currently there is a special regulation for PA to prescribe any controlled substance. So, technically, PA can't yet independently prescribe schedule 2 drug order, at least in california. They can only do that if physicians delegates that authority to the PA, and The medical record of any patient for a Schedule II drug order must be reviewed, countersigned, and dated by the supervising physician within 7 days. And, PAs can't administer, provide or issue a drug order for Schedule II through V controlled substances, including refills, without advance approval by the supervising physicians, unless they go thru a training course and delegated by the supervising physician.
 
MD? With their sky high tuition and years of training post graduation, unless you specialize in ROAD, there is really not that much money there. Also, they aren't immune to saturation either. Well-trained medical fellows also face the reality most pharmacists have to face today: relocate to where the job/demand are vs. take a pay cut and stay where is desirable to live. Also their horrible life-work balance, and don't forget their liability insurance~ some are well above 6 figures per year for certain specialties.

PA? Lower entry barrier will eventually flood the market. Their rosy days are numbered. I personally know several high school/college-bound kids who said they wanted to do PA. If you think pharmacy is bad enough, PA will end up a lot worse than pharmacy.

Sidenote: I worked 1.5 year in a well-known biotech/pharma company before heading back for pharmacy, so I witnessed their big push towards big data analytics and machine learning/deep learning to help make various tough scientific/business decisions. I didn't have much prior programming background, but in the past 1-2 years of pharmacy school, I spent ~75% my time doing programming exercises, and I started with learning basic basic syntax, and now I am working on projects implementing various complex algorithms. My pharmacy school courseload is quite stressful, but I did enough to pass all of them with ease. TBH, I found CS to be a lot more enjoyable than various therapeutics modules. I never liked the curriculum, but since I am already here, why not making a good use of the time to learn in-demand skills? I decided to do pharmacy cuz I calculated the PharmD degree, that piece of diploma paper, brings the best value of buck to advance my career than any other options, including MD/PA/PhD/MBA, given my school's tuition, and I never planned to work full-time as a pharmacist in future, probably just part-time during weekends and holidays to cover my living expenses so that I can invest all of my earning from my regular 9-5 weekday job.

Interesting. Can you elaborate on the role of machine learning within a pharma company? And if or how a pharmacist's knowledge can add to that?
 
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