Pharmacy to become a Master's degree?

Started by lcow2004
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lcow2004

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I was chatting with some of my colleagues today and one of them mentioned that there is increasing support in making pharmacy from a PharmD to a Master's degree. This will probably make the program shorter so graduates would finish their degree faster and not be in as much debt (which actually makes sense to me) but I was suprised by this as this was the first time I've heard of it. Anybody else hear something similar??
 
I've seen the opposite, extending by one year.
 
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Most likely: 4 year program will become 3 years. Squeeze the pre-reqs to 2 years or get rid of some required pre reqs. Advertise $100 k+ salary just after 5 years of school.

You are already have a lot of the new grads coming out with little or no work experience. They don't know what is important or what is not important. This new model will just make the situation worse.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
I'm going to assume you think rotations will be shortened to just half a year. There's no way they can fit that much info into 2 years. They would have to do 5 hours of therapeutic classes three times a day or which would be more possible, 3 hours every day with Monday's being exam day which would screw weekends up. This assumes rotations stayed the same.

So I'm looking at my schools curriculum, first wow it's changed. They've already moved things that were in my first year. I don't see any room for putting more classes into prepharm years. They already have calculus, anatomy, chemistry, organic chem, physics, microbiology, etc. You can't add classes until all this is learned.

I think five years ago I was told a transformation was going to happen which by the looks of things has occurred. At this point I was told they were looking into adding a year, def not dropping. I went to a top school though so I doubt they lower it.
 
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never going to decrease it a year - now one could argue that the current PharmD is more along the lines of a master level degree (you can do it in 6 years post high school - depending on your school). I mean really, it went from a 5 year to a 6 year program and magically went from a BS to a PharmD? But yay, with residencies, etc - I never see a decrease - more likely techs will get expanded responsibilities after a bachelors.
 
wagrxm2000 said:
I've heard the opposite, extending one year. There's too much info/classes to decrease by a year.
Click to expand...

Pharmacy school to become longer than medical school? Hilarious.

MindGeek said:
Shorter? There's sentiment that residents should pay tuition to the hospitals they complete PGY-1's at, followed by hospital salary paid PGY-2 & 3.
This could increase the number of PGY-1 sites enough to eventually support mandatory PGY-1, or PGY-1 for privileging.
http://www.ajhp.org/content/71/14/1199.extract
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/it-has-started-pgy3s-in-newest-ajhp.1086680/
Click to expand...

Talk about a nightmare. Weak willed people would probably eat this up too.
 
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MindGeek said:
Shorter? There's sentiment that residents should pay tuition to the hospitals they complete PGY-1's at, followed by hospital salary paid PGY-2 & 3.
This could increase the number of PGY-1 sites enough to eventually support mandatory PGY-1, or PGY-1 for privileging.
http://www.ajhp.org/content/71/14/1199.extract
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/it-has-started-pgy3s-in-newest-ajhp.1086680/
Click to expand...

This would mean the death of the profession. Can you imagine telling M4 students that they have to pay the hospital for the privilege of doing their first year of residency? They would riot but not pharmacy. We'll bend over and take it hard because this profession has no leaders. What we need is someone like me who has the balls to admit that residencies are scams but I don't have the power that NCPA or the AMA has. Pharmacy residencies, especially community pharmacy residencies, are so damn evil and immoral.
 
zelman said:
They should lose the P4 year and mandate PGY1s. Then it's the same length, but costs less and we can control the number of graduates outside of academia.
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This would actually be a decent proposal for mandating residency within pharmacy. As it stands, the P4 year can be kind of a waste and very inconsistent from person to person. I had preceptors send me home after an hour, others that kept me late doing nothing but tech work. There were honestly only a few rotations that I felt taught me anything and were worth it. It was mostly waiting out the clock until I could graduate and take the Naplex.

BenJammin said:
This would mean the death of the profession. Can you imagine telling M4 students that they have to pay the hospital for the privilege of doing their first year of residency? They would riot but not pharmacy. We'll bend over and take it hard because this profession has no leaders. What we need is someone like me who has the balls to admit that residencies are scams but I don't have the power that NCPA or the AMA has. Pharmacy residencies, especially community pharmacy residencies, are so damn evil and immoral.
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Pharmacy students and pharmacists are the exact type of sycophants who would gladly accept these terms. They'll do anything to differentiate themselves to take on these new and emerging jobs the academy keeps saying are right around the corner.

It seems I can't make a single post lately without ranting about the naive optimism of pre-pharm and pharmacy students.
 
zelman said:
They should lose the P4 year and mandate PGY1s. Then it's the same length, but costs less and we can control the number of graduates outside of academia.
Click to expand...

I'd support this. Pharmacy needs something of a "step 2" or a filter process. Not everyone should become a pharmacist regardless of completion of P3 year.
 
confettiflyer said:
This is the most random thing I've read all day.

Hey guys, I heard pharmacists are going to do MTM soon and get paid a lot for it.


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Click to expand...

We've all been hearing this for a long time now but it hasn't really happened yet...
 
confettiflyer said:
This is the most random thing I've read all day.

Hey guys, I heard pharmacists are going to do MTM soon and get paid a lot for it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Click to expand...

Hey guys, my completely out of touch professor said X and I believed them because I haven't figured out how clueless they are yet!

What's another old line.. Oh yeah. The PharmD requirement will usher in a new era of clinical pharmacy to offset the primary care shortage. Technicians should be dispensing medications without pharmacist supervision to free us up for these important clinical roles.
 
lol wut? I looked at my school's curriculum and it looks like they have to complete one class over the summer now too. I'm all for pharmacy year round "schooling" when there is a summer internship so students can learn some work skills.
 
Most academics believe that the future of pharmacy is to fill the gap created by a shortage of primary physicians, and they believe that residency is the key to pushing the profession into this gap. I personally believe that other midlevel practitioners are already filling this gap while we are sitting around fighting for stupid crap like MTM reimbursement. To make it even worse pharmacy schools are advertising this projected need for pharmacists as if it already exists, which it doesn't.

Don't get me wrong, residency isn't bad in terms of advancing the profession but I'm afraid it will accomplish very little in terms of advancing pharmacists into a new role and will rather become a requirement to get jobs that already exist but are considered more desirable (which is what it pretty much is now). Do we want residency to open up new doors for pharmacists or do we want a residency requirement to get already existing yet desirable jobs? Is residency currently advancing pharmacists into new roles? Before we talk about making residency standard we better be sure that these residency trained pharmacists are getting hired into jobs that didn't previously exist, otherwise we are just exploiting student for lower pay in order to get a job that was waiting for them regardless.
 
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ldiot said:
Most academics believe that the future of pharmacy is to fill the gap created by a shortage of primary physicians, and they believe that residency is the key to pushing the profession into this gap. I personally believe that other midlevel practitioners are already filling this gap while we are sitting around fighting for stupid crap like MTM reimbursement. To make it even worse pharmacy schools are advertising this projected need for pharmacists as if it already exists, which it doesn't.
Click to expand...

There actually are many very slow advances in the profession of pharmacy. You have to start with the payers. Why aren't clinical pharmacy services booming like they were advertised by school professors to for decades? The obvious answer is because no one wants to pay for them. Unless they wrap them up in another incentivized package. Pharmacists are slowly getting provider status, which means Medicare actually recognizes our existence to even maybe cut a check out to our services. Some people will tell you the clinical push was since the 90's. Well, provider status wasn't. Then joint commission is requiring things like antimicrobial stewardship programs as a measure of do it or don't get paid, and quality is now the outcome instead of quantity.

Besides residency being training that new grads need (I think many new grads could kill someone in a pure decentralized clinical setting), it also filters the billion new grads from the million new schools competing for the hundred thousand good jobs. What's wrong with that + CAN WE CLOSE A FEW SCHOOLS?

Is the profession of pharmacy advancing? Yes.

Will the average pharmacist be required to do more things? Yes. (look at immunizations, then MTM being a thing, then centralized --> decentralized at places with enough money, and now birth control)

Will this open more positions for pharmacists in the field? Theoretically, yes but I don't know.

I know that pharmacists are trying to keep themselves relevant and I don't fault that at all.
 
What a coincidence, I received an email from UF today advertising their MS in Pharmacy. For the low, low cost of $22,500 (plus fees) you can earn this odd degree that serves... I'm sorry, what purpose is this supposed to serve again?

They proudly state that being a pharmacist is not required. Is this just a ploy to get money from techs looking to move into more administrative roles?

http://onlinepop.pharmacy.ufl.edu/?...UF+POP+Summer+2016+MS+Pharmacy+vs+MHA+Email+2
 
EyeTeeFarmer said:
There actually are many very slow advances in the profession of pharmacy. You have to start with the payers. Why aren't clinical pharmacy services booming like they were advertised by school professors to for decades? The obvious answer is because no one wants to pay for them. Unless they wrap them up in another incentivized package. Pharmacists are slowly getting provider status, which means Medicare actually recognizes our existence to even maybe cut a check out to our services. Some people will tell you the clinical push was since the 90's. Well, provider status wasn't. Then joint commission is requiring things like antimicrobial stewardship programs as a measure of do it or don't get paid, and quality is now the outcome instead of quantity.

Besides residency being training that new grads need (I think many new grads could kill someone in a pure decentralized clinical setting), it also filters the billion new grads from the million new schools competing for the hundred thousand good jobs. What's wrong with that + CAN WE CLOSE A FEW SCHOOLS?

Is the profession of pharmacy advancing? Yes.

Will the average pharmacist be required to do more things? Yes. (look at immunizations, then MTM being a thing, then centralized --> decentralized at places with enough money, and now birth control)

Will this open more positions for pharmacists in the field? Theoretically, yes but I don't know.

I know that pharmacists are trying to keep themselves relevant and I don't fault that at all.
Click to expand...

These are good points. I remember awhile back when pharmacy got provider status and there was seemingly lots of celebration as this was surely going to change the profession of pharmacy. I'm curious is this actually being pulled through? What has provider status done for pharmacy? Has there been a broadening of the pharmacy field?
 
ldiot said:
Most academics believe that the future of pharmacy is to fill the gap created by a shortage of primary physicians, and they believe that residency is the key to pushing the profession into this gap. I personally believe that other midlevel practitioners are already filling this gap while we are sitting around fighting for stupid crap like MTM reimbursement. To make it even worse pharmacy schools are advertising this projected need for pharmacists as if it already exists, which it doesn't.

Don't get me wrong, residency isn't bad in terms of advancing the profession but I'm afraid it will accomplish very little in terms of advancing pharmacists into a new role and will rather become a requirement to get jobs that already exist but are considered more desirable (which is what it pretty much is now). Do we want residency to open up new doors for pharmacists or do we want a residency requirement to get already existing yet desirable jobs? Is residency currently advancing pharmacists into new roles? Before we talk about making residency standard we better be sure that these residency trained pharmacists are getting hired into jobs that didn't previously exist, otherwise we are just exploiting student for lower pay in order to get a job that was waiting for them regardless.
Click to expand...
this might be one of the best posts I have seen in a long time and explains residency better than anyone else. The original goal of a residency was to open new doors, but it has turned into a way to open doors that used to already be open, but have been shut do to the oversupply of rphs
 
Dred Pirate said:
this might be one of the best posts I have seen in a long time and explains residency better than anyone else. The original goal of a residency was to open new doors, but it has turned into a way to open doors that used to already be open, but have been shut do to the oversupply of rphs
Click to expand...

The current system reeks of exploitation. Why are pharmacists so eager to be overworked and underpaid to get that "specialty training" just to get the same job they would have gotten without it? Funny thing is we spend just as much time training new PGY1 pharmacists as we do new grads. The level of competency between the two really isn't that striking, certainly not what you'd expect from someone with "3-5 years of experience."
 
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gwarm01 said:
The current system reeks of exploitation. Why are pharmacists so eager to be overworked and underpaid to get that "specialty training" just to get the same job they would have gotten without it? Funny thing is we spend just as much time training new PGY1 pharmacists as we do new grads. The level of competency between the two really isn't that striking, certainly not what you'd expect from someone with "3-5 years of experience."
Click to expand...
it is because exactly what was said - a job you used to be able to get, you can't get (or is much more difficult to get) without one - I am not saying I agree, but that is the facts jack
 
Dred Pirate said:
it is because exactly what was said - a job you used to be able to get, you can't get (or is much more difficult to get) without one - I am not saying I agree, but that is the facts jack
Click to expand...
Oh no, I completely agree. PGY1 is becoming almost mandatory for hospital staff positions. I have worked with a PGY2 pharmacist doing staffing and central fill before. The funny thing is they never feel cheated or lied too, but rather talked down to pharmacists without residency. We're a cannibalistic bunch.
 
The biggest thing keeping pharmacists out of clinical positions isn't a lack of training or need for residency. It's reimbursement for clinical services. In nearly all states a licensed pharmacist can enter into a collaborate practice agreement like PA's/NP's do with a physician to see patients and prescribe drugs. It's just not common because insurance won't pay you to do that. Reimbursement for clinical services needs to be one of the top issues being addressed, not lengthening or shortening pharmacist education. What's the point in having a 4 year doctorate and more residencies/years in residency when the job opportunities and payment don't exist? In most other fields increased education, credentialing, and training mean increased wages. Clinical pharmacists usually make less than retail counterparts.

I think it's a shame to get all this education and add the alphabet soup of a PGY1/2, BCPS, certifications, etc. and have nothing to really show for it apart from a few jobs that might use that level of education (VA, IHS, academia, etc). I've heard rumors of PGY3s.... If someone is going to get a 4 year doctorate and do a 3 year residency like a physician they better demand to be paid like one. Pharmacy should be addressing real financial issues right now for payment in both the clinical and retail settings.
 
Digsbe said:
The biggest thing keeping pharmacists out of clinical positions isn't a lack of training or need for residency. It's reimbursement for clinical services. In nearly all states a licensed pharmacist can enter into a collaborate practice agreement like PA's/NP's do with a physician to see patients and prescribe drugs. It's just not common because insurance won't pay you to do that. Reimbursement for clinical services needs to be one of the top issues being addressed, not lengthening or shortening pharmacist education. What's the point in having a 4 year doctorate and more residencies/years in residency when the job opportunities and payment don't exist? In most other fields increased education, credentialing, and training mean increased wages. Clinical pharmacists usually make less than retail counterparts.

I think it's a shame to get all this education and add the alphabet soup of a PGY1/2, BCPS, certifications, etc. and have nothing to really show for it apart from a few jobs that might use that level of education (VA, IHS, academia, etc). I've heard rumors of PGY3s.... If someone is going to get a 4 year doctorate and do a 3 year residency like a physician they better demand to be paid like one. Pharmacy should be addressing real financial issues right now for payment in both the clinical and retail settings.
Click to expand...

lol pharmacy is hilarious to me at times

Retail conditions continue to deteriorate

Clinical still can't directly bill insurance

Just open more schools and pump out more graduates increase saturation and never make any progress in solving the issues
 
ldiot said:
The worst part about all of this is that the jobs that require residency don't even pay better.
Click to expand...

lol residency is often done just to avoid retail

Clinical pharmacist yet you cannot even bill insurance directly? Residency to end up working for lower than what you would making in retail?

And how has pharmacy progressed over the years?
 
Why would anyone want a job with less pay and a residency requirement? Not to mention the endless busywork and presentations? I honestly don't understand it at all. Most of my class wants to go residency. Maybe it's the perceived prestige. Despite retail being 70% of the job market we talk about clinical jobs 90% of the time and indirectly paint retail pharmacists to be useless garbage. Even some of the current residents that come in to speak talk about retail pharmacists very poorly and use them in examples of what not to do... then proceed to tell us how they saved the day with their "clinical" skills.

I just don't see the appeal in fighting for a competitive residency with tons of work and horrible pay with an endpoint being a job that still doesn't pay as good as retail so I can pretend I'm a doctor
 
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ldiot said:
Why would anyone want a job with less pay and a residency requirement? Not to mention the endless busywork and presentations? I honestly don't understand it at all. Most of my class wants to go residency. Maybe it's the perceived prestige. Despite retail being 70% of the job market we talk about clinical jobs 90% of the time and indirectly paint retail pharmacists to be useless garbage. Even some of the current residents that come in to speak talk about retail pharmacists very poorly and use them in examples of what not to do... then proceed to tell us how they saved the day with their "clinical" skills.

I just don't see the appeal in fighting for a competitive residency with tons of work and horrible pay with an endpoint being a job that still doesn't pay as good as retail so I can pretend I'm a doctor
Click to expand...

Have you seen what a CVS "retail" job is like? Do you really need to ask why someone doesn't want to work in retail? Anything is better than that. My apologies to those who work at CVS. These big box retails slave pharmacists to death, make them adhere to metrics, and it all takes a toll on their bodies. Have you not heard about the consolidation lay offs and cuts in hours?
 
steveysmith54 said:
Have you seen what a CVS "retail" job is like? Do you really need to ask why someone doesn't want to work in retail? Anything is better than that. My apologies to those who work at CVS. These big box retails slave pharmacists to death, make them adhere to metrics, and it all takes a toll on their bodies. Have you not heard about the consolidation lay offs and cuts in hours?
Click to expand...

To start saying the working retail pharmacy takes a toll on the body as if you are slaving away in a coal mine or something just makes you look like a complete joke. Heaven forbid you have to stand up while at work or answer a phone. Don't get me wrong CVS isn't exactly company of the year but after 3 years there it really isn't that bad. And I've worked out of a queue with 26 pages so trust me I know what a shtshow it can be when you have an incompetent staff.

Don't blame the chains for consolidation and hour cuts. They are being squeezed out with falling reimbursements and it's not a big mystery that the goal of a business is to make money.
 
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gwarm01 said:
The current system reeks of exploitation. Why are pharmacists so eager to be overworked and underpaid to get that "specialty training" just to get the same job they would have gotten without it? Funny thing is we spend just as much time training new PGY1 pharmacists as we do new grads. The level of competency between the two really isn't that striking, certainly not what you'd expect from someone with "3-5 years of experience."
Click to expand...

I doubt I'm going to do a residency, mind interviewing me for a hospital position when I graduate?
 
ldiot said:
To start saying the working retail pharmacy takes a toll on the body as if you are slaving away in a coal mine or something just makes you look like a complete joke. Heaven forbid you have to stand up while at work or answer a phone. Don't get me wrong CVS isn't exactly company of the year but after 3 years there it really isn't that bad. And I've worked out of a queue with 26 pages so trust me I know what a shtshow it can be when you have an incompetent staff.

Don't blame the chains for consolidation and hour cuts. They are being squeezed out with falling reimbursements and it's not a big mystery that the goal of a business is to make money.
Click to expand...

Chains pay you more because honestly, you'll live shorter, less fulfilled, more stressful lives. Your anecdotal store experience somehow paints the CVS environment as bearable? Cool story and highly delusional.


ldiot said:
Why would anyone want a job with less pay and a residency requirement? Not to mention the endless busywork and presentations? I honestly don't understand it at all.
Click to expand...


At the end of the day, it's a choice. Some people choose the paycut to get a less stressful job and have more hours with their families. Some people take the higher pay/harder working environment to start doubling down on student debt/mortgage/kids. It's understandable you dont "get" residency. But maybe you'll get this.
 
EyeTeeFarmer said:
Chains pay you more because honestly, you'll live shorter, less fulfilled, more stressful lives. Your anecdotal store experience somehow paints the CVS environment as bearable? Cool story and highly delusional.





At the end of the day, it's a choice. Some people choose the paycut to get a less stressful job and have more hours with their families. Some people take the higher pay/harder working environment to start doubling down on student debt/mortgage/kids. It's understandable you dont "get" residency. But maybe you'll get this.
Click to expand...

I'll take my higher paying lower stress job in retail.
 
steveysmith54 said:
Have you seen what a CVS "retail" job is like? Do you really need to ask why someone doesn't want to work in retail? Anything is better than that. My apologies to those who work at CVS. These big box retails slave pharmacists to death, make them adhere to metrics, and it all takes a toll on their bodies. Have you not heard about the consolidation lay offs and cuts in hours?
Click to expand...

This. The whole point of residency is to escape the hellish rat race of retail. Even at significantly lower pay and more school and lost wages it's still worth it because most pharmacists in retail think about their life with their face down.
 
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ldiot said:
To start saying the working retail pharmacy takes a toll on the body as if you are slaving away in a coal mine or something just makes you look like a complete joke. Heaven forbid you have to stand up while at work or answer a phone. Don't get me wrong CVS isn't exactly company of the year but after 3 years there it really isn't that bad. And I've worked out of a queue with 26 pages so trust me I know what a shtshow it can be when you have an incompetent staff.

Don't blame the chains for consolidation and hour cuts. They are being squeezed out with falling reimbursements and it's not a big mystery that the goal of a business is to make money.
Click to expand...

Dear "idiot",
If you want to compare yourself to a "coal" worker, go head. sad that you don't think that you deserve better. How many pharmacists older than 40 have you seen in a retail chain? Congrats on your three long year at cvs, come back and read your own words in 13.

Then if you want to defend corporate for cutting staff and creating working conditions that are clearly not safe and have leads to an increase in Rx misfills, than you might truly be what your SN is.

Good day.
 
EyeTeeFarmer said:
Chains pay you more because honestly, you'll live shorter, less fulfilled, more stressful lives. Your anecdotal store experience somehow paints the CVS environment as bearable? Cool story and highly delusional.





At the end of the day, it's a choice. Some people choose the paycut to get a less stressful job and have more hours with their families. Some people take the higher pay/harder working environment to start doubling down on student debt/mortgage/kids. It's understandable you dont "get" residency. But maybe you'll get this.
Click to expand...

Your inability to handle retail doesn't mean I'm delusional
 
steveysmith54 said:
Dear "idiot",
If you want to compare yourself to a "coal" worker, go head. sad that you don't think that you deserve better. How many pharmacists older than 40 have you seen in a retail chain? Congrats on your three long year at cvs, come back and read your own words in 13.

Then if you want to defend corporate for cutting staff and creating working conditions that are clearly not safe and have leads to an increase in Rx misfills, than you might truly be what your SN is.

Good day.
Click to expand...

I think you missed my point. That being said, I've actually worked for pharmacists in their 70's lol
 
ldiot said:
Your inability to handle retail doesn't mean I'm delusional
Click to expand...

Change inability to just choosing not to. I've worked retail for couple of years. I still do once in a while to make an extra buck or two. I converted to being a hospital rph bc I've seen majority of retail rph are unhappy and bitter bc they are being treated like crap by customers and their employers. I've seen friends who staff being told to do 5 hours shifts and cut their hours to 35 by your cvs. I prefer the easy life.ive studied for 8 years and that I deserve more
 
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