PharmD - now and then

[group_theory]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Back in the days when obtaining a BSPharm was the norm, what were the reasons why people pursue PharmDs?

Also, related to the first question - are school curriculums for PharmDs today similar to those back in the days when PharmDs were optional?

Why am I asking? I met a nice man (mid 50ish I would say) the other day and we started talking. He mentioned that he has a "real" PharmD - "back in the days when they didn't hand the darn thing out to every young buck who wanted to be a druggist". He said that back then, people only get PharmDs if they want to get involved in research.

Basically I know nothing about pharmacy so I don't know if his statement/attitude is right or wrong. Hence i'm posting here to get your point of view. I'm also curious if there is any generational gap here also.

GT

 

[baggywrinkle]

Back in the days when obtaining a BSPharm was the norm, what were the reasons why people pursue PharmDs?

Also, related to the first question - are school curriculums for PharmDs today similar to those back in the days when PharmDs were optional?

Why am I asking? I met a nice man (mid 50ish I would say) the other day and we started talking. He mentioned that he has a "real" PharmD - "back in the days when they didn't hand the darn thing out to every young buck who wanted to be a druggist". He said that back then, people only get PharmDs if they want to get involved in research.

Basically I know nothing about pharmacy so I don't know if his statement/attitude is right or wrong. Hence i'm posting here to get your point of view. I'm also curious if there is any generational gap here also.

GT

When I graduated in 1983 the fledgling PharmD program at the University of
Iowa was two years post graduate work on top of the five year B.S. Pharmacy program. At that time the primary reason to go into the program was to teach. Some of the students in that first class spoke in hushed tones
about oral exams. If that doesn't turn your hair gray nothing will.

Keep in mind that the B.S. Pharmacy already involved two years of therapeutics and the normal host of clerkship rotations.

U of I was a late bloomer in the PharmD scene. Most of the therapeutic
profs at that time were from schools back east like Virginia which I have heard had an awesome program

 

[bananaface]

We do have some practicing pharmacists on this forum. But, I don't know that any of them have both their bachelor's in pharmacy and their PharmD.

I worked with a gentleman who finished his PharmD in 1973. His individual motivation for pursuing the degree was to avoid military service.

 

[baggywrinkle]

We do have some practicing pharmacists on this forum. But, I don't know that any of them have both their bachelor's in pharmacy and their PharmD.

I worked with a gentleman who finished his PharmD in 1973. His individual motivation for pursuing the degree was to avoid military service.

Both the PharmD and the post graduate residency failed the cost benefit analysis and still does. Two years lost wages plus the cost of tuition to get
out on the open market and make the same money? 😱 buzzzzz, wrong
answer, thank you for playing 👎

However, to AUDIT classes while I force my wife at gunpoint to go to pharmacy school so we can double our income? I think I'm in love.. 😍

 

[jdpharmd?]

We do have some practicing pharmacists on this forum. But, I don't know that any of them have both their bachelor's in pharmacy and their PharmD.

I worked with a gentleman who finished his PharmD in 1973. His individual motivation for pursuing the degree was to avoid military service.

After 1971, wans't there some news about only being able to defer for one semester, or to finish the senior year (if you were a senior at the time)? My father was a 1-A (pack your bags), only a few days before the draft ended.

 

[bananaface]

After 1971, wans't there some news about only being able to defer for one semester, or to finish the senior year (if you were a senior at the time)? My father was a 1-A (pack your bags), only a few days before the draft ended.

I don't claim to know anything about the draft policies at the time, just that avoiding military service was the reason he cited. At that point in time even a temporary deferment may have been motivation enough to continue schooling.

 

[Science_Guy]

For those PharmD guys out there....I work with a PharmD who has had his degree for over 17 years, and worked with another who has had her degree for over 9 years. They both complain about the more modern "correspondence" programs, as they called them, and the apparent ease with which BPharms are converting to PharmD. What is the view of the community out there about the long-distance learning programs vs. actual time in residence at a College of Pharmacy? Just curious.......

 

[OSURxgirl]

Pharmacy is changing and some of the elders have trouble accepting it. Although he may claim our degree isn't a "real" PharmD, I'm not sure what he means. At my school, 70%+ of our incoming class has a bachelor's degree. It is a 4 year post-graduate professional program.Our school offers mini-rotations throughout the first and third years, and the entire 4th year is spent in clinical rotations. We take two solid years of Pharmacology and Pathophysiology & Therapeutics. We take a year long practice lab, where we learn to dispense and compound. We learn to perform basic physical examinations. We become certified immunization providers. We gain certification to perform diabetes screenings. We become certified in CPR and AED. Our curriculum is challenging, diverse, and demanding, and it certainly is "real" work and a "real" education. I think today's PharmD is a good thing. I got my BS degree in Psychology and I think that this exposure to a different field is only going to make me a better pharmacist. There are chemistry, communications, and english majors in my class. This wouldn't have been possible with the old regime.

 

[baggywrinkle]

Pharmacy is changing and some of the elders have trouble accepting it. Although he may claim our degree isn't a "real" PharmD, have been possible with the old regime.

You have the tools to do the job and that is all that matters.

 

[kwakster928]

Pharmacy is changing and some of the elders have trouble accepting it. Although he may claim our degree isn't a "real" PharmD, I'm not sure what he means. At my school, 70%+ of our incoming class has a bachelor's degree. It is a 4 year post-graduate professional program.Our school offers mini-rotations throughout the first and third years, and the entire 4th year is spent in clinical rotations. We take two solid years of Pharmacology and Pathophysiology & Therapeutics. We take a year long practice lab, where we learn to dispense and compound. We learn to perform basic physical examinations. We become certified immunization providers. We gain certification to perform diabetes screenings. We become certified in CPR and AED. Our curriculum is challenging, diverse, and demanding, and it certainly is "real" work and a "real" education. I think today's PharmD is a good thing. I got my BS degree in Psychology and I think that this exposure to a different field is only going to make me a better pharmacist. There are chemistry, communications, and english majors in my class. This wouldn't have been possible with the old regime.

my school is pretty much same case. i think about same number of my classmates have BS or BA or somekind. i think it is very good thing that compeition is at arise. this could make things only better not for the worse.

 

[lord999]

Correct, though sadly the Pharm. D. was NEVER intended to be the entry level degree for what we do.

The Pharm. D. degree originated with the Pharmaceutical Survey, which though that pharmacists as the dispensing (count, pour, lick, and stick) role would be completely eliminated by 1962 due to pharmacist extenders (technicians) and automation. The intention for the entry-level Pharm. D. degree was to train someone who did "pharmacetical service," a progenitor to today's clinical pharmacy.

We know that technicians and technology have not been implemented to that extent yet. Considering the progress, it will probably take another 20 years to execute this (and this generation be retired by that time).

BaggyWrinkle is correct about the CBA if we are talking about dispensing pharmacy. If he is talking about clinical pharmacy, the bigger question is whether clinical pharmacy can meet its CBA standing...

If you want to be a clinical pharmacist, show me that you can make money doing it, and we'll let you do it. Otherwise, dispensing at the market rate pays better, period.

"Real" vs. "Fake" Pharm.D.: The "real" Pharm. D. that some older practioners are talking about was basically an MS in Pharmacokinetics without a thesis. The "fake" Pharm.D. is the BS Pharm. with just a class in kinetics and more rotations tacked on. Anyway, I don't use "Dr." as part of my title because my first name works even better with my patients.

Both the PharmD and the post graduate residency failed the cost benefit analysis and still does. Two years lost wages plus the cost of tuition to get
out on the open market and make the same money? 😱 buzzzzz, wrong
answer, thank you for playing 👎

However, to AUDIT classes while I force my wife at gunpoint to go to pharmacy school so we can double our income? I think I'm in love.. 😍

 

[Science_Guy]

Correct, though sadly the Pharm. D. was NEVER intended to be the entry level degree for what we do.

The Pharm. D. degree originated with the Pharmaceutical Survey, which though that pharmacists as the dispensing (count, pour, lick, and stick) role would be completely eliminated by 1962 due to pharmacist extenders (technicians) and automation. The intention for the entry-level Pharm. D. degree was to train someone who did "pharmacetical service," a progenitor to today's clinical pharmacy.

We know that technicians and technology have not been implemented to that extent yet. Considering the progress, it will probably take another 20 years to execute this (and this generation be retired by that time).

BaggyWrinkle is correct about the CBA if we are talking about dispensing pharmacy. If he is talking about clinical pharmacy, the bigger question is whether clinical pharmacy can meet its CBA standing...

If you want to be a clinical pharmacist, show me that you can make money doing it, and we'll let you do it. Otherwise, dispensing at the market rate pays better, period.

"Real" vs. "Fake" Pharm.D.: The "real" Pharm. D. that some older practioners are talking about was basically an MS in Pharmacokinetics without a thesis. The "fake" Pharm.D. is the BS Pharm. with just a class in kinetics and more rotations tacked on. Anyway, I don't use "Dr." as part of my title because my first name works even better with my patients.

Lord999...I think you are right about the "real" vs "fake" PharmD perception of the older generation (if you can call 10-15 years in practice old). I know that my colleagues who are older practitioners feel that the "pain" level of new PharmDs is WAY lower than what they experienced, such as the "ease" (their words) with which PharmDs are earned in "correspondence" programs. They also complain about the types of students who come to internships (unprepared in their view), with stories such as not knowing how to properly prepare light sensitive meds for IV piggyback, etc. Much of it is likely perception, as students today would have access to the latest science, but in many ways, Pharmacy has changed since the early-mid '80s, and they likely are commenting on those changes in the profession.

 

[baggywrinkle]

" If he is talking about clinical pharmacy, the bigger question is whether clinical pharmacy can meet its CBA standing...

If you want to be a clinical pharmacist, show me that you can make money doing it, and we'll let you do it. Otherwise, dispensing at the market rate pays better, period. "


Nothing here is new stuff. It has always been possible to carve yourself a
clinical position if you desire it. Nursing home consultants have been doing it
for years. What is new is the legislation coming in 2006 that will allow pharmacists to bill directly for cognitive services at the retail level. This is
an opportunity to make the Australian forward dispensing model work state side. However, speaking as a retail pharmacist who is faced with trying to counsel people who don't want to hear it - this will IMHO remain a niche market. I have come to love the little piece of paper that Rite Aid has folks sign acknowledging the opportunity to counsel or decline counsel. When they come back in two years with a dead fetus growing on their head (school nurse at South Park) they can't say we didn't try to tell them.

I really am intrigued by the idea of pharmacist prescribing. Here in Washington
state it is a real possibility and an area where a retail pharmacist can have a
direct and immediate impact on patient outcomes. Emergency contraception
is the most pressing need. Here in tiny Yelm I have had around a dozen young
women come in looking for Plan B in the short time I have been here. In fact, I just had one yesterday. The most likely pharmacy in town to do it will only give a long lecture on the evils of abortion, so that makes me the only pharmacist on a Sunday morning within an hours drive that can help these ladies out. Thank you PACtoDOC, I owe it all to you.

There is no tangible difference between the PharmD's of old and those of today except gray hair. We are all on the same team - yes?

 

[bananaface]

that makes me the only pharmacist on a Sunday morning within an hours drive that can help these ladies out.

You apparently need me to fax you a copy of the local provider's list. 😛

 

[baggywrinkle]

You apparently need me to fax you a copy of the local provider's list. 😛

That's my story & I'm sticking to it. At the moment we send everyone to
Shopko - a good fifty minute drive

 

[TotalKayOs]

one of my prof at school also thinks that pharmd's now are a lot easier than when she went through it 15-20 yrs ago. she says that she first got her BA in pharmacy then had to go on for 2 years to get her pharmd. in course of her pharm d work she had to write a thesis and defend it against a panel. her pharm d class consisted of about 6 people an they had to take turns working 12 hour shifts at the hosppital where during their shifts they were responsible for the meds of every incoming an out going patient. i really think we do have it much easier than they did.

 

[baggywrinkle]

one of my prof at school also thinks that pharmd's now are a lot easier than when she went through it 15-20 yrs ago. she says that she first got her BA in pharmacy then had to go on for 2 years to get her pharmd. in course of her pharm d work she had to write a thesis and defend it against a panel. her pharm d class consisted of about 6 people an they had to take turns working 12 hour shifts at the hosppital where during their shifts they were responsible for the meds of every incoming an out going patient. i really think we do have it much easier than they did.

Maybe you do have it easier. Does that mean that you are not equiped to
do the job? Does it mean that you care less about your patients? I think not.
Could it mean that those early students were over prepared? Perhaps.

Are medical residents still required to work 48 hour shifts? Does putting up
with such abuse make them better physicians?

The new graduates I have seen are highly competent and eager to learn.
Rest assured the future is in good hands

 

[TotalKayOs]

i was never debating that. i was just relaying a story from my prof. and i don't think someone could be over prepared.

 

[baggywrinkle]

i was never debating that. i was just relaying a story from my prof. and i don't think someone could be over prepared.

For sure you can never know enough. My classmates & I used to lament the
fact that you will only use 1-2% of the stuff they cram into your head. Problem is you will never know which material will be required and doggone if I wasn't asleep the day they lectured on what I need NOW 😀

It is also possible to be under utilized for your skill level. New grads just have to suffer through this when they discover that folks could care less about
structure activity relationship or Michalis Mentin kinetics - and weren't Henderson Hasselbach the guys who did Kermit & the muppets? All the pain
endured to master this stuff and all Matt Matt thinks of us is toilet paper on
isle three?

In the real world it is possible to be over prepared for what you actually **DO** yet all the preparation in the world may not be enough when the guano hits the fan and people are looking for someone to blame for what you SHOULD have known but did not. That is all I was trying to convey