PharmD/ PA programs

[Smilescali]

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I was just wondering if anyone is interested in or is currently enrolled in a PharmD/ PA program. How do you like it? What career paths are you going to pursue? Are there any special positions that can be obtained by earning this dual degree? Or will you just be a pharmacist with PA knowledge or visa versa? Thanks! 🙂

 

[GATOR Girl]

I was just wondering if anyone is interested in or is currently enrolled in a PharmD/ PA program. How do you like it? What career paths are you going to pursue? Are there any special positions that can be obtained by earning this dual degree? Or will you just be a pharmacist with PA knowledge or visa versa? Thanks! 🙂

That's a very interesting combo. What schools offer this?

 

[ultracet]

That's a very interesting combo. What schools offer this?

schools may offer this but not advertise it

just FYI

 

[Smilescali]

That's a very interesting combo. What schools offer this?

There was a thread about this and my computer is so darn slow that the search function seems to never work right.

Doesn't UW (Washington) offer this? I know there is a rumor about USN starting up a similar program. I am not sure of any other school.

 

[kwizard]

There was a thread about this and my computer is so darn slow that the search function seems to never work right.

Doesn't UW (Washington) offer this? I know there is a rumor about USN starting up a similar program. I am not sure of any other school.

Yep, I think UW has a program in addition to Univ of Florida. I'm sure that there may be other programs out there (maybe one at USC?). The main things to consider is what you expect out of the PA program. Is it prescribing priviliges and/or further knowledge of diagnostic criteria? In the private sector the prescribing priviliges will definitely give you a unique practice setting. I know of at least one PharmD/PA from UF who uses this in the ambulatory practice setting. However the other side of the fence is that if you work in the federal sector (i.e. Veterans Hospitals) the prescribing priviliges b/w PA and clinical Pharm.D are comparable in regards to med prescribing (unless of course you want to start ordering procedures and diagnostic issues). You might want to take a look at the actual curriculum for PA programs. It really is kind of interesting as its only about 1 yr of didactics and 1yr of rotations.

The devils advocate would say that the only "clear" advantage may be diagnoistic capacity and guaranteed prescribing priviliges in private sector, but you aren't necessarily guaranteed to make any more money. Depending on the region PharmDs may make more than PA and vice versa and depending on specialty some PAs make more than pharmacists. I think the national avg data collected by bureau of labor PharmDs on the avg still make more than avg NP or PA. Obviously the major exception would be nurse anesthesist and/or PA in surgery/anesthesia, but w/ those 2 exceptions you also have to consider extra practice time to achieve that goal. Pharmacy exception would be that indepent pharmacy owner who's doing anywhere from 150-300k/yr. Scheduling may vary b/w PA and PharmD as PAs typically supplement hrs in the evening and/or wknd when MD is not available (unless in ambulatory care and/or long term care setting).

So you are probably not going to get paid for both and pay is comparable b/w the 2 professions and unless you really want to have guaranteed yet limited diagnostic capability (compared to MD) and prescribing privileges in all sectors; I'd stick w/ PharmD or do one or the other. Or just go for the MD to make the whole debate mute. Time commitment may be similar excluding residency training w/ MD.

PharmD = 6yrs at least (Range: 6-10yrs)
-6yrs at least (unless in one of those newer 3yr PharmD program w/ 2yrs of pre pharm)
-1-2yrs PA may be another 2yrs unless they integrate it concurrently w/ PharmD program. Any residency training? (another 1-2 yrs)
-1-2yrs (residency training in pharmacy)

PA by itself: ~6yrs (undergrad degree 3-4 yrs + 2yrs of PA school)

NP: ~6yrs (at least)
-RN 2yrs w/ Associates
-Or another 2 yrs for BSN
-2yrs of rotations/clinical training, with possible addition yrs for specialty training

MD = ~11yrs at least depending on residency and/or post-doc

-Undergrad (3-4yrs)
-Med school (4yrs)
-At least another 3yrs for residency training


However, it is all about what you really want to do and what makes you happy (independent of pay) as opposed to how long it takes you to get there. After all, I spent 4yrs in undergrad + 4yrs for PharmD and 2 yrs in residency training so my total is 10yrs so I could of went the MD route as well in comparable amount of time. But I'm happy w/ my pay and happy w/ what I'm doing. The MD/PA/NP/PharmD/RN all bring something unique to the healthcare setting, but the value of your contribution will depend on how well you consistenly present it.

Just my opinion. FYI...the previous thread about this was in 3/05 (I think?)

 

[ultracet]

i think the PA only adds a year to pharmacy school
just incase anyone wondered

 

[Smilescali]

Yep, I think UW has a program in addition to Univ of Florida. I'm sure that there may be other programs out there (maybe one at USC?). The main things to consider is what you expect out of the PA program. Is it prescribing priviliges and/or further knowledge of diagnostic criteria? In the private sector the prescribing priviliges will definitely give you a unique practice setting. I know of at least one PharmD/PA from UF who uses this in the ambulatory practice setting. However the other side of the fence is that if you work in the federal sector (i.e. Veterans Hospitals) the prescribing priviliges b/w PA and clinical Pharm.D are comparable in regards to med prescribing (unless of course you want to start ordering procedures and diagnostic issues). You might want to take a look at the actual curriculum for PA programs. It really is kind of interesting as its only about 1 yr of didactics and 1yr of rotations.

The devils advocate would say that the only "clear" advantage may be diagnoistic capacity and guaranteed prescribing priviliges in private sector, but you aren't necessarily guaranteed to make any more money. Depending on the region PharmDs may make more than PA and vice versa and depending on specialty some PAs make more than pharmacists. I think the national avg data collected by bureau of labor PharmDs on the avg still make more than avg NP or PA. Obviously the major exception would be nurse anesthesist and/or PA in surgery/anesthesia, but w/ those 2 exceptions you also have to consider extra practice time to achieve that goal. Pharmacy exception would be that indepent pharmacy owner who's doing anywhere from 150-300k/yr. Scheduling may vary b/w PA and PharmD as PAs typically supplement hrs in the evening and/or wknd when MD is not available (unless in ambulatory care and/or long term care setting).

So you are probably not going to get paid for both and pay is comparable b/w the 2 professions and unless you really want to have guaranteed yet limited diagnostic capability (compared to MD) and prescribing privileges in all sectors; I'd stick w/ PharmD or do one or the other. Or just go for the MD to make the whole debate mute. Time commitment may be similar excluding residency training w/ MD.

PharmD = 6yrs at least (Range: 6-10yrs)
-6yrs at least (unless in one of those newer 3yr PharmD program w/ 2yrs of pre pharm)
-1-2yrs PA may be another 2yrs unless they integrate it concurrently w/ PharmD program. Any residency training? (another 1-2 yrs)
-1-2yrs (residency training in pharmacy)

PA by itself: ~6yrs (undergrad degree 3-4 yrs + 2yrs of PA school)

NP: ~6yrs (at least)
-RN 2yrs w/ Associates
-Or another 2 yrs for BSN
-2yrs of rotations/clinical training, with possible addition yrs for specialty training

MD = ~11yrs at least depending on residency and/or post-doc

-Undergrad (3-4yrs)
-Med school (4yrs)
-At least another 3yrs for residency training


However, it is all about what you really want to do and what makes you happy (independent of pay) as opposed to how long it takes you to get there. After all, I spent 4yrs in undergrad + 4yrs for PharmD and 2 yrs in residency training so my total is 10yrs so I could of went the MD route as well in comparable amount of time. But I'm happy w/ my pay and happy w/ what I'm doing. The MD/PA/NP/PharmD/RN all bring something unique to the healthcare setting, but the value of your contribution will depend on how well you consistenly present it.

Just my opinion. FYI...the previous thread about this was in 3/05 (I think?)

Wow, thank you for the very detailed and thoughtful post. The PharmD/ PA dual degree is just another "avenue" that I find interesting and I would like to explore it more. I figured the pay would not be significantly higher, but I thought maybe having a PA degree would open up more options in clinical settings.

My father-in-law is constantly telling me to look into PA school (because I won't follow in his foot steps and go to medical school! 😉 ) and my Physiology and Anatomy professor urged me in the same direction as they both feel that my personality is more suited for a job that has more patient interaction. I find this amusing beacuse I always thought pharmacists had a lot of patient interaction. 🙄

Overall, I find pharmacy much more fascinating and I really enjoy learning how drugs work in the body. It is kinda the "behind the scenes" story of what happens during an illness or injury. My favorite parts of Anatomy and Physiology were the endocrine/nervous and renal systems by far. I am definitely set on getting my PharmD, but am keeping my options open to explore other educational goals that will enhance my career. 🙂

Thanks bbmuffin as well! Only a year huh, so it is like the PharmD/ MBA dual degree in a way (I think that only adds a year as well)? hmmm.

 

[dgroulx]

At UF, it only adds one year to your schooling. If I wanted to be a PA, it would have been a shorter career path than pharmacy. I'm not sure why people choose both degrees, unless they really, really love being in school.

 

[kwizard]

Overall, I find pharmacy much more fascinating and I really enjoy learning how drugs work in the body. It is kinda the "behind the scenes" story of what happens during an illness or injury. My favorite parts of Anatomy and Physiology were the endocrine/nervous and renal systems by far. I am definitely set on getting my PharmD, but am keeping my options open to explore other educational goals that will enhance my career. 🙂

Thanks bbmuffin as well! Only a year huh, so it is like the PharmD/ MBA dual degree in a way (I think that only adds a year as well)? hmmm.

No problem. 🙂 As for the time committment b/w Pharm.D./MBA vs Pharm.D/PA. I think there are a few PharmD/MBA programs that you can complete in the same 4yrs as if you were just doing to Pharm.D. The main catch would be how much time you are willing to committ to the MBA program in the evening and during summer breaks.

But as far as pt contact that tends to vary depending on what type of pt contact you like. Yep, the pharmacist has a lot of pt contact in retail/community setting, but depending on how busy the store is, the setting may not always be ideal. However, this type of pt interaction is too often underappreciated by other professions as helping someone find the right cough medicine or OTC remedy and/or disease state management may be just as valuable to the pt as a PA seeing a pt in clinic and/or doing a history upon admission in inpt setting.

There is still plenty of pt contact in private sector for pharmacist in AC clinics, med management clinics, diabetes/lipid clinics. Like I mentioned previously in the Veterans system the sky is the limit when referring to pt contact and prescribing priviliges (typically except for controlled substances). The problem w/ all of this is that as pharmacists we haven't quite convinced insurance companies to allow us to bill for service to increase our autonomy in private sector.

I guess another question would be what type of job would you apply for: clinical PharmD job or PA as I don't know if there is a market to appreciate someone w/ both. The one's I've seen in academia basically have practice sites in the ambulatory setting along side other PharmDs. Do you know any PAs that you could ask about their opinions about the dual degree? I'd then ask a clinical PharmD w/ residency training working in an am. care setting and see if they think a PA degree would be of any added benefit. (for my 2 cents having worked in am care setting/inpt setting, I don't see the benefit, but I'm biased given my background). Or search out one of those w/ the dual degree and see what they think.

Again, in the end it, is about what makes you happy. If you'd rather do the two degrees at the same time in 5yrs and feel like you would be kicking yourself down the road for not having done so, then go for the two degrees and save yourself the 1yr (as opposed to doing them separately PharmD 4yrs + 2 yrs for PA).

 

[dgroulx]

I just looked and UF discontinued their joint degree PA program. I don't know why.

 

[KristenN]

Just to let you all know, the University of Florida discontinued the Pharm D/PA program....it's on the COP website. I don't know why they did, but it's gone.

 

[KristenN]

We both posted the last comment on UF at the same exact time, 10:20, LOL

 

[ButlerPharm.D.]

I believe most PA programs are moving towards a Masters level curriculum. As a result most PA programs are 3 years long, 2 years of didactic course work and 1 year of rotations.

 

[Smilescali]

Kwizard,

I know plenty of students that are applying to PA school this year in my Organic chemistry class and over the last few semesters and I have actually asked them what they thought of a dual degree. To my surprise none of them were aware of such a dual degree (in fact a lot of them were unaware that there was such a thing as a Doctor of Pharmacy degree 😕 ....that is another issue all together though...)

Maybe I'll post something in the PA forum regarding this issue. (I think that there is a PA forum?)

If you have a PharmD/ PA degree then I guess the question is what you said.. Are you going to be a clinical pharmacist or s PA with a lot of pharmacy knowledge (unless you go into one of the other career paths that you had mentioned).

Like I said, I am just investigating additional educational goals and to see what other degrees/ programs there are out there that can potentially synergize a PharmD (ie MBA/ PA/ PhD (especially Pharmacogenomics 😉 or pharmacy residencies.) SDN has been a wonderful site for me to gain insight/ opinions on these types of inquiries. Thank you again.

 

[Smilescali]

I believe most PA programs are moving towards a Masters level curriculum. As a result most PA programs are 3 years long, 2 years of didactic course work and 1 year of rotations.

Yes, this is true. So if one pursues a PA/PharmD dual degree then they would not be receiving the masters level curriculum? I was wondering how they could fit 3 years into 1 additional year beyond your PharmD. Everyone I know that is planning on being a PA is applying to 3 year programs.

 

[ultracet]

Yes, this is true. So if one pursues a PA/PharmD dual degree then they would not be receiving the masters level curriculum? I was wondering how they could fit 3 years into 1 additional year beyond your PharmD. Everyone I know that is planning on being a PA is applying to 3 year programs.

they have a few extra classes during our regular school year

they also do not have to take some of the classes (i.e. pharmacology) through the PA program and they just use the pharmacy classes.

they don't get out of any pharmacy school classes though

 

[bananaface]

There was a thread about this and my computer is so darn slow that the search function seems to never work right.

Doesn't UW (Washington) offer this? I know there is a rumor about USN starting up a similar program. I am not sure of any other school.

UW has one but I don't know that anyone has ever applied for it since the program was opened. You have to be accepted to one program or the other to apply, I believe. I don't think it'd really help you unless you want to be PA-C. Now, if in-office dispensing for profit became legal, some doc might snap you up more readily as a staff member. Eh, I don't get the logic of the combo.

 

[calrx]

This is interesting...

but I think doing a residency after pharm school would be more beneficial

 

[kwizard]

This is interesting...

but I think doing a residency after pharm school would be more beneficial

Calrx makes a good point. If you go the PharmD/PA route and still want to be a PharmD then you still run the risk of being perceived as "underqualified" for many clinical positions in pharmacy as clinical positions often go to people w/ residency training and/or board certification. Given the different foci of PAs and PharmDs, I'd agree that the combo would benefit the PA from a point of knowledge; however the benefit to the PharmD isn't as clear (as I mentioned previously). I guess the recent posts by CalRx and others are some points I hadn't previously considered.