PharmD + PA?

[orthomyxo]

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I've heard of PharmD/PA dual degree programs, but how likely would it be for a PharmD to land a spot in PA school after they graduated?

 

[MrMeowphers]

choose one or the other...

that's a lot of $$$ to spend son.

If you want to be a physician, go to MD/DO school for 7-8 years (where u only have to spend 4 years in actual school)

PharmD/PA schools tend to be 6 years from what I gather online...

 

[orthomyxo]

choose one or the other...

that's a lot of $$$ to spend son.

If you want to be a physician, go to MD/DO school for 7-8 years (where u only have to spend 4 years in actual school)

PharmD/PA schools tend to be 6 years from what I gather online...

Or, I could be a PA with full MD autonomy while also having the drug knowledge of a PharmD. You say "go to MD/DO school" like it's easy. There's a reason why they created PharmD/PA dual degree programs...people do not want to choose one or the other. Also, getting an MPAS degree is only 30 months if you already have a degree.

 

[boltdude]

Or, I could be a PA with full MD autonomy while also having the drug knowledge of a PharmD. You say "go to MD/DO school" like it's easy. There's a reason why they created PharmD/PA dual degree programs...people do not want to choose one or the other. Also, getting an MPAS degree is only 30 months if you already have a degree.

Thing is I doubt PharmD/PAs will have a significant practical knowledge with regards to practicing medicine. You may have greater theoretical knowledge, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will translate into the job function of a PA (diagnosis, etc). If you want to just do PA stuff, I don't really see a point in taking the 4 years and doing a PharmD. Good luck!

 

[drpharMD]

^ I respectfully disagree with the above poster. I actually plan to go to PA school as well AFTER pharm school, and I think that having that Pharm.D background will help find a stellar position with an established surgical practice. Imagine being able to diagnose, operate, follow-up, AND prescribe meds for a patient. How valuable would that be to a potential MD employer? I have the feeling that this trend will be VERY marketable in the future.

 

[nicolemsm]

I've heard of PharmD/PA dual degree programs, but how likely would it be for a PharmD to land a spot in PA school after they graduated?

That'd be so sick.

I googled some combined programs but the only one I stumbled upon was University of WA are there any others?

 

[boltdude]

^ I respectfully disagree with the above poster. I actually plan to go to PA school as well AFTER pharm school, and I think that having that Pharm.D background will help find a stellar position with an established surgical practice. Imagine being able to diagnose, operate, follow-up, AND prescribe meds for a patient. How valuable would that be to a potential MD employer? I have the feeling that this trend will be VERY marketable in the future.

You can diagnose, operate, follow-up AND prescribe meds without a PharmD. lol. In fact, you can't do those things you listed with a PharmD, except maybe for the following up part...

 

[EddieL]

That'd be so sick.

I googled some combined programs but the only one I stumbled upon was University of WA are there any others?

There are three that I know of, University of Washington, University of Kentucky, and Washington State.

 

[orthomyxo]

You can diagnose, operate, follow-up AND prescribe meds without a PharmD. lol. In fact, you can't do those things you listed with a PharmD, except maybe for the following up part...

Yes, but a regular PA's pharm knowledge is extremely inferior to a PharmD's, just as a PharmD's diagnosing knowledge is inferior to a PA's. IMO the combination works perfectly. It's the best of both worlds.

 

[drpharMD]

You can diagnose, operate, follow-up AND prescribe meds without a PharmD. lol. In fact, you can't do those things you listed with a PharmD, except maybe for the following up part...

^ Touche, I also meant to dispense the meds as well. The opportunity to form independent contracts with the surgeons/docs you work with and your phamacy you may work with provides a potentially lucrative situation. You just cant do that with either degree.

 

[CH3]

^ Touche, I also meant to dispense the meds as well. The opportunity to form independent contracts with the surgeons/docs you work with and your phamacy you may work with provides a potentially lucrative situation. You just cant do that with either degree.

I'm not sure but I believe you're not allowed to prescribe and dispense medications since it is a conflict of interest.

 

[orthomyxo]

I'm not sure but I believe you're not allowed to prescribe and dispense medications since it is a conflict of interest.

I agree. I'm pretty sure you would only be able to take on the responsibilities and duties of one degree, and just use the knowledge you gained with the other. I doubt they would let you jump behind the pharmacy counter and dispense the meds you just prescribed.

 

[boltdude]

Yes, but a regular PA's pharm knowledge is extremely inferior to a PharmD's, just as a PharmD's diagnosing knowledge is inferior to a PA's. IMO the combination works perfectly. It's the best of both worlds.

This is the type of logic that makes me want to find the [roll eyes] smiley face on my right panel.

 

[waterloggedfrog]

This does seem like a pretty cool idea, I'm considering it myself now, but the massive ammount of school might keep me away.

 

[drpharMD]

I don't think that is necessarily true. You can work 2-3 days a week as a PA, then work as a Pharmacist for the rest of the week if needed. Why couldn't you refer the patients you work with to your specific pharmacy, or open up one within the office? You don't have to FORCE the patient to buy from your office, but just offer them the option. Who wouldn't want to go down the hall to get their meds rather than drive a number of miles?

 

[orthomyxo]

This does seem like a pretty cool idea, I'm considering it myself now, but the massive ammount of school might keep me away.

True. If I wasn't in a 0-6 I probably wouldn't consider it, but since I'll have my PharmD very young, it won't be too bad. Nine years is still less than the time it would take to become a physician.

 

[orthomyxo]

I don't think that is necessarily true. You can work 2-3 days a week as a PA, then work as a Pharmacist for the rest of the week if needed. Why couldn't you refer the patients you work with to your specific pharmacy, or open up one within the office? You don't have to FORCE the patient to buy from your office, but just offer them the option. Who wouldn't want to go down the hall to get their meds rather than drive a number of miles?

Having two professional jobs just would not look good to employers. I'm sure each respective field wants people who are dedicated to whatever they'll be doing. I mean, do you REALLY need the satisfaction of filling a bottle with the pills that you prescribed? Anyways, like someone else said, it's a conflict of interest. Obviously you would dispense your own script. Having someone else do it just reinforces the fact that the treatment is reasonable.

 

[orthomyxo]

This is the type of logic that makes me want to find the [roll eyes] smiley face on my right panel.

Care to elaborate? Explain to me how a pharm grad, whos core curriculum focused on drugs, will not outperform a PA that has taken 2 semesters of clinical pharmacology. Similarly, how would a PA that essentially goes through a condensed version of med school not out-diagnose a pharmacist?

 

[drpharMD]

Having two professional jobs just would not look good to employers. I'm sure each respective field wants people who are dedicated to whatever they'll be doing. I mean, do you REALLY need the satisfaction of filling a bottle with the pills that you prescribed? Anyways, like someone else said, it's a conflict of interest. Obviously you would dispense your own script. Having someone else do it just reinforces the fact that the treatment is reasonable.

If you are a CT surgeon with your own group practice, why wouldn't you want to hire a PA with a Pharm D. to operate out of your office? Have your PA do the majority of the surgery and follow-up, as well as the CT surgeon having a cut of the monies used to purchase the meds out of the pharm office within your practice? Are you telling me that a physician would say NO to something like this?

 

[orthomyxo]

If you are a CT surgeon with your own group practice, why wouldn't you want to hire a PA with a Pharm D. to operate out of your office? Have your PA do the majority of the surgery and follow-up, as well as the CT surgeon having a cut of the monies used to purchase the meds out of the pharm office within your practice? Are you telling me that a physician would say NO to something like this?

PA's can't do cardiothoracic procedures by themselves. They can be first assist, but I'm almost positive that the MD/DO has to perform the surgery.

I never said it would be a bad idea, but IMO it's unrealistic to think that you will be able to practice as both a PA and a PharmD seperately or together. Pick one profession to practice, use the other degree for general knowledge.

 

[pharm B]

I thought the idea was appealing, so I looked up UW's program a few months ago. From what I remember, you had to be accepted into and attending their SOP before applying for the PA program. I wasn't willing to take a gamble that involved the family moving halfway across the country.

It would be neat to gain the knowledge seen in the PA curriculum, but I would have to weigh the pros and cons before deciding. As mentioned above, it takes out the benefit of getting a job sooner (as a PharmD) than having to complete an internship, residency, etc(MD/DO).

It brings up the question of whether or not someone really wants to be a PharmD, or if they're still trying to become an MD/DO in another fashion.

 

[Bears683]

If you are a CT surgeon with your own group practice, why wouldn't you want to hire a PA with a Pharm D. to operate out of your office? Have your PA do the majority of the surgery and follow-up, as well as the CT surgeon having a cut of the monies used to purchase the meds out of the pharm office within your practice? Are you telling me that a physician would say NO to something like this?

I don't think you have a firm understanding of the role of the PA position in surgery. A PA can only be a first assist at most. Meaning, they can retract, maybe make opening incision or closing up, but an attending physician must be present. In fact, an attending has to be present at ALL surgeries. The only time that an attending's present is not required is if the Chief Resident is the one doing the surgery. Even then, most place still require an attending to supervise. A PA maybe able to do small stuff in the outpatient setting such as a quick incision and rain but nothing big in the OR. At bigger institution, the residents usually would be the first assist instead of the PA. Residents are cheaper labor and they're more knowledgeable as well as it's training for them. At smaller hospital without a surgery residency then there would be more need for PA's.

 

[drpharMD]

I don't think you have a firm understanding of the role of the PA position in surgery. A PA can only be a first assist at most. Meaning, they can retract, maybe make opening incision or closing up, but an attending physician must be present. In fact, an attending has to be present at ALL surgeries. The only time that an attending's present is not required is if the Chief Resident is the one doing the surgery. Even then, most place still require an attending to supervise. A PA maybe able to do small stuff in the outpatient setting such as a quick incision and rain but nothing big in the OR. At bigger institution, the residents usually would be the first assist instead of the PA. Residents are cheaper labor and they're more knowledgeable as well as it's training for them. At smaller hospital without a surgery residency then there would be more need for PA's.

I understand the role of PA's completely. I was referring to private practice groups, not within a hospital setting. No resident is going to be present. Secondly, there are some groups where the PA does most of the work within the surgery, while the attending supervises (mostly simple procedures, but you would be surprised). For some of the busier private clinics, the PAs are the ones who are perfoming the majority of the procedures, though an attending is supervising. You can make much more money working with PAs than you can by yourself, and this trend is most definitely catching on.

In most cases, PAs are first assists. It depends on the specialty and climate of the practice.

 

[boltdude]

Care to elaborate? Explain to me how a pharm grad, whos core curriculum focused on drugs, will not outperform a PA that has taken 2 semesters of clinical pharmacology. Similarly, how would a PA that essentially goes through a condensed version of med school not out-diagnose a pharmacist?

Like I said, a PharmD/PA will have a greater theoretical knowledge, but I doubt it will translate into the job function of a PA. If a patient comes in with an ear infection, you don't really need to know all the complexities of antimicrobial therapy to know that you need to give the patient a certain type of antibiotic.

I think the PharmD/PA is mainly for students who want to practice in rural areas where PharmDs actually provide medical care since there's a shortage of health care professionals in those areas. I know UW is big on rural care so that's why they are one of the very few schools who offer it.

 

[orthomyxo]

I don't think you have a firm understanding of the role of the PA position in surgery. A PA can only be a first assist at most. Meaning, they can retract, maybe make opening incision or closing up, but an attending physician must be present. In fact, an attending has to be present at ALL surgeries. The only time that an attending's present is not required is if the Chief Resident is the one doing the surgery. Even then, most place still require an attending to supervise. A PA maybe able to do small stuff in the outpatient setting such as a quick incision and rain but nothing big in the OR. At bigger institution, the residents usually would be the first assist instead of the PA. Residents are cheaper labor and they're more knowledgeable as well as it's training for them. At smaller hospital without a surgery residency then there would be more need for PA's.

I'm fine with first assist. Pharmacy seems so passive, so doing a few sutures seems pretty exciting to me.

 

[MrMeowphers]

Or, I could be a PA with full MD autonomy while also having the drug knowledge of a PharmD. You say "go to MD/DO school" like it's easy. There's a reason why they created PharmD/PA dual degree programs...people do not want to choose one or the other. Also, getting an MPAS degree is only 30 months if you already have a degree.

Full MD autonomy?

I didn't say "going to MD/DO school WILL be easy" nor did I refer to getting in being easy; but if you want FULL "MD AUTONOMY" and you're willing to consider a PharmD/PA, then if you put your best effort in and TRY for medical school, then maybe you could get in?

This whole thread is about you defending your choice of wanting to try to get a PharmD/PA, you're obviously not interested in anyone elses input.

And your quote here:
"... Pharmacy seems so passive, so doing a few sutures seems pretty exciting to me."

Shows that you would rather be doing something "exciting." You might as well turn back and try for med. school and be a real physician. Not the one that is dependent on MD's for employment even though you claim they possess "full MD autonomy." 🙄

 

[chemguy79]

Yes, but a regular PA's pharm knowledge is extremely inferior to a PharmD's, just as a PharmD's diagnosing knowledge is inferior to a PA's. IMO the combination works perfectly. It's the best of both worlds.

It sounds like you want to have the abilities and power of a doctor without attending medical school, pursuing a residency, etc.. However, It doesn't really work that way; Every position within the health care field serves a particular purpose. If you want to have that level of patient diagnosis, you should apply to medical school. I completely agree with MrMeowphers when he wrote This whole thread is about you defending your choice of wanting to try to get a PharmD/PA, you're obviously not interested in anyone elses input.

I worked in an optometrist office for 4.5 years during undergrad; We had a new optometrist come into the office and attempt to be the primary care provider for various ailments. (In Indiana, the state board of optometry has more autonomy than most states.) The doctors in the practice had a meeting and bluntly told him that if he wanted to be a medical doctor, he should have attended medical school.

 

[MrMeowphers]

It sounds like you want to have the abilities and power of a doctor without attending medical school, pursuing a residency, etc.. However, It doesn't really work that way; Every position within the health care field serves a particular purpose. If you want to have that level of patient diagnosis, you should apply to medical school. I completely agree with MrMeowphers when he wrote This whole thread is about you defending your choice of wanting to try to get a PharmD/PA, you're obviously not interested in anyone elses input.

I worked in an optometrist office for 4.5 years during undergrad; We had a new optometrist come into the office and attempt to be the primary care provider for various ailments. (In Indiana, the state board of optometry has more autonomy than most states.) The doctors in the practice had a meeting and bluntly told him that if he wanted to be a medical doctor, he should have attended medical school.

Dare I say it? Well spoken, and Owned!!! 👍

I just laugh at how one of the reasons the OP states he wants to go back to PA school is because "he'll be young when he finishes his PharmD program". If you want to do real medicine, then take your PharmD and head to Med. school; it's never too late.

After I finish Pharm School I will have a BS, MS, PhD, and a PharmD to top off my sundae. Do I regret not being "young" when I finish? No, I enjoy the ride.

 

[orthomyxo]

Dare I say it? Well spoken, and Owned!!! 👍

I just laugh at how one of the reasons the OP states he wants to go back to PA school is because "he'll be young when he finishes his PharmD program". If you want to do real medicine, then take your PharmD and head to Med. school; it's never too late.

After I finish Pharm School I will have a BS, MS, PhD, and a PharmD to top off my sundae. Do I regret not being "young" when I finish? No, I enjoy the ride.

Oh yea, that's just so darn funny! Tell me what's wrong with that. I would rather not be a thirty year old man just starting my residency, which is exactly what I'd be if I chose to go to medical school.

Key phrase: "one of the reasons he wants to go...to PA school." If it were the only reason, sure I'd question my motive too, but it isn't. Unless you know me better than me, you can stop trying to look clever with your theories about the reasoning behind the creation of this thread. Maybe I wouldn't have to "defend" my wanting to go to PA school if someone would actually respond to the question I asked and didn't just throw out useless opinions.

Show me one post that touches upon the likelihood of a PharmD gaining acceptance to PA school, and I will admit that I have been owned.

 

[MNMan]

I don't understand why so many threads end up becoming inquisitions. This is a place to share information, not question each others true motives.

 

[andrewsmack05]

Mr. Meowphers, I have wanted to ask this ever since I have seen your signature. Do you have no debt at all or are you in debt up past your eyeballs? You have impressive credentials, I just wonder what all this is gonna cost?

 

[atticus27]

You gotta do a cost-benefit analysis.


Is it worth it to spend 4 years in a rigorous pharmd program for the possibility of slightly better pay/working conditions as a PA while being an extra 100k in debt? nope. Even if you have no extra debt it's a waste of 4 years.

Sure it's mildly impressive to know a PA has a pharmd. But after being on the job a while a non-pharmd PA will provide the same level of care.

 

[EddieL]

You gotta do a cost-benefit analysis.


Is it worth it to spend 4 years in a rigorous pharmd program for the possibility of slightly better pay/working conditions as a PA while being an extra 100k in debt? nope. Even if you have no extra debt it's a waste of 4 years.

Sure it's mildly impressive to know a PA has a pharmd. But after being on the job a while a non-pharmd PA will provide the same level of care.

FYI, PA school is only two (or three depending on the program) years, not four.

And I think the ideal candidate for a PharmD/PA would be someone looking for a more MD like role in a clinical setting. However, an experienced PA would pretty much have identical opportunities.

 

[atticus27]

FYI, PA school is only two (or three depending on the program) years, not four.

I said a 4 year pharmd program.

 

[MrMeowphers]

Mr. Meowphers, I have wanted to ask this ever since I have seen your signature. Do you have no debt at all or are you in debt up past your eyeballs? You have impressive credentials, I just wonder what all this is gonna cost?

The only debt I had was from my bachelors degree (student loans).

I had a full ride for the MS, and a PhD program in Science will pay for your tuition + living stipend.

Thanks for asking 👍

However, I was toying around with "totaling" how much it theoretically would have cost for tuition + living (if I had to pay for it all).

MS at Harvard = $130,000 (Tuition is 35 K a year, with a 30 K living stipend)
PhD at Stanford = $450,000 (Tuition is 40 K a year, with a 35 K living stipend). However, this number is inflated since "tuition" drops off substantially after your 2nd year in the program, and continues to decrease till you finish (since you're no longer taking courses).

Could I have fronted that kind of money? Heck no!