Pharmers on Midlevels

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quickfeet

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I made the whole story up just for a juicy thread, I apologize.


Please disregard this thread. I'm sure there are competent mid-levels out there, I made this thread to illicit a "controversial response" and see what peoples opinions are about them. I am sorry.
 
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That can happen with any of the myriad of people who can write prescriptions. I sometimes wonder if they just throw a dart at a wall with a bunch of drug names written on it to decide what to prescribe. This goes for NP, PA, MD and DO's. Just like there are good pharmacists and bad pharmacists there are good prescribers and bad.
 
http://www.theangrypharmacist.com/archives/2006/07/cnmpanp_home_he.html

^ warning some vulgar language

So I read TAP and I was wondering, how do you all feel about Midlevel providers? I had an ANP argue with me the other day that propranolol was perfectly safe to give someone with hypertension due to acute amphetamine overdose. I asked her to google "beta blockers + amphetamine toxicity" on her little ipad and she goes, "Oh..." :bang::bang::bang::bang: Now don't get me wrong, these are mostly nice people who oftentimes are a lot easier to deal with than some of the arrogant *****s with medical degrees but its situations like this where I wanna throw my head through a plate glass window.

Perhaps it's easy for someone who spends time doing nothing but sitting behind the comfort of a plexiglass window learning the technical and biomechanical details of drugs & theoretical drug interactions to be critical of those that do the actual direct providing of care, but for those of us that have to deal with patients on a day-by-day basis--the "arrogant *****s with medical degrees"--we have a helluva lot more to deal with than reading the red book.

So let me get this straight: you're an expert on pharmacokinetics and drug properties, but haven't a clue about anatomy, physiology, and pathology associated with the disease processes those drugs are treating, yet these mid-levels and "arrogant *****" physicians make you throw your head against a plate glass window... and say what, that you could do better? That your vast experience learning drug mechanics & properties makes you better able to treat a patient?

Congratulations, you one-up'd a freakin' nurse with your vast drug knowledge. And that trumps the pharm who effed up the concentration of eye drops after a 23 yr old woman had LASIK, essentially frying & blinding the poor woman? I don't know what the hell drops she had; I'm not a pharmacist, nor am I an ophthalmologist, and I don't really care, but she's blind, and I know that for a fact.
Point being, mistakes happen in every nook & cranny of medicine, from the lowliest of physicians to the most gifted and talented pharmacist.

BTW my "Resident" status is that of a 5-year physician residency, not a 1 or 2 year PharmD "internship"...
Also BTW...these "midlevels" often have just as much schooling as you because they actually finish their bachelors prior to their 2+yrs post baccalaureate education, vs ~2 yrs of college and 4 yrs of post baccalaureate (6 yrs any way you cut it).
 
So let me get this straight: you're an expert on pharmacokinetics and drug properties, but haven't a clue about anatomy, physiology, and pathology associated with the disease processes those drugs are treating, yet these mid-levels and "arrogant *****" physicians make you throw your head against a plate glass window... and say what, that you could do better? That your vast experience learning drug mechanics & properties makes you better able to treat a patient?


I disagree with this statement. Or maybe you were using hyperbole because the OP successfully baited you? I get that.
 
I disagree with this statement. Or maybe you were using hyperbole because the OP successfully baited you? I get that.

Obviously pharmacists have a "clue" about the underlying pathology & A&P associated with diseases.

But, I will agree with Shrute in that Pharmacists are not in any way trained in the diagnosis and MDs/DOs/PAs/NPs recieve far more training in diagnosis/treatment and diseases, but once again, when they prescribe, they won't know merely as much as pharmd's know about the interaction of the drug.

tomato, tomatoe
 
I spent a day at a Kroger with one of the NP run clinics and the NP came back to the pharmacy at least 5 times to ask what she should prescribe for the patient she was seeing.

I'm not saying they aren't qualified to diagnose..and they aren't all bad - I saw a very knowledgeable NP that worked for a respiratory doc ...I think nurses that have more experience and then go back to be an NP and stay in that area just have more to work with..To come out after the additional 2ish years straight to prescribing just creates (for what I've seen) some bad choices.
 
I think the OP came off a little strong, however, schrute i think its a bit of an understatement to say we don't know anything about pathology, physiology, ok may be not so much gross anatomy. However, i think the underlining theme is that there are fuk ups for MD,DO,PharmD,NP,PA,RN. No one is perfect.
 
we have a helluva lot more to deal with than reading the red book. ).

This isn't 1960. Who the hell needs or reads the red book?

So let me get this straight: you're an expert on pharmacokinetics and drug properties, but haven't a clue about anatomy, physiology, and pathology associated with the disease processes those drugs are treating,

Now this is just funny! Yep, just drugs in Pharm schoool and nothing else!
 
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BTW my "Resident" status is that of a 5-year physician residency, not a 1 or 2 year PharmD "internship"...
Also BTW...these "midlevels" often have just as much schooling as you because they actually finish their bachelors prior to their 2+yrs post baccalaureate education, vs ~2 yrs of college and 4 yrs of post baccalaureate (6 yrs any way you cut it).

Translation: Rarrrrrr I'm better than you lowly pharmacists and so is my career Rarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


Lol. Good for you dude.
 
Translation: Rarrrrrr I'm better than you lowly pharmacists and so is my career Rarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


Lol. Good for you dude.

No, I just can't help by LMFAO when I see pharmDs acting high & mighty because someone (midlevel, phsyician, whoever) comes to them for information.

My point, other than everyone makes mistakes and chastising a nurse or NP is useless, is that pharms and physicians (and midlevels) have a knowledge base within a defined role, with the understanding there is overlap of knowledge. And my post was to defend midlevels as what they are: midlevels, and banging your head serves no purpose other then demonstrating how highly you think of yourself.

I don't have beef with pharms being pharms, but banging your head in disgust with the lack of pharm knowledge of a midlevel is pathetic.

I do have beef with pharms trying to be primary care providers & setting up clinics to manage medications, and if that's an argument anyone really wants to enter I'd be more than happy to join the discussion.
 
ohmehgehhhd, this is gonna be epic. please let this continue. it's been far too boring here.

nice royal crown chinpoko master title btw. I too am training to destroy the evil power that will reveal itself once I have collected all the chinpokomon.
 
http://www.theangrypharmacist.com/archives/2006/07/cnmpanp_home_he.html

^ warning some vulgar language

So I read TAP and I was wondering, how do you all feel about Midlevel providers? I had an ANP argue with me the other day that propranolol was perfectly safe to give someone with hypertension due to acute amphetamine overdose. I asked her to google "beta blockers + amphetamine toxicity" on her little ipad and she goes, "Oh..." :bang::bang::bang::bang: Now don't get me wrong, these are mostly nice people who oftentimes are a lot easier to deal with than some of the arrogant *****s with medical degrees but its situations like this where I wanna throw my head through a plate glass window.

it's not their job to know every drug interaction... i don't see why you would bash a nurse for not knowing something he/she isn't supposed to know. i'm pretty embarrassed that a pharmacy resident would start a thread like this...
 
I do have beef with pharms trying to be primary care providers & setting up clinics to manage medications, and if that's an argument anyone really wants to enter I'd be more than happy to join the discussion.

i'd like to hear your opinion.
 
it's not their job to know every drug interaction... i don't see why you would bash a nurse for not knowing something he/she isn't supposed to know. i'm pretty embarrassed that a pharmacy resident would start a thread like this...

i'd like to hear your opinion.

Yes to both of these.
 
BTW my "Resident" status is that of a 5-year physician residency, not a 1 or 2 year PharmD "internship"...
Also BTW...these "midlevels" often have just as much schooling as you because they actually finish their bachelors prior to their 2+yrs post baccalaureate education, vs ~2 yrs of college and 4 yrs of post baccalaureate (6 yrs any way you cut it).
I was with you on a lot of your post but this bugs. I have 5 years undergrad (4 for BA then another 1 for pharm pre-reqs when I went back), 4 years pharm school and 1 year of residency. No, it's not a lengthy 5 year residency, but don't call it an "internship" because it's not the same as a medical residency. I would never compare it to a medical residency, but mocking it just makes you sound like an arrogant douche, which I'm sure you are not.
 
I do have beef with pharms trying to be primary care providers & setting up clinics to manage medications, and if that's an argument anyone really wants to enter I'd be more than happy to join the discussion.

First lets take out this statement "pharms trying to be primary care providers." Despite all the students with thier heads filled with BS from the ivory tower of acedemia most experienced practicing Pharmacists have no desire to be a primary care provider.

To the last part of your statement I have to ask why? Who better to manage a patients medications than a Pharmacist? It would be nice if Primary Care Docs would do it but it isn't happening. There is not much being managed when you have to carry 5000 active patients and in order to make any money you have to double book 15 minute appointments from open to close 5 days a week. There is not much time to manage anything during a 15 minute appointment every 6 months.

Most Primary Care Docs have there hands full with all that is involved with the physical exam, diagnosis of any problems and the selection of appropriate drug therapy. Do you need to be an MD to adjust someones medications per a written protocol? There are many ways a Pharmacist can help. Considering 90% of all Doctors visits end up with a prescription being written for something we are all ready a big part of what you do.

The best model I have seen is the VA's system. If the civillain world adopted it there would be a huge cost saving as well as improvement in outcomes.
Imagine the time you would have to spend with your patients if you had a good competent Pharmacist helping you manage medication therapy! Again do you need to be an MD to read lab values and adjust medications based on a predesigned protocol that you have written and approved?

Oh wait there I go again! My head in the clouds wanting to be a primary care docotr. Shame on me!!! I know there is no way I could look at lab values and adjust medications. Gosh sir you started your cholesterol medication 3 months ago and have had only a slight imporovement. Your LFT test are fine and you have no complaints of muscle pain or weekness. You have changed you diet and started an exercise program. I see you have lost five pounds good for you. Hmmmm what should we do? Gosh, I am in over my head we better kick this up to the MD. I am only a Pharmacist after all and all I know how to do is count the cholesterol medication.
 
First lets take out this statement "pharms trying to be primary care providers." Despite all the students with thier heads filled with BS from the ivory tower of acedemia most experienced practicing Pharmacists have no desire to be a primary care provider.

To the last part of your statement I have to ask why? Who better to manage a patients medications than a Pharmacist? It would be nice if Primary Care Docs would do it but it isn't happening. There is not much being managed when you have to carry 5000 active patients and in order to make any money you have to double book 15 minute appointments from open to close 5 days a week. There is not much time to manage anything during a 15 minute appointment every 6 months.

Most Primary Care Docs have there hands full with all that is involved with the physical exam, diagnosis of any problems and the selection of appropriate drug therapy. Do you need to be an MD to adjust someones medications per a written protocol? There are many ways a Pharmacist can help. Considering 90% of all Doctors visits end up with a prescription being written for something we are all ready a big part of what you do.

The best model I have seen is the VA's system. If the civillain world adopted it there would be a huge cost saving as well as improvement in outcomes.
Imagine the time you would have to spend with your patients if you had a good competent Pharmacist helping you manage medication therapy! Again do you need to be an MD to read lab values and adjust medications based on a predesigned protocol that you have written and approved?

Oh wait there I go again! My head in the clouds wanting to be a primary care docotr. Shame on me!!! I know there is no way I could look at lab values and adjust medications. Gosh sir you started your cholesterol medication 3 months ago and have had only a slight imporovement. Your LFT test are fine and you have no complaints of muscle pain or weekness. You have changed you diet and started an exercise program. I see you have lost five pounds good for you. Hmmmm what should we do? Gosh, I am in over my head we better kick this up to the MD. I am only a Pharmacist after all and all I know how to do is count the cholesterol medication.


^
^
^

Obvious copy and paste.. or he might have left on the computer and his wife got on.

:meanie:
 
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I do have beef with pharms trying to be primary care providers & setting up clinics to manage medications, and if that's an argument anyone really wants to enter I'd be more than happy to join the discussion.

u-mad-cuz-im-stylin-on-u.jpg

imgres
 
I do have beef with pharms trying to be primary care providers & setting up clinics to manage medications, and if that's an argument anyone really wants to enter I'd be more than happy to join the discussion.

Jesus Christ. You are just setting yourself up to look like a ****ing idiot.

Don't you know that the pharmacy dorks that post on this forum have a giant stack of studies that show pharmacists improve outcomes and reduce cost in MTM? They pleasure themselves to them every night, I imagine. Just how they roll. I've seen it a thousand times. Narcissistic not-quite-a-real-physician-yet type comes on the pharmacy forum...tells them they are idiots...the pharmacy dorks play with him and let him dig himself into a nice, huge hole...then 3 pages later, they bring out The Asheville Project crap...and dozens of others...the narcissistic not-quite-a-real-physician-yet type then is never heard from again.

I'm rooting for you though. Just like I rooted for the kids from the Cobra Kai in the Karate Kid. There is something about an almost cartoonish villain you just have to love. If *I* was you, I'd start pretentiously rambling on about anatomy. Pharmacists have no reason to remember anything about that crap. Start listing off all of the tiny, insignificant bones nobody cares to remember. That might confuse them and allow you to slip through unscathed.
 
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Dude...that hoodie is the ****. If I was 8 years old, I'd wear that **** twice a week.

I bet you have three of those in adult sizes that you were every day. I agree it is awesome though, much better than the ninja turtles s*** that I had when I was 7.
 
Narcissistic not-quite-a-real-physician-yet

Better than narcissistic not-quite-a-real-physician-ever.


"Never heard from again"? Yeah, probably...don't have the time. But for all the chiros, pharms, podiatrists, NPs, and every other ancillary / midlevel provider student/resident that comes on the med school / residency forums, I figure I owe each of them a few.
 
Better than narcissistic not-quite-a-real-physician-ever.


"Never heard from again"? Yeah, probably...don't have the time. But for all the chiros, pharms, podiatrists, NPs, and every other ancillary / midlevel provider student/resident that comes on the med school / residency forums, I figure I owe each of them a few.

Your post makes me sad for you. 🙁
 
Congratulations, you one-up'd a freakin' nurse with your vast drug knowledge. And that trumps the pharm who effed up the concentration of eye drops after a 23 yr old woman had LASIK, essentially frying & blinding the poor woman? I don't know what the hell drops she had; I'm not a pharmacist, nor am I an ophthalmologist, and I don't really care, but she's blind, and I know that for a fact.
Point being, mistakes happen in every nook & cranny of medicine, from the lowliest of physicians to the most gifted and talented pharmacist.

You should know that many pharmacists don't consider all doctors arrogant or NP/PAs stupid. I know I have no business diagnosing- but I do have a decent understanding of pathophysiology. (How else would we understand how drugs affect the body and work in certain diseases?) Pharmacy school is 4 years, and I certainly didn't spend every minute of class memorizing drugs. Each provider has their own strengths and there is a reason there is a health care team. I don't expect doctors, nurses, etc to know every little thing about dosing and interactions, just like they don't expect me to read an xray for them.

Working in a hospital would be so much easier if everyone (pharmacists and doctors included) would stop thinking they were better than everyone else.

BTW my "Resident" status is that of a 5-year physician residency, not a 1 or 2 year PharmD "internship"...
Also BTW...these "midlevels" often have just as much schooling as you because they actually finish their bachelors prior to their 2+yrs post baccalaureate education, vs ~2 yrs of college and 4 yrs of post baccalaureate (6 yrs any way you cut it).

There is no way I consider my residency the same as a medical residency. I also wouldn't compare it to the medical intern year.

Also, pharmacists generally go to school for 8 years now. Most schools require a bachelor's degree prior to beginning the 4 year program. 6 year schools are becoming pretty rare. Many of the 6 year schools are taking more students with bachelors degrees instead of students who have just finished the basic prerequisites.
 
Better than narcissistic not-quite-a-real-physician-ever.

It is?

My point is that you aren't in the real world. People in the real world don't particularly give two ****s about presenting some bull**** facade of prestige. They just do their jobs and do their best for the people whose care is in their hands. That just an observation, though. But I can tell you aren't a real physician yet based on how you act. You are still in that "look at me, respect me and put me on a pedestal" phase. That or you are somehow in your 30s and still this ridiculously immature. Either way, I figure it will go away in time, youngin'. And you will look back at the attitude you have today with a bit of shame. Or this is just your message forum persona and you are really an okay dude in real life. Either way...whatever. Not really my problem. People who act like you make reading message board slightly more entertaining, anyway. Now I get to see the pharmacy nerds get in a tizzy.


"Never heard from again"? Yeah, probably...don't have the time. But for all the chiros, pharms, podiatrists, NPs, and every other ancillary / midlevel provider student/resident that comes on the med school / residency forums, I figure I owe each of them a few.

So you "don't have the time", yet here you are...?

Jesus Christ...if you are going to be a troll, at least be a good one. Someone send a PM to that Taurus dude so we can show this talentless troll what a real one looks like. That dude pissed people off on here with a degree of skill like Michael Phelps in a swimming pool. That was some popcorn munching **** there, I tell you what...

From now own, I shall call thee, "Stepped on version of Taurus." I'll acronym that **** to SoVoT.

A'ight, SoVoT, hit me back with more of your medical resident angst. It do slightly entertain me. It's better than another "the economy is killing jobs" thread, anyway.
 
It is?

My point is that you aren't in the real world. People in the real world don't particularly give two ****s about presenting some bull**** facade of prestige. They just do their jobs and do their best for the people whose care is in their hands. That just an observation, though. But I can tell you aren't a real physician yet based on how you act. You are still in that "look at me, respect me and put me on a pedestal" phase. That or you are somehow in your 30s and still this ridiculously immature. Either way, I figure it will go away in time, youngin'. And you will look back at the attitude you have today with a bit of shame. Or this is just your message forum persona and you are really an okay dude in real life. Either way...whatever. Not really my problem. People who act like you make reading message board slightly more entertaining, anyway. Now I get to see the pharmacy nerds get in a tizzy.




So you "don't have the time", yet here you are...?

Jesus Christ...if you are going to be a troll, at least be a good one. Someone send a PM to that Taurus dude so we can show this talentless troll what a real one looks like. That dude pissed people off on here with a degree of skill like Michael Phelps in a swimming pool. That was some popcorn munching **** there, I tell you what...

From now own, I shall call thee, "Stepped on version of Taurus." I'll acronym that **** to SoVoT.

A'ight, SoVoT, hit me back with more of your medical resident angst. It do slightly entertain me. It's better than another "the economy is killing jobs" thread, anyway.

Yes, it is.

I don’t have time to post 1000+ posts / year as apparently you do, but I do enjoy coming on occasionally to see what’s being discussed in the various forums. And when I see some jack*** (I can use asterisks too!) pharmacist acting high & mighty because she put a freakin’ nurse in her place, followed by the obligatory “arrogant ***** doctor” comment, I’m just as obliged to reply as you are to overcompensate for your inability to hold an intelligible discussion with “Jesus Christ” bombs, Michael Phelps references and inside jokes no-one other than the 9k-plus-poster club would get.

But I enjoyed your (failed) Bond-and-Vesper-on-the-train-to-Montenegro-in-Casino-Royal-esque assessment of me. Snappy.

Here, I’ll do you!
You’re in the almost-done-with-training part of your career (I think? “post doc” pharmacist means….?) and think you’re practically a wizard, but because you’re so insecure, you have to post several comments a day on SDN (always making a mockery of someone or something, because ***-laced mockery gives the impression you're so smart you're disinterested) to convince yourself you’re as important as your family tells you you are. Wow sarcasm is fun! I’ll let you get back to your “post doc”.

Anyway, for the rest of the crowd, I didn’t come on here to “troll” and pick a fight (despite having found one incidentally) …I’ve got plenty of people to argue with in my own forums. Just keep in mind when you start slamming other professions, whether you’re in your own forum or not, people are going to occasionally come on and challenge your declarations.
 
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The point of the original post to me was the arguement. If the ANP was told by a pharmacist that propranolol should be avoided in acute amphetamine overdose, he or she should ask why and listen. Pharmacists get more training in pharmacology than most other medical professionals. As a pharmacist, I would not argue the proper diagnosis of a patient. We all have a specific scope of expertise and should respect that.
 
Yes, it is.

I don’t have time to post 1000+ posts / year as apparently you do, but I do enjoy coming on occasionally to see what’s being discussed in the various forums. And when I see some jack*** (I can use asterisks too!) pharmacist acting high & mighty because she put a freakin’ nurse in her place, followed by the obligatory “arrogant ***** doctor” comment, I’m just as obliged to reply as you are to overcompensate for your inability to hold an intelligible discussion with “Jesus Christ” bombs, Michael Phelps references and inside jokes no-one other than the 9k-plus-poster club would get.

But I enjoyed your (failed) Bond-and-Vesper-on-the-train-to-Montenegro-in-Casino-Royal-esque assessment of me. Snappy.

Here, I’ll do you!
You’re in the almost-done-with-training part of your career (I think? “post doc” pharmacist means….?) and think you’re practically a wizard, but because you’re so insecure, you have to post several comments a day on SDN (always making a mockery of someone or something, because ***-laced mockery gives the impression you're so smart you're disinterested) to convince yourself you’re as important as your family tells you you are. Wow sarcasm is fun! I’ll let you get back to your “post doc”.

Anyway, for the rest of the crowd, I didn’t come on here to “troll” and pick a fight (despite having found one incidentally) …I’ve got plenty of people to argue with in my own forums. Just keep in mind when you start slamming other professions, whether you’re in your own forum or not, people are going to occasionally come on and challenge your declarations.

Okay. I guess you can drop the "I don't have time" excuse since apparently you do. Since you are not here to troll why don't you stop and explain some of your comments.

Go ahead and explain your earlier comment. Start with this one "I do have beef with pharms trying to be primary care providers & setting up clinics to manage medications, and if that's an argument anyone really wants to enter I'd be more than happy to join the discussion. Please join the discussion and explain why you think a pharmacist is not uniquly qualified to manage a patients medications.

Oh, I pulled this little gem of a comment out of one of your posts
but for those of us that have to deal with patients on a day-by-day basis

Right I never have to deal with patients on a day to day basis...right. I spend more time talking and enter acting with a primary docs patients than they do. Hell you only see them for 15 minutes every 6 months. I have to see their sorry butts 2 or 3 times a month.
 
Perhaps it's easy for someone who spends time doing nothing but sitting behind the comfort of a plexiglass window learning the technical and biomechanical details of drugs & theoretical drug interactions to be critical of those that do the actual direct providing of care, but for those of us that have to deal with patients on a day-by-day basis--the "arrogant *****s with medical degrees"--we have a helluva lot more to deal with than reading the red book.

So let me get this straight: you're an expert on pharmacokinetics and drug properties, but haven't a clue about anatomy, physiology, and pathology associated with the disease processes those drugs are treating, yet these mid-levels and "arrogant *****" physicians make you throw your head against a plate glass window... and say what, that you could do better? That your vast experience learning drug mechanics & properties makes you better able to treat a patient?

Congratulations, you one-up'd a freakin' nurse with your vast drug knowledge. And that trumps the pharm who effed up the concentration of eye drops after a 23 yr old woman had LASIK, essentially frying & blinding the poor woman? I don't know what the hell drops she had; I'm not a pharmacist, nor am I an ophthalmologist, and I don't really care, but she's blind, and I know that for a fact.
Point being, mistakes happen in every nook & cranny of medicine, from the lowliest of physicians to the most gifted and talented pharmacist.

BTW my "Resident" status is that of a 5-year physician residency, not a 1 or 2 year PharmD "internship"...
Also BTW...these "midlevels" often have just as much schooling as you because they actually finish their bachelors prior to their 2rs post baccalaureate education, vs ~2 yrs of college and 4 yrs of post baccalaureate (6 yrs any way you cut it).


Here is an example of several orders I had to get d'ced or changed just last week, electronically entered or handwritten by MDs:

1. Hydralazine 50 mg PO Q6H STARTED on a patient who was already on a norepinephrine and vasopressin drip (ICU setting obviously)

2. Kayexalate that was about to be administered to a patient with a potassium of 2.8 (ICU setting)

3. Novolog insulin 3 mL TID. That's milliliters, not units (one novolog pen is 3 mL = 300 units of insulin aspart rapid correction dose) (community setting)

4. Toprol XL 200 mg TID (community setting)

These are very simple, glaring, and potentially fatal prescription mistakes that I can't even gloat about or use it to "glorify" my profession, because they defy basic common sense.

I also can't figure out why there are so many individuals who do not understand the difference in dosing between metoprolol succinate and metoprolol tartrate. I'm not trying to be a jerk, it simply defies that logic the amount of times I see Lopressor 25 mg QD.


You see, learning pharmacy is like learning a foreign language. You can try to go through the verbage in your head and translate english to spanish, but it all comes out terribly because you haven't learned to speak the language fluently without having to actually think about what your saying. To be fluent, you would just know it and do it. The same is true with pharmacy. When your processing, entering, or dispensing several hundred prescriptions a day, everything becomes second nature, and you simply know when something is right or something is wrong based on either the nature of the prescription or the current clinical state of the patient. That is the pharmacist's role and the world of health care would be in peril without it. So I'm gonna go ahead and keep reading my RedBook behind my plexiglass window and quietly fight the good fight, ok?
 
Please keep the discussion civil. Thanks.

But he got the last bunch of insults in. Not fair!!!!

*stomps off, mad*

That **** ain't fair. I mean, granted, as usual I have nothing to really add to the discussion, I'll grant you that...but why do you always have to throw the "act like adults" flag into the fray on me right after the other dude always posts? Cut the foreign troll off half argument next irrational and meaningless rant fest rather than me.

*retires to cave*
 
First lets take out this statement "pharms trying to be primary care providers." Despite all the students with thier heads filled with BS from the ivory tower of acedemia most experienced practicing Pharmacists have no desire to be a primary care provider.

To the last part of your statement I have to ask why? Who better to manage a patients medications than a Pharmacist? It would be nice if Primary Care Docs would do it but it isn't happening. There is not much being managed when you have to carry 5000 active patients and in order to make any money you have to double book 15 minute appointments from open to close 5 days a week. There is not much time to manage anything during a 15 minute appointment every 6 months.

Most Primary Care Docs have there hands full with all that is involved with the physical exam, diagnosis of any problems and the selection of appropriate drug therapy. Do you need to be an MD to adjust someones medications per a written protocol? There are many ways a Pharmacist can help. Considering 90% of all Doctors visits end up with a prescription being written for something we are all ready a big part of what you do.

The best model I have seen is the VA's system. If the civillain world adopted it there would be a huge cost saving as well as improvement in outcomes.
Imagine the time you would have to spend with your patients if you had a good competent Pharmacist helping you manage medication therapy! Again do you need to be an MD to read lab values and adjust medications based on a predesigned protocol that you have written and approved?

Oh wait there I go again! My head in the clouds wanting to be a primary care docotr. Shame on me!!! I know there is no way I could look at lab values and adjust medications. Gosh sir you started your cholesterol medication 3 months ago and have had only a slight imporovement. Your LFT test are fine and you have no complaints of muscle pain or weekness. You have changed you diet and started an exercise program. I see you have lost five pounds good for you. Hmmmm what should we do? Gosh, I am in over my head we better kick this up to the MD. I am only a Pharmacist after all and all I know how to do is count the cholesterol medication.

u are awesome, and your posts always bring out a good laugh. I would seriously consider driving up I-45 and buy you a beer
 
My view on midlevels, just from my experience at the hospital yesterday for my ACL reconstruction has been a particularly negative one.

I was asking the nurses about what method the doctor was going to use for the graft, (patellar tendon, hamstring, allograft) and they looked at me like I had 3 heads and told me to ask the surgeon when I see him. Seriously, how the **** is it okay that I know more about the procedure than the nurses?

Also, post-op, I was having additional pain since the femoral block didn't work too well. Nurse said she was giving me Demerol, I didn't want it because of potential seizure risk and asked if she could ask the doctor for fentanyl or morphine instead, and again I get looked at like I have 3 heads.
 
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My view on midlevels, just from my experience at the hospital yesterday for my ACL reconstruction has been a particularly negative one.

I was asking the nurses about what method the doctor was going to use for the graft, (patellar tendon, hamstring, allograft) and they looked at me like I had 3 heads and told me to ask the surgeon when I see him. Seriously, how the **** is it okay that I know more about the procedure than the nurses?

Also, post-op, I was having additional pain since the femoral block didn't work too well. Nurse said she was giving me Demerol, I didn't want it because of potential seizure risk and asked if she could ask the doctor for fentanyl or morphine instead, and again I get looked at like I have 3 heads.

An RN (or LPN or LVN or whatever) on the floor is not a Midlevel. And why WOULD your floor nurse know about advanced surgical techniques? She was right to tell you to ask the doctor.

I'm really suprised your facility is still using Demerol. It's off the formulary at the places I've rotated lately and at my primary place of employment.
 
He had the time to post this gem (in the DO forum, hmmm):
Really? Because understanding pharmacokinetics places pharmacists in a unique position to consequently understand disease processes? It really is quite disconcerting: the push for pharmacists to bill for clinical encounters, basically fulfilling the role of primary care physicians who just manage drugs but have no appreciable understanding of the disease processes those drugs are used to treat.

It's only going to get worse, gang, so buckle up.

Which was followed by this. Where is the facepalm gif?

I still don't know what a pharmacist does!

Why do they go to school? Besides to make sure drug addicts don't have access to all those pain pills.........?
 
schrute - Again, I was with you about not dogging people because we all make mistakes, the OP of this thread is not representative of how most pharmacists feel and I'm embarrassed they posted that. Same with TAP - but I take most of what TAP says with a grain of salt...

But I still haven't heard you explain how pharmacists are trying to become PCPs. Do you know how MTM works? Honest question.
 
Its kinda funny to hear the opinions of other medical professions....

Some look at us as the people that move pills from big bottles to little bottles and then proceed to complain that we serve no real purpose.

And now since this thread started there are people that think we are stealing jobs from PCPs and they are complaining about that...

What exactly do people want us to do?

I also don't get why this dude is complaining about filling in the PCP coverage gap. By the sounds of it you aren't going into family medicine with a 5-year residency, why are you being a hypocrite? If family care is so high on your list, why aren't you one? Why give someone who can only count by fives and pick out imaginary drug interactions a chance to care for those patients, like you are crusading to do? Or did you give in to greed because we know the paycheck isn't found in family practice?

Its also embarassing that you don't recognize the good that we bring to patient care. I can't believe a resident would not appreciate having a pharmacist around. This saddens me because either you don't have one or don't have a good one OR you have an ego problem. Both of which are unfortunate for your patient's sake. Either that or you are really a pre-med who still thinks theres a difference between an MD and a DO.
 
Either that or you are really a pre-med who still thinks theres a difference between an MD and a DO.

Oh no you di'int. :meanie:

Please don't flame the fire!

I think no matter how many people try to invade our forum and tell us about their perceptions, we still know what a pharmacist can and can't do, and we know what our role is in healthcare, and we know that it's growing.

As mentioned above, it's kind of insulting that someone would come in here and, rather than solely defend a position, seek to insult our profession.

However, look at the inflammatory nature of the OP. They cared enough to give us this great thread without commenting in it since.

:beat:
 
Oh no you di'int. :meanie:

Please don't flame the fire!

I think no matter how many people try to invade our forum and tell us about their perceptions, we still know what a pharmacist can and can't do, and we know what our role is in healthcare, and we know that it's growing.

As mentioned above, it's kind of insulting that someone would come in here and, rather than solely defend a position, seek to insult our profession.

However, look at the inflammatory nature of the OP. They cared enough to give us this great thread without commenting in it since.

:beat:
This is not the pre-pharmacy forum. My post is not out of line and don't single me out and treat me like I am an idiot.
 
As you guys probably know, I'm one of the main agitators regarding midlevel scope of practice creep on SDN.

Pharmacists, in a clinical setting (ICUs, floors) can be worth their weight in gold. I think coordination with a family practice doc in the outpatient setting would increase efficiency and patient safety, but how are we gonna pay for it?

To the OP: what did you expect about the BB and meth head? It was a noctor "treating" the patient. Noctors have the least amount of education of any "medical professional" (out of physicians, PA, pharmacist) and usually the biggest clinical egos.
 
This is not the pre-pharmacy forum. My post is not out of line and don't single me out and treat me like I am an idiot.

Dude, I was calling out the OP for trolling. Have they posted at all since enlightening us with their original post?

I didn't say your post was out of line, I said it was keeping an argument going that we've already seen a million times before. If you really want to hash out another Pharmacy vs MD vs DO vs PA, then this thread will go the same place all the others did: nowhere.
 
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