PhD and specialty training

[clarence90]

Hi guys,

I am currently in my final year of medical school. I am very interested in becoming a clinician scientist and would like to continue with specialty training and a PhD.

I know that most doctors go for specialty training and then a PhD. May I ask if there is an advantage in going for a PhD before going for specialty training if you know what area you want to research in? I'm thinking that doing a PhD earlier will help to start up my research career early and be able to continue doing good research post-PhD.

I also know of doctors who go for specialty training and then do a concurrent part time PhD. Therefore, I'll be happy to hear your opinions on what route you have taken or what route you think would be beneficial to becoming a clinician scientist.

Thank you so much for your time!!

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[debateg]

Have you considered forgoing the PhD altogether and doing research during fellowship or residency? It's not clear to me what major advantage a PhD has for you. Perhaps you can clarify what you think it will benefit.

 

[gutonc]

Hi guys,

I am currently in my final year of medical school. I am very interested in becoming a clinician scientist and would like to continue with specialty training and a PhD.

I know that most doctors go for specialty training and then a PhD. May I ask if there is an advantage in going for a PhD before going for specialty training if you know what area you want to research in? I'm thinking that doing a PhD earlier will help to start up my research career early and be able to continue doing good research post-PhD.

I also know of doctors who go for specialty training and then do a concurrent part time PhD. Therefore, I'll be happy to hear your opinions on what route you have taken or what route you think would be beneficial to becoming a clinician scientist.

Thank you so much for your time!!

There are a million reasons why this would be a bad idea. But first, I want to reinforce the point debateg brought up. Why a PhD? You can become a clinician scientist without it. There are plenty of good reasons to want a PhD, but "to be a clinician scientist" is not necessarily one of them, especially at your stage. If you'd had this revelation 3 years earlier it would be a different story.

If you're dead set on a PhD, consider a research pathway residency/fellowship (Google it). Many of them will allow you to do an extra couple of years and get a PhD.

As to why your approach of MD --> PhD --> Residency is a bad idea, the #1 reason is that residencies are in business to train clinicians, period. If a clinician-scientist happens to sneak through, that's OK...as long as they're good clinicians first. The further you are from med school, the worse of a clinician you're going to be and the less likely you are to get a good residency spot. Even if you took 5-6 years off to be the Chief Scientific Officer of Novartis (vs spending that time as somebody's lab slave), you'd still be in worse shape Match-wise than you will be during the normal match time line.

Now...having said all that, if you're an IMG, things change a little bit. It's not uncommon for real IMGs to come to the US, complete a PhD and then match. But it's also not necessary. And if you've looked at the match stats lately, things are getting ugly out there and will only get worse as more US grads come online in the next 2-5 years.

 

[clarence90]

There are a million reasons why this would be a bad idea. But first, I want to reinforce the point debateg brought up. Why a PhD? You can become a clinician scientist without it. There are plenty of good reasons to want a PhD, but "to be a clinician scientist" is not necessarily one of them, especially at your stage. If you'd had this revelation 3 years earlier it would be a different story.

If you're dead set on a PhD, consider a research pathway residency/fellowship (Google it). Many of them will allow you to do an extra couple of years and get a PhD.

As to why your approach of MD --> PhD --> Residency is a bad idea, the #1 reason is that residencies are in business to train clinicians, period. If a clinician-scientist happens to sneak through, that's OK...as long as they're good clinicians first. The further you are from med school, the worse of a clinician you're going to be and the less likely you are to get a good residency spot. Even if you took 5-6 years off to be the Chief Scientific Officer of Novartis (vs spending that time as somebody's lab slave), you'd still be in worse shape Match-wise than you will be during the normal match time line.

Now...having said all that, if you're an IMG, things change a little bit. It's not uncommon for real IMGs to come to the US, complete a PhD and then match. But it's also not necessary. And if you've looked at the match stats lately, things are getting ugly out there and will only get worse as more US grads come online in the next 2-5 years.

I've thought about the research fellowship after residency as well.

What I'm mainly thinking is whether doing a PhD early on in your career is more beneficial. I'm assuming that while doing a PhD, you will learn how to do good research and thus, during your residency, you will be doing good research. But if you start residency first and then a PhD, you start doing "good" research later on.

Anyone has any experience in either pathways?

 

[K31]

What I'm mainly thinking is whether doing a PhD early on in your career is more beneficial. I'm assuming that while doing a PhD, you will learn how to do good research and thus, during your residency, you will be doing good research. But if you start residency first and then a PhD, you start doing "good" research later on.

Probably. Between MS2 and MS3 is probably the best, primarily because you don't have to interrupt your clinical training (and that's also the way you're most likely to get your medical education paid for). It's also the time you're expected to take time for a PhD, so it's not held against us (at least not too much).

If you do want to do specialty training, your focus needs to be on getting into a good residency. Taking time off immediately after residency will impede that goal.However, there are many faculty who get into basic research later (usually through research-intensive fellowships) and do very well, and it's a distinct minority who do a PhD later--doesn't seem to hold them back. The difference if they've established themselves as clinicians and then can develop their research skills. Don't interrupt your training right at the time you need to be concentrating on being an adept clinician.