PhD/MD and other questions

[Suaveness]

Question 1:

If I get into a PhD program, can I apply in the first year to a MDPhD program and get in? I know it works the other way around but I would like to know if it works this way.


Alright, I have a couple of really important questions (regarding the PhD program), I hope someone can help me with.

1. Do you think that if I asked, they could extend the timeline given to me to accept? They gave me until Apr 15, but I need more time than that.

2. The bigger question...say like they do not give me that time. Is it ok to go ahead and accept the PhD program, but if I get into the program that I really want to within the next 1-2 months, to tell the PhD pgrm that I want to go in another direction?

This is VERY important!

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[Neuronix]

Question 1:

If I get into a PhD program, can I apply in the first year to a MDPhD program and get in? I know it works the other way around but I would like to know if it works this way.

This is highly school dependent, but the answer usually ranges from never to very rarely. You need to ask the MD/PhD program at your school of interest ASAP and find out. My general advice is to always assume that you CANNOT switch to MD/PhD or MD once you have joined your PhD program. There are exceptions to this rule, but I've seen alot of heartbroken people who joined grad school simply because they couldn't figure out what they wanted to do with their lives only to then get rejected from what they think they want to do later. In fact, if you're not sure about grad school, you may not want to start grad school.

1. Do you think that if I asked, they could extend the timeline given to me to accept? They gave me until Apr 15, but I need more time than that.

Why do you need more time? You haven't heard from other programs? You can tell them you accept and jump ship later. That's how it works for medical school admissions anyways. I can't see how it would be any different for graduate school. Just because you "accept" doesn't mean you're really locked in until you matriculate. If another school takes you off its waitlist or whatever, you can still take that offer.

2. The bigger question...say like they do not give me that time. Is it ok to go ahead and accept the PhD program, but if I get into the program that I really want to within the next 1-2 months, to tell the PhD pgrm that I want to go in another direction?

Why not? First, no PhD program wants to "trap" a student into a program they don't want be doing. The dropout rate from PhD programs is high enough as it is. They don't want you there if you don't want to be there. Second, what are they going to do to you if you withdraw? Any negative feelings (if there are any) will be temporary. It's not like you're signing away your life to join grad school. It's not the military

 

[Circumflex]

I know of 2 people who were in the middle of grad school when they decided to apply to med school. Both schools told them that they could not enter med school if they were currently in a degree-seeking program, unless it was the last year so that they would have the degree by the time med school started. I think this is the general attitude, but there may be exceptions.

As for your other questions, you can accept and drop out. They'll just offer the position to someone else if they have a wait-list.

 

[QofQuimica]

I know of 2 people who were in the middle of grad school when they decided to apply to med school. Both schools told them that they could not enter med school if they were currently in a degree-seeking program, unless it was the last year so that they would have the degree by the time med school started. I think this is the general attitude, but there may be exceptions.

This was my experience precisely. OP, the reason why I am doing separate degrees (PhD followed by MD) is because I was not successful at doing what you're proposing.

 

[Suaveness]

Ok, so I can go ahead and accept, and if I get something better later (or decide not to go), I can just tell them I'm not interested anymore.


Next question:

Say like I decide to take the PhD option. Is it possible to switch that to a Masters after one year? So, do one year of the PhD, then switch to MS and do one more year to finish?

 

[AtreyuRocks]

Ok, so I can go ahead and accept, and if I get something better later (or decide not to go), I can just tell them I'm not interested anymore.


Next question:

Say like I decide to take the PhD option. Is it possible to switch that to a Masters after one year? So, do one year of the PhD, then switch to MS and do one more year to finish?

yea, you can take the MS instead of the PhD (aka not finishing your PhD). And others can correct me if I am wrong, but this route would be entirely dependent on your institution and PI.

Back to your PhD to MD/PhD thing? Basically you an apply to MD while you finish up the last year of your PhD... that's about it. You can definitely cop out of the PhD (aka quit), but I doubt that will go over well with adcoms =). Taking the MS would be the better option here, BUT you should decide this before you apply to MD because most schools will require you complete the degree granting program in which you are enrolled before matriculating (they can rescind your accept otherwise).

 

[AtreyuRocks]

This was my experience precisely. OP, the reason why I am doing separate degrees (PhD followed by MD) is because I was not successful at doing what you're proposing.

Did you apply in your last year of your PhD? A colleague of mine was also unsuccessful going PhD-->MD/PhD as well. She is currently waiting for an accept from her homestate med school as she gets ready to defend this June...

 

[Circumflex]

Ok, so I can go ahead and accept, and if I get something better later (or decide not to go), I can just tell them I'm not interested anymore.


Next question:

Say like I decide to take the PhD option. Is it possible to switch that to a Masters after one year? So, do one year of the PhD, then switch to MS and do one more year to finish?

If you start the program as a PhD student and then decide to switch to a MS, be sure to be as upfront as you can with your advisor. In fact, you may want to pick a lab where the PI is cool with this. The reason is that you will most likely want or need a letter of rec. from your thesis advisor, so you don't want to dump on them and make them angry. Just be honest about everything.

 

[AtreyuRocks]

If you start the program as a PhD student and then decide to switch to a MS, be sure to be as upfront as you can with your advisor. In fact, you may want to pick a lab where the PI is cool with this. The reason is that you will most likely want or need a letter of rec. from your thesis advisor, so you don't want to dump on them and make them angry. Just be honest about everything.

I just thought of something. Why not just do an MS if you really want to go to MD (soon)? I agree with being upfront... but if it's all planned out like that then just do MS in the first place? Or did you not want to pay? I'm actually getting confused now!

 

[Neuronix]

Say like I decide to take the PhD option. Is it possible to switch that to a Masters after one year? So, do one year of the PhD, then switch to MS and do one more year to finish?

As others have said, you'll need to let them know ASAP that what you're really interested in is a master's. The one thing they can hold over your head is letters of recommendation. Medical schools will be looking for letters from whatever program you attend. If you start as a PhD student and then switch off to a Master's, the negative feelings that may be generated could prevent your PI and/or program from writing you a favorable letter. They may also put it in your letter that you dropped out of their PhD program and took a MS. This will look very bad to medical schools if you apply.

If the school basically says "This guy was a great master's student" and doesn't mention anything about the PhD, nobody will know otherwise.

 

[QofQuimica]

Did you apply in your last year of your PhD? A colleague of mine was also unsuccessful going PhD-->MD/PhD as well. She is currently waiting for an accept from her homestate med school as she gets ready to defend this June...

The first time, no. The MD/PhD program interviewed me, but the admissions people basically told me to finish my PhD and then they would accept me to the MD-only program. The most recent time, yes. I was accepted to medical school from grad school during my last year of grad school. Even then, I made d*** sure to emphasize to my PI how important it was for him to write in my LOR that he definitely expected me to graduate before my med school matriculation date.

I agree completely with the posters who advocate being up front with your advisor. If you go in there knowing you won't finish a PhD, don't misrepresent yourself. These lies have a way of coming back to bite you in the a** later.

 

[Suaveness]

I just thought of something. Why not just do an MS if you really want to go to MD (soon)? I agree with being upfront... but if it's all planned out like that then just do MS in the first place? Or did you not want to pay? I'm actually getting confused now!

Ideally, this would be nice. Trust me, if it goes to plan (2nd plan), then just a MS would be best. I don't like the roundabout way of PhD to MS. The reason for the PhD is as you say, money. The PhD prgm has offered me tuition and a large stipend, which I don't know if the MS prgm will do. The MS can offer that, but I don't know if I'll get it (because I haven't heard from them...I feel confident that I'll get in).

A plan is to apply for MS during the 1st year of my PhD, and then do the MS (aka finish) the 2nd year, the year that I apply for Medical School.

Honestly, this roundaboutness feels icky. I was suggested this method, and I'm trying to gauge if this is possible.

 

[Neuronix]

Ideally, this would be nice. Trust me, if it goes to plan (2nd plan), then just a MS would be best. I don't like the roundabout way of PhD to MS.

A plan is to apply for MS during the 1st year of my PhD, and then do the MS (aka finish) the 2nd year, the year that I apply for Medical School.

Honestly, this roundaboutness feels icky. I was suggested this method, and I'm trying to gauge if this is possible.

Danger!!!! This is exactly what I was trying to warn about in earlier posts. It is possible it could work out, but you're setting yourself up for serious problems. If money is your major concern, why not find a job as a lab tech while you apply for medical school?

 

[QofQuimica]

Danger!!!! This is exactly what I was trying to warn about in earlier posts. It is possible it could work out, but you're setting yourself up for serious problems. If money is your major concern, why not find a job as a lab tech while you apply for medical school?

I agree completely. OP, don't do what you're contemplating. The research world is very small, and hell hath no fury like a PI scorned.

 

[AtreyuRocks]

Danger!!!! This is exactly what I was trying to warn about in earlier posts. It is possible it could work out, but you're setting yourself up for serious problems. If money is your major concern, why not find a job as a lab tech while you apply for medical school?

I agree completely. OP, don't do what you're contemplating. The research world is very small, and hell hath no fury like a PI scorned.

Very good advice/points made here. Getting a lab tech position instead of going to grad school could be your best bet for a few reasons: 1) your stipend as a PhD candidate isn't that great, 2) lab techs can make just as much or more than a PhD candidate (assuming you have experience), and 3) if you don't finish your PhD program (w/ or w/o MS) you might end up having to pay $$ back to the institution (different case, but this occurs in MD/PhD programs for sure.. many schools make you pay tuition back if you don't complete your PhD).

Ultimately, if you aren't getting the degree intended, then you might as well just go with a lab tech position. That's what I did. Fulltime lab tech (being paid not-so-well comparatively, but still more than a PhD stipend) for two years, then applied MD/PhD. IMO, the wealth of experience helped me get in.

 

[Suaveness]

So you guys think then that the whole PhD to MS thing just is not worth the risk?

If I did just a MS, would that be ok? What does a lab tech do?

Also, what other options would you guys suggest before applying for MD? I'm not sure what else I could do other than MS or a lab tech

 

[Circumflex]

So you guys think then that the whole PhD to MS thing just is not worth the risk?

If I did just a MS, would that be ok? What does a lab tech do?

Also, what other options would you guys suggest before applying for MD? I'm not sure what else I could do other than MS or a lab tech

A lab tech usually does experiments for a PI. It all depends on the lab, but you could be responsible for animals, ordering supplies, doing cell culture, doing PCR, or anything else that needs to be done. Many researchers like hiring people applying to med school because they know that they are motivated. If you work for the right PI, you may be able to get your name on a paper (although most PIs don't put technicians' names on papers).

Getting a MS is a minimum of 2 years. A buddy of mine was able to get a MPH in 1 year. He started in the summer and was done the next May. He loaded up on a bunch of courses including some independent studies doing research. He got into med school the next year, so he only sat out 1 year.

 

[Suaveness]

Danger!!!! This is exactly what I was trying to warn about in earlier posts. It is possible it could work out, but you're setting yourself up for serious problems. If money is your major concern, why not find a job as a lab tech while you apply for medical school?

Money isn't really a terrible concern, but I figured that since the MS prgm was less likely to give money, I could do the prgm that did give me money for the first year then transfer. But this is just too risky?

 

[Neuronix]

Money isn't really a terrible concern, but I figured that since the MS prgm was less likely to give money, I could do the prgm that did give me money for the first year then transfer. But this is just too risky?

Think about why they're giving you money... It's to spend 5+ years in their program being slave labor for a PI. If you break that by switching to a MS or dropping out, they're going to be unhappy with you. Like I said, it isn't the military, they aren't going to ruin your life. But, what they can do is withhold LORs or write you bad LORs. That will really impede you from getting into medical school later on.

So yes, I think it is too risky and would strongly advise against it. I agree with what most of Circumflex said otherwise, except I wouldn't say that most PIs don't put technicians names on papers. In the labs I've been in, it's been the opposite: techs almost always get their names on papers if they worked on that project.

 

[QofQuimica]

Money isn't really a terrible concern, but I figured that since the MS prgm was less likely to give money, I could do the prgm that did give me money for the first year then transfer. But this is just too risky?

You can still do the MS if you want. But just be up front about your intentions. Don't lie to a PI to get them to pay you for a couple of years off their grant when you know from the getgo that you don't plan to stick around to finish your PhD. That's unethical and dishonest, and THAT is what will piss your PI off. On the other hand, if you tell him or her from the beginning that you are there for an MS, no one will fault you for not finishing a PhD. If you don't need the money anyway, then it makes even less sense to lie to the PI. Just tell them you want to get the MS. There's nothing wrong with getting an MS. If the money did matter, I agree that being a tech is a good way to go. I spent some time working as a tech also.

 

[AtreyuRocks]

So you guys think then that the whole PhD to MS thing just is not worth the risk?

If I did just a MS, would that be ok? What does a lab tech do?

Also, what other options would you guys suggest before applying for MD? I'm not sure what else I could do other than MS or a lab tech

you don't have any lab experience? AH! anyways, it is still a good option for you. it is true that lab techs get put on papers all the time, but this statement is also institution dependent. if you are looking for a lab that publishes techs you can always ask around. my UG institution is particularly known for publishing UGs (and techs).

Lab tech positions and the duties/responsibilities included vary depending on your level I, II, III (increasing levels for assortment and complexity of duties, and pay too). Although it is unlikely you will get lots of super important duties right away, if you prove yourself-- it is very easy to work up the ladder.

Regardless of your experience, being a lab tech is a great way to get involved with research. It's better than having 0 res exp... especially if you want to apply to MD/PhD programs. Even if you have stellar scores it's sorta tough to sway adcoms into believing your passion for science and that you have an idea of what to do with it.

I am published as a lab tech as are several of my friends, so I'm speaking from first hand experience about publications.

I think we (neurnx, QofQ, Cflex, and myself) made the choice for you. Your are applying for lab tech jobs!!

 

[Suaveness]

Haha, I actually have quite a bit of lab experience. I'm not sure how much more I want, though, because I wonder if MD schools will think I'm more interested in research than medicine. But per your advice, I think I'll stay away from the PhD-MS switching.

 

[AtreyuRocks]

Haha, I actually have quite a bit of lab experience. I'm not sure how much more I want, though, because I wonder if MD schools will think I'm more interested in research than medicine. But per your advice, I think I'll stay away from the PhD-MS switching.

oops, sorry. i just assumed so, because you asked about lab techs and publishing hehe. it could be a concern of the adcoms regarding your desire for science over medicine, but if you spin your essays and EC's correctly, thinking like a scientist can be very important in medicine-- a reason why MD/PhDs and related programs exist.

if you are still concerned about not appearing more interested in science than medicine, you could try dabbling in clinical research. this is very different than bench research, and is often done by MD's w/o PhDs. Maybe a lab tech job in this area is what you are looking for? It could get you another clinical letter, lab experience, and patient contact

EDIT: also, I have had many friends with extensive research including pubs who were accepted into MD programs, and good ones at that. so, i personally don't think it will ruin your chances so long as you have a fair amount of clinical experience

 

[QofQuimica]

EDIT: also, I have had many friends with extensive research including pubs who were accepted into MD programs, and good ones at that. so, i personally don't think it will ruin your chances so long as you have a fair amount of clinical experiences

It won't. There are several of us who've gotten accepted after doing our entire PhDs. If "too much" research hurt your chances, that wouldn't have been possible. That being said, it is ESSENTIAL to have clinical experiences on your resume if you want to be a successful MD-only applicant. Volunteering experience is a good idea too.

 

[AtreyuRocks]

It won't. There are several of us who've gotten accepted after doing our entire PhDs. If "too much" research hurt your chances, that wouldn't have been possible. That being said, it is ESSENTIAL to have clinical experiences on your resume if you want to be a successful MD-only applicant. Volunteering experience is a good idea too.

good point.

I am a little confused as to why the OP is concerned about 'too much' research when the original post was regarding entering a PhD program and transferring to an MD/PhD program?

 

[QofQuimica]

good point.

I am a little confused as to why the OP is concerned about 'too much' research when the original post was regarding entering a PhD program and transferring to an MD/PhD program?

Well, if he's looking at MD-only programs, he does need to have a better balance of ECs. Research is valued, but not as heavily as it is by MD/PhD programs. You can apply to just about any MD-only program in the country without doing a single day of research if you have other strong ECs. But you pretty much have to do some kind of clinical EC so that you can show interest in medicine, and most MD-only schools want to see community service too. I managed to do all three at once by volunteering on a clinical research project.

 

[AtreyuRocks]

Well, if he's looking at MD-only programs, he does need to have a better balance of ECs. Research is valued, but not as heavily as it is by MD/PhD programs. You can apply to just about any MD-only program in the country without doing a single day of research if you have other strong ECs. But you pretty much have to do some kind of clinical EC so that you can show interest in medicine, and most MD-only schools want to see community service too. I managed to do all three at once by volunteering on a clinical research project.

I agree with balance and leveling it out with proper volunteer and clinical experience... I guess I am just a big fan of representing who you truly are; and if the OP is interested enough to entertain becoming a PhD candidate, that should be expressed in the app, imo.

 

[Suaveness]

It won't. There are several of us who've gotten accepted after doing our entire PhDs. If "too much" research hurt your chances, that wouldn't have been possible. That being said, it is ESSENTIAL to have clinical experiences on your resume if you want to be a successful MD-only applicant. Volunteering experience is a good idea too.

I have volunteered in an ER for about 2 years now, and have shadowed for about 20 hrs. Not to mention numerous research opportunities. So either route I take should be ok for the following year or two.

 

[Suaveness]

You can still do the MS if you want. But just be up front about your intentions. Don't lie to a PI to get them to pay you for a couple of years off their grant when you know from the getgo that you don't plan to stick around to finish your PhD. That's unethical and dishonest, and THAT is what will piss your PI off. On the other hand, if you tell him or her from the beginning that you are there for an MS, no one will fault you for not finishing a PhD. If you don't need the money anyway, then it makes even less sense to lie to the PI. Just tell them you want to get the MS. There's nothing wrong with getting an MS. If the money did matter, I agree that being a tech is a good way to go. I spent some time working as a tech also.

What would they think if the first thing I told them was that I wanted to do a MS rather than a PhD if I just enrolled in it? It would seem, to me, that MS was my intention all along

 

[QofQuimica]

What would they think if the first thing I told them was that I wanted to do a MS rather than a PhD if I just enrolled in it? It would seem, to me, that MS was my intention all along

Right. If you enroll as an MS student, no one will be upset about you not finishing a PhD. We're just trying to tell you that if you know right now before you even begin that you only want the MS, you should enroll as an MS student. Your situation is different than if you started out planning to get the PhD and then dropped out for some reason. PIs understand that things happen in people's lives sometimes. Actually, I left my own first PhD program with an MS for personal reasons. But I didn't start out PLANNING to only get the MS; my intention was to get my PhD. And in the end, when I had my own affairs settled, I went back and did it.

 

[QofQuimica]

I agree with balance and leveling it out with proper volunteer and clinical experience... I guess I am just a big fan of representing who you truly are; and if the OP is interested enough to entertain becoming a PhD candidate, that should be expressed in the app, imo.

That's not a good idea if he's applying to MD-only programs. He'll get to his interviews, and people will ask him why he didn't apply MD/PhD or PhD-only if he wants to do research so badly. That *is* one pitfall of having a research-heavy record; you're going to have to defend your choice to go MD-only at interviews. Even *I* had an interviewer ask me why I didn't apply MD/PhD at one school. I had just finished telling her about my dissertation work, and I was just at a loss for words. (You have to understand, I am not the kind of person who is generally left speechless. ) After a few seconds pause, I finally told the interviewer that I figured one PhD was enough to last me a lifetime, and that it had been hard enough earning one. She laughed and agreed; she was a PhD too. And I wound up getting into that school.

 

[Suaveness]

Right. If you enroll as an MS student, no one will be upset about you not finishing a PhD. We're just trying to tell you that if you know right now before you even begin that you only want the MS, you should enroll as an MS student. Your situation is different than if you started out planning to get the PhD and then dropped out for some reason. PIs understand that things happen in people's lives sometimes. Actually, I left my own first PhD program with an MS for personal reasons. But I didn't start out PLANNING to only get the MS; my intention was to get my PhD. And in the end, when I had my own affairs settled, I went back and did it.

In the bolded part, you mean if I have started a PhD?

The thing is, MS is definitely the option, not PhD. But there's no guarantee of MS giving me money, which is the only reason I'd consider PhD (that and MDPhD, which I can't do from a PhD as I've been told).

 

[AtmaWeapon]

No he is saying just go with the MS.

Basically as people have said, it boils down to if you go to PhD "just for the money," you are cheating whoever's funding you and they'll be very unhappy when you bail on them.

That means they could give you ****ty letters/phone calls, blacklisted, blahblahblah just potentially bad things in general.

 

[QofQuimica]

No he is saying just go with the MS.

Basically as people have said, it boils down to if you go to PhD "just for the money," you are cheating whoever's funding you and they'll be very unhappy when you bail on them.

That means they could give you ****ty letters/phone calls, blacklisted, blahblahblah just potentially bad things in general.

Exactly what I meant, except that, ahem, I'm a SHE.

 

[AtmaWeapon]

lol my bad QofQ, haven't been around here long enough

and on another note if you do decide you'll go PhD and settle for a terminal masters, it MUST raise red flags for the MDPhD admissions. Terminal masters just screams "I'm a quitter," and with a high dropout rate in MDPhD I'm not sure who would take you after seeing that regardless of if your PI is "okay" with you settling for a MS or not.