PhD Student to Medical School

[buttahfubar]

I’m starting a PhD program this Fall knowing that I will reapply to medical school near completion. I plan on doing hospital volunteering during my PhD. I actually completed an SMP and did fairly well but was still rejected. For many reasons, I want to complete my PhD before I apply again. What other clinical experiences and ECs should I look into as a non traditional reapplicant? I’m aware of two accelerated MD programs for PhD holders but I don’t know if I’m competitive.

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[Goro]

The PhD isn't going to make you a more attractive candidate.

What do think that your negatives wete despite reinvention in the SMP? What was yourGPA in the SMP? Did a medical school host the SMP???

 

[buttahfubar]

The PhD isn't going to make you a more attractive candidate.

What do think that your negatives wete despite reinvention in the SMP? What was yourGPA in the SMP? Did a medical school host the SMP???

I’m doing the PhD as a more fleshed out Plan B in the event I’m not accepted to medical school. By doing the SMP, I really thought my chances for acceptance would be more certain. In failing during this cycle, I see the importance of having a concrete Plan B.

My MCAT wasn’t stellar (a 508) and I could use more clinical experience. My SMP performance was pretty decent (3.7-3.8 in a program which mimicked basic science courses in med school). The SMP was hosted by an allopathic school but they gave me no feedback when I inquired. I had a minor IA in undergrad but no ADCOM has brought it up as a red flag. The undergrad disciplinary office let me know that they don’t share records and the IA is not notated on my transcript. In trying to be above board, I reported my IA but an advisor told me I should have just left it off my application? In addition, during my second cycle, I accidentally said no concerning my IA that I reported in my first cycle and one ADCOM said it appeared as thought I was being deceitful. I inadvertently forgot to select “yes” because I was working on my IA essay response.

During the most recent cycle I got two interviews which both resulted in rejections with no waitlists. I know a PhD is a long detour but I’m wary of taking a gap year because I could easily be rejected again and I have no letter writers at present.

 

[Just D.O. it]

Did you include DO in your applications? The fact that you got interviews says to me that you don't really need a 4-5 year detour. PhD is a lot of time to invest in a plan B when your application seems to potentially be viable.

I reported my IA but an advisor told me I should have just left it off my application?

What advisor? The one at your undergrad? If he is saying you don't need to report it, maybe it wasn't an IA.

IA or Institutional Action isn't just when you get caught doing something questionable, AFAIK it is when actual documented, formal discipline is meted out to you.

I have no letter writers at present.

Ugh. My heart sinks every time I hear this from a reapplicant. It's why I shill for interfolio in every conversation about rec letters I take part in.

Is there any chance you could email or even visit the office of your past letter writers and ask very nicely and pleadingly if they would send their letters to interfolio? Set up an interfolio account. Trust me. It is worth not having to seek out your letter writers every single year if this becomes a multi-cycle ordeal.

I'd advise making this attempt sooner rather than later. The vague memories of educators with 500 students a semester can fade quickly.

 

[buttahfubar]

Did you include DO in your applications? The fact that you got interviews says to me that you don't really need a 4-5 year detour. PhD is a lot of time to invest in a plan B when your application seems to potentially be viable.



What advisor? The one at your undergrad? If he is saying you don't need to report it, maybe it wasn't an IA.

IA or Institutional Action isn't just when you get caught doing something questionable, AFAIK it is when actual documented, formal discipline is meted out to you.


Ugh. My heart sinks every time I hear this from a reapplicant. It's why I shill for interfolio in every conversation about rec letters I take part in.

Is there any chance you could email or even visit the office of your past letter writers and ask very nicely and pleadingly if they would send their letters to interfolio? Set up an interfolio account. Trust me. It is worth not having to seek out your letter writers every single year if this becomes a multi-cycle ordeal.

I'd advise making this attempt sooner rather than later. The vague memories of educators with 500 students a semester can fade quickly.

I applied to mostly MD programs but I did include 2-3 DO schools. Concerning the IA, I did receive a reprimand but the discipline office says they don’t send records and nothing is reported on my transcripts.

If I were able to obtain 3 letters and get them to interfolio, should I reapply this year or next? I’m currently working on my ECs and assume reapplying next year makes more sense. I’m at a crossroads and need to decide to enter the PhD program or forgo it. My only fear is that I opt not to do the PhD, am rejected again and now I’m grasping at straws.

 

[Just D.O. it]

Concerning the IA, I did receive a reprimand but the discipline office says they don’t send records and nothing is reported on my transcripts.

My verdict : if the school advisor says you don't have to report.... then don't report

I applied to mostly MD programs but I did include 2-3 DO schools.

With your stats you need to flip this. Apply to 15-20 DOs and however many in-state public MDs you have.

If I were able to obtain 3 letters and get them to interfolio, should I reapply this year or next?

If you're able to get these letters by end of June, you're good to apply this year. 2 interviews to me strongly suggests if your luck was a little different or your school list a little broader... you'd be able to get in.

 

[buttahfubar]

My verdict : if the school advisor says you don't have to report.... then don't report



With your stats you need to flip this. Apply to 15-20 DOs and however many in-state public MDs you have.


If you're able to get these letters by end of June, you're good to apply this year. 2 interviews to me strongly suggests if your luck was a little different or your school list a little broader... you'd be able to get in.

I could not report this time but wouldn’t AMCAS flag my application because an IA was previously reported? Come to think of it, one ADCOM member I spoke to said that AMCAS flagging my application did hurt me. I have 6-7 instate schools and can apply to several DO schools. I guess I’ll just have to take a leap of faith and see what happens.

 

[Goro]

I could not report this time but wouldn’t AMCAS flag my application because an IA was previously reported? Come to think of it, one ADCOM member I spoke to said that AMCAS flagging my application did hurt me. I have 6-7 instate schools and can apply to several DO schools. I guess I’ll just have to take a leap of faith and see what happens.

Just apply DO this cycle and you don't have to worry about Plan B. Things aren't that great out there for PhDs, mind you.

 

[gyngyn]

My verdict : if the school advisor says you don't have to report.... then don't report

If the applicant received a reprimand, they are required to report it:
Institutional Action: Medical schools need to know if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment, require you to withdraw, or does not appear on your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition.

Sections 1-3 of the AMCAS® Application: Your Background Information

Guide for sections 1-3 of the AAMC's American Medical College Application Service® (AMCAS®) in which applicants will provide their background information.

students-residents.aamc.org

Now that they have reported it, a failure to report in a subsequent application will trigger an investigation and the appearance of deception. Failure to report is likely to be far more damaging that the IA itself.

 

[Just D.O. it]

If the applicant received a reprimand, they are required to report it:
Institutional Action: Medical schools need to know if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment, require you to withdraw, or does not appear on your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition.

Sections 1-3 of the AMCAS® Application: Your Background Information

Guide for sections 1-3 of the AAMC's American Medical College Application Service® (AMCAS®) in which applicants will provide their background information.

students-residents.aamc.org

Now that they have reported it, a failure to report in a subsequent application will trigger an investigation and the appearance of deception. Failure to report is likely to be far more damaging that the IA itself.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up. But since OP was still able to land interviews in spite of it, it’s clearly not an app killer right ? Meaning the original IA. So OP should still have a fair chance even with the IA standing.

 

[gyngyn]

I see. Thanks for clearing that up. But since OP was still able to land interviews in spite of it, it’s clearly not an app killer right?

That's right.
Minor IA's are a dime a dozen.

 

[PhD_to_DO]

I’m starting a PhD program this Fall knowing that I will reapply to medical school near completion. I plan on doing hospital volunteering during my PhD. I actually completed an SMP and did fairly well but was still rejected. For many reasons, I want to complete my PhD before I apply again. What other clinical experiences and ECs should I look into as a non traditional reapplicant? I’m aware of two accelerated MD programs for PhD holders but I don’t know if I’m competitive.

I successfully navigated the path from PhD to an osteopathic medical school. If you want some advice/have any questions, feel free to DM me.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Just apply directly to DO this year. The PhD will not help you for MD schools. If your ECs are not competitive, then go be a scribe or something like that for a year.

Getting a PhD is not a bad idea if it is your plan A. However I would never recommend it as a plan B. You spend 5-7 years just getting the degree, then you probably spend another 3-6 years as a post-doc, and then MAYBE you get the "reward" which is a position as an assistant professor or get an industry job. If you don't love research, don't get a PhD.

 

[buttahfubar]

Just apply directly to DO this year. The PhD will not help you for MD schools. If your ECs are not competitive, then go be a scribe or something like that for a year.

Getting a PhD is not a bad idea if it is your plan A. However I would never recommend it as a plan B. You spend 5-7 years just getting the degree, then you probably spend another 3-6 years as a post-doc, and then MAYBE you get the "reward" which is a position as an assistant professor or get an industry job. If you don't love research, don't get a PhD.

I’m just in a really peculiar situation. I have no letter writers so reapplying right away may not be possible. I’ve set up ED volunteering and planned to do it throughout my PhD. If medical school were to fall through I’d be more interested in an industry job (particularly Pharma) versus a professorship. That’s the thing, I’d did a LOT of undergrad research and I loved it but I also loved Anatomy (both undergrad and Masters level) and had interest in surgery.

I’ve already accepted the PhD position with funding and if I turn it down now, I’d be burning a bridge. I know a PhD won’t magically land me an acceptance but I think doing it would, in a weird way, reaffirm my interest in medicine ( I’d be exploring another career path and seeing if I could love it more than medicine).

 

[buttahfubar]

Just apply DO this cycle and you don't have to worry about Plan B. Things aren't that great out there for PhDs, mind you.

I know how bleak things are for PhDs in academia and industry but abdicating my accepted and funded PhD position would possibly burn a bridge at this point. Is there a way to spin a Biochemistry PhD so ADCOMs saw it a favorable?

 

[Goro]

I know how bleak things are for PhDs in academia and industry but abdicating my accepted and funded PhD position would possibly burn a bridge at this point. Is there a way to spin a Biochemistry PhD so ADCOMs saw it a favorable?

It's hard to do, not impossible, but there is a risk that you come off as a professional student, or a lab rat who doesn't want to deal with annoying, icky patients.

 

[buttahfubar]

It's hard to do, not impossible, but there is a risk that you come off as a professional student, or a lab rat who doesn't want to deal with annoying, icky patients.

I totally get this sentiment. Would volunteering weekly in the ED possibly assuage these concerns? I’ve set up an ED volunteering opportunity and hope to volunteer on the weekends. In reality, I think ADCOMs felt I thought patients were “icky” during my first two cycles due to low clinical activities. In hindsight, I think I focused too much on research in undergrad. It’s not that I don’t want patient interactions in undergrad but seeking them out was like pulling teeth. My premed office has gotten better since I graduated but they were almost nonexistent when I was a student.

 

[Goro]

I totally get this sentiment. Would volunteering weekly in the ED possibly assuage these concerns?

Very much so, and the more, the better.

I still wish to point out that by going for a PhD, you're losing up 5+ years of an attending's salary when you can handily get into a DO school now.

I’ve set up an ED volunteering opportunity and hope to volunteer on the weekends. In reality, I think ADCOMs felt I thought patients were “icky” during my first two cycles due to low clinical activities. In hindsight, I think I focused too much on research in undergrad. It’s not that I don’t want patient interactions in undergrad but seeking them out was like pulling teeth. My premed office has gotten better since I graduated but they were almost nonexistent when I was a student.

Also, not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.

Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless, the dying, or Alzheimer’s or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.

 

[Just D.O. it]

I’ve already accepted the PhD position with funding and if I turn it down now, I’d be burning a bridge.

Sure, if you turn down the phD you "burn a bridge" at one universities biochem dept

If you go through with it, assuming your first choice is still being a physician, you will burn

5 years of your time

5 years of your effort

5 years of attending salary lost via opportunity cost

It doesn't seem to be that tough a decision to me, you owe it to yourself to make a proper effort at getting those rec letters even if you have to drive or fly down to the professor's office to plead for them. Its a hell of a let less effort than sinking 5 years into a phD just for rec letters.

How many letters did you originally have? If you can even get two, there is a very wide pool of schools open for you to apply to.

Also I think you are misunderstanding

I know a PhD won’t magically land me an acceptance

It is not just that a phD won't be a trump card. It will be almost negligible in helping your chances. Like Goro mentioned it could even put some adcoms off and be a negative if you don't "spin" it well.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I’m just in a really peculiar situation. I have no letter writers so reapplying right away may not be possible. I’ve set up ED volunteering and planned to do it throughout my PhD. If medical school were to fall through I’d be more interested in an industry job (particularly Pharma) versus a professorship. That’s the thing, I’d did a LOT of undergrad research and I loved it but I also loved Anatomy (both undergrad and Masters level) and had interest in surgery.

I’ve already accepted the PhD position with funding and if I turn it down now, I’d be burning a bridge. I know a PhD won’t magically land me an acceptance but I think doing it would, in a weird way, reaffirm my interest in medicine ( I’d be exploring another career path and seeing if I could love it more than medicine).

"I'm going to spend 5+ years of my life getting a degree I don't want" is not a rational solution to not having LOR writers or a lack of clinical experience. And I'm not sure how that can be true when you did an SMP--just have them update their letters.

If you truly do love research, then have at it. Just go in with eyes wide open that you're going to need to grind in the PhD and post-doc period. Getting an industry job is not as easy as it likely is made out to be. Even coming from my ivory tower oncology program, our grad students generally needed a post-doc to be able to land a good industry job. But if you want to be a physician, then you need to pull out of this program now before you waste your time and effort on something that isn't going to help you reach your goal.

 

[APA 32]

I went from PhD to MD and if I had to do it over again I would not do the PhD. It didn’t help me get into medical school they only cared about my MCAT and undergrad GPA. If you have any chance to reapply and get into med school I would do that. If you’re still interested in doing basic science during and after residency there are plenty of opportunities to go that route and still have the opportunity to make a decent living if research doesn’t work out. My first job after grad school was working as a gas station clerk because no labs were hiring post docs. When I finally found a post doc the position had no benefits.

 

[buttahfubar]

I hear everyone loud and clear and I’m reaching out to letter writers so I can hopefully apply DO ASAP. Is there a sub thread where I can determine the best school list for me?

Thanks everyone!

 

[Just D.O. it]

I hear everyone loud and clear and I’m reaching out to letter writers so I can hopefully apply DO ASAP. Is there a sub thread where I can determine the best school list for me?

Thanks everyone!

Yes, properly format your application info and post it to the WAMC forum, the people there will be able to help you formulate a school list.

*~*~*~*IMPORTANT: How to Format Your WAMC Thread for Optimal Results and More!!*~*~*~*

Hello, and welcome to the What Are My Chances (WAMC) forum. The purpose of this forum is to Post threads about your chances of acceptance to MD and/or DO schools Have your school list critiqued and modified by other members of SDN Determine how to strengthen your current application General...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[N3utr0ph!l]

Thanks OP for this as I had similar thoughts myself—but my PhD would be in epidemiology.

I got two II from MD schools but have been subsequently waitlisted. I have similar stats to the OP as well. I actually wanted to apply to MD/PhD programs but didn’t feel like I was competitive enough for that. I work as an epidemiologist now and do enjoy my work but my end goal was always to be a physician.

I was admitted into a PhD program and if all goes well I could complete it in 3 years due to completed coursework (but who knows right). Unlike the OP they’re no bridges burned. It’s a top 5 school and I can guarantee they won’t remember my name tomorrow.

I have stellar EC’s (two different adcoms have reviewed my app).
But nothing has fundamentally changed from this current cycle to the one that is freshly starting.

Didn’t get any love from DO schools or the majority of the schools I applied to lol (27 MD, 5 DO).

To those that suggested the OP should not bother w/ the PhD would your thoughts change if it was 3 years? Thanks!

 

[APA 32]

Thanks OP for this as I had similar thoughts myself—but my PhD would be in epidemiology.

I got two II from MD schools but have been subsequently waitlisted. I have similar stats to the OP as well. I actually wanted to apply to MD/PhD programs but didn’t feel like I was competitive enough for that. I work as an epidemiologist now and do enjoy my work but my end goal was always to be a physician.

I was admitted into a PhD program and if all goes well I could complete it in 3 years due to completed coursework (but who knows right). Unlike the OP they’re no bridges burned. It’s a top 5 school and I can guarantee they won’t remember my name tomorrow.

I have stellar EC’s (two different adcoms have reviewed my app).
But nothing has fundamentally changed from this current cycle to the one that is freshly starting.

Didn’t get any love from DO schools or the majority of the schools I applied to lol (27 MD, 5 DO).

To those that suggested the OP should not bother w/ the PhD would your thoughts change if it was 3 years? Thanks!

To those that suggested the OP should not bother w/ the PhD would your thoughts change if it was 3 years? Thanks!

Those are still three years that you could have been putting towards your career in medicine so no it would not change my mine. Many of the most desirable subspecialties are becoming more competitive every year. This years anesthesia match was extremely competitive and the job market is booming as well. I don't see the point in taking more debt (I understand most biomedical science Ph.D. programs are basically free) or delaying saving for retirement.

 

[Just D.O. it]

To those that suggested the OP should not bother w/ the PhD would your thoughts change if it was 3 years? Thanks!

No, my thoughts would remain the same, see my above comment. You will still be effectively wasting time, effort, and potential salary. Just to a slightly lesser extent.

Didn’t get any love from DO schools or the majority of the schools I applied to lol (27 MD, 5 DO).

If your stats are similar to OPs, you need to apply to more DO schools (maybe 10-15ish) and show at least some good faith interest in osteopathy. It is also beneficial for DO schools to have a LoR from a DO you shadowed. Did you have one last time you applied?

 

[Osminog]

I’m doing the PhD as a more fleshed out Plan B in the event I’m not accepted to medical school.

This is a truly awful reason to pursue a PhD.

 

[buttahfubar]

I made a good faith effort to get a physician LOR but I’m not able. Inasmuch as most DO schools want a physician’s letter, what should I do?

I’m just terrified to turn down my PhD seat to keep applying because I might still be rejected. The PhD is not just a backup plan to medicine but is a career path which I actually did research and understand. I understand “following your dreams” but that doesn’t always translate to success. I’ve seen how random the application process can be.

One ADCOM I actually spoke with encouraged me to give up on medicine and just be satisfied that I got into a PhD program( same university as the med school). I felt discouraged and upset but I also realize that nothing is guaranteed. I thought doing really well in an SMP would be enough but it seems like nothing is ever just quite enough and there’s always something that could be better.

 

[Just D.O. it]

I made a good faith effort to get a physician LOR but I’m not able. Inasmuch as most DO schools want a physician’s letter, what should I do?

Not a huge deal. There are still many schools that don't require it. it will require a little effort on your part to check school websites to make a list of schools where you will be ok, but again, this is certainly not a dealbreaker. I just mentioned that it is something good to get if you can find an opportunity for it.

One ADCOM I actually spoke with encouraged me to give up on medicine

His analysis is probably confined to the stat thresholds of his own school.

It doesn't sound like this adcom is very well versed with advising people in the general sense when they are applying to multiple medical schools. Hell, I have met MDs who I have had to explain to what a D.O. is.

I would not take this person's advice too seriously. @Goro and @gyngyn are also adcoms and they seem to very much think you have a solid shot.

 

[N3utr0ph!l]

No, my thoughts would remain the same, see my above comment. You will still be effectively wasting time, effort, and potential salary. Just to a slightly lesser extent.



If your stats are similar to OPs, you need to apply to more DO schools (maybe 10-15ish) and show at least some good faith interest in osteopathy. It is also beneficial for DO schools to have a LoR from a DO you shadowed. Did you have one last time you applied?

Thanks for your response.

I didn’t, I actually never shadowed a DO before. I don’t know if I can make a meaningful connection before this next cycle but I’ll def try. And if I don’t get off the waitlists I’ll def add way more DO schools this time around.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Thread closed as the OP has been banned.