PhD to MD - should I wait?

[sp4k]

Hi All,

This is going to be one of those "what are my chances" posts, and I'd appreciate if you could help me decide whether to wait an additional year before applying or not. I've always had the passion for medicine, but I always found it intimidating (29 years old, first generation immigrant, first generation college student), that's why I went to graduate school. Recently; however, I had a change of heart. During my journey through the graduate school I found my voice and confidence, and I decided to pursue the lifelong dream, which is to have a real impact on our world and human lives. As the stats below show, my GPA isn't the greatest, but I'm a really good scientist and have excellent people's skills.

Here are my incomplete stats:

undergraduate GPA: 3.36
graduate GPA: 3.4
MCAT: tentative test date August/September

Considering primarily MD programs since I want to be involved in research.

- I'm currently pursuing PhD in Pharmacology and are scheduled to graduate next year
- Have 4 publications (2 first author), and are expected to publish 4 more (2 first author)
- Plenty of poster presentations and talks
- Grant awards: NIH, spinal cord injury, brain injury foundations
- Many, many collaborations and worked on a lot of projects
- Worked as a tutor for a year (tutored med school pre-reqs actually)
- Did 2 summers of Northeast Regional Alliance (NJMS-Columbia-MtSinai) MedPrep
- So far only 5h of shadowing
- President of the Graduate Student Association at my university
- Volunteer brazilian jiu-jitsu coach at the local martial arts academy (kids/youth/adults)
- I know for a fact that my LORs are going to be amazing. As I said before, I have really good interpersonal skills (I could probably get a letter from our janitor).

- Started shadowing 2 physicians
- Started volunteering at the local hospital (every Sunday for a few hours)
- Working on setting up additional shadowing/volunteering opportunities

I know my GPA is low and that I really lack any community service/shadowing, thus my question - should I wait additional year (my PI already told me I can stay for a year as a postdoc) so that I really get a good grasp of the nature of the field or stand a chance this year? Also, since I'm taking MCATs in August/September the admissions committee won't look at my application probably until October - is this already too late?

Thank you for all your input.

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[eteshoe]

As a nontrad, you'll already be fighting an uphill battle (especially for the MD). Take the necessary time to make your application package as competitive as possible. So no do no apply in October, work at getting a strong MCAT, get the other ECs (shadowing, volunteering, community service, etc) in line first. Make sure you can craft a compelling narrative about why medicine is the correct next step in your journey. Then apply early in the next cycle (June/July) and take the gap yr to stay on as a postdoc.

 

[Goro]

Two major challenges:

1) proving to Adcoms that you won't bail on Medicine like you did on your PhD career
2) the grad GPA is very unimpressive. You're supposed to do well in grad school, and there' s grade inflation to prove it.

Hi All,

 

[sp4k]

Two major challenges:

1) proving to Adcoms that you won't bail on Medicine like you did on your PhD career
2) the grad GPA is very unimpressive. You're supposed to do well in grad school, and there' s grade inflation to prove it.

Thank you for the input.

To address the issues you raised: I'm not entirely bailing on my PhD career. Above everything, I'm passionate about TBI. PhD can only carry me so far. Most substantial research in the field happens in the clinic. Plus, I personally believe that in 10-15 years there are going to be 2 major streams for research: 1) computational (many models can be replaced with computational models, especially for TBI), and 2) clinical (where the models are validated and findings are tested). Also, as I stated before, I've always been passionate about medicine, and I understand that it's basically something every applicant says, but PhD was an alternative way for me to still be involved. Having experienced how unsatisfying for me personally the PhD world is with respect to real world progress and impact on patients, I decided to simply pursue what I originally imagined for myself.

With regard to my graduate GPA, yes I know. My program doesn't really inflate the GPA though, but I do know that it could've been better (still working on it!). The thing about me, and the reason why my undergraduate GPA is low as well, is that I just didn't care enough to get A's. This doesn't mean that I'm a slacker though. In undergrad I'd often times miss class because I'd rather be in lab doing my research. This trend pretty much continued throughout the graduate school (didn't miss any classes, but research was always priority). My program has a written qualification examination (2 days, 14h total) at the end of the 1st year, which I actually really cared to do well on, and I ended up being top 4 out of 50 students in 7 programs at the University. Plus, my PI and faculty know this about me - that's why I think LORs can somehow repair the poor GPA.

 

[Goro]

I hate to be blunt, but even LORS from Nobel laureates aren't going to help you. It's a seller 's market and med schools can afford to turn you away.

An SMP might be in order

 

[gyngyn]

A PhD is a great accomplishment.
The standards by which you will be evaluated for medical school are the same as other applicants, though. So far, your undergraduate gpa is very low for all but a few state MD schools. Your graduate gpa is way below what is expected as well. You will need remediation of these gpa's, a strong MCAT and a lucky state of residence. This is at least a year or two of work.

Res ipsa loquitur, LOE's do not offset grades.

 

[shouldvestudied]

Two major challenges:

1) proving to Adcoms that you won't bail on Medicine like you did on your PhD career
2) the grad GPA is very unimpressive. You're supposed to do well in grad school, and there' s grade inflation to prove it.

Now that I am on the tale end of my graduate coursework in Physics, I can say that I have yet to see much grade inflation in grad school. For example, only two people (out of about 25 students) received A's in Mechanics and other courses have produced similarly rough grade distributions. My friends in the Chemistry department also report a dearth of A's in their classes, which I can partly confirm having taken a decent number of their course offerings.

Is it possible that grade inflation is more of a Biology thing? Or maybe it is just my N=2 anecdata that is the outlier?

 

[sp4k]

Now that I am on the tale end of my graduate coursework in Physics, I can say that I have yet to see much grade inflation in grad school. For example, only two people (out of about 25 students) received A's in Mechanics and other courses have produced similarly rough grade distributions. My friends in the Chemistry department also report a dearth of A's in their classes, which I can partly confirm having taken a decent number of their course offerings.

Is it possible that grade inflation is more of a Biology thing? Or maybe it is just my N=2 anecdata that is the outlier?

I can confirm. There are easy PhD programs at my University (pure biology) and my friends who decided to enroll in them are easily pushing >3.8 GPA. My program, on the other hand, is one of the most difficult. Plus, I had to take a bunch of biomedical engineering classes for my fellowship, where they don't like to give out As like candy. Luckily, those are over and now that I'm taking some easier classes I should end up with a 3.5-3.6 upon graduation.

Anyway, I know there's no excuse for poor grades. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I can afford an SMP. I guess I should start considering DO schools.

 

[gyngyn]

Anyway, I know there's no excuse for poor grades. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I can afford an SMP. I guess I should start considering DO schools.

This would probably take a year off your prep time. You would still need an MCAT of 502+ and some more clinical experience. You can still apply to your state MD programs if your MCAT is much stronger ...

 

[sp4k]

This would probably take a year off your prep time. You would still need an MCAT of 502+ and some more clinical experience. You can still apply to your state MD programs if your MCAT is much stronger ...

That's the plan! I'm constrained to my state anyway since my fiancee just defended her PhD and started a job. Luckily, there's plenty of MD and DO schools around here. I have to admit that this has been a pretty cold shower for me. I already received multiple post-doc offers, so I thought being a good scientist would provide some consolidation. I must have underestimated the power of GPA for medical school applications.

Anyway, thank you all for your advice.

 

[Goro]

Adcoms in med schools aren't looking for PIs. We're looking for people who can make it through med school and be good doctors.

That's the plan! I'm constrained to my state anyway since my fiancee just defended her PhD and started a job. Luckily, there's plenty of MD and DO schools around here. I have to admit that this has been a pretty cold shower for me. I already received multiple post-doc offers, so I thought being a good scientist would provide some consolidation. I must have underestimated the power of GPA for medical school applications.

Anyway, thank you all for your advice.

 

[sp4k]

Adcoms in med schools aren't looking for PIs. We're looking for people who can make it through med school and be good doctors.

I understand, but have to argue that GPA does not really predict success. You can't really compare a 4.0 psychology/ecology major to a <3.5 physics, ChemE, biomath.

 

[eteshoe]

I understand, but have to argue that GPA does not really predict success. You can't really compare a 4.0 psychology/ecology major to a <3.5 physics, ChemE, biomath.

Certainly true to a degree. Though I believe GPA really predicts a mixture of work ethic and resilience which can in turn lead to scholastic success (i.e. a high GPA). I was a ChemE/Biochem in UG (I wasn't a 4.0 either ) and while I don't believe a psych major would be that tough, a 4.0 is a bit ridiculous with any major since that means one has to be relentless in their pursuit and not get tripped up at all. In engineering, there tended to be so many classes where the smallest slip in focus or studying resulted in a B+/A- instead of an A (and I was fine with that). Unfortunately, with the buyer's market that is med school admissions, the adcoms don't have to settle for a lower GPA in the "tougher" majors because there are plenty of people who have higher GPAs (even some in the tougher 'hard' sciences).

 

[gyngyn]

I understand, but have to argue that GPA does not really predict success. You can't really compare a 4.0 psychology/ecology major to a <3.5 physics, ChemE, biomath.

We use both gpa and MCAT as well as the rest of the application to evaluate candidates. Since it is impossible to know the rigor of every school and every major and every prof we go by the numbers...

 

[Goro]

Actually, yes you can, and with MCAT score, even more so. People with low sGPAs tend to do poorly in our program. A 4.0 is a 4.0, whether it's from Harvard or Kutztown State.

I understand, but have to argue that GPA does not really predict success. You can't really compare a 4.0 psychology/ecology major to a <3.5 physics, ChemE, biomath.

 

[Petypet]

So much negative advice. If you do well on your MCAT you will get in somewhere, I guarantee it. If you can take some courses if you need pre-req's and can raise your gpa, you will get in somewhere more desirable for you. If you can hammer the MCAT and demonstrate the ability to take tests you may offset your MCAT a little.

That said, take your time with this process, don't make haste decisions. There are several threads on this forum with exactly the same question/stats/OMG do I apply right now/do I settle for DO/blah.

Need to slow down and make sure this process is for you. Shadow shadow shadow and get clinical experience. Carefully build your application, optimize everything, and if it is for you and apply next year. If you do well on the MCAT, with a PhD, interest in academic medicine you will get in somewhere. You said you are limited to your state, if you have a true desire and passion to become a physician don't limit yourself to 1 state. Apply broadly, MD/DO, and you will get in somewhere.

 

[QofQuimica]

Yes, OP, you should wait a year, and here's why.

1) Medical training is inherently different than graduate training. It very much comprises a series of hoops to jump through and bars to reach. So if your automatic reply to being told to jump isn't "how high?", then don't even bother starting down this path. The competency-based training model we use in medicine is the reason why medical schools are so much more focused on academic performance than grad schools are. Your GPA is acceptable, but it's on the low end of acceptable. You will absolutely need a strong MCAT performance. This is non-negotiable, and you should take your test prep seriously so you can get the best score you're capable of getting. Grade replacement for DO apps is also a reasonable strategy for you to pursue if you have a few low college grades (C or below) that you can retake to quickly bring up your UG GPA.

2) Your clinical experience is woefully inadequate. From my perspective, this deficiency is way more concerning than a 3.4 GPA. The average med school applicant logs a couple *hundred* hours' worth of clinical experience (volunteering, shadowing, work) on their app, and many applicants have much more. Five hours of shadowing is not going to cut it when it comes to convincing adcoms that you understand what a career in medicine entails. Have you been involved with any clinical research projects? That would be a good way for you to see how you like that kind of research, as well as allowing you to make contacts and obtain a LOR from a physician scientist. I started out like you (PhD in pharmaceutical chem, interested in clinical research), and I got involved with a clinical trial at my grad school that I helped out with on my own time, outside of my PhD work. (The doc I worked with was also a PhD-to-MD, and he was the one who encouraged me to take the MCAT and go to medical school.)

In general, the best advice I can give you is to do things right rather than doing them over, and don't try to skip steps or take short cuts. Med school is not like grad school. It will require you to adapt to a new way of thinking and doing things if you want to successfully transition from research to medical training. Best of luck to you.

 

[sp4k]

Yes, OP, you should wait a year, and here's why.

1) Medical training is inherently different than graduate training. It very much comprises a series of hoops to jump through and bars to reach. So if your automatic reply to being told to jump isn't "how high?", then don't even bother starting down this path. The competency-based training model we use in medicine is the reason why medical schools are so much more focused on academic performance than grad schools are. Your GPA is acceptable, but it's on the low end of acceptable. You will absolutely need a strong MCAT performance. This is non-negotiable, and you should take your test prep seriously so you can get the best score you're capable of getting. Grade replacement for DO apps is also a reasonable strategy for you to pursue if you have a few low college grades (C or below) that you can retake to quickly bring up your UG GPA.

2) Your clinical experience is woefully inadequate. From my perspective, this deficiency is way more concerning than a 3.4 GPA. The average med school applicant logs a couple *hundred* hours' worth of clinical experience (volunteering, shadowing, work) on their app, and many applicants have much more. Five hours of shadowing is not going to cut it when it comes to convincing adcoms that you understand what a career in medicine entails. Have you been involved with any clinical research projects? That would be a good way for you to see how you like that kind of research, as well as allowing you to make contacts and obtain a LOR from a physician scientist. I started out like you (PhD in pharmaceutical chem, interested in clinical research), and I got involved with a clinical trial at my grad school that I helped out with on my own time, outside of my PhD work. (The doc I worked with was also a PhD-to-MD, and he was the one who encouraged me to take the MCAT and go to medical school.)

In general, the best advice I can give you is to do things right rather than doing them over, and don't try to skip steps or take short cuts. Med school is not like grad school. It will require you to adapt to a new way of thinking and doing things if you want to successfully transition from research to medical training. Best of luck to you.

Thank you for the advice.

I also talked to some of my PhD advisors and yeah, I know I have to wait. I'd rather just apply once with the strongest application I can put together. The reason why I was asking in the first place is because sometimes I'm impatient, and also had to figure out what to do during the gap year (my PI agreed on a short term postdoc).
I'm also going to apply to DO schools.

Regarding my clinical experience - I know. I'm signing up for any shadowing opportunity I can find. I'm not involved in any clinical research, but I do collaborate on a research project with a bunch of physicians, and we submitted a proposal a while ago where one of the aims is all about clinical research (I hope it gets funded!).

Anyway, thanks and see you on the other side.

 

[clausewitz2]

Thank you for the advice.

I also talked to some of my PhD advisors and yeah, I know I have to wait. I'd rather just apply once with the strongest application I can put together. The reason why I was asking in the first place is because sometimes I'm impatient, and also had to figure out what to do during the gap year (my PI agreed on a short term postdoc).
I'm also going to apply to DO schools.

Regarding my clinical experience - I know. I'm signing up for any shadowing opportunity I can find. I'm not involved in any clinical research, but I do collaborate on a research project with a bunch of physicians, and we submitted a proposal a while ago where one of the aims is all about clinical research (I hope it gets funded!).

Anyway, thanks and see you on the other side.

Think humble when it comes to clinical volunteering/shadowing. Like, call up a local emergency department and ask if you can volunteer as a clerk. It will be an enormous culture shock, since as a senior grad student you are probably used to being treated as a junior colleague by your bosses, but I guarantee you medical training will involve you doing something more tedious and awful than filing and answering the phones at some point.

Still super pleased by my decision to go to med school after my PhD, but prepare to pass through a nadir of respect and self-regard

 

[DrMikeP]

I understand, but have to argue that GPA does not really predict success. You can't really compare a 4.0 psychology/ecology major to a <3.5 physics, ChemE, biomath.

Ultimately, most med schools are not going to look at your graduate gpa unless it is low and then it will be held against you. You will get some points for having successfully completed a graduate degree and research/publishing, but you'll also have adcoms wondering why the change and how do you know medicine is "now" the career for you!!!

Depending on the school you go to getting a 4.0 in a clinical psych doctorate program is not a walk in the park either as you have to ace the patient care stuff and clinical competency exams, which requires a whole difference skill set than the science side of physics where you might have someone great at applied math but suck at the human social skills stuff. Even with hardcore sciences there is still grade inflation, as most grad schools boot people with 1 or 2 C's and the avg grad student is not the avg student. (Speaking as someone who started off as an engineer.)

If you are wanting to get into med school you would want to avoid those grad programs known for graduating B's BUT the majority of med school applicants don't pursue doctorates in other areas first. The value of EC's, volunteering, shadowing a physician, etc can make all the difference. So bite the bullet and do what it takes to make yourself as competitive as humanly possible (meaning look a lot like the traditional med school applicant), otherwise right or wrong the odds of being in the 60% who don't get accepted are high.

If you are gunning for research heavy med schools then they will consider that graduate degree and look heavily at your research background. You had better have more than just experience as a lab assistant and want some real publications vs. being the 8th author.

Good Luck!

 

[sp4k]

Ultimately, most med schools are not going to look at your graduate gpa unless it is low and then it will be held against you. You will get some points for having successfully completed a graduate degree and research/publishing, but you'll also have adcoms wondering why the change and how do you know medicine is "now" the career for you!!!

Depending on the school you go to getting a 4.0 in a clinical psych doctorate program is not a walk in the park either as you have to ace the patient care stuff and clinical competency exams, which requires a whole difference skill set than the science side of physics where you might have someone great at applied math but suck at the human social skills stuff. Even with hardcore sciences there is still grade inflation, as most grad schools boot people with 1 or 2 C's and the avg grad student is not the avg student. (Speaking as someone who started off as an engineer.)

If you are wanting to get into med school you would want to avoid those grad programs known for graduating B's BUT the majority of med school applicants don't pursue doctorates in other areas first. The value of EC's, volunteering, shadowing a physician, etc can make all the difference. So bite the bullet and do what it takes to make yourself as competitive as humanly possible (meaning look a lot like the traditional med school applicant), otherwise right or wrong the odds of being in the 60% who don't get accepted are high.

If you are gunning for research heavy med schools then they will consider that graduate degree and look heavily at your research background. You had better have more than just experience as a lab assistant and want some real publications vs. being the 8th author.

Good Luck!

hey, thanks for the input!

i've talked to my mentors about all of this and i think i'm on a good track. getting ready to take the mcat soon. i started volunteering on top of what i already had, started shadowing different physicians, even scored a mentor through the AOA mentor exchange program. as for my credentials coming out of grad school - i've consistently published as first author since senior year of undergrad, plus have a bunch of second and middle author papers - perks of having good hands and expertise in techniques only a few labs in the world use. plus just this year i was awarded 2 more major fellowships ($110k).

i think medicine has always been the right path for me. i moved to the US about 9 years ago and had to start from scratch. i think i've come a long way since then, and worked hard to make my "american dream" a reality, it is indeed the land of opportunity. but at the same time, being an immigrant and first in my family to attend college i had little self esteem and found medical school extremely intimidating, that's why i opted out for PhD. in the end though, i'd rather use the data to help people. i think that as a person i've matured and grew enough to recognize my potential and i know that i'll make it. one way or another.

i realize i might've sound cocky or ignorant before. i definitely had my piece of the humble pie, so i want to thank everyone for suggestions and advice.

 

[StraightOuttaBrooklyn]

As a nontrad, you'll already be fighting an uphill battle (especially for the MD). Take the necessary time to make your application package as competitive as possible. So no do no apply in October, work at getting a strong MCAT, get the other ECs (shadowing, volunteering, community service, etc) in line first. Make sure you can craft a compelling narrative about why medicine is the correct next step in your journey. Then apply early in the next cycle (June/July) and take the gap yr to stay on as a postdoc.

I have to chime in here, because this is abhorrently false. Nontrad is not an uphill battle, especially for someone who is on track to finishing their graduate degree.

OP, check your inbox.

 

[eteshoe]

I have to chime in here, because this is abhorrently false. Nontrad is not an uphill battle, especially for someone who is on track to finishing their graduate degree.

OP, check your inbox.

For most purposes it would be an "uphill" battle since many nontrads are basically switching the tracks on their career projection. Basically going from a PhD (a very research intensive degree) to an MD is a drastic enough change that one would have to show an adcom that they've really thought their decision through. You're right that it would be a lot more difficult if the OP didn't finish their graduate degree (and the low grad GPA will be a challenge to explain) but I still stand by my initial comment (which was in no way meant to dissuade the OP but to paint a picture of the realities of the situation). I was a nontrad that had to show an adcom I was serious about my path after working in the engineering industry for a few yrs and just wanted to make sure that the OP takes their time in presenting themselves in the best light.

 

[TheTao]

I have to agree somewhat with eteshoe about the OP's chances being an uphill battle but not because they are a non trad. The 3.4 GPS is SUPER low for a PhD student IMHO. Combined with applying this year with a unknown MCAT score late in the application season, if I were the OP I would get more shadowing experiences in and apply next year.

FYI, I'm applying to med school in 2018 when I'll be defending my PhD (hoping I can maintain my 4.0 GPA) and I'm also targeting DO programs.

 

[sp4k]

I have to agree somewhat with eteshoe about the OP's chances being an uphill battle but not because they are a non trad. The 3.4 GPS is SUPER low for a PhD student IMHO. Combined with applying this year with a unknown MCAT score late in the application season, if I were the OP I would get more shadowing experiences in and apply next year.

FYI, I'm applying to med school in 2018 when I'll be defending my PhD (hoping I can maintain my 4.0 GPA) and I'm also targeting DO programs.

And good luck to you.

I'll hold onto my "SUPER low" GPA and see what happens.

 

[sp4k]

I'm also getting my PhD and my grad school GPA is very similar to yours. My PI explicitly told me not to waste my time studying because he wanted me in the lab, and the courses we had to take were very intense and certainly not inflated. Most everyone in my program has below a 3.5 GPA, and no one is ashamed of it. I know of a couple of people who chose to apply to med schools after and had great success at top schools with grad GPAs just like ours and fewer publications than you. Just make sure to beef up the clinical experiences (which is the fun and easy part). I was able to set up shadowing fairly easily as a committee member of mine is an MD and recommended people for me to shadow (since he doesn't currently practice). Perhaps you could do the same? Good luck on your journey! It's scary to take a leap like this, but I think it will be worth it.

Thanks!

I'm not ashamed of my GPA either, it is what it is, luckily most adcoms will look at the whole application. Even though pure research is not for me, I've had a great grad school experience. My PI treats me like a postdoc, which requires me to put in a lot of hours, but at the same time I got to design a few pilot studies and other projects that basically serve as PhD thesis projects for other students.

Luckily, we collaborate with a few surgeons from our medical school so I was able to setup shadowing that way. I also mentor a medical student so she's been very helpful trying to provide some guidance on my path to medicine.

 

[TheTao]

My comments weren't for folks who feel that unwarranted sarcasm and snidness are a good recipe for success in life. It's for the student who wants a realistic opinion of how many adcoms are going to view low graduate GPAs, very little shadowing experience, and a "hopeful" good MCAT score. And since I've had success in this process in addition to some Faculty/premed committee experience, I feel perfectly well suited to comment about it.

 

[sp4k]

My comments weren't for folks who feel that unwarranted sarcasm and snidness are a good recipe for success in life. It's for the student who wants a realistic opinion of how many adcoms are going to view low graduate GPAs, very little shadowing experience, and a "hopeful" good MCAT score. And since I've had success in this process in addition to some Faculty/premed committee experience, I feel perfectly well suited to comment about it.

Yeah, I know. This thread was posted a while ago, and since then I discovered that PhD doesn't really mean much for adcoms so I'm on track to improve my application. My gGPA is a work in progress.

And you haven't had success in this process unless you've been accepted. You said you're applying in 2018, so... Yeah.

 

[stemingen]

OP please note that your undergraduate credits will not be accepted by AAMC unless they were obtained from US or Canada. If your undergraduate program is not from these two countries, you have nothing to provide regarding undergraduate credential. The good news is that your not so great undergraduate GPA will not show in your application package; the bad news is that your still need to finish all the pre-requisites to meet the requirement of med school application. Your graduate school GPA, in most cases, can not be used to replace the pre-requisites.

 

[sp4k]

OP please note that your undergraduate credits will not be accepted by AAMC unless they were obtained from US or Canada. If your undergraduate program is not from these two countries, you have nothing to provide regarding undergraduate credential. The good news is that your not so great undergraduate GPA will not show in your application package; the bad news is that your still need to finish all the pre-requisites to meet the requirement of med school application. Your graduate school GPA, in most cases, can not be used to replace the pre-requisites.

I started from scratch and completed everything here. Moved to the U.S., learned English in 1 year, 2 years of community college, 2 years at the state university, now in grad school.

 

[stemingen]

I started from scratch and completed everything here. Moved to the U.S., learned English in 1 year, 2 years of community college, 2 years at the state university, now in grad school.

Sorry my bad. I should read more carefully. Then practice the MCAT and get a stellar score. You should be fine!

 

[sp4k]

Sorry my bad. I should read more carefully. Then practice the MCAT and get a stellar score. You should be fine!

No worries, I appreciate all the input. I actually just found out that AAMC will calculate the total GPA which includes community college. This should bring my GPA up quite a bit depending what classes they take.

 

[TheTao]

Had success = was previously ACCEPTED to med school. So yeah, THAT success. And my 3.75 GPA from a TOP graduate school in a hard core science helped a BUNCH too!

AAMC GPA calculation process:

https://aamc-orange.global.ssl.fast...140d8acb35af/amcas_grade_conversion_guide.pdf

 

[sp4k]

Had success = was previously ACCEPTED to med school. So yeah, THAT success. And my 3.75 GPA from a TOP graduate school in a hard core science helped a BUNCH too!

AAMC GPA calculation process:

https://aamc-orange.global.ssl.fast...140d8acb35af/amcas_grade_conversion_guide.pdf

Well damn, I wish I could be you then, so hardcore...

Again, good luck with your life and convincing adcoms why you finally want to be a physician.

 

[Michelest2017]

I've spoken with top 10 medical school people - grad gpas don't matter, which is why i'm so SHOCKED people would make you feel bad for a 3.4 phd... smh

You're Undergrad GPA is what matters and you can raise it still after graduating... I think it is a waste of your time, from what I've recently heard, to focus on your graduate gpa...

If I were you, I'd focus on MCAT, boosting undergrad gpa, clinical hours ....stressing over your phd gpa is a complete waste of time... it is impressive to have a phd

Although again 1. mcat, 2. undergrad gpa .... i think your phd will help a lot with competitive residencies/if you decide to be a medical professor and practice clinically

- most people don't have a phd and thus aren't going to encourage you to have one or think it's good you have one... so if i were you stop asking randos without phds about your phd - go and talk to people that did phd to md or phd/md

why would Columbia have a special phd to md (for phd students in sciences to gain admission and graduate early from med school) if they didn't want phd students lol

this entire convo is comical

*check out med schools that have phd to md where they are heavily recruiting phd students

 

[Michelest2017]

Hi All,

This is going to be one of those "what are my chances" posts, and I'd appreciate if you could help me decide whether to wait an additional year before applying or not. I've always had the passion for medicine, but I always found it intimidating (29 years old, first generation immigrant, first generation college student), that's why I went to graduate school. Recently; however, I had a change of heart. During my journey through the graduate school I found my voice and confidence, and I decided to pursue the lifelong dream, which is to have a real impact on our world and human lives. As the stats below show, my GPA isn't the greatest, but I'm a really good scientist and have excellent people's skills.

Here are my incomplete stats:

undergraduate GPA: 3.36
graduate GPA: 3.4
MCAT: tentative test date August/September

Considering primarily MD programs since I want to be involved in research.

- I'm currently pursuing PhD in Pharmacology and are scheduled to graduate next year
- Have 4 publications (2 first author), and are expected to publish 4 more (2 first author)
- Plenty of poster presentations and talks
- Grant awards: NIH, spinal cord injury, brain injury foundations
- Many, many collaborations and worked on a lot of projects
- Worked as a tutor for a year (tutored med school pre-reqs actually)
- Did 2 summers of Northeast Regional Alliance (NJMS-Columbia-MtSinai) MedPrep
- So far only 5h of shadowing
- President of the Graduate Student Association at my university
- Volunteer brazilian jiu-jitsu coach at the local martial arts academy (kids/youth/adults)
- I know for a fact that my LORs are going to be amazing. As I said before, I have really good interpersonal skills (I could probably get a letter from our janitor).

- Started shadowing 2 physicians
- Started volunteering at the local hospital (every Sunday for a few hours)
- Working on setting up additional shadowing/volunteering opportunities

I know my GPA is low and that I really lack any community service/shadowing, thus my question - should I wait additional year (my PI already told me I can stay for a year as a postdoc) so that I really get a good grasp of the nature of the field or stand a chance this year? Also, since I'm taking MCATs in August/September the admissions committee won't look at my application probably until October - is this already too late?

Thank you for all your input.

I've spoken with top 10 medical school people - grad gpas don't matter, which is why i'm so SHOCKED people would make you feel bad for a 3.4 phd... smh

You're Undergrad GPA is what matters and you can raise it still after graduating... I think it is a waste of your time, from what I've recently heard, to focus on your graduate gpa...

If I were you, I'd focus on MCAT, boosting undergrad gpa, clinical hours ....stressing over your phd gpa is a complete waste of time... it is impressive to have a phd

Although again 1. mcat, 2. undergrad gpa .... i think your phd will help a lot with competitive residencies/if you decide to be a medical professor and practice clinically

- most people don't have a phd and thus aren't going to encourage you to have one or think it's good you have one... so if i were you stop asking randos without phds about your phd - go and talk to people that did phd to md or phd/md

why would Columbia have a special phd to md (for phd students in sciences to gain admission and graduate early from med school) if they didn't want phd students lol

this entire convo is comical

*check out med schools that have phd to md where they are heavily recruiting phd students

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I've spoken with top 10 medical school people - grad gpas don't matter, which is why i'm so SHOCKED people would make you feel bad for a 3.4 phd... smh

You're Undergrad GPA is what matters and you can raise it still after graduating... I think it is a waste of your time, from what I've recently heard, to focus on your graduate gpa...

If I were you, I'd focus on MCAT, boosting undergrad gpa, clinical hours ....stressing over your phd gpa is a complete waste of time... it is impressive to have a phd

Although again 1. mcat, 2. undergrad gpa .... i think your phd will help a lot with competitive residencies/if you decide to be a medical professor and practice clinically

- most people don't have a phd and thus aren't going to encourage you to have one or think it's good you have one... so if i were you stop asking randos without phds about your phd - go and talk to people that did phd to md or phd/md

why would Columbia have a special phd to md (for phd students in sciences to gain admission and graduate early from med school) if they didn't want phd students lol

this entire convo is comical

*check out med schools that have phd to md where they are heavily recruiting phd students

I'm not. At most programs, getting less than 3.7 or 3.8 on your PhD indicates you were a serious **** up.

 

[Michelest2017]

I'm not. At most programs, getting less than 3.7 or 3.8 on your PhD indicates you were a serious **** up.

Do you have a PhD? Did you go to a top 10 med school? If not, bye Felicia...lol

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Do you have a PhD? Did you go to a top 10 med school? If not, bye Felicia...lol

I don't have a PhD but I worked for a number of years at a top 10 medical school doing research with multiple PhD candidates. Do you have cancer? How will you be able to talk about cancer when you're a doctor?! If no, bye felicia. Oops, lawyered.

 

[Michelest2017]

I don't have a PhD but I worked for a number of years at a top 10 medical school doing research with multiple PhD candidates. Do you have cancer? How will you be able to talk about cancer when you're a doctor?! If no, bye felicia. Oops, lawyered.

Undergrad GPA is what matters for medical schools. I am telling her to stay focused on what matters. Whether or not what you say is true, the fact is Undegrad GPA is what admins care about then MCAT.

That is the first and most important hurdle...so for her and you guys to be caring about the difference in a 3.4/3.7 gpa for a phd programs shows me you don't understand what is important to get into medical school, let alone a top medical school.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Undergrad GPA is what matters for medical schools. I am telling her to stay focused on what matters. Whether or not what you say is true, the fact is Undegrad GPA is what admins care about then MCAT.

That is the first and most important hurdle...so for her and you guys to be caring about the difference in a 3.4/3.7 gpa for a phd programs shows me you don't understand what is important to get into medical school, let alone a top medical school.

Are you in medical school at all? Because I am and I've been through the system.

I made a commentary about how it's not shocking that a 3.4 graduate is viewed negatively. Yes, your undergraduate GPA is the biggest hurdle, but if you think ADCOMs will see a great undergrad and just magically ignore a graduate GPA, you're seriously ignorant about human nature and admissions (particularly top schools). The reason most of the time undergraduate GPA is all that's seen is because graduate programs nearly always give a free 4.0, so an app with undergrad 2.9 and grad 3.9 doesn't indicate there's been real improvement.

 

[Michelest2017]

Are you in medical school at all? Because I am and I've been through the system.

I made a commentary about how it's not shocking that a 3.4 graduate is viewed negatively. Yes, your undergraduate GPA is the biggest hurdle, but if you think ADCOMs will see a great undergrad and just magically ignore a graduate GPA, you're seriously ignorant about human nature and admissions (particularly top schools). The reason most of the time undergraduate GPA is all that's seen is because graduate programs nearly always give a free 4.0, so an app with undergrad 2.9 and grad 3.9 doesn't indicate there's been real improvement.

Dude - seriously stop being so insecure lol

 

[Michelest2017]

Dude - seriously stop being so insecure lol

I have spoken with admissions reps at top 10 med schools...

Your undergrad GPA and MCAT are what matter. Not everyone gets a PhD so they can't judge your GPA for that across the board. How in the heck can anyone evaluate someone who has a PhD in physics from MIT with a 3.0 vs. a 4.0 MPP from Harvard, there is no way to know. But it doesn't matter, because it is a FACT that medical schools look at undergrad gpa.

Your undergrad GPA is what matters and then MCAT - this is the very first hurdle... if you don't cross this hurdle they won't even consider the rest

Now, after you pass that hurdle a grad degree is looked at like an extracurricular activity, unless you were kicked out of the school or have academic dishonestly, a low gpa in an extracurricular activity is not going to hurt you...it's like being a member of a club instead of president of a club...

Again, I can't stress enough, no one gives a **** about grad gpa - only undergraduate and then specifically your science GPA... so you would do better to take undergrad courses and get a high undergrad gpa - you are completely and utterly wasting your time being worried about grad gpa

you being worried about grad gpa is the equivalent of being worried that an extra curricular activity doesn't look good enough for med school... okay either join another club or feel free to highlight some other volunteer experience... phd will be looked at the same as an extracurricular activity

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Dude - seriously stop being so insecure lol

I have spoken with admissions reps at top 10 med schools...

Your undergrad GPA and MCAT are what matter. Not everyone gets a PhD so they can't judge your GPA for that across the board. How in the heck can anyone evaluate someone who has a PhD in physics from MIT with a 3.0 vs. a 4.0 MPP from Harvard, there is no way to know. But it doesn't matter, because it is a FACT that medical schools look at undergrad gpa.

Your undergrad GPA is what matters and then MCAT - this is the very first hurdle... if you don't cross this hurdle they won't even consider the rest

Now, after you pass that hurdle a grad degree is looked at like an extracurricular activity, unless you were kicked out of the school or have academic dishonestly, a low gpa in an extracurricular activity is not going to hurt you...it's like being a member of a club instead of president of a club...

Again, I can't stress enough, no one gives a **** about grad gpa - only undergraduate and then specifically your science GPA... so you would do better to take undergrad courses and get a high undergrad gpa - you are completely and utterly wasting your time being worried about grad gpa

You keep throwing your opinion here with projections about yourself. I don't have anything to be insecure about. I've been very clear about my credentials while you have not responded about your status in medical school. You also want your cake and eat it. I can't talk about a PhD because I don't have one, but you can talk about top medical schools without even being in any medical school.

Like it or not, this is the reality of the situation. Nobody is saying undergrad and MCAT aren't important. They are telling you that grad is not dismissed the way you want it to. Whether you believe that admissions has no way of knowing the difference between PhD (very unlikely given that they are in a top university and are academics), they still do judge it.

My advice to OP is to do as best in undergrad GPA and MCAT because those are the things they can change. The grad GPA is not seen in a positive light, but OP can't change that.

 

[Michelest2017]

You keep throwing your opinion here with projections about yourself. I don't have anything to be insecure about. I've been very clear about my credentials while you have not responded about your status in medical school. You also want your cake and eat it. I can't talk about a PhD because I don't have one, but you can talk about top medical schools without even being in any medical school.

Like it or not, this is the reality of the situation. Nobody is saying undergrad and MCAT aren't important. They are telling you that grad is not dismissed the way you want it to. Whether you believe that admissions has no way of knowing the difference between PhD (very unlikely given that they are in a top university and are academics), they still do judge it.

My advice to OP is to do as best in undergrad GPA and MCAT because those are the things they can change. The grad GPA is not seen in a positive light, but OP can't change that.

I don't want grad school to be dismissed, I am indifferent. This is about what actually matters come admission time. I am talking about what objectively matters the most for admission into a top 10 school. A 3.4 phd is not going to keep her out of a top ten medical school.

I said my credentials, this is from talking to top 10 medical school reps... grad school is viewed as an extracurricular activity (never said it would be dismissed but instead it would be viewed as an extra curricular activity).... I do not have to be a current medical school student to speak about things that are facts.

Bottom line, if she does not get into the medical school of her choice, it won't be because of a 3.4 phd program, it will be because of low gpa/ low science gpa/ possible low mcat score/the rest of her application - these are FACTS.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

If you were concerned about your undergrad gpa and mcat as much as you are concerned about making a mess out of her phd gpa - maybe you would have made it into a top 10 medical school yourself...

Hahaha the personal insults from a premed.

 

[Michelest2017]

Hahaha the personal insults from a premed.

Just getting into medical school is a great accomplish and you're right, it's something I haven't even done and am trying to do so you are very right about that. I'm a debater at heart and can easily become too impassioned...so forgive me....

Since she is coming to this forum for help, I'm curious to know, what would you do to better your application if you were in her shoes?

Do you know if her PhD GPA would hurt her immediately (for example when they screen applications) or would it hurt her like after the stage of being invited to an interview with them looking closely at her app? If it were to come up in interviews, how would you recommend she approach answering or what do you recommend she not say?

If it is true that grad schools look at this like an extracurricular activity, does it mean she should beef up her extracurricular activities or take more graduate courses and get a higher overall GPA.

I just think sometimes we focus too much on the problem and not solutions.

Anyways, I think it's good we don't all agree all the time and we passionately aim to give people advice, I've enjoyed hearing your comments and think you are correct. I can get too passionate on these forums, so excuse me! Let's just never open the discussion to politics and I think we are good!

 

[Naruhodo]

Hi OP,

First of all, congratulations on your decision to pursue medicine.

I wanted to suggest you take a serious look at NYIT. I know most of us, especially with research backgrounds, feel there are more research opportunities at MD schools but don't overlook what is on offer at some DO schools. NYIT has a program that in exchange for a research year (i.e. a 5th year of medical school) students receive a 50% scholarship for their entire medical education. Research is already a strength of yours, and I believe you might be interested in the NY area, so this kind of tuition reduction is nothing to sneeze at.

None of the postings above are personal and you shouldn't get too wrapped up in these sorts of forums, but there is wisdom to be gleaned if you can sort signal from noise. I wish I'd done as you and others have done and posted my background (and school list when you have it) here prior to applying. A few people, including my mentors and a pre-med advisor told me that with a PhD and a 520+ MCAT I'd have no problem getting into medical schools. However, my uGPA wasn't anything to write home about (3.6) and, of greater concern, the bulk of my clinical volunteering was a few years old (pre-PhD) and I was light on shadowing primary care providers (make sure to do this too and don't just shadow surgeons or other specialists). You will thank yourself later. Best of luck!

 

[sp4k]

Hi OP,

First of all, congratulations on your decision to pursue medicine.

I wanted to suggest you take a serious look at NYIT. I know most of us, especially with research backgrounds, feel there are more research opportunities at MD schools but don't overlook what is on offer at some DO schools. NYIT has a program that in exchange for a research year (i.e. a 5th year of medical school) students receive a 50% scholarship for their entire medical education. Research is already a strength of yours, and I believe you might be interested in the NY area, so this kind of tuition reduction is nothing to sneeze at.

None of the postings above are personal and you shouldn't get too wrapped up in these sorts of forums, but there is wisdom to be gleaned if you can sort signal from noise. I wish I'd done as you and others have done and posted my background (and school list when you have it) here prior to applying. A few people, including my mentors and a pre-med advisor told me that with a PhD and a 520+ MCAT I'd have no problem getting into medical schools. However, my uGPA wasn't anything to write home about (3.6) and, of greater concern, the bulk of my clinical volunteering was a few years old (pre-PhD) and I was light on shadowing primary care providers (make sure you do this too and don't just shadow surgeons or other specialists). You will thank yourself later. Best of luck!

Thank you, I'll definitely look into NYIT.

To address what other people said: grad schools vary. Yes, there are schools that give 4.0 like candy, but there are also schools that don't. Either way, 3.4 gGPA didn't stop me from publishing papers, patents, starting a company, or scoring fellowships and grants from ALL major national and state agencies. Yes, I know this doesn't qualify me for medical school, but the point is - there's more to PhD than gGPA.

A lot of things have changed since I made the original post. I started working with a physician involved in admissions at one of MD schools and he's been mentoring me through the process. I decided to take things slowly, got involved in a lot of science outreach, volunteering opportunities, science policy, and started shadowing. I also secured a postdoc at one of the top 3 medical schools which will give me even more clinical exposure. I plan to start applying in 2018.

Thanks again everyone for the advice and tough love.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Just getting into medical school is a great accomplish and you're right, it's something I haven't even done and am trying to do so you are very right about that. I'm a debater at heart and can easily become too impassioned...so forgive me....

Since she is coming to this forum for help, I'm curious to know, what would you do to better your application if you were in her shoes?

Do you know if her PhD GPA would hurt her immediately (for example when they screen applications) or would it hurt her like after the stage of being invited to an interview with them looking closely at her app? If it were to come up in interviews, how would you recommend she approach answering or what do you recommend she not say?

If it is true that grad schools look at this like an extracurricular activity, does it mean she should beef up her extracurricular activities or take more graduate courses and get a higher overall GPA.

I just think sometimes we focus too much on the problem and not solutions.

Anyways, I think it's good we don't all agree all the time and we passionately aim to give people advice, I've enjoyed hearing your comments and think you are correct. I can get too passionate on these forums, so excuse me! Let's just never open the discussion to politics and I think we are good!

Unfortunately, you are right that whatever damage comes from it is not something that can be mitigated now. ADCOM are people and different ones will interpret it differently. My best guess is that in places or people that care they will ask. A good answer needs to be in place besides "some classes are hard." What that answer is, I don't know. It's also not an EC like any other, so it's not like you can put 400 hours into ED work and that mitigate it.

Definitely putting more work into undergraduate GPA and MCAT will give the best return.