PhD vs. MD Question

[mayonasian24]

Hi All,

I'm going into my senior year of college and have been working in a lab for more than a year now. Over this past year I've been going back and forth between the two career options and would really appreciate a third party perspective.

I started out as pre-med, transferred from CC to 4 year school with ~3.5 GPA. After my first year, I haven't gotten a single A in a class other than my 199 research course (basically automatic) and probably fell to ~3.4 GPA. Over the past year I've been slowly drifting away from being pre-med for numerous reasons: want to enjoy college, want to do the things I want to do, not the things I have to do because it looks good on my CV, etc.

Most importantly though, I really like research. I love reading papers and learning about new and cool things, I love thinking of new experiments, and I love the idea of creating new knowledge.

The Caveat: I'm not very good at the execution aspect of science. Troubleshooting is so incredibly difficult and can be pretty frustrating at times. Research is something that I've always felt wasn't my strong suit, but despite the incredible struggle, I enjoy every aspect of it. Honestly when it comes to science, I feel like that kid in little league who loves the game of baseball, but just doesn't have the talent to take it to the next level.

On the other hand, while I was still pre-med I did a fair amount of shadowing and even went on an int'l medical mission trip (I know if any medical students, residents, fellows or attendings are reading this, they are probably thinking "so you mean you have no idea what it's like to be a physician). In those brief and possibly irrelevant moments, I felt so comfortable, confident, and "in my element" if you will. Patient interaction is truly unique.

Second Caveat: I hated studying just to get A's. I feel like I learn nothing and it's pretty depressing which is why I stopped after I transferred. That and I have no sense of time management, discipline, or organization skills; meaning I would get crushed in medical school.

Conclusion: I love science, research, problem-solving, but am not very confident I will be able to be a competent scientist (ala little league metaphor).

I also love medicine I love the patient aspect, I'm usually a very confident person and I feel that clinical medicine is much easier for me to grasp and take lead of than biomedical research, however, the lack of discipline and desire to do whatever it takes to get A's in school is a serious red flag for anyone considering medicine.

Any perspectives, relatable stories, etc? Is it glaringly obvious which route I should take and I simply am just not aware?

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[Medstart108]

MD. Dont' do PhD, its tough to get a job even with a PhD. Even the worst doctor gets paid better than most PhDs. And like you said, you don't think you have what it takes to make it in research. Try the MCAT. If you do well apply, with your GPA you might consider DO school as well.

 

[hoihaie]

do MD. as MD you can do as much as waht PhDs do, including research and running a lab, but as PhD, you can't do physician stuff.

 

[allantois]

Second Caveat: I hated studying just to get A's. I feel like I learn nothing and it's pretty depressing which is why I stopped after I transferred. That and I have no sense of time management, discipline, or organization skills; meaning I would get crushed in medical school.

This sounds like traits desirable neither in medical school nor graduate school. Study to learn the material, and get As to prove your knowledge. The fact that you did not get any As after transferring from a CC is a huge red flag.

Also, I doubt that your GPA is 3.4 taken into account the information you provided (that you transferred with a 3.5 GPA and hasn't gotten As ever since, except for that research course). If you are interested in PhD, you can ask your PI for advice.

 

[mayonasian24]

Thank you for the replies. While I am aware that MD's have a much more comfortable and secure lifestyle, I personally am uninterested in worrying about either. I want a fulfilling career that makes me happy far above all else, the rest I believe will fall into place. And while I am also aware that MD's can be very successful in science, I am also aware that funding for MD only scientists is harder to secure than PhD or MD/PhD scientists which is possibly why MD-only research faculty are so few and far between.

 

[mayonasian24]

@allenichs I appreciate your 1st half of the response. No BS. I like that. However, although this is the internet and people can lie, I wouldn't have wasted my time with the initial longwinded post if I didn't calculate my GPA myself. So at the risk of revealing my identity, I will explain. It took me 3 years to transfer to a university as I had to finish my requirements. I took enough credits to be in my final semester of my senior year before I transferred. I have spent 1 year at 4 year school and my GPA is ~3.2 (uni only) after that year. Just because I didn't get any A's doesn't mean I got C's.

But going back to the more helpful 1st part. I know its a red flag..that is precisely why I said those exact words in my initial post. However, I definitely have the intellectual capability (none of the classes I have taken are difficult material wise at all), just lack the study skills (and partially motivation) to get those A's. I understand that if I want something I have to try my hardest to get it, however it's difficult to be motivated when I'm stuck in the middle.

 

[hoihaie]

Thank you for the replies. While I am aware that MD's have a much more comfortable and secure lifestyle, I personally am uninterested in worrying about either. I want a fulfilling career that makes me happy far above all else, the rest I believe will fall into place. And while I am also aware that MD's can be very successful in science, I am also aware that funding for MD only scientists is harder to secure than PhD or MD/PhD scientists which is possibly why MD-only research faculty are so few and far between.

you can always collaborate with other scientists to get easier funding. You'd just have to share a portion of that grant money though, most likely.

 

[mysdnhandle]

If you want a career that will make you happy, first focus on the career part. Look up the realities of what a PhD in the bio-sciences will get you, how long it will take you to get a tenure-track position (which means an income that will sustain a family), the chances of that happening, etc.. basically what it takes to even have a career. If you're in it for the long haul and really like science then the PhD is for you. Also consider your "institutional pedigree" because names matter in science.

I used to "love research" when I was a student with rainbows flying out of my a$$ then I was a lab tech for a year. I changed my mind very quickly. Now I think medicine is a good career to help me enjoy life.

 

[masaraksh]

If you want a career that will make you happy, first focus on the career part. Look up the realities of what a PhD in the bio-sciences will get you, how long it will take you to get a tenure-track position (which means an income that will sustain a family), the chances of that happening, etc.. basically what it takes to even have a career. If you're in it for the long haul and really like science then the PhD is for you. Also consider your "institutional pedigree" because names matter in science.

I used to "love research" when I was a student with rainbows flying out of my a$$ then I was a lab tech for a year. I changed my mind very quickly. Now I think medicine is a good career to help me enjoy life.

Right, because a PhD only means you can pursue academic jobs that pay bad

 

[kaprincess247]

Interesting perspective on PhD field. I've also talked to several people in biotech and pharmaceutical industry in the R&D and clinical trials departments that say MDs are more highly valued than PhDs and hold the higher level jobs in the companies.

 

[BMC11]

Hi All,

I'm going into my senior year of college and have been working in a lab for more than a year now. Over this past year I've been going back and forth between the two career options and would really appreciate a third party perspective.

I started out as pre-med, transferred from CC to 4 year school with ~3.5 GPA. After my first year, I haven't gotten a single A in a class other than my 199 research course (basically automatic) and probably fell to ~3.4 GPA. Over the past year I've been slowly drifting away from being pre-med for numerous reasons: want to enjoy college, want to do the things I want to do, not the things I have to do because it looks good on my CV, etc.

Most importantly though, I really like research. I love reading papers and learning about new and cool things, I love thinking of new experiments, and I love the idea of creating new knowledge.

The Caveat: I'm not very good at the execution aspect of science. Troubleshooting is so incredibly difficult and can be pretty frustrating at times. Research is something that I've always felt wasn't my strong suit, but despite the incredible struggle, I enjoy every aspect of it. Honestly when it comes to science, I feel like that kid in little league who loves the game of baseball, but just doesn't have the talent to take it to the next level.

On the other hand, while I was still pre-med I did a fair amount of shadowing and even went on an int'l medical mission trip (I know if any medical students, residents, fellows or attendings are reading this, they are probably thinking "so you mean you have no idea what it's like to be a physician). In those brief and possibly irrelevant moments, I felt so comfortable, confident, and "in my element" if you will. Patient interaction is truly unique.

Second Caveat: I hated studying just to get A's. I feel like I learn nothing and it's pretty depressing which is why I stopped after I transferred. That and I have no sense of time management, discipline, or organization skills; meaning I would get crushed in medical school.

Conclusion: I love science, research, problem-solving, but am not very confident I will be able to be a competent scientist (ala little league metaphor).

I also love medicine I love the patient aspect, I'm usually a very confident person and I feel that clinical medicine is much easier for me to grasp and take lead of than biomedical research, however, the lack of discipline and desire to do whatever it takes to get A's in school is a serious red flag for anyone considering medicine.

Any perspectives, relatable stories, etc? Is it glaringly obvious which route I should take and I simply am just not aware?

I'm finishing up a PhD. I would note that your grades are on the low end for competitive funded PhD programs. Also, you state that you only have a year of research experience. This is not enough to be competitive. If you want a PhD, take 1-2 years off and tech in lab full time. The job prospects are actually quite good if you're willing to consider industry in addition to academia. According to a report from the NIH this year, biomed PhDs have solid employment stats and we make decent money overall.
That being said, If you do not think you can break out from the little league intellectually in the lab, you should not apply. Grad school is like being dropped into the deep end of the pool and being a very weak swimmer. Some people end up drowning, and other people make it. If you can't work with minimal guidance and come up with your own ideas to execute and design experiments, you won't finish. You must be able to troubleshoot and work out your own problems alone. It will be a tedious, painful task just getting through each week if you are not good at these things.

 

[URHere]

If you enjoy patient contact, but you hate studying and you value lifestyle so much that you chose not to study more in college, I'm not sure that either the MD or the PhD path is right for you.

There are other careers that will give you patient contact - have you thought about becoming a PA or NP? Of course, studying is also involved, but the training phase tends to be a bit more hands-on and a little less intense and it is my impression that you can narrow down your focus a little bit earlier. Just something to think about.

 

[mysdnhandle]

Right, because a PhD only means you can pursue academic jobs that pay bad

He's talking about research so I'm assuming its academic. Yes they pay bad. For a postdoc in his 30s, making 40k is bad pay. Its terrible pay. And its not getting better in our current political climate. Current NIH funding is sad.

Industry jobs pay better but i doubt they have what the OP is looking for.

Op, you may want to consider mstp or md phd. You really need a great application though.

 

[BMC11]

He or she is right--for md/phd you need a great package. The students that get spots in those programs are above and beyond the cream of the crop. Your undergraduate GPA will prevent you from achieving admission since it's so crazy competitive. Plus you're lacking significant research experience.

If I were you, I'd try for MD. You can always work in a lab in a heavily mentored situation.

 

[Aerus]

I don't understand when people say "I hate studying to get an A. I don't learn anything." If you want to learn to learn and not just for the A, then learn to learn. But if you're not getting an A, you're probably not learning as much as you need.

 

[Goro]

Stick with Medicine

 

[mayonasian24]

I don't understand when people say "I hate studying to get an A. I don't learn anything." If you want to learn to learn and not just for the A, then learn to learn. But if you're not getting an A, you're probably not learning as much as you need.

This may be a personal thing, but I view learning as the ability to take in information, understand it, and be able to apply concepts logically to other problems. For example, outside of learning the techniques and basics of how molecular biology is done, I don't see the relevance of dedicating 10 weeks to memorizing a bunch of transcription factors, operons, etc. that I will never encounter again, so I spend less time memorizing and more time understanding concepts. Yes, learning the concept of what transcription factors, etc are and how they function is important and worth learning, and I definitely do know how these things operate. However, I personally do not view memorization and learning as equals. I get B's on my exams because I do very well with applying the concepts to new situations, but do poorly with recalling that specific protein that does a specific thing in a specific region, etc.

I am definitely learning to learn, and you're right. I am not learning as much as I need...to get an A in a class (thought this was obvious), but personally I feel I am learning a lot in my classes.

 

[mayonasian24]

@everyone else

I sincerely thank you for your honest and helpful replies. It's actually really interesting that I'm getting responses that I shouldn't pursue either which is really cool because admittedly, sometimes I feel that way too. If not medicine/science then what?

However, I do know that I have a passion for the science of disease and want to dedicate my career towards combating these problems. This is the reason I have it down between these two professions as both offer an avenue towards fulfilling that goal (albeit in very different ways).

While I am flattered that you have even suggested MSTP, I am fully aware of my limitations as far as competitiveness for those programs, which is a reason I did not include this option in the original post.

I apologize that I forgot to mention that I already have plans on taking 1-2 years off after graduation to work in a lab full time to further help my decision. However I decided to seek out the opinions of anonymous forum dwellers like myself because I think an unbiased (well, sorta) and completely blunt opinion is very important.

Also, to people who are saying to stick with medicine, is there something about my OP or responses that lead you to believe that that's the right choice for me? Or is it because medicine is the more stable career, blah blah blah.

On a side note: Anyone who may have had the same mentality as myself when it came to studying have any specific study tips that helped you A. Successfully cope with this mentality or B. helped you get over this mentality. If I may, I'd like to request that people don't just tell me to suck it up and do it, I think strategies and tips are going to be much more helpful to me in solving this problem of mine.

 

[NickNaylor]

Do you want to treat patients? If the answer to that question is no - regardless of your other desires - then do not go to medical school. You will be miserable for at least a year and several more should you decide to do residency, and a PhD will be significantly more useful to you in your goals.

If you have an interest in treating patients but also want to do research within that context, then get the MD. As others have mentioned, it is more than possible to do research as an MD, though contrary to the rosy picture being painted here I don't think it's equivalent to having a PhD and you will face some bias as a MD if you're interested in running a basic science lab. The research most commonly done by MDs - usually clinical or epidemiological work - is not the same as basic science work.

 

[moisne]

Ok - maybe I'm the meanest one here, but I don't think you are cut out for either. I would suggest PA, nursing, research assistant, etc. You struggle to get almost ANY A's... (DO schools might give you a chance if you really want it). You will be competing against those who almost always get A's. The situation is reversed for you. Plus, you don't sound like the type who would fit in a medical school. "I did what I felt like" - if your goal is med school , you shouldn't be putting your social life in front of med school... :/

No offense, but if you can't trouble shoot something you will NEVER run a lab, you will always be working for someone else - even with a PhD. Then talking about writing papers to get funding. Well, research is all about trouble shooting and solving/answering a question. Are you really young to make it int hat world? Rarely, but the only times my professor was in the lab was to help with something we couldn't get to work, the rest of the time, he reads and write.

 

[mayonasian24]

Ok - maybe I'm the meanest one here, but I don't think you are cut out for either. I would suggest PA, nursing, research assistant, etc. You struggle to get almost ANY A's... (DO schools might give you a chance if you really want it). You will be competing against those who almost always get A's. The situation is reversed for you. Plus, you don't sound like the type who would fit in a medical school. "I did what I felt like" - if your goal is med school , you shouldn't be putting your social life in front of med school... :/

No offense, but if you can't trouble shoot something you will NEVER run a lab, you will always be working for someone else - even with a PhD. Then talking about writing papers to get funding. Well, research is all about trouble shooting and solving/answering a question. Are you really young to make it int hat world? Rarely, but the only times my professor was in the lab was to help with something we couldn't get to work, the rest of the time, he reads and write.

As I said before I'm looking for harsh answers as I think they speak the most "truth." Yes I agree I struggle to get A's, but I hope you are not confusing that for lack of intelligence/capability to do so. At the risk of sounding arrogant, there has been absolutely no class (besides electricity and magnetism, good lord that was so non-intuitive for me) where I didn't understand things the first time I heard it/read about it/etc. Upper div bio class material is ridiculously easy, it's just difficult for me to sit down and study the material so I can remember it all come exam day. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, I know I can easily get A's IF (big IF) I learned the some actual study skills that work for me and had the motivation day in and day out. As of right now my goal isn't med school. I'm stuck in the middle of both. I'm the type of person that ONLY if my heart is 100% set on something, I'll do whatever it takes. Which is why my goal here is to figure out the right path for me so I can put my heart and soul into it.

Hmm, ok. So I never said I don't know how to troubleshoot, I said it's frustrating and difficult. And, the only reason it is difficult for me is because it's a bit depressing when an experiment doesn't work for 2 months. The others in lab tell me "that's science, it happens to everyone," and indeed it is definitely happening to them as well (we work with a particularly difficult model organism for the experiments we are doing). However, I think that maybe I feel like i'm in "little league" because this is the first time in my life that I've actually tried really hard at something and am still struggling. School is easy (not grade wise but material wise), baseball was easy (was always the top pitcher on my team, could throw 88-90 mph, without trying as hard as others), but getting experiments to work is just plain hard no matter what.

 

[mayonasian24]

Do you want to treat patients? If the answer to that question is no - regardless of your other desires - then do not go to medical school. You will be miserable for at least a year and several more should you decide to do residency, and a PhD will be significantly more useful to you in your goals.

If you have an interest in treating patients but also want to do research within that context, then get the MD. As others have mentioned, it is more than possible to do research as an MD, though contrary to the rosy picture being painted here I don't think it's equivalent to having a PhD and you will face some bias as a MD if you're interested in running a basic science lab. The research most commonly done by MDs - usually clinical or epidemiological work - is not the same as basic science work.

It isn't that I don't want to treat patients, I would love to be able to do that. But at the same time, I also would love to be able to run my own lab writing grants, coming up with new ideas, and mentoring other up and coming scientists. I'm not saying I HAVE to do both, but that either of them would make me happy. Hence the struggle.

 

[moisne]

As I said before I'm looking for harsh answers as I think they speak the most "truth." Yes I agree I struggle to get A's, but I hope you are not confusing that for lack of intelligence/capability to do so. At the risk of sounding arrogant, there has been absolutely no class (besides electricity and magnetism, good lord that was so non-intuitive for me) where I didn't understand things the first time I heard it/read about it/etc. Upper div bio class material is ridiculously easy, it's just difficult for me to sit down and study the material so I can remember it all come exam day. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, I know I can easily get A's IF (big IF) I learned the some actual study skills that work for me and had the motivation day in and day out. As of right now my goal isn't med school. I'm stuck in the middle of both. I'm the type of person that ONLY if my heart is 100% set on something, I'll do whatever it takes. Which is why my goal here is to figure out the right path for me so I can put my heart and soul into it.

Hmm, ok. So I never said I don't know how to troubleshoot, I said it's frustrating and difficult. And, the only reason it is difficult for me is because it's a bit depressing when an experiment doesn't work for 2 months. The others in lab tell me "that's science, it happens to everyone," and indeed it is definitely happening to them as well (we work with a particularly difficult model organism for the experiments we are doing). However, I think that maybe I feel like i'm in "little league" because this is the first time in my life that I've actually tried really hard at something and am still struggling. School is easy (not grade wise but material wise), baseball was easy (was always the top pitcher on my team, could throw 88-90 mph, without trying as hard as others), but getting experiments to work is just plain hard no matter what.

The ratio of success to failure has been around 1:50.
Both research and med school requires an enormous amounts of dedication. I never implied you were not intelligent enough as I wouldn't be able to judge via Internet, but you are clearly lacking something - and I think you know it is commitment and motivation?

 

[mayonasian24]

The ratio of success to failure has been around 1:50.
Both research and med school requires an enormous amounts of dedication. I never implied you were not intelligent enough as I wouldn't be able to judge via Internet, but you are clearly lacking something - and I think you know it is commitment and motivation?

Yes it most certainly is commitment and motivation for me, which is why I think I can overcome this and find a way. I've got one year of college left. I am certainly going to try and get as many A's as possible, hopefully get a publication out of my research, take 1-2 years off as a fulltime RA, and hopefully get another pub. Ideally, during that time I will be able to more confidently decide between the two and either A. apply to graduate school, or B. do a post-bacc/informal post-bacc, crush those classes, and apply to med school. How does that sound for a plan?

 

[InsertUsername]

I had this same problem last year, and I feel for ya, its not a fun place to be when you're stuck inbetween fields.

My biggest advice would be to take the time to look into what its really like in both fields. Talk to professors, med students, grad students, physicians etc. Find resources online. But most importantly take the time to think about what you really want to spend your life doing. No one on SDN is going to be able to tell you what career is best for you. Thats only going to come from yourself.

If you're having trouble finding commitment or motivation then you're not ready to choose, take the time to figure it out for yourself and then take the steps to get where you want to be.

 

[mayonasian24]

I had this same problem last year, and I feel for ya, its not a fun place to be when you're stuck inbetween fields.

My biggest advice would be to take the time to look into what its really like in both fields. Talk to professors, med students, grad students, physicians etc. Find resources online. But most importantly take the time to think about what you really want to spend your life doing. No one on SDN is going to be able to tell you what career is best for you. Thats only going to come from yourself.

If you're having trouble finding commitment or motivation then you're not ready to choose, take the time to figure it out for yourself and then take the steps to get where you want to be.

Thank god there is someone out there with the same problem. Your post has definitely put me more at ease. I guess I'm just a bit neurotic in the sense that I've never been so unsure about something in my life and it just BUGS me. I know it will come down to me figuring it out for myself, I just figure getting a 3rd party perspective could potentially catalyze this process by giving me some kind of direction to go into.

 

[hoihaie]

Either way, your first step into PhD is getting into research. That is also a great step towards MD as well. So you got at least a year of doing Research to figure it out. if you don't like PhD, you still wont be off course from going for an MD and vice versa

 

[BMC11]

@everyone else

I sincerely thank you for your honest and helpful replies. It's actually really interesting that I'm getting responses that I shouldn't pursue either which is really cool because admittedly, sometimes I feel that way too. If not medicine/science then what?

However, I do know that I have a passion for the science of disease and want to dedicate my career towards combating these problems. This is the reason I have it down between these two professions as both offer an avenue towards fulfilling that goal (albeit in very different ways).

While I am flattered that you have even suggested MSTP, I am fully aware of my limitations as far as competitiveness for those programs, which is a reason I did not include this option in the original post.

I apologize that I forgot to mention that I already have plans on taking 1-2 years off after graduation to work in a lab full time to further help my decision. However I decided to seek out the opinions of anonymous forum dwellers like myself because I think an unbiased (well, sorta) and completely blunt opinion is very important.

Also, to people who are saying to stick with medicine, is there something about my OP or responses that lead you to believe that that's the right choice for me? Or is it because medicine is the more stable career, blah blah blah.

On a side note: Anyone who may have had the same mentality as myself when it came to studying have any specific study tips that helped you A. Successfully cope with this mentality or B. helped you get over this mentality. If I may, I'd like to request that people don't just tell me to suck it up and do it, I think strategies and tips are going to be much more helpful to me in solving this problem of mine.

It's GREAT that you are taking the 2 years off to be a technician. I would press the pause button on this decision for about another year. You will quickly know your lab limitations after about a year at the bottom of the pecking order. If you overcome your issues, and do seriously good lab work (and get an excellent rec from your tech job PI)...you will be competitive for grad programs. Sit tight and see how it goes. I stand by what I said earlier--if you can't troubleshoot easily (and happily), you shouldn't be doing it.

 

[What's Up Doc]

OP, I really think you should get involved with at least a little bit of shadowing and volunteering in a clinical setting; those two things alone can provide an incredible amount of direction and motivation. I'm only in my second year of undergrad, but I feel that I can speak about this with some authority. I've been pre-med since I started college and during my first year I was constantly anxious and stressed - not to a debilitating level, but it definitely made me question whether I really wanted to become a doctor or not. Then I became a volunteer at a children's hospital working very closely with patients. Since I started, there's been no doubt in my mind that medicine is the only path for me (specifically a subfield of peds, tbd in about 6 years ). Accompanying that lack of doubt have been better grades (A+'s instead of A's.. I'm at a community college 🤣), more motivation than I've ever had, and great extracurricular opportunities that have regularly found me. Shadowing has had a similar (while less extreme) effect.

You already have a lot of experience with research and know that you're interested in it; find out the same about medicine, and everything else will fall into place. Good luck.