Physical Therapy and MONEY $$$

[ktachiba]

Your professor is a perfect example of the ivory-tower academic who is out of touch with reality. Salaries reflect supply and demand. PT schools are sprouting up like mushrooms after a big rain. Online schools are also vying for accreditation. So the supply of PTs is going to increase, and salaries will drift down. Of course, schools will paint a rosy picture of the profession - they only survive if there are students willing to pay tuition costs.

As for the 80K average PT salary figure you mentioned, are you talking new-grad salary, or experienced-PT salary?

The 80K was average PT salary (new grads and experienced PTs), just as the $65K was 5 years ago when I was looking it up on Google. So, wouldn't that be a good indicator that the average income for the PT field is increasing? Also, other than pharmacy, which health care fields have suffered from the opening of new grad schools? For some reason, I'm not too worried about the future of jobs in PT even with new schools opening, as many students are turned off by the low starting salary of PTs compared to other health professions that require 3+ years of graduate work (dentistry, MD, PA).

I could see PA becoming oversaturated as I have had some buddies in medical school tell me they would have gone to PA school over medical school due the $100,000+ salary, flexibility, and of course 2 year commitment.

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[jjjDPT]

I do believe that the nature of PT education limits class sizes which will help save us (hopefully) from over saturation. I can't imagine a PT class of 200 students like Pharmacy/Medicine is able to pull off.

 

[engmedpt]

PA is gonna be super solid for a while. Your friends are saying that because they have to do a 3-7 year horrific residency paid 40k a year, working 80 hours a week (now, it used to be so much worse) doing overnights, and being the hospital dog. The physicians will keep on saying that its "paying their dues." Its a terrible system thats low paid and horrific for their health even though it primarily is supposed to be where they get the training for their specialty. They get the training, but all the extras totally suck after busting it for 4 years.

PT should increase in pay if we as new grads negotiate our salaries with employers. Although more schools have increased, the output is still relatively small because of class size. The projected growth of the field doesnt show that there will be an oversaturation. It looks like there's a need. If there's a need, then it becomes more of a buyer's market rather than an employer's market (you can drop that 10k sign on bonus into savings for the year and start killing debt). Don't listen to your school's professors. Try to make projections yourself. The one problem is the reimburesement issue. If those are significantly declining then idk how pay will get affected.

I thought new grad start was around 60-70 though unless it was travel, snf, or HH which pull in heavy income. That being said, one place I did hours offered 55k to new grads.....if I couldn't negotiate that up into the 60s then I would want right out of the room without a second glance.

 

[engmedpt]

^as jjjDPT said.....my cohort has a 1 for every 12 applicants. that class size prevents a massive amount of pumping grads out.

 

[jblil]

The 80K was average PT salary (new grads and experienced PTs), just as the $65K was 5 years ago when I was looking it up on Google. So, wouldn't that be a good indicator that the average income for the PT field is increasing?

When comparing salaries across the years, you have to make sure there's an apple-to-apple comparison. How were the 80K and the 65K figures computed? In each case, was the mix of new-grads and experienced PTs the same? Having lots of new grads will pull the salary down, just like having lots of veteran PTs will push it up. So unless I am sure that the algorithm was kept the same across the years, I wouldn't trust the numbers.
I was at the CSM convention last week. Every single PT I have talked to said it's much harder to make a living now, than a few years ago.

Also, other than pharmacy, which health care fields have suffered from the opening of new grad schools?

Optometry and Vet have been decimated by oversupply, and the salaries have taken a hit.

 

[engmedpt]

^I like your comments. They're good, but make sure to look at the projected job growth. More grads for a greater need won't lead to an oversupply. There MAY be oversupply in some specialties though....like ortho which is likely not as a high need as acute

Im good to continue this convo with you.

 

[ktachiba]

PA is gonna be super solid for a while. Your friends are saying that because they have to do a 3-7 year horrific residency paid 40k a year, working 80 hours a week (now, it used to be so much worse) doing overnights, and being the hospital dog. The physicians will keep on saying that its "paying their dues." Its a terrible system thats low paid and horrific for their health even though it primarily is supposed to be where they get the training for their specialty. They get the training, but all the extras totally suck after busting it for 4 years.

PT should increase in pay if we as new grads negotiate our salaries with employers. Although more schools have increased, the output is still relatively small because of class size. The projected growth of the field doesnt show that there will be an oversaturation. It looks like there's a need. If there's a need, then it becomes more of a buyer's market rather than an employer's market (you can drop that 10k sign on bonus into savings for the year and start killing debt). Don't listen to your school's professors. Try to make projections yourself. The one problem is the reimburesement issue. If those are significantly declining then idk how pay will get affected.

I thought new grad start was around 60-70 though unless it was travel, snf, or HH which pull in heavy income. That being said, one place I did hours offered 55k to new grads.....if I couldn't negotiate that up into the 60s then I would want right out of the room without a second glance.

hahaha yeah he's actually applying for residency right now

 

[ktachiba]

The 80K was average PT salary (new grads and experienced PTs), just as the $65K was 5 years ago when I was looking it up on Google. So, wouldn't that be a good indicator that the average income for the PT field is increasing?

When comparing salaries across the years, you have to make sure there's an apple-to-apple comparison. How were the 80K and the 65K figures computed? In each case, was the mix of new-grads and experienced PTs the same? Having lots of new grads will pull the salary down, just like having lots of veteran PTs will push it up. So unless I am sure that the algorithm was kept the same across the years, I wouldn't trust the numbers.
I was at the CSM convention last week. Every single PT I have talked to said it's much harder to make a living now, than a few years ago.

Also, other than pharmacy, which health care fields have suffered from the opening of new grad schools?

Optometry and Vet have been decimated by oversupply, and the salaries have taken a hit.

Interesting, I didn't know that about Optometry and Vet. Thanks for the info!

 

[engmedpt]

Give him some support. My sisters was straight hell but life is good now. The PT residency isnt abusive, but youre paid 30k to "hopefully" get more in depth clinical education, get a superfluous extra title faster than the 3 year time commitment, and maybe secure the job spot.........................seems unbelievably unnecessary and poorly planned unless your spot is incredibly hard to enter. If you're intelligent, very hard working and like doing evidence based research on your own time then I suggest nailing your four clinicals, finding PT's with excellent experience that would be a coworker or boss, networking with LinkedIn and trying to secure employment at that spot, being paid what you deserve while working under or with someone who can guide you.

 

[ktachiba]

Give him some support. My sisters was straight hell but life is good now. The PT residency isnt abusive, but youre paid 30k to "hopefully" get more in depth clinical education, get a superfluous extra title faster than the 3 year time commitment, and maybe secure the job spot.........................seems unbelievably unnecessary and poorly planned unless your spot is incredibly hard to enter. If you're intelligent, very hard working and like doing evidence based research on your own time then I suggest nailing your four clinicals, finding PT's with excellent experience that would be a coworker or boss, networking with LinkedIn and trying to secure employment at that spot, being paid what you deserve while working under or with someone who can guide you.

yeah I was laughing because that's probably the reason why he said that, not because I don't support him. My dad is an internal medicine doctor, and he told me he used to get paid like $15-20,000 for residency back in his days (~1980's). He actually thinks students in residency have it good now haha.

 

[ktachiba]

Also, I think I should clarify that my Physiology professor only told me that the reason PT salaries decreased in the 1990's was because the profession couldn't prove that its methods were responsible for patient's recovery. He never predicted that salaries would increase. I think that is why "Evidence Based Practice" is a big emphasis in most PT programs, because it will provide scientific evidence that our methods help patients recover (which maybe will lead to better salaries?)

 

[engmedpt]

yeah I was laughing because that's probably the reason why he said that, not because I don't support him. My dad is an internal medicine doctor, and he told me he used to get paid like $15-20,000 for residency back in his days (~1980's). He actually thinks students in residency have it good now haha.

Your Dad was right in the sense that they have it easy in terms of hours, but man, in terms of salary to debt.......last generation was like 15k tuition. If he was paid greater than tuition then that's awesome. Today its 40k salary to 120k tuition in state before living expenses.......

As for the rationale for higher salaries, that's an advocacy thing for APTA. Ill tell you what though, PT can prevent a visit to the doctor for a lot of issues. Getting that recognition is a thing going on right now I believe. Will salaries follow? They absolutely should, but not sure if they would work like that.

 

[ktachiba]

Your Dad was right in the sense that they have it easy in terms of hours, but man, in terms of salary to debt.......last generation was like 15k tuition. If he was paid greater than tuition then that's awesome. Today its 40k salary to 120k tuition in state before living expenses.......

As for the rationale for higher salaries, that's an advocacy thing for APTA. Ill tell you what though, PT can prevent a visit to the doctor for a lot of issues. Getting that recognition is a thing going on right now I believe. Will salaries follow? They absolutely should, but not sure if they would work like that.

Haha yeah his salary to debt ratio was probably really good back then, especially since he went to medical school in the Philippines (I'm assuming its cheaper in foreign countries). Yeah hopefully APTA is able to make the transition to a doctorate degree worth it financially in the near future

 

[Watson27]

I believe that the PT profession will increase in salary now that all schools are doctorates. My physiology professor said something about how PT salaries decreased in the 90's because there was a lack of evidence based practice (I believe he said Hilary Clinton had something to do with it). But now with a emphasis in evidence based practice in most PT programs, and the move toward a doctorate degree, it feels that PT salaries will increase and be more reflective of the amount of hard work it takes to become a PT. Also, wasn't it just 5 years ago the average PT salary was around $65,000, and now its already up to $80,000?

Not that it's all about money, but it's difficult to understand the logic of PA's and NP's getting paid so much more .

I can't believe that a DPT will increase salaries while there are still bachelor's and master's PTs in the work force. Could you justify paying a new DPT grad more than a PT with 20+ years of experience?

PAs and NPs have a different role in health care. I don't think that is a good comparison. And yes, they make more than PTs, but much less than MDs. My mother is a psych NP and gets paid half of what a physician does for the same job. Many states do not require collaborative practice and NPs are able to act independently. NPs and PAs are often a way for clinics to save major $$.

I guess my point is that our designation as "doctors" does not mean that we should make more money than PAs and NPs. Different job, different reimbursement rates, different liability. If volume of education effected salary, than DPTs should make more than anyone with an MBA.

 

[NewDPT31]

I can't believe that a DPT will increase salaries while there are still bachelor's and master's PTs in the work force. Could you justify paying a new DPT grad more than a PT with 20+ years of experience?

PAs and NPs have a different role in health care. I don't think that is a good comparison. And yes, they make more than PTs, but much less than MDs. My mother is a psych NP and gets paid half of what a physician does for the same job. Many states do not require collaborative practice and NPs are able to act independently. NPs and PAs are often a way for clinics to save major $$.

I guess my point is that our designation as "doctors" does not mean that we should make more money than PAs and NPs. Different job, different reimbursement rates, different liability. If volume of education effected salary, than DPTs should make more than anyone with an MBA.

It's all very relative to the area.
My girlfriend is an Ortho PA. She makes $115k in Chicago, but of course her ortho attending makes $700k. So to say they "get paid half" depends entirely on the scope. Psych is not a high paying field. Her cousin's fiancee is an obg NP. She makes a lot less than her attending.
My sister is a PT also, and her fiancee is an Emergency PA. He makes about 115k in a rural town. Everything depends on the situation and the city.

With that being said, both my sister and I have said over the last few years that we wish we had gone to PA school. Way more autonomy, but with a catch(ill explain later). School length is about the same, and both have really good job demand. The income and profit sharing abilities of a PA are wayyyyy higher. Not to mention they are above us in the medical heirarchy, can start or stop their patients from coming to us, and I'll say for a fact my GF knows way more than me about ortho(but again, she's an ortho PA)(and im outpatient ortho).
The catch is that PA's have to work under an MD. now, for the most part, that's not a huge deal with say...how you treat a patient. It more comes down to the paperwork and leg work of the clinic. At her last ortho job, she worked with a really good surgeon. Turns out he was an dingus, she worked 90 hours a week on salary pay, and had to be available at all hours, even on vacation to answer patient calls and fill scripts. She came to her senses and found an ortho group that doesn't kill their PAs, for which I'm very happy! haha.
As the PA, she gets there an hour before the surgeon(think 6am), puts in all the orders for post surgery, starts the case and preps everything, makes the incisions, the surgeon walks in-does his thing, she closes him up, and they go to the next one. On clinic days, she sees the patient, takes history. Then she goes to next room while he walks in, decides plan of care, writes it on the pad, and makes a pile for her so she can spend the evening at our apartment dictating all of his notes(they routinely would see 75-90 patients on clinic days)(and reimbursement for orthos is about $200-275/visit). It's really a sweet gig for the surgeons to have PAs, because she makes good money, but it's a drop in the bucket for the amount of work the surgeon gets to bypass. And like I said, she has switched groups to a less money driven group so she works around 50 hours a week now and gets treated with respect. I know a lot of PAs at family clinics who put in crazy amounts of work too. I've found that PT is a much less pressure job and our patients look at us as ancillary.

Also, EVERYTHING depends on where you live. To the posters who work in rural areas or small towns like Iowa has who have $200k mortgages, that's all well and good. But the job market is way more saturated and tough in bigger cities, the taxes are much higher, and the cost of living is wayyyy higher. If you are in school and are thinking, well that will be manageable and I'll just live somewhere cheap. That's great. More power to you. But a lot of PTs come out in their mid 20s, are single, and want big city life-like Chicago where I am. I grew up in a town of ~75k people. I couldn never go back to that, even though PT demand is high and my parents have a 5br/3bath worth $100k. life is different, and it works for some people but not others. I originally said I'll stay in Phoenix for 5 years. I left after 1 because I couldn't stand it. The point is, you never know what is going to happen in life and it's irresponsible to think too far in advance with any amount of certainty. God will laugh at your plans haha.

 

[engmedpt]

I can't believe that a DPT will increase salaries while there are still bachelor's and master's PTs in the work force. Could you justify paying a new DPT grad more than a PT with 20+ years of experience?

PAs and NPs have a different role in health care. I don't think that is a good comparison. And yes, they make more than PTs, but much less than MDs. My mother is a psych NP and gets paid half of what a physician does for the same job. Many states do not require collaborative practice and NPs are able to act independently. NPs and PAs are often a way for clinics to save major $$.

I guess my point is that our designation as "doctors" does not mean that we should make more money than PAs and NPs. Different job, different reimbursement rates, different liability. If volume of education effected salary, than DPTs should make more than anyone with an MBA.

Here's the deal. I absolutely agree that DPTs should not have higher pay than a PT or MPT with 20 years experience, however, I think its horrific that one year of our schooling is approximately 4 full time working rotations with less class than clinic time while dropping anywhere from 20-35k in tuition to the school for that time frame. The starting salary should get a bump and we should be negotiating our wages pretty hard coming out of school. We have a more intense curriculum than those who have been working in the field and our internships are work experience, not reading a text. Im also going to say that Im not arguing that we should make the same as a PA because those applicants usually have significantly more work experience than us (avg age is 27....nurses, paramedics moving up ect.), however, were trained specifically for expertise in rehab while a PA is trained to be a general practitioner that can move in and out of specialties without a set focus (that focus obviously gets specialized after working for years in a specialty or niche ect.). The massive gap in wages and our increased schooling is not justified at all IMO.

Let me know how you feel about that. Being honest. I'd like some feedback and that is really how I see it.

 

[ktachiba]

I can't believe that a DPT will increase salaries while there are still bachelor's and master's PTs in the work force. Could you justify paying a new DPT grad more than a PT with 20+ years of experience?

PAs and NPs have a different role in health care. I don't think that is a good comparison. And yes, they make more than PTs, but much less than MDs. My mother is a psych NP and gets paid half of what a physician does for the same job. Many states do not require collaborative practice and NPs are able to act independently. NPs and PAs are often a way for clinics to save major $$.

I guess my point is that our designation as "doctors" does not mean that we should make more money than PAs and NPs. Different job, different reimbursement rates, different liability. If volume of education effected salary, than DPTs should make more than anyone with an MBA.

I believe that both new grads and PTs with experience should have an increase in salary haha. New grads ~80K minimum, and those with experience ~100K ... I believe those numbers are more appropriate for the amount of work we do to get a DPT (or MPT)

 

[ktachiba]

Here's the deal. I absolutely agree that DPTs should not have higher pay than a PT or MPT with 20 years experience, however, I think its horrific that one year of our schooling is approximately 4 full time working rotations with less class than clinic time while dropping anywhere from 20-35k in tuition to the school for that time frame. The starting salary should get a bump and we should be negotiating our wages pretty hard coming out of school. We have a more intense curriculum than those who have been working in the field and our internships are work experience, not reading a text. Im also going to say that Im not arguing that we should make the same as a PA because those applicants usually have significantly more work experience than us (avg age is 27....nurses, paramedics moving up ect.), however, were trained specifically for expertise in rehab while a PA is trained to be a general practitioner that can move in and out of specialties without a set focus (that focus obviously gets specialized after working for years in a specialty or niche ect.). The massive gap in wages and our increased schooling is not justified at all IMO.

Let me know how you feel about that. Being honest. I'd like some feedback and that is really how I see it.

Yeah, I plan on negotiating my salary once I graduate (hopefully I will graduate haha). I'm glad I have a background in business economics and management because I feel like it will help me in negotiating my salary.

 

[jblil]

Negotiating our pay: The market will decide how much we get paid. One cannot say that we deserve more pay because we have more intense schooling or more in-depth knowledge. When I started my college career many many moons ago I wanted to study astrophysics, a pretty tough major. Once I poked around a bit and saw the average salary of astrophysicists (around 60K, at the time - and this with a PhD), I switched to engineering. So astrophysicists, who have a lot of esoteric knowledge, are very poorly rewarded for what they know.

The market will weigh the supply and demand for PTs and it will set our salary. If you venture out to the boonies where few PTs want to go, your pay will be higher because the supply is constrained. OTOH, if you want to be in saturated areas like NYC or Chicago or LA, your pay will be lower - just as NewDPT31 stated in his post.

Make sure you have something that sets you aside from all the other new-grads: extra work experience, skills in marketing or in a foreign language (Spanish would be very useful) or in website design, a sought-after certification, etc. If I were hiring and I had 10 candidates with basically the same set of skills, I won't negotiate the pay and will pick the guy who will accept my lowest offer. OTOH, if one person stands out with some skills I badly need for my practice or my department, I will certainly increase my offer to snag him/her. I was a hiring manager in a previous life, so I speak from personal experience.

TL; DR: The market will set our salary. Acquire extra skills to stand out from all the other new grads so you have a chance at negotiating your pay.

 

[engmedpt]

^I'll agree to that but here's the thing. A market consists of consumers, sellers, employers and employees. IF the projected job growth continues to look so bright and class sizes remain low, do you not believe that a buyer's market for new grads will develop, at least in some specialties (not shooting for ortho in LA, NYC or Chicago here....)? Yes, if everything changes then goodbye negotiation, but given my scenario what do you think?

Astrophysics is underpaid, yes, but they get fully paid for stipends to get the PhD without 6%+ interest loans.

 

[NewTestament]

If physical therapists had true autonomy, then we would probably be paid more. As long as third-party payers, especially Medicare, refuse to reimburse our services without a physician's script, and we're seen as "allied health," then our salaries are going to be limited.

However, I agree with the OP's in this thread. The best thing to do as a new grad is to work in a rural area. You will get paid more, receive more benefits like sign-on bonuses and debt forgiveness, and these facilities will try harder to retain you. The COL in these areas is also very low, even in expensive states like NY and CA. I've contacted several staffing agencies and they have tons of jobs in these remote areas. Work in a rural area for a few years, and then move to your city of choice.

The problem with new grads is that they want their first job to be their dream job in their favorite city and they want to work in a particular setting- almost always outpatient orthopedics. They pigeonhole themselves and restrict their options.

If you're a new grad, be flexible and open-minded.

 

[jblil]

IF the projected job growth continues to look so bright and class sizes remain low, do you not believe that a buyer's market for new grads will develop, at least in some specialties (not shooting for ortho in LA, NYC or Chicago here....)?

The US population does get older and will eventually need more healthcare, including PT. The problem is how to pay for it. Let's face it, we PTs are at the mercy of Medicare (which is projected to run out of money by 2030) and of for-profit insurance companies whose main goal is to "return value to their shareholders" (i.e., line their own pockets first, and the hell with patients). So while job growth will be there -someone is going to have to take care of all those seniors-, I am not sure wage growth will accompany it. There is simply not enough money to go around. That's why we have this stupid annual Medicare cap of $1,920 for PT and Speech Therapy combined.

I was at the CSM convention last week, and talked to a bunch of travel companies. They do have lots of jobs, but mostly in SNFs and in rural areas, just as New Testament stated in the post above.

 

[NewTestament]

Medicare is heading for bankruptcy and no tax increase will save it. It was an unsustainable program from the beginning. But that's a different argument.

Every health care professional will be affected and almost everyone's salary will go down. But ultimately the death of Medicare and insurance companies will be the best thing for health care and physical therapy. We won't be slaves to CMS anymore.

And if I can't find a job as a physical therapist, then it's back to nursing school...

 

[DesertPT]

IF the projected job growth continues to look so bright and class sizes remain low...

I don't think there is a lot of evidence that the number of new graduates each year will not be enough to keep pace with the growth of the PT job market and the attrition rate of PTs.

This year ~9700 students will graduate PT school, and that number climbs steadily each year. Supposedly the profession is growing in size by about 7300 each year, at least according to the BLS (which I know is more often questionable than not). If you factor in a reasonable attrition rate among the 210,00+ PTs there currently are, the 9700 number seems pretty decent.

I don't see PT totally going the way of law and pharmacy in the coming few years, but it is eventually going to saturate in most areas just like many other desirable, graduate degree-requiring professions have. In the post-recession years history has been reliably repeating itself in this regard.

PT does have to have smaller class sizes compared to things like pharmacy. But there are already 228 accredited schools and at least 22 more in development or in candidacy stage. I think the number of PT student graduating each year now is about the right amount to keep pace with national demand, and if the number of schools was capped at where it is now for the next 10 years or so, the job market would remain very strong and salaries may even creep up a little faster. But as long as there is money to be made and a virtually limitless supply of willing students ready to pay whatever it costs, the number of schools will continue to proliferate.

 

[DesertPT]

Medicare is heading for bankruptcy and no tax increase will save it. It was an unsustainable program from the beginning. But that's a different argument.

Every health care professional will be affected and almost everyone's salary will go down. But ultimately the death of Medicare and insurance companies will be the best thing for health care and physical therapy. We won't be slaves to CMS anymore.

And if I can't find a job as a physical therapist, then it's back to nursing school...

I hope your right...maybe we all have to slog through a decade or so of crappy pay once medicare kicks the bucket, and then our efforts will ultimately be rewarded once some other system of paying for healthcare evolves in its place. At least that's what I'd like to think, in my land of rainbows and sunshine...

 

[ktachiba]

Negotiating our pay: The market will decide how much we get paid. One cannot say that we deserve more pay because we have more intense schooling or more in-depth knowledge. When I started my college career many many moons ago I wanted to study astrophysics, a pretty tough major. Once I poked around a bit and saw the average salary of astrophysicists (around 60K, at the time - and this with a PhD), I switched to engineering. So astrophysicists, who have a lot of esoteric knowledge, are very poorly rewarded for what they know.

The market will weigh the supply and demand for PTs and it will set our salary. If you venture out to the boonies where few PTs want to go, your pay will be higher because the supply is constrained. OTOH, if you want to be in saturated areas like NYC or Chicago or LA, your pay will be lower - just as NewDPT31 stated in his post.

Make sure you have something that sets you aside from all the other new-grads: extra work experience, skills in marketing or in a foreign language (Spanish would be very useful) or in website design, a sought-after certification, etc. If I were hiring and I had 10 candidates with basically the same set of skills, I won't negotiate the pay and will pick the guy who will accept my lowest offer. OTOH, if one person stands out with some skills I badly need for my practice or my department, I will certainly increase my offer to snag him/her. I was a hiring manager in a previous life, so I speak from personal experience.

TL; DR: The market will set our salary. Acquire extra skills to stand out from all the other new grads so you have a chance at negotiating your pay.

That's true, but I've looked at surveys of recent graduates' salaries, and many of them said that they did not try and negotiate their salary. I believe I would at least make an attempt to negotiate my salary if I felt the offer was too low.

Yeah I really regret not taking my parent's advice when I was younger and learning Japanese. But when you're a kid, you make some dumb decisions at times. But right now, I am trying to get my CSCS before DPT school starts because I have a strong interest in outpatient/sports, and I believe it will help me in negotiating a salary. I also wanted to have more knowledge about the strength and conditioning field because I find it interesting and I have actually been trying to apply some concepts at the gym and in my diet.

I plan to work per diem on the weekends at either a SNF, acute setting, or home health. I would also consider doing traveling PT if the salary was right, and if it is a smart decision for recent graduates. I love the flexibility and variety of our job, and the ways that we can add to our income (in addition of it being a very rewarding career). I also think I would enjoy all the different fields, except maybe pediatrics. But I believe with the right work ethic and desire, you can make ~$90-100,000 as a recent graduate.

 

[ktachiba]

If physical therapists had true autonomy, then we would probably be paid more. As long as third-party payers, especially Medicare, refuse to reimburse our services without a physician's script, and we're seen as "allied health," then our salaries are going to be limited.

However, I agree with the OP's in this thread. The best thing to do as a new grad is to work in a rural area. You will get paid more, receive more benefits like sign-on bonuses and debt forgiveness, and these facilities will try harder to retain you. The COL in these areas is also very low, even in expensive states like NY and CA. I've contacted several staffing agencies and they have tons of jobs in these remote areas. Work in a rural area for a few years, and then move to your city of choice.

The problem with new grads is that they want their first job to be their dream job in their favorite city and they want to work in a particular setting- almost always outpatient orthopedics. They pigeonhole themselves and restrict their options.

If you're a new grad, be flexible and open-minded.

Would you recommend being a traveling PT as a recent grad?

 

[jblil]

Would you recommend being a traveling PT as a recent grad?

You should be asking PTs who are currently doing that, we're still in school. For us to give you an opinion would be like for a priest to talk about sex education. Oh wait...

 

[Watson27]

This year ~9700 students will graduate PT school, and that number climbs steadily each year. Supposedly the profession is growing in size by about 7300 each year, at least according to the BLS (which I know is more often questionable than not). If you factor in a reasonable attrition rate among the 210,00+ PTs there currently are, the 9700 number seems pretty decent.

CAPTE projects 8978 graduates in 2015 and 9009 for 2016, based on current enrollment.

 

[NewDPT31]

Yeah, I plan on negotiating my salary once I graduate (hopefully I will graduate haha). I'm glad I have a background in business economics and management because I feel like it will help me in negotiating my salary.

Congrats. You will negotiate up from 62k to 64k, and they will make you work 1 saturday a month.

In a SUPPLY AND DEMAND job, with reimbursement currently set as fee for service...The ONLY negotiating tool you have is that you are ok with working terrible hours, are willing to move somewhere where there is a need, and you are broke from grad school and really need money.

With Medicare slowly(or quickly depending on how you see it) moving to a quality driven reimbursement system that rewards good outcomes, maybe the DPT will give you some leverage. But that will depend on data which shows new DPT's are producing better reimbursement because of outcomes. I think new grads and especially current students tend to underestimate the quality and expertise of non DPTs.

Also, 1 of the last posters on this thread said something about getting a CSCS to improve their negotiating. Seriously, save your money. It will put extra letters after your name which nobody will care about(trust me-I love letters after my name-but nobody outside of an LA fitness knows or cares what that is). I almost took it towards the end of PT school, bought the book, flipped through the questions and it was so easy I realized it was not worth my time. That being said, it's good to read through for clarification about some olympic moves and get a few ideas for exercises, but that's about it. It will not help you get a job.

Students, listen to the current therapists. Don't "bank" on these ideas I've been reading. And unless your professor still works in the field...like actually works, the academic ivory tower is where everyone farts flowers.

 

[engmedpt]

In a SUPPLY AND DEMAND job, with reimbursement currently set as fee for service...The ONLY negotiating tool you have is that you are ok with working terrible hours, are willing to move somewhere where there is a need, and you are broke from grad school and really need money.
.

Yeah, new grad started at 90k with a sign on bonus for the high need area she's at. That'll give you more leeway.

62-64 negotiation does makes sense for a typical OP ortho spot though. Applicants going in thinking they're gonna be working with a pro sports team seem incredibly naive to me. Definitely should make a budget at 60k worst case scenario and see options after you're out.

Have you heard anything about moving to cash based practice? Guy whos been in the field about 7 years (very intelligent) was mentioning that. Not so sure about what that would entail and all the problems associated with that tho

 

[ktachiba]

Congrats. You will negotiate up from 62k to 64k, and they will make you work 1 saturday a month.

In a SUPPLY AND DEMAND job, with reimbursement currently set as fee for service...The ONLY negotiating tool you have is that you are ok with working terrible hours, are willing to move somewhere where there is a need, and you are broke from grad school and really need money.

With Medicare slowly(or quickly depending on how you see it) moving to a quality driven reimbursement system that rewards good outcomes, maybe the DPT will give you some leverage. But that will depend on data which shows new DPT's are producing better reimbursement because of outcomes. I think new grads and especially current students tend to underestimate the quality and expertise of non DPTs.

Also, 1 of the last posters on this thread said something about getting a CSCS to improve their negotiating. Seriously, save your money. It will put extra letters after your name which nobody will care about(trust me-I love letters after my name-but nobody outside of an LA fitness knows or cares what that is). I almost took it towards the end of PT school, bought the book, flipped through the questions and it was so easy I realized it was not worth my time. That being said, it's good to read through for clarification about some olympic moves and get a few ideas for exercises, but that's about it. It will not help you get a job.

Students, listen to the current therapists. Don't "bank" on these ideas I've been reading. And unless your professor still works in the field...like actually works, the academic ivory tower is where everyone farts flowers.

Yeah I meant to say I would make an attempt to negotiate my salary, instead of just accepting whatever they offer. I believe there are a lot of job openings in PT, so it should still be a buyer's market, so I feel that negotiating would be smart regardless of the location (unless you really want to work somewhere).

Also, I got the CSCS more for personal knowledge rather than as a way to gain a competitive edge. I've been applying some concepts in my diet and workout routine so far. Why did you buy the book and study, and not take the test?

Also, what are your thoughts on being a traveling PT after graduation?

 

[ktachiba]

Yeah, new grad started at 90k with a sign on bonus for the high need area she's at. That'll give you more leeway.

62-64 negotiation does makes sense for a typical OP ortho spot though. Applicants going in thinking they're gonna be working with a pro sports team seem incredibly naive to me. Definitely should make a budget at 60k worst case scenario and see options after you're out.

Have you heard anything about moving to cash based practice? Guy whos been in the field about 7 years (very intelligent) was mentioning that. Not so sure about what that would entail and all the problems associated with that tho

Which field of PT is that new grad working?

 

[Bluecase]

Congrats. You will negotiate up from 62k to 64k, and they will make you work 1 saturday a month.

...,

Students, listen to the current therapists. Don't "bank" on these ideas I've been reading. And unless your professor still works in the field...like actually works, the academic ivory tower is where everyone farts flowers.

Few truer things have been said on this forum. As I have mentioned in other posts on other topics- grain of salt before you
believe the gospel some of the students or pre PTs say in this forum prior to actually going through it even though they might be the first to respond.

 

[NewTestament]

But I believe with the right work ethic and desire, you can make ~$90-100,000 as a recent graduate.

I think that's too optimistic. I'm planning to do travel therapy or work in a rural setting but I'm not expecting to make more than $75k for 40 hours. If I work an extra eight hours on the weekend I might be able to reach $80-85k.

 

[DesertPT]

CAPTE projects 8978 graduates in 2015 and 9009 for 2016, based on current enrollment.

Thanks for correcting me Watson. I guess my number was a little high...the CAPTE website says there are 29,246 students currently enrolled so I divided by 3 to get 9748, and rounded down to say ~9700. But I suppose the 1st and 2nd year classes that are in right now may be bigger than the 3rd year classes and the attrition rate might be a little higher.

But maybe the fact sheet I found from 2012-13 that those number you cited are in could have under-projected the enrollment growth by a little bit? idk...

 

[jblil]

you can make ~$90-100,000 as a recent graduate.

Possibly... But it may mean living in some hellhole; or working 7 days of 10 hrs each; or "pushing the envelope" on legal stuff, which lots of SNFs do. My mother was in one before she passed away, so I saw it first-hand.

There's more to life than making money or chasing after a 6-fig paycheck.

 

[ktachiba]

Possibly... But it may mean living in some hellhole; or working 7 days of 10 hrs each; or "pushing the envelope" on legal stuff, which lots of SNFs do. My mother was in one before she passed away, so I saw it first-hand.

There's more to life than making money or chasing after a 6-fig paycheck.

That's true, but I feel that I would enjoy doing this work so much that I wouldn't mind working 50 hour weeks. But yeah, money is definitely not my main motivation for doing PT. I would have stayed in business if it was all about money. But I also recognize how much harder we work than my friends that are in finance, and would like to get paid closer to value.

I am only a pre-PT student so things definitely could change. I could end up only wanting to work 40 hour weeks. Just speculating right now cuz I have a lot of free time lol

 

[ktachiba]

I also like variety...even in other aspects of my life, I love to switch things up. From which types of food I eat, to switching up my exercise routine. That's why I believe I would enjoy working 50 hour weeks in 2 different settings.

Also, I have no family obligations or undergrad debt, and I love to travel, so I could see myself doing traveling PT.

 

[ktachiba]

I think that's too optimistic. I'm planning to do travel therapy or work in a rural setting but I'm not expecting to make more than $75k for 40 hours. If I work an extra eight hours on the weekend I might be able to reach $80-85k.

Yeah good point, $90-$100,000 does seem a little too high now that I think about it.

But I think I read a thread on here that said you should get at least ~90K for being a traveling PT

http://www.therapeuticresources.org...Indeed&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=Indeed

$45-$50 an hour

 

[engmedpt]

Possibly... But it may mean living in some hellhole; or working 7 days of 10 hrs each; or "pushing the envelope" on legal stuff, which lots of SNFs do. My mother was in one before she passed away, so I saw it first-hand.

There's more to life than making money or chasing after a 6-fig paycheck.

We're going into PT....if we didn't think there was more to life than money then we'd be hittin investment banking. These threads are good though. Throw some realism in place of speculative optimism and keep tabs on what to expect. It should definitely be discussed from time to time. With that said. Im done.

 

[NewTestament]

Yeah good point, $90-$100,000 does seem a little too high now that I think about it.

But I think I read a thread on here that said you should get at least ~90K for being a traveling PT/QUOTE]

According to some of the job offers I've seen, that might be true. Just might sure these clinics are patient mills. Make sure you ask the employer what his definition of productivity is. I would still count on $75k pre-tax and without a signing bonus. If you get a bonus and make more than $75k, great!

 

[jjjDPT]

On a different note, there has been a rumor going around my DPT class that the state of Alaska will pay off your student loans if you work there for X many years. Has anybody else heard of this or have found any reliable info?

 

[Watson27]

@jjjDPT

Physical therapists are covered by the SHARP program in Alaska. More info here: http://dhss.alaska.gov/dph/HealthPlanning/Pages/sharp/default.aspx From what I understand, if your employer is part of the program (and matches the amount), you can sign a 3-year contract and receive loan forgiveness.

 

[jjjDPT]

Wow. That would be a great opportunity. Thanks for finding that @Watson27.

 

[engmedpt]

^That is absolutely nuts. If something happens and your loans just get unmanageable, then that program would kill it if you can adjust to that lifestyle. Competition may get rough for people from private schools. I wish there was a way to monitor gov programs easier. Im under the impression (maybe misguided) that people just find odd links here and there for these programs. Any sites in particular I should monitor as I'm going through?

 

[DrEvil518]

When I was doing my clinicals, HealthSouth had some sort of loan forgiveness program. Most of the people who worked there were really excited about paying off their loans. That was about 6 years ago, but there's a good chance they still do it...
hope that helps

 

[amjadjamal]

wt kind of offers are new grad getting?

 

[jblil]

wt kind of offers are new grad getting?

https://dptfinances.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/hello-world/

 

[kellerac]

I'd like to dig this thread up and ask about my options and all of your opinions on such.

I'm probably attending a DPT school at a private institution in the summer, with the 3 year tuition being around $82-85k. I am about $80-90k in debt from my undergrad (bad I know, parents were unable to help, I settled at a PRN $10/hr hospital job for the experience, so not a lot of income). So when I'm finished with school I'll be anywhere from $180 - $200k in debt (CRINGE ).

While this is truly terrible, I have a girlfriend of 3 years who is going to graduate debt-free and work as a teacher (no knock to her, but salary will be on the lower side) immediately. Marriage at this point is a good possibility, so it's worth considering both of our financial situations. She also has a trust fund, and plenty of money in the stock market (Her grandfather founded, and eventually sold, an agriculture business, and helped out his grandchildren).

What does our financial situation look like to you all? I fully intend on living like a college student for a while (cheap apartments, driving 2003 Buick, eating microwaved chicken nuggets), so I have no pressing monetary issues. Once I'm a practicing PT, I also plan on working PRN, in addition to a full time job.

Also, I asked for my girlfriend's permission to share this information. Thanks for any help!