PIC license revoked

[owlegrad]

Hypothetically, what would y'all do if you found out your PIC had his or her pharmacist's license revoked at the beginning of July? If it matters to you the way you found out is that a technician told you. Said pharmacist has been checking orders, taking verbals, ordering controlled substances, and everything else that is expected of every pharmacist.

This happened to me yesterday. I confirmed it on the BOP website - it's true. I was totally stunned, I never would have thought something like this would happen in real life. I don't mind sharing what I did or what has happened so far but first I am really curious what everyone on here would do?

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[Friendly1970]

Do No Harm is my moral compass. We swore to that.

 

[steveysmith54]

If a pharmacist is working without a license and you have knowledge of it, you should report this to BOP... if BOP inspector interviews you and your tech at a later time, you might be asked this. Do you know the reason why the license is inactive? E.g. Forgot to renew or revoked due to something done? By filling orders that were taken verbally by an unlicensed entity is not good for anyone

 

[Digsbe]

If it was revoked they shouldn't be working. They can't be working either. I'd also contact the BOP the minute you find it to protect yourself too. They likely will not like it if you knew they were unlicensed and didnt do anything about them functioning as a pharmacist when you had knowledge that they werent one. I'm surprised the DM or supervisor for the PIC was unaware. If its not TMI I'm curious as to know what was serious enough to necessitate revocation and why they continued working.

 

[owlegrad]

If it was revoked they shouldn't be working. They can't be working either. I'd also contact the BOP the minute you find it to protect yourself too. They likely will not like it if you knew they were unlicensed and didnt do anything about them functioning as a pharmacist when you had knowledge that they werent one. I'm surprised the DM or supervisor for the PIC was unaware. If its not TMI I'm curious as to know what was serious enough to necessitate revocation and why they continued working.

Well it's public information so I guess not TMI. You can read the public info here.

 

[owlegrad]

As for why he continued working, he claims not to have not even known about the final judgement. Apparently the certified letter tracking number shows it was never delivered.

 

[zelman]

Well it's public information so I guess not TMI. You can read the public info here.

Am I reading that right? They lost their license for saying they had a license when they did not have a license? Also, I thought the point of certified mail was that someone had to sign for it...

 

[owlegrad]

Am I reading that right? They lost their license for saying they had a license when they did not have a license? Also, I thought the point of certified mail was that someone had to sign for it...
View attachment 221926

It is confusing. Apparently he had a license but it wasn't "free and clear" when he claimed that it was. My understanding is he had a CE issue that was never cleared up from a previous renewal. I mean you can see he had a license issued in 2015 but I don't understand why they issued it if he was lacking CE from before that. Frankly I am confused about the whole issue.

And he did have to sign for it. He wasn't home to sign for it so they didn't leave it. Apparently they only made one attempt? And now it is just stuck in "In-Transit"? That seems insane to me.

 

[Gombrich12]

How did the tech find this out?

 

[owlegrad]

How did the tech find this out?

It was going around the pharmacy the way any rumor/gossip would. She was told by someone who was told by someone, you know how it goes. It is unknown to me who figured it out initially. It seems unbelievably petty to me that someone would have time to be checking up on licenses, but I guess it's a good thing they did.

 

[steveysmith54]

jeez, loosing your license and livelihood over a CE (hopefully it's temporary). I've read complaints about pharmacists selling meds without RX on CA's BOP website and other things that are far worse. I guess lesson here is to do your CE's kids

 

[zelman]

It was going around the pharmacy the way any rumor/gossip would. She was told by someone who was told by someone, you know how it goes. It is unknown to me who figured it out initially. It seems unbelievably petty to me that someone would have time to be checking up on licenses, but I guess it's a good thing they did.

Walmart actually requires monthly license verifications, so it's not a crazy idea to someone.

 

[zelman]

Hypothetically, what would y'all do if you found out your PIC had his or her pharmacist's license revoked at the beginning of July? If it matters to you the way you found out is that a technician told you. Said pharmacist has been checking orders, taking verbals, ordering controlled substances, and everything else that is expected of every pharmacist.

This happened to me yesterday. I confirmed it on the BOP website - it's true. I was totally stunned, I never would have thought something like this would happen in real life. I don't mind sharing what I did or what has happened so far but first I am really curious what everyone on here would do?

Oh, me to answer the question, I would kick them out of the pharmacy until I could contact the supervisor/owner. Then either the supervisor or myself would contact the board of pharmacy.

 

[owlegrad]

I did inform his boss, the pharmacy director. I actually didn't have the guts to tell her in person so I just printed the BOP website showing the status of his license and left it in her inbox. She either checked the camera or someone saw me do it and told her though cause she knew it was me and asked me how I found out. The rumor was that she knew, but that wasn't the case. As soon as she found out she took him off the schedule and replaced him as the PIC on record. I don't know for a fact that she reported to the board that he had been working but I trust that she did. He wasn't in the pharmacy when this came to light.

 

[Rouelle]

You are in direct knowledge of someone practicing pharmacy without a license. You have to notify the board. Right or wrong on the PIC/postal service/BOP, it doesn't matter. You now know and are legally/morally obligated to notify.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Hypothetically, what would y'all do if you found out your PIC had his or her pharmacist's license revoked at the beginning of July? If it matters to you the way you found out is that a technician told you. Said pharmacist has been checking orders, taking verbals, ordering controlled substances, and everything else that is expected of every pharmacist.

This happened to me yesterday. I confirmed it on the BOP website - it's true. I was totally stunned, I never would have thought something like this would happen in real life. I don't mind sharing what I did or what has happened so far but first I am really curious what everyone on here would do?

You should immediately call the board and submit a complaint

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

You now know and are legally/morally obligated to notify.

 

[ChalupaBatman86]

Take a page from Jared Kushner handbook. You don't recall anything about learning his license was suspended, it was your assistant's fault, you will now submit amended information.


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[Rouelle]

Well, he could always wait a year, then tell the Board that he intentionally withheld the info for a year. The Board's reaction would tell us for sure...

 

[Charcoales]

This is why I try to avoid gossip at all costs and pretend I don't hear anything, makes all these liability concerns a non-issue

 

[confettiflyer]

Quick call to compliance, done. Enforcement isn't my job.


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[pharm B]

I'm surprised you stuck the notice in someone's box versus making a call or sending a message right away. Either way, talk about an awkward scenario.

 

[Bubba98]

Hypothetically, what would y'all do if you found out your PIC had his or her pharmacist's license revoked at the beginning of July? If it matters to you the way you found out is that a technician told you. Said pharmacist has been checking orders, taking verbals, ordering controlled substances, and everything else that is expected of every pharmacist.

This happened to me yesterday. I confirmed it on the BOP website - it's true. I was totally stunned, I never would have thought something like this would happen in real life. I don't mind sharing what I did or what has happened so far but first I am really curious what everyone on here would do?

You were gossiping with a technician about your manager and dug up some dirt. Instead of asking your manager about the issue because you were too scared to inform them about your gossiping and digging you escalated it. You ignored the possibility that it was a technical gray issue being resolved. You justified your behavior by saying that you are ethically obligated to protect yourself from your meddling/gossip/passive aggressive behavior and now you are posting your former manager's and their former boss dirty laundry on the internet...reason #245 why you should be darn sure you want to be a PIC.

 

[PolarPop]

Hopefully this thread doesn't come up in your PIC's google search when she starts trying to figure out how to fix this.

 

[confettiflyer]

I don't get why there's even a discussion about this. You have unlicensed personnel roaming around doing things.

I once forgot to turn in my renewed license to HR and had 2 emails and 3 phone calls TWO WEEKS before expiration.

**** happens, HR/licensing may not be on top of it, drop them a line and go home/watch Netflix.


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[confettiflyer]

And he did have to sign for it. He wasn't home to sign for it so they didn't leave it. Apparently they only made one attempt? And now it is just stuck in "In-Transit"? That seems insane to me.

It's sitting at the post office, surprised it hasn't been returned to sender at this point (maybe it did, USPS sucks at updating). I've been sent stuff certified and my laziness resulted in two attempts.


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[josh6718]

Hypothetically, what would y'all do if you found out your PIC had his or her pharmacist's license revoked at the beginning of July? If it matters to you the way you found out is that a technician told you. Said pharmacist has been checking orders, taking verbals, ordering controlled substances, and everything else that is expected of every pharmacist.

This happened to me yesterday. I confirmed it on the BOP website - it's true. I was totally stunned, I never would have thought something like this would happen in real life. I don't mind sharing what I did or what has happened so far but first I am really curious what everyone on here would do?

As I've been studying for the FL MPJE quite a bit, one thing I discovered is that for Florida, you can actually get disciplined for not reporting someone for a violation. In this case, I would immediately notify the board and not take a chance in possible discipline which could include a $1,500 fine for and an additional 12 hours of required CE on Laws & Rules.

 

[owlegrad]

I'm surprised you stuck the notice in someone's box versus making a call or sending a message right away. Either way, talk about an awkward scenario.

I probably should have called but honestly what is the protocol for asking your boss if his license is really revoked? It felt too awkward, hence why I tried to keep it anonymous.

 

[confettiflyer]

As I've been studying for the FL MPJE quite a bit, one thing I discovered is that for Florida, you can actually get disciplined for not reporting someone for a violation. In this case, I would immediately notify the board and not take a chance in possible discipline which could include a $1,500 fine for and an additional 12 hours of required CE on Laws & Rules.

Deep incentive to never ask anyone anything!


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[owlegrad]

You were gossiping with a technician about your manager and dug up some dirt. Instead of asking your manager about the issue because you were too scared to inform them about your gossiping and digging you escalated it. You ignored the possibility that it was a technical gray issue being resolved. You justified your behavior by saying that you are ethically obligated to protect yourself from your meddling/gossip/passive aggressive behavior and now you are posting your former manager's and their former boss dirty laundry on the internet...reason #245 why you should be darn sure you want to be a PIC.

Interesting perspective. This isn't who is sleeping with who, this is a serious legal issue. I did consider not posting this on SDN because it really does suck for him, but honestly it is public info and I was very curious what y'all would have to say about it. I wouldn't call having a revoked license "dirty laundry".

There are people at work who think I should have minded my own business and not done anything about it though, so I appreciate you expressing this viewpoint. Actually I was the only one who even went to the director about it, even other pharmacists were setting on it. I am actually surprised by the number of people here who would go straight to HR and the BOP, I consider those options much more serious than just going to the pharmacy director.

 

[zelman]

Interesting perspective. This isn't who is sleeping with who, this is a serious legal issue. I did consider not posting this on SDN because it really does suck for him, but honestly it is public info and I was very curious what y'all would have to say about it. I wouldn't call having a revoked license "dirty laundry".

There are people at work who think I should have minded my own business and not done anything about it though, so I appreciate you expressing this viewpoint. Actually I was the only one who even went to the director about it, even other pharmacists were setting on it. I am actually surprised by the number of people here who would go straight to HR and the BOP, I consider those options much more serious than just going to the pharmacy director.

Someone needs to go the BOP. If they get a complaint during the time they were unlicensed your team is all in jeopardy. Make sure it happened.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Hopefully this thread doesn't come up in your PIC's google search when she starts trying to figure out how to fix this.

That's... That's not how Google works.

Even if they, for some reason, search for the URL of their disciplinary pdf, it won't pop.

 

[smercer]

Interesting perspective. This isn't who is sleeping with who, this is a serious legal issue. I did consider not posting this on SDN because it really does suck for him, but honestly it is public info and I was very curious what y'all would have to say about it. I wouldn't call having a revoked license "dirty laundry".

There are people at work who think I should have minded my own business and not done anything about it though, so I appreciate you expressing this viewpoint. Actually I was the only one who even went to the director about it, even other pharmacists were setting on it. I am actually surprised by the number of people here who would go straight to HR and the BOP, I consider those options much more serious than just going to the pharmacy director.

You have to CYA. You can never be sure who will or will not have your back in any situation and I would not want to have to ever think that I lost my license or got reprimanded because I did not escalate any offense.

 

[PolarPop]

That's... That's not how Google works.

Even if they, for some reason, search for the URL of their disciplinary pdf, it won't pop.

Yes but SDN forum will pop in a general search for losing a pharmacist's license. It's only one click after that to the most recent topics.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Yes but SDN forum will pop in a general search for losing a pharmacist's license. It's only one click after that to the most recent topics.

 

[BidingMyTime]

That's... That's not how Google works.

Even if they, for some reason, search for the URL of their disciplinary pdf, it won't pop.

Many times I will read a discussion on here about something, I will then google search to get more information on the matter being discussed, and more often than not, the SDN thread I was just reading will be at the top of the list. Now, granted google individualizes search engines and stuff, but SDN threads do show up on google in very short time, and anyone can view them. (side note, my SO had looked up a subject once and pulled up a SDN thread, he was telling me about it, I didn't remember the thread, but looking through, I found I had replied to it. My SO had no idea I read the board, much less replied. This was on his computer, which I've never used, so it's not like google was pulling up threads based on my history.)

So yeah, I would believe Owl's boss could potential find this thread if he went searching.

As for his bosses dilemma, what a sucky situation. Why did your boss alter the document so it would appear his license was "free and clear", when it wasn't (going on the assumption that is true.)....it seems like that board viewed that as a serious ethical matter, probably wondering what else he would alter.

What does a revoked license mean in regards to his future? Can he get his license reinstated at some point?

 

[owlegrad]

Many times I will read a discussion on here about something, I will then google search to get more information on the matter being discussed, and more often than not, the SDN thread I was just reading will be at the top of the list. Now, granted google individualizes search engines and stuff, but SDN threads do show up on google in very short time, and anyone can view them. (side note, my SO had looked up a subject once and pulled up a SDN thread, he was telling me about it, I didn't remember the thread, but looking through, I found I had replied to it. My SO had no idea I read the board, much less replied. This was on his computer, which I've never used, so it's not like google was pulling up threads based on my history.)

So yeah, I would believe Owl's boss could potential find this thread if he went searching.

As for his bosses dilemma, what a sucky situation. Why did your boss alter the document so it would appear his license was "free and clear", when it wasn't (going on the assumption that is true.)....it seems like that board viewed that as a serious ethical matter, probably wondering what else he would alter.

What does a revoked license mean in regards to his future? Can he get his license reinstated at some point?

He has an appointment to meet with the board at the next meeting. Hopefully it goes well. *fingers crossed*

 

[lord999]

What does a revoked license mean in regards to his future? Can he get his license reinstated at some point?

For the NPDB, a "suspension" is a status where a practitioner cannot practice but with conditions and the holder retains due process set by statute and regulation to reconsider the status. An indefinite suspension means that a practitioner cannot practice without reapply to the Board. This is different than a revocation in that the Board still considers the license redeemable, and under the conditions set in the suspension, the suspended license holder may reapply for reentry into practice (and probably under conditions). Suspension basically means that you can't work, but someday if you clean up, we are willing to hear you. The Board is obligated though to allow a rehearing at some determinant point to consider a change in status (although that also could be revocation!).

A revocation is a status where if you cross that line, the practitioner may not practice, but unlike a suspension, the Board is not obligated to set any conditions on a return to practice NOR even hear the revocation appeal petition at all. The holder has no further right to a reconsideration and is a permanent status that may not be contested in the future. If a license is reactivated from a revocation status, the Board actually has to first determine whether or not they want to hear the appeal (which is a positive vote, meaning that if no one moves, the revocation status remains), then, they can consider whether or not to take action on the license, but again, they do not have to.

The informal way is that in a suspension, you still have the benefit of the doubt to due process, but in revocation, you have no benefit of the doubt, and you have no access to due process unless the Board feels merciful in your case.

There's a lot of weird language around "stayed revocations" and "probation with a 30 day practice hold" which go into grey territory, but a full revocation is a permanent status in the way no others can be. What's interesting is the licenses that are initially denied, and what happens to them years later under appeal.

 

[Apotheker2015]

Quick call to compliance, done. Enforcement isn't my job.


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I second your motion. Handle it like a Sunday confession. Call the ethics line and spell everything out. That way it is documented. Look confused. Works in the midwest.

 

[owlegrad]

I forgot to give an update. He got his license back. He has to pay a steep fine and do lots of extra law and ethic CE but he is back to work.