pissed off????

[andwhat]

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anyone else feel that the amount of scutwork handed down to medical students is a little unreasonable?? I am doing Peds in a clinic.. and there is no residency program.. and only attendings that expect the MEDICAL STUDENTS to perform duties that are expected by residents.. how do I know that? I am consulting with friends that are doing Peds residencies... and this sucks.. not only do they boss you around.. ever damn patient encounter counts as a f***** presentation?! like every time that I work up a patient.. the attending is sometimes like 'nice presentation' more like the job that I am doing as a favor for you to help make youre life easier??? where does this come off as some learning experience.. thats what bad rotations are all about man.. bad teaching.. and mad scut work... bstrds.. anyone else feel the same way? well I am halfway through this year.. been nothing but honors so far.. and now they are only allowing the hard lady to do Peds evals.. so much for honors..😡

 

[Blade28]

I don't understand...you're seeing a lot of patients and having to present each and every one? Isn't that normal?

 

[ckent]

😕

Yeah, I really don't understand your complaints either. Every patient encounter you see should result in you presenting the patient to somebody, whether it be a resident or attending. And it's not scut work, the attendings oftentimes know the patient better then you do and you are actually just slowing down the attending by being there and seeing the patient. I think that most med students would be happy if they felt like they were being treated like a resident in terms of responsibility.

 

[andwhat]

yes I understand.. sounds exciting doesnt it? like I would LOVE in Surgery when there was no resident and I got to bovee.. or throw down a vertical mattress.. guys.. my point here is.. that no.. sometimes the attending does not even see the patient at all.. just makes me see the patient , and then asks me what I think.. and then what did this patient take last time .. and then the attending writes a prescription, and get this.. I hand the prescription to the patient - and then get this one... THE ATTENDING NEVER EVEN SEES THE PATIENT! now.. is this a rotation or a residency? you know I understand that attitude.. like you as a student would love to present and take care of patients like an intern.. but man not Pediatrics.. and not 20 patients in 8 hours.. first of all its exhausting.. and then I have to study for my boards.. trust me.. I have had 18 hour days during Surgery.. and that doesnt amount to a day in Peds.. except weekend call in Surg was hectic. but you learned alot and it was fun.. this sucks.. I am sorry.. as a student you yearn for opportunities like this.. but to assume a residents responsiblities and handle criticism at the same time.. well that sucks... its not fun I am sorry.. and yes I agree to an extent yes.. presenting a patient obviously is presenting.. but not when you are writing the entire note.. and handling the patient entirely on youre own.. sounds exciting right??? sure! is it exciting when you do it day in and day out? hell no... just my opinion... nope I am definitely not slowing down the attendings.. I am a walking and talking functioning them sometimes .. and no teaching..

 

[Starflyr]

Hmmm...I guess I understand. I actually liked it when that happened to me in my Peds rotation. Of course, I want to go into Peds, so...

But Dude, that ain't scutwork. Scutwork is when the residents send you out to buy food for the whole team and dont reimburse you. Scutwork is when your resident assigned responsibilities for the afternoon are: "Go entertain this 10 year old until her Mom gets back, she's driving the nurses and us (the residents) nuts!" when this kid isnt even your patient, and you had been doing actual work like following up on labs or whatever to get ready for afternoon rounds.

Just regard it as a learning experience. And for pity's sake, so what if you get ONE high pass or pass? Who cares? I guaruntee that a residency director probably wont, if its one incident.

AND it might turn out better than you think. Some attendings are purpousfully harder than h*ll on med students to see how they perform under pressure.

Star

 

[DocWagner]

And your pediatric rotation is...one month. My guess is that you will survive and actually take away alot of independence and knowledge that others rarely get to experience.
Take a breath, count
1...
2...
3... Quit bitching. It is all just starting my friend, grin and take it. Everyone has their sob stories, and yours is no different than many. For half of my rotations as a student, there were no residents and the sky did not fall.

 

[edmadison]

I agree that what you describe is not scutwork. I will note one thing. If your precepter is billing for patients that he or she is not seeing then that fraud.

Ed

 

[DOtobe]

Agreeing with the others...

Your preceptor having you see patients is NOT scutwork. Seeing patients is part of being a third year. On my last rotation (medicine) I was with some preceptors who did not let me do anything, I was pretty much their shadow. I would have done anything to see patients on my own on that rotation! And presenting patients is part of doing a rotation. We will be presenting patients to attendings until we are done with residency.

It does kind of suck that the attending doesn't see the patient on his own. Does he even stick his head in the door just to say hello? But I actually think it would be kind of cool to have that much responsibility...

I guess your whole complaint has left me 😕

 

[gwyn779]

Again, seeing patients is not scutwork. If your attending isn't seeing them at all, that's something worth complaining about, but too much responsibility is the opposite of scutwork. I also don't see how you wouldn't expect to present every patient you see.

 

[MacTavish]

No...scutwork is when your resident has to do a 45 minute case presentation at grand rounds and he makes you do all of the research and type up the presentation so that all he has to do is read it verbatim.

This happened to me..some damn FMG who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the wall tried to make me do this. I reported it to the clerkship director and I think this guy is gonna get reprimanded (hopefully fired).

 

[Galaxian]

dude, you should be stoked that they are giving you so much independence. At least they aren't making you run out and buy them a sandwich! Let's face it, third year sucks because you're every one's whipping boy, and no one gives a damn. Its a year long survival game, and you're moaning because they aren't treating you like an R3, and your honors streak might be broken? I'm playing the world's smallest violin...

 

[huktonfonix]

Seriously didn't need to know how small your violin is. But, third year did suck, but it does for everyone. Suck it up and don't complain about responsibility.

 

[Yosh]

I am loving 3rd year....my worst day on rotations is better than my best day from MSI and MSII.....

I love being in the hospital and seeing patients...thank GOD this is more what I will be doing vs. sitting in a classroom.

 

[DOtobe]

Originally posted by Yosh
I am loving 3rd year....my worst day on rotations is better than my best day from MSI and MSII.....

I love being in the hospital and seeing patients...thank GOD this is more what I will be doing vs. sitting in a classroom.

I agree completely!

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by Yosh
I am loving 3rd year....my worst day on rotations is better than my best day from MSI and MSII.....

I love being in the hospital and seeing patients...thank GOD this is more what I will be doing vs. sitting in a classroom.

Amen! I pretty much hated my first two years. Now...most days...I can say that I enjoy what I do. Even hitting the books now is different...instead of studying in order to answer multiple choice exam questions, now I'm studying to learn more about the diseases my patients have, their treatment, etc. It puts everything into an entirely new prospective.

 

[andwhat]

so it seems as if everyone is anti - me here .. its all good you know 🙂
ok so like its ok for attendings to make us do extra work.. fine then I will agree.. but I wont lie.. I dont like doing additional work that I am not entitled to.. one thing I will say is this though.. the more patients you round and learn about management and screening and treatment, the higher youre step II score and probably much easier it will be to study for.. well most medical schools including mine have a clinical exam necessary for furthering medical education.. so I look at it as practice for that too.. and not to mention the step II Clinical Skills exam. instituted this summer. great practice for that as well.. but guys.. cummon.. free labor when you want to study more... ok whatever.. I see the overwhelming response here.. so I wont bother.. nevertheless.. want to thank everyone for the perspective.. it should help get me through my days.. although I do prefer the shadowing approach, as opposed to the do it all yourself and youre bound to drizown and make mistakes approach.. where you are bound to make mistakes as a student and get criticized unnecessarily.. ok so lemme jump to the next new semitopic! yes its part of the learning experience to make mistakes and get criticized for them...

 

[PainDr]

I still don't understand what you mean when you say your attending is giving you "extra work"? As a student your job is to learn and the best way to do that is by active learning...hands on...you can't do that by shadowing! Shadowing is for PREMEDS you twit! As a resident, I don't really like teaching, but guess what...it is PART OF MY JOB! The vast majority of students only slow me down and add to my work load so if you think you're really helping you're delusional. Yea, you may help with getting labs or hunting down films, but if you do save me time, then I give it back with teaching. GROW UP!

 

[andwhat]

Thank you for youre perspective!. Please explain a few things here however. How is it that I am slowing down a system?? So lets analyze this..How am I slowing down an attending if the attending does not even see the patient? Can you please explain that to me "twit"? I did not intend for this to be a flaming type of discussion.. So anyways.. My point was not to offend anyone, and that experience is over with that rotation anyways... So back to you Dr Pain.. Let me explain it to you once again. Of course I understand the situation where students slow down the system, hell I can completely agree and understand that.. A student reports the patient to the resident, resident reports to the attending, and the student gives their perspective.. and then finally the attending sees the patient..ok.. monotonous but educational.. Now LISTEN UP how am I slowing down anything if I see the patient, report it to the attending, the attending writes up the script, I finish up the paperwork, and then I explain everything to the patient, give the patient the script, and then the patient walks out..attending never sees the patient.. So anyways looking back at it now.. I am really starting to appreciate the stepped up role that I was given, and I will admit I was mentally unprepared for such responsibilities the first or second day , but it was my pleasure to help out.. as I am sure any MS3 or MS4 would agree.. I am really looking forward to as much hands on experience as I can get on my away rotation.. that will be alot of fun.. I really overreacted here .. and do apologize for the misunderstanding. I really dont see the advantage to a discussion amidst insults and flaming.. a little immature dont you think? Nevertheless thank you for youre perspective.

 

[edmadison]

What you are experiencing is not scut, its merely a crappy situation. I feel for you. Your precepter is lazy, unethical and most likely criminal. He/she will get stuck some day. Just buck it up and wait for the next rotation.

Ed

 

[andwhat]

thanks man. Appreciate that. Almost over though.

 

[cjw0918]

Andwhat, I hear what you are saying. I feel that I am excessively dumped on in my current rotation as well. But as everyone has pointed out, it WILL end. I have only two more weeks left. What
is funny is that we actually have residents- they just take our work and pass it off as their own. I feel slighted. I worked my ass off on medicine but didn't feel this way at all b/c the residents and the attendings worked hard too. I feel like the residents I have now are the laziest people alive. They arrive later and leave earlier a lot too. But enough whining- it will be over soon! Cheers!

 

[guttata]

Hey relax... but students almost always slow down clinics, regardless of how much work students do.

Don't you think the attending (with all of his years of experience) is more efficient than a third or fourth year med student? His H+P will be more focused and thus, shorter. He will know his patients better (simply from past exams/checkups). He will be more proficient at dealing with "talkative" patients. Hell, as a fourth year, I worked up almost half of the patients at a busy family medicine clinic. But, I'm sure I asked some pretty irrelevant questions because of my limited diagnostic differential knowledge. And, I'd be lying if I said that my exam was superior to my attending's (except for the ocular exam). If it weren't for me, he would probably finish clinic 1-2 hours earlier. But, he was committed to teaching - and, it showed.

Obviously, this post was not meant to offend.

 

[avendesora]

Originally posted by Starflyr


But Dude, that ain't scutwork. Scutwork is when the residents send you out to buy food for the whole team and dont reimburse you. Scutwork is when your resident assigned responsibilities for the afternoon are: "Go entertain this 10 year old until her Mom gets back, she's driving the nurses and us (the residents) nuts!" when this kid isnt even your patient, and you had been doing actual work like following up on labs or whatever to get ready for afternoon rounds.

Star

Or how about "watching" a resident's children while on call?

To the O.P. --
Try this take on it: if the attending is letting you see patients on your own, s/he obviously thinks you're doing a good enough job to be entrusted with that responsibility (or is incompetent).

I will agree with those that say, though, that this is practicing medicine w/o a liscence and is a serious ethics violation. I would wait till your grade is secure and then take it to the clerkship director, or higher if you get no action there.