plan B

[museabuse]

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Can someone explain to me why a pharmacist would morally be against plan B but not morally be against regular birth control?
I know regular BC works by preventing ovulation and fertilization but sometimes it can allow for fertilization and prevent implantation too.

If I am wrong then correct me. If this has been discussed before then sorry.

 

[Caverject]

Because it also prevents implantation, on top of preventing ovulation. If life begins at conception, you are preventing "life" from implanting itself in the uterus. This is why a small minority of pharmacists are against dispensing Plan B.

 

[museabuse]

Because it also prevents implantation, on top of preventing ovulation. If life begins at conception, you are preventing "life" from implanting itself in the uterus. This is why a small minority of pharmacists are against dispensing Plan B.

So are you saying that regular B/C doesn't prevent implantation if fertilization happens. People can get pregnant on BC. So I am wondering how many have fertilization and no implantation due to the BC hormone changes?

 

[Caverject]

No, I am not saying that. Any drug that contains levonorgestrel has a slight possibility to prevent implantation. However, it's more seen in Plan B because people that take Plan B are usually not on a birth control pill. To answer your second question, it's very small.

 

[museabuse]

No, I am not saying that. Any drug that contains levonorgestrel has a slight possibility to prevent implantation. However, it's more seen in Plan B because people that take Plan B are usually not on a birth control pill. To answer your second question, it's very small.

Its small but it still can happen. Its like saying it ok for john to shoot and kill one worker but it is not ok for john to shoot and kill one hundred workers. Most people would say morally both are wrong.
So again why would some be ok with regular BC and not ok with Plan B?

 

[Caverject]

Its small but it still can happen. Its like saying it ok for john to shoot and kill one worker but it is not ok for john to shoot and kill one hundred workers. Most people would say morally both are wrong.
So again why would some be ok with regular BC and not ok with Plan B?

Most don't realize the hypocritical nature. The ones that do say that people that are prescribed Plan B are irresponsible.

 

[bananaface]

There isn't a bit of difference in the MOAs. People just like to be all "you play you pay" after the fact. Same MOAs as breastfeeding too. Damn breastfeeding womene not getting knocked up! 😡 What is their problem!

 

[DHG]

If life begins at fertilzation, not implantation in the uterus, then I guess we should just let those poor women with ectopic pregnancies just die then, since you can't go in and remove that zygote, because that would be murder... That must just be God's punishment for such women. 🙄


Freakin' hypocrites.

 

[bananaface]

Although prevention of implantation is a "potential MOA", there is no difference in the rate of implantation observed between those taking Plan B and those who have not. It's a theoretical possibility that isn't visible upon study. Some people aren't willing to take a chance that they might cause a fertilized egg not to implant, no matter how miniscule the real probibility. I guess if you think your soul is in danger because of that chance, you ought not to dispense.

 

[Caverject]

Although prevention of implantation is a "potential MOA", there is no difference in the rate of implantation observed between those taking Plan B and those who have not. It's a theoretical possibility that isn't visible upon study. Some people aren't willing to take a chance that they might cause a fertilized egg not to implant, no matter how miniscule the real probibility. I guess if you think your soul is in danger because of that chance, you ought not to dispense.

For MOA determination, it depends on what study you look at. I have seen several studies that indicate it and studies that don't. It all depends on how you want to skew the information to your personal beliefs.

 

[museabuse]

I guess if you think your soul is in danger because of that chance, you ought not to dispense.

If someone thinks their soul is in danger because they dispense birth control then they really need to get a new career. These pharmacists that refuse to dispense based on morality really should have chosen another career where they can practice their religion and force it upon others in their work place, maybe a permanent alter boy or something like that.

Or at least go into nuclear pharmacy; don’t practice in the community setting. If you are going to practice in the community setting you have to understand that the community is made up of people of all different races, backgrounds, morals, socioeconomic levels, sexual orientations, and religions. You have to understand to respect these differences and that it is not your job to judge people or force your beliefs on other people, it is your job to help them. If you can’t understand this then you do not belong in health care.

 

[bananaface]

If someone thinks their soul is in danger because they dispense birth control then they really need to get a new career. These pharmacists that refuse to dispense based on morality really should have chosen another career where they can practice their religion and force it upon others in their work place, maybe a permanent alter boy or something like that.

Or at least go into nuclear pharmacy; don’t practice in the community setting. If you are going to practice in the community setting you have to understand that the community is made up of people of all different races, backgrounds, morals, socioeconomic levels, sexual orientations, and religions. You have to understand to respect these differences and that it is not your job to judge people or force your beliefs on other people, it is your job to help them. If you can’t understand this then you do not belong in health care.

Many of the people who don't want to dispense Plan-B have been in pharmacy before the existance of the regimen. You can't just kick people out of a pharmacy because a bunch of noobs on the scene have a different idea of how to run the professon. Change has to be made through attrition. They do need to refer, though.

 

[museabuse]

They do need to refer, though.

First of all I don't understand how you can dispense BC and then be against plan B, that is hypocrisy.
Also if you morally object to dispensing plan B because you don’t want to be a part in ending a fertilized eggs life then why would you then tell them exactly where to go to do it. Aren’t you still helping them get plan B, which is what the pharmacists is morally against to begin with?
I would think someone who morally objects would want to refer them to the church for counseling.

Giving pharmacist the right to morally object opens up a bunch of doors that don’t need to be opened. It should be illegal to refuse to dispense based on morality.

Should it be ok to morally object to giving a single guy Viagra when you morally think sex is only for marriage?
Should it be ok to morally object to giving an older guy Viagra when he has a wife in his 60s and you morally believe sex is only for procreation?
Should it be ok to morally object to giving out HIV meds to a homosexual because you morally think homosexuality is wrong?
Should it be ok to morally object to giving out psych meds because you morally agree with Tom Cruise?
Should it be ok to morally object to dispensing 2 grams of zithromax because you think the sexually transmitted disease is God’s punishment for promiscuity?
Should you morally object to giving a fat guy his diabetes medication because you saw him at Krispy Kreme eating a dozen doughnuts an hour before?

This morally refusing to dispense is ridiculous.

Plan B is not an abortion pill, I don’t see the differences between plan B and BC, it is just a oops I should have been on BC to begin with pill. They both can stop a fertilized egg from implantation.

 

[bananaface]

First of all I don't understand how you can dispense BC and then be against plan B, that is hypocrisy.
Also if you morally object to dispensing plan B because you don’t want to be a part in ending a fertilized eggs life then why would you then tell them exactly where to go to do it. Aren’t you still helping them get plan B, which is what the pharmacists is morally against to begin with?
I would think someone who morally objects would want to refer them to the church for counseling.

Giving pharmacist the right to morally object opens up a bunch of doors that don’t need to be opened. It should be illegal to refuse to dispense based on morality.

Should it be ok to morally object to giving a single guy Viagra when you morally think sex is only for marriage?
Should it be ok to morally object to giving an older guy Viagra when he has a wife in his 60s and you morally believe sex is only for procreation?
Should it be ok to morally object to giving out HIV meds to a homosexual because you morally think homosexuality is wrong?
Should it be ok to morally object to giving out psych meds because you morally agree with Tom Cruise?
Should it be ok to morally object to dispensing 2 grams of zithromax because you think the sexually transmitted disease is God’s punishment for promiscuity?
Should you morally object to giving a fat guy his diabetes medication because you saw him at Krispy Kreme eating a dozen doughnuts an hour before?

This morally refusing to dispense is ridiculous.

Plan B is not an abortion pill, I don’t see the differences between plan B and BC, it is just a oops I should have been on BC to begin with pill. They both can stop a fertilized egg from implantation.

Why are you trying to attack me? I'm certified to dispense ECP in my state.

Just because I understand the other side does not mean I am on the other side.

 

[bananaface]

I would think someone who morally objects would want to refer them to the church for counseling.

Some pharmacist got sued for that and lost.

 

[museabuse]

Why are you trying to attack me? I'm certified to dispense ECP in my state.

Just because I understand the other side does not mean I am on the other side.

I am not attacking you. When I say you I don't mean you i mean a pharmacist who is refusing based on morality.

THis whole I am better and more moral than you attitude really rubs me the wrong way and has no place in healthcare. Pharmacists always joke about doctors being God and having an ego, how do you think the public views us when we stand on the box and say to the patient "I do not fill plan B I am way to moral for that and I think you are a sinner and a murderer!"

We are here to serve the public and if the law says a prescription is legal then we should fill it and leave morality out of the equation. If you don't like that then try and change the laws to make the drug illegal. I don't agree with every law on the book but I live in america and follow the american laws.

The laws saying we can object to a prescription based on morality leave the door open to the situations I described in my previous post, If you want religious morality to govern you and everyone else then go to a country like Iran and be a pharmacist.

I don't understand the other side of the issue the other side to me seems so judging, hypocritical, power abusing, egotistical, and mean. Those traits don't seem very christian to me.

 

[bananaface]

I am not attacking you. When I say you I don't mean you i mean a pharmacist who is refusing based on morality.

THis whole I am better and more moral than you attitude really rubs me the wrong way and has no place in healthcare. Pharmacists always joke about doctors being God and having an ego, how do you think the public views us when we stand on the box and say to the patient "I do not fill plan B I am way to moral for that and I think you are a sinner and a murderer!"

We are here to serve the public and if the law says a prescription is legal then we should fill it and leave morality out of the equation. If you don't like that then try and change the laws to make the drug illegal. I don't agree with every law on the book but I live in america and follow the american laws.

The laws saying we can object to a prescription based on morality leave the door open to the situations I described in my previous post, If you want religious morality to govern you and everyone else then go to a country like Iran and be a pharmacist.

I don't understand the other side of the issue the other side to me seems so judging, hypocritical, power abusing, egotistical, and mean. Those traits don't seem very christian to me.

The "I'm better than you" attitude is just as prevalent on the pro-dispensing side of the fence, in my observation.

Do you think pharmacists should be required to dispense mifepristone for the purpose of inducing abortion? How about suicide meds (legal in OR)?

 

[museabuse]

The "I'm better than you" attitude is just as prevalent on the pro-dispensing side of the fence, in my observation.

Do you think pharmacists should be required to dispense mifepristone for the purpose of inducing abortion? How about suicide meds (legal in OR)?

Damn girl... sometimes I think you disagree just to disagree. I am just talking about plan B here... your taking it up a notch.

 

[ultracet]

Damn girl... sometimes I think you disagree just to disagree. I am just talking about plan B here... your taking it up a notch.

no you were talking about moral objections.

bananaface just pointed out two other instances that someone may object on moral grounds.

you perhaps don't want your whole "shouldn't object to filling b/c of moral reasons" to be all reaching. but honestly that is what it would mean if it was illegal.

 

[bananaface]

bbmuffin put that very well.

The consequences of giving up our discretion have the potential to be enormous. Most people take sides without exploring all of the relevant issues. It's unfortunate.

 

[museabuse]

bbmuffin put that very well.

The consequences of giving up our discretion have the potential to be enormous. Most people take sides without exploring all of the relevant issues. It's unfortunate.

I can see your point... I do feel there is a difference between an abortion pill, suicide pill and plan b.
I don't see a difference between plan B and regular birth control. If your going to be against plan B then be against birth control too. Don't pick and choose because that is hipocritical. Then good luck finding a job if you refuse to dispense birth control unless you work for an independent chain called Morality RX.

 

[bananaface]

I can see your point... I do feel there is a difference between an abortion pill, suicide pill and plan b.
I don't see a difference between plan B and regular birth control. If your going to be against plan B then be against birth control too. Don't pick and choose because that is hipocritical. Then good luck finding a job if you refuse to dispense birth control unless you work for an independent chain called Morality RX.

Sadly, "Morality Rx" would probably fare quite well in some areas.

 

[crying moo]

Should it be ok to morally object to giving a single guy Viagra when you morally think sex is only for marriage?
Should it be ok to morally object to giving an older guy Viagra when he has a wife in his 60s and you morally believe sex is only for procreation?

I would love to try that one day and have a camera on hand for the reaction. Maybe someone could set that up Punk'd style and make a documentary. There would be outrage. Refusing an Rx for moral grounds would be history if it hindered male promiscuity.

Heheh I can picture it now, "Sorry sir I can't fill this Viagra for you because you're just nasty and I can't handle the thought of what you'll do with this medication....haha you're on candid camera!!!"

 

[bananaface]

I filled Viagra for an AIDS patient, as a tech.

 

[pharmaz88]

I filled Viagra for an AIDS patient, as a tech.

I'm finding it easy to possibly misinterpret your intentions for this reply.

I hope you're not saying it's a bad thing for someone with AIDS to still be sexually active. Maybe his wife (or domestic partner) is also HIV+. ...or maybe not, but they use barrier protection and deem the risk acceptable to maintaining a certain level of intimacy.

...of course, if it was a young guy just slutting around (like MuseAbuse does, sans the HIV), then that would be messed-up.

 

[museabuse]

...of course, if it was a young guy just slutting around (like MuseAbuse does, .

Dude did you have to go there! I guess my name doesn't help...
Since caverject was taken, it was a toss up between
viagraboy
levitralad
captaincialis
enzytedelight
museabuse

Shouldn't you be at home? Isn't your CPR dummy waiting for you? 15 pumps and 2 blows? 😍

 

[pharmaz88]

enzytedelight

that's the best handle ever!

Shouldn't you be at home? Isn't your CPR dummy waiting for you? 15 pumps and 2 blows? 😍

Make fun all you want, but you know you can't resist this.

 

[bananaface]

I'm finding it easy to possibly misinterpret your intentions for this reply.

I hope you're not saying it's a bad thing for someone with AIDS to still be sexually active. Maybe his wife (or domestic partner) is also HIV+. ...or maybe not, but they use barrier protection and deem the risk acceptable to maintaining a certain level of intimacy.

...of course, if it was a young guy just slutting around (like MuseAbuse does, sans the HIV), then that would be messed-up.

Some people do think it's immoral to dispense Viagra to an AIDS patient. I'm just full of examples. 😉

 

[ChemAngel]

As for the BC versus plan B and why pharmacist don't mind one but not the other....I can answer that.


Because not everyone that is on BC is sexually active. Some use it because their hormones are out of wack. But plan B only has one purpose, to extinguish pregnancy. So sometimes you feel better about yourself thinking that maybe they are using BC for another purpose than to end pregnancy.

Just like dispensing viagra to an aids patient. You don't know who is the partner. You hope that the partner is well aware of the sitution and has agreed regardless...and you get confort in thinking that way....as oppose to the possibility that perhaps they are using it without telling someone they have aids.


As pharmacists, we do have a right to refuse a Rx. We are just trying to look at one particular incident because some people don't share that same belief...so their is controversy....but pharmacist do it all the time.

Someone with breath like alcohol has an Rx for Tylenol #3 and is willing to pay cash for it....I'm often told by the pharmacist to refuse them on moral grounds.

The only difference is that some people don't agree with the pro-life look so all of the sudden it is an issue.

 

[bananaface]

Because not everyone that is on BC is sexually active. Some use it because their hormones are out of wack. But plan B only has one purpose, to extinguish pregnancy. So sometimes you feel better about yourself thinking that maybe they are using BC for another purpose than to end pregnancy.

What school do they teach this at? 😕

Plan B = levonorgestrel = contraceptive = prevents pregnancy

RU486 = Mifeprex = mifepristone = abortifacient = ends pregnancy

Are you thinking of mifepristone?

 

[ChemAngel]

What school do they teach this at? 😕

Plan B = levonorgestrel = contraceptive = prevents pregnancy

RU486 = Mifeprex = mifepristone = abortifacient = ends pregnancy

Are you thinking of mifepristone?

oh, I'm sorry....am I incorrect? I haven't studied it yet, I just had a patient once have an RX for "plan B" and when I asked the pharmacist what it was....they said it was to terminate pregnancy. Is this not the same "plan B"?

when I looked online the definition was

"What is Plan B?
Plan B is an emergency contraceptive that can be used to prevent pregnancy following unprotected intercourse or a known or suspected contraceptive failure (i.e., a broken condom)."


I was just under the assumption that emergency contraceptive means that they feel that they probably ended up pregnant.


actually I'm curious.... this "mifepristone" , what is the max amount of months the female needs to be before they
can no longer give this medication

 

[ultracet]

I was just under the assumption that emergency contraceptive means that they feel that they probably ended up pregnant.

this to me is a major problem

it is a HUGE misconception that needs to be corrected

i can't honestly think that pharmacists who have done their research and have a lick of sense morally objecting to plan B.

You only have 72 hours with plan B.

"feeling" pregnant after 72 hours?

i guess they are a whole not more intuned than most.



as far as mifepristone..... that is an abortifacient... that is not available at most pharmacies in AL you have to do it in a doctor's office or something along those lines. so typcially its not an issue.

 

[Caverject]

As for the BC versus plan B and why pharmacist don't mind one but not the other....I can answer that.

But plan B only has one purpose, to extinguish pregnancy. So sometimes you feel better about yourself thinking that maybe they are using BC for another purpose than to end pregnancy.

What the hell is wrong with you? No, it does NOT extinguish pregnancy. It PREVENTS pregnancy. If it turns out that you are pregnany while taking this drug, guess what happens? Nothing!
This drug does not effect an established pregnancy and will not harm the zygote.

oh, I'm sorry....am I incorrect? I haven't studied it yet,

Then don't answer the question and act like you know what you're talking about. Imagine if you did that on a drug that could kill somebody!

 

[Caverject]

abortifacient

BB has mad spelling skillz....impressive 😉

 

[ultracet]

BB has mad spelling skillz....impressive 😉

if i spelled that correctly....


apparently its the smaller words (and drug names) that i use more often that i am inept with.

 

[bananaface]

this to me is a major problem

it is a HUGE misconception that needs to be corrected

i can't honestly think that pharmacists who have done their research and have a lick of sense morally objecting to plan B.

You only have 72 hours with plan B.

"feeling" pregnant after 72 hours?

i guess they are a whole not more intuned than most.



as far as mifepristone..... that is an abortifacient... that is not available at most pharmacies in AL you have to do it in a doctor's office or something along those lines. so typcially its not an issue.

The literature indicates some efficacy out to 120 hours now. I am gonna get my protocol for the 120. 👍