Planning a PhD in Immunology, then medical school

[yngve]

Hi. I've just registered, but I was reading some posts from some hours now. I am an international student studying for a MSc degree in my country. I my undergraduate majors were Chemistry and Psychology and now I am doing my MSc degree work in organometallic chemistry.
However, I plan to take some extra biology courses like Microbiology, Immunology, Molecular and Cell Biology, then take the biochem GRE and start a PhD in Immunology or Molecular Biology. After that I plan to start medical school.

The US system is totally new to me, so I wanted to ask if this will be enough for getting accepted into Medical School. My GPA is currently 3.7. If I do well, will I have real chances in getting into Medical School. And once in, will I still be required to take the courses I've already taken such as Immunology? And I know that for the residency program, one or two years are considered as research. Having a PhD, will I still be required to perform more research?
Thank you.
Yngve

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[Scottish Chap]

Welcome to SDN!

You're asking several questions in your post that require extensive answers. Some of your questions relate to pre-medical study, medical school education, and also residency education. I'll try to answer what I perceive to be your main question.

You mention that you have a GPA--a term used mostly in North America. If your undergraduate degree is from the U.S. or Canada, the answer to your question will be very different from the one I will provide (I'm assuming you have an undergraduate degree earned outside of the U.S. and Canada).

The short answer regarding gaining entry into a U.S. medical school with an international undergraduate degree is as follows: yes, it's possible. Several SDN members including myself were successful. It is not easy.

U.S. medical schools unequivocally want at least a year of college education completed in the U.S. Most U.S. medical schools will ask you for 60-90 credits, however. This is roughly 2-3 years of full-time study at the undergraduate and/or graduate school level in the U.S. Of those 60-90 credits, some (but not all) U.S. medical schools expect one full year of study in general chemistry, organic chemistry, physics, and biology. Some also want a year of English from a U.S. undergraduate institution. If you have a U.S. graduate degree in the biosciences, many medical schools in the U.S. are willing to overlook the one year undergraduate requirement in biology, but that's pretty much all you'll get out of.

If you have your heart set on completing a U.S. Ph.D. to appear an attractive applicant for U.S. medical schools, please don't do it. This is a long, hard road that will give you a credential which frankly has little value in winning an offer from a U.S. medical school as an international applicant. If you have a Green Card, it helps, but this is still not the best strategy.

A much better strategy would be to come to the U.S. and study for at last two years in an undergraduate program, completing eight credits with lab in: general chemistry, organic chemistry, physics, biology, and English. After that, take the MCAT and apply. It's a long shot, but I have known a couple of internationals to gain entry to U.S. medical schools with a B.Sc. and/or M.Sc. earned overseas and two years of undergraduate study in the U.S.

Good luck!

 

[yngve]

Thank you for your response.
Well, I am looking for a PhD in the US, but not because the board at the medical school will find it attractive, but because I wish to combine this PhD with my future medical career. After the completion of Graduate school, will I be eligible for admission?
Right now I have 3 years of undergraduate and a half of graduate studies in chemistry and 4 years of research experience. I don't see a good option for me to take more undergraduate chemistry then I already have.

 

[StIGMA]

Go to the Physician Scientist forums a little further down the main forum page. Also talk to QofQuimica. Short answer is that a PhD will most likely hinder you from medical school because the PhD is a terminal degree. A better route is either MD/PhD combined programs or an MD followed by a post-doc (instead of a PhD).

 

[Scottish Chap]

There are a few medical schools in the U.S. that will accept international applicants into the MD/PhD program as StIGMA suggests. Washington University in St. Louis is one such school, and they provide internationals with funding.

However, you'll still need to satisfy general admission for the M.D. program for those, and that includes gaining the credits that I mentioned above and definitely taking the MCAT (Medical College Admissions Test). You could try to contact several of those programs now ask them if they are willing to accept a foreign undergraduate degree for admission into the MD/PhD program and an MCAT score.

I disagree that a Ph.D. will "hinder" your chances of admission--and especially not if you publish. A Ph.D. just doesn't increase them dramatically in the U.S.

 

[yngve]

Thanks. I'll give it a thought. I know about the MD/PhD Programs. The reason I wanted to do a PhD first is it can offer me the necessary time to think about Medical School, time to spend some time in the US, time to take whatever courses necessary for eligibility, and doing that PhD which I really want. This may solve the issue of not having a US degree, as I see it now.

Right now there is a lot of stuff going through my mind. I wanted to become a MD since the 5th grade, then moved towards chemistry and participating in a lot of high school contests, and found myself majoring in Chemistry. I especially like biochemistry which guided me to pursuing a PhD in Biological Sciences. I wish to work in a laboratory doing antiviral or anticancer research, so that's why I wish to take this PhD.

I feel better if I could help people not just by standing and working in the lab but out there in the filed. That's why I am considering becoming a doctor.

I know America is the land of all possibilities, but do you think I stand a chance with respect of what I said above?

This may seem strange to you, but here in Norway we do things a lot different. It's a completely different system, and that's why I ask so many questions🙂

 

[QofQuimica]

I'm still not clear on whether you did your UG degree in the US or in the Netherlands. If it's the former, you just need to complete all of the pre-reqs for any med school you plan to apply to. Be aware that not all schools have the same requirements. You can find each school's requirements in the MSAR, which is put out by the AAMC. The new edition comes out each spring around April or May. If it's the latter situation, then you should listen to Scottish Chap. He has a background similar to yours and is a PhD-to-MD.

FWIW, I agree w/ SC that having a PhD won't "hinder" you from getting into medical school. It won't help you either though if you don't have the academic credentials that American med schools require. That being said, if all else is equal (American/Canadian UG degree w/ good GPA and a good MCAT), the PhD will be a very nice EC that most of your fellow applicants don't have. This is especially true if you apply to research-oriented schools and you were productive in grad school.

Stigma is right that PhD-to-MD is by far the hardest path to getting an MD/PhD. You are a lot better off making yourself competitive for an MD program and then applying for a PhD once you get there. Medical students have a *much* easier time getting into grad school than the other way around.

Best of luck. 🙂

P.S. I hope you will take Stigma's suggestion to come visit our Physician Scientists forum. You will find many like-minded premeds and med/grad students there.

 

[menotyou7]

I'm defending my PhD in Microbiology and Immunology in 4 weeks (Eke!) and I will start medical school in July. The PhD did help me get into medical school, because I certainly wasn't competitive without it. Be that as it may, it is not a strategy I would recommend to anyone.

A straight up PhD (non-MD/PhD) is a very intense and difficult degree to obtain. The avererage straight PhD in Micro/Immuno takes 5.5 years to get, with some students taking significantly longer than that. To get a PhD, you must immerse yourself in your work and pretty much shut everything else in your life out. This is not a degree you can obtain if you don't want it for its own sake. It is not a stepping stone degree.

Now on the risk of ticking some people off, I will mention that within academia, there is a very real bia against the MD/PhD degree. Justified or not, many PhD's regard the PhD portion of an MD/PhD dual degree to be a "PhD-light." If you're serious about a career in research, that might be something to keep in mind. However, I don't know if this bias extends beyond the Micro/Immuno world.

One last point. You can do academic research with only an MD. You are eligible to apply for all of the same grants a that a PhD is eligible to apply for. If you follow that path, you will get the MD, do a residency, and then do a research fellowship, which is analogous to a post-doc. After the fellowship you would be eligible to apply for tenure track positions. I have one straight MD and one MD/PhD on my thesis committee. I would say that they both have very similar careers and sucess levels. Their professional lives however, are very different from a straight PhD.

To summarize, don't use the PhD as a stepping stone. Only crazy people go to medical school after they finish a PhD 🙂

 

[dragonfly99]

I don't recommend trying to get a PhD as stepping stone into a US medical school, because I think more likely than not you won't succeed. You might, but I think the odds aren't great. It would be much, much better to explore the combined MD/PhD, in my opinion...as Q mentioned, there are a few US schools like Washington U that would consider international students for this degree.

If you would want the PhD regardless of whether you ever can get into medical school, then OK, just go for the PhD.

I disagree with the comment about all MD/PhD degrees being considered "PhD light". I think it depends on where you get the MD/PhD. I think there are a lot of suboptimal programs, but there are specific ones (particularly designated Medical Scientist Training Programs like the ones at Johns Hopkins, Washington U, etc.) that get a great deal of respect. I know people who went through these programs and they got wonderful career opportunities. And they have at least as easy a time getting grants as the straight up PhD folks...I do think there is some jealous on the part of some PhD's and that may be justified, but I don't think that should dissuade interested students from doing the MD/PhD. I'd never want to, personally, but I think it's a good career opportunity for certain people. Having said that, it seems like every med school in the country now has a smattering of MD/PhD students, and I'm not sure of the quality of a lot of these programs that just have 1 or 2 trainees a year ...I suspect it isn't that great at some of them.

PhD in the US can take from 5.5-8 years, based on my friends' experiences, and the MD/PhD degree is usually about 8 or 9, 7 at the very least, from what I have seen. If you get a straight PhD and then do medical school, that's probably 7 + 4 = 11 years total, and that is assuming that you get into the US medical school and that you get in on your first try, which is assuming a lot.

 

[Scottish Chap]

..as Q mentioned, there are a few US schools like Washington U that would consider international students for this degree.

Actually, I said it, but that's okay. 😉

I disagree with the comment about all MD/PhD degrees being considered "PhD light".

I disagree with this mindset, too, but it's absolutely the case in many basic science departments where PhDs outnumber traditional MD/PhDs. I was a postdoc. and made it as far as faculty interviews before coming back to medical school. I saw this mindset in more than one place. To be fair, much of the additional time in a straight Ph.D. program is consumed with 1-2 years of high-level course work that most MD/PhD students never take, and also with lab rotations. Usually, the MD/PhD program has a vested interest in getting the student back to medical school in a reasonable time frame (I saw a lot of this when I was a Ph.D. student), whereas straight Ph.D. students don't have this kind of advocate.

In the end, research is research - regardless of how you got your training. A Ph.D. won't get you additional respect from study sections reviewing RO1s. At that level of the game, ALL of the proposals are outstanding.

 

[menotyou7]

Just to clarify, I was not trying to say that the idea of a "PhD light" is justified, I just want the OP to be aware that the bias is out there. I only know my own experience, so I can't tell you about the politics in play at other schools.

At my school, we have both a PhD program and an MD/PhD program in our department (Micro/Immuno). It takes an average of 5.5 years to get a PhD here. However, the medical school insists that the MD/PhD students be done with the PhD portion of their degree in 3 years. As a result, we see MD/PhD students defending their PhD's with incomplete research and zero publications. In contrast, the traditional students won't even be considered to defend until they have at least one 1st author publication and there is significant pressure to have multiple publications. As an example, I got my first 1st author paper in 2007 (year 3), and I had to put in another two years before my committee considered me done. The medical school is a huge "advocate" on the part of the MD/PhD students - and of course that breeds resentment.

Now, PhD programs throughout the country are vastly different. So, the politics in my department may not be representative of the majority of departments. However, if a student is going to go through all of the effort to get an MD/PhD, they had better know what they are getting into. The dual degree will not put you at a significant disadvantage in any meaningful way, you just might have to jump a few hoops that the traditional students will not have to, in order to demonstrate that you truly "earned" you PhD and didn't have it "given" to you. Justified or not, the bias exists.

 

[Scottish Chap]

At my school, we have both a PhD program and an MD/PhD program in our department (Micro/Immuno). It takes an average of 5.5 years to get a PhD here. However, the medical school insists that the MD/PhD students be done with the PhD portion of their degree in 3 years. As a result, we see MD/PhD students defending their PhD's with incomplete research and zero publications. In contrast, the traditional students won't even be considered to defend until they have at least one 1st author publication and there is significant pressure to have multiple publications.

Sounds like the program I came from. The Ph.D. students don't get committee approval for a thesis defense date until at least one first-author paper is in press. Most end up with 3-6 papers. I saw some (but not all) MD/PhD students get out with a first-author review or less. One really impressive MD/PhD student managed a first-author Science paper in under two years. Sometimes it's a mixture of good fortune, brute force, and strong work ethics to get more done in less time.

 

[menotyou7]

Hey Scottishchap, I just noticed that you said you were a post-doc before you went back to medical school. I'll be starting med school in the fall after I defend next month. How was the transition for you? Do you have any particular advice for the post PhD med-student? I'm almost afraid to even tell anyone I have a PhD when I get to medical school.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Hey Scottishchap, I just noticed that you said you were a post-doc before you went back to medical school. I'll be starting med school in the fall after I defend next month. How was the transition for you? Do you have any particular advice for the post PhD med-student? I'm almost afraid to even tell anyone I have a PhD when I get to medical school.

Just keep your head down and work hard. A Ph.D. will get you no respect in medical school - the first two years are so different from the way that a doctoral-level scientist is trained to think. Inevitably, however, your classmates (and attendings) will probably find out. You'll see; it will randomly come up in the OR from an attending after 30 minutes of silence. Best to play it down. Many of your non-traditional classmates will come with wonderful backgrounds (lawyers, pharmacists, nurses, paramedics, scientists, business people etc.) and you'll see that they'll try to 'demonstrate' how their background is beneficial to their new environment. That will disappear abruptly after the first couple of exams.

In terms of the transition: it's all about pacing yourself. You are there because you're capable of doing the work. Always keep that in mind. For me, I felt that it got easier (and mote fun!) every year. I just finished my last required rotation today. Note: I'm not saying that it's easy; it isn't. I felt that first year was the hardest year, second year was easier still, third year was easier (but the challenges were very different)....but that's just me. I'm not sure if I am an outlier in this regard.

If you want to discuss anything specific, please feel free to PM me. Congratulations on getting into med school, and welcome to the 'other side'.

 

[menotyou7]

Thanks for the advice. I'm well aware that my PhD won't give me an advantage. Ironically, the PhD should just guarantee to everyone that I haven't taken any formal course work for years now and could possibly be getting in way over my head. I actually feel like I will have to study much more than the traditional students.

I'm hesitant to even mention my PhD to my peers because the doctor that I shadow regularly knows about it, and she 1) makes a huge deal about it to everyone (I've known her for a long time, so it's like she's bragging about one of her kids), and 2) assumes that I know lots of stuff that I have absolutely no idea about (like anatomy - I'm a microbiologist. If you can see it, I know nothing about it.) But on the other hand, when someone asks me where I went to school, it seems dishonest to name the undergrad institution I graduated from in 03 or to just say that I've been doing research, implying I'm a tech. It seems hoity toity to even mention it, and dishonest to not mention it. It's a no win.

I know the PhD won't give me an advantage in class, I'm just unclear about how to play the social side of things. I'm glad to hear it went ok for you though. It's good to know that there are others out there like me. Good luck in your fourth year and with the match!

 

[Scottish Chap]

I know the PhD won't give me an advantage in class, I'm just unclear about how to play the social side of things.

It won't be a problem. You won't need to think about it. Nobody will care after the first exam block. Honestly.

Now....back to what the OP was asking about...sorry, yngve....we're here for you if you have any other questions.

 

[QofQuimica]

Hey Scottishchap, I just noticed that you said you were a post-doc before you went back to medical school. I'll be starting med school in the fall after I defend next month. How was the transition for you? Do you have any particular advice for the post PhD med-student? I'm almost afraid to even tell anyone I have a PhD when I get to medical school.

There's no reason to be "afraid" to tell people that you have a PhD. You don't have to be the one to bring it up necessarily, but you shouldn't be embarrassed or ashamed about it, either. Earning a PhD doesn't make you better than anyone else, but it's definitely an accomplishment to be proud of. In my case, it has usually come up in the context of my having a chemistry background and/or being a nontrad. Sometimes it comes up because I know information that I wouldn't be expected to know otherwise, and sometimes people ask what I did after college because I'm ten years older than my classmates. I tell people who ask that I was a chemist before medical school. At that point, some ask if I have a grad degree, and most others don't. If they ask, I tell them.

Basically, if you don't make a huge deal out of it, no one else will, either. I will tell you now though that during your micro class, you are going to be one very popular guy/gal. 😉

 

[menotyou7]

Thanks Q!

(oh, by the way, I'm a girl 🙂)