Planning ahead of time for Winter/Fall after being rejected

[LongApple]

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Where I am:
- will finish MEng (masters degree engineering) within a year
- prereqs completed: physics 1 and 2
- have not taken MCAT
- no clinical experience yet
- intend to apply to medical school in a few years, maybe at least 3-4 years from now

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Suppose you start the fall applying to medical schools and you believe that it is possible you will be rejected by all of them.

And you intend to improve your application/apply again next year. You want to start things that will improve your application immediately.

So the summer before you apply to medical school, should you apply to program/class/clinical experience job that occurs in the winter/spring as a backup plan?

What is typically done/what are strong options? Do people typically not have plans for the scenario of being rejected in the months immediately following the rejection?

 

[Blanky]

The answer obviously depends on your app.

If everything is strong and well put together you won’t need this.
If it’s your GPA that needs a boost then take some upper level bios
If it’s your MCAT then consider studying come December for a May exam and another cycle.
If it’s your ECs then spend the year boosting them based on weaknesses.

 

[Goro]

Suppose you start the fall applying to medical schools and you believe that it is possible you will be rejected by all of them.

And you intend to improve your application/apply again next year. You want to start things that will improve your application immediately.

So the summer before you apply to medical school, should you apply to program/class/clinical experience job that occurs in the winter/spring as a backup plan?

What is typically done/what are strong options? Do people typically not have plans for the scenario of being rejected in the months immediately following the rejection?

If you don't have shadowing experience with a DO, get it

Get DO LOR. Two would be ideal.

Applicants should ALWAYS assume that they will be rejected and working on Plan B until they have that accept email in their Inbox.

 

[LongApple]

If you don't have shadowing experience with a DO, get it

Get DO LOR. Two would be ideal.

Applicants should ALWAYS assume that they will be rejected and working on Plan B until they have that accept email in their Inbox.

You would get DO shadowing on top of M.D. shadowing? My interpretation of your post is that D.O. LOR's are better than M.D. LOR's for DO schools. I'm really surprised and interested that this would be the case. A D.O. may not even do osteopathic manipulations when you watch him.

 

[LongApple]

If it’s your GPA that needs a boost then take some upper level bios
If it’s your ECs then spend the year boosting them based on weaknesses.

1. Suppose you've already done those "first year med school classes" postbacc with other medical school students. What other classes might you try to take?
Are there other classes say at George Mason that might be helpful?
Biology (BIOL) < George Mason University
Biosciences (BIOS) < George Mason University

2. If you've already graduated from from college I guess clubs are out of the question. Mabe even more clinical volunteer work would help? Or is that a totally different section in the application?

 

[Blanky]

You would get DO shadowing on top of M.D. shadowing? My interpretation of your post is that D.O. LOR's are better than M.D. LOR's for DO schools. I'm really surprised and interested that this would be the case. A D.O. may not even do osteopathic manipulations when you watch him.

It shows that you have taken the initiative in getting the DO LOR.
It also shows that you are serious about DO and did not just apply as a backup or because you screwed up your GPA or dumped on the MCAT

 

[Blanky]

1. Suppose you've already done those "first year med school classes" postbacc with other medical school students. What other classes might you try to take?
Are there other classes say at George Mason that might be helpful?
Biology (BIOL) < George Mason University
Biosciences (BIOS) < George Mason University

2. If you've already graduated from from college I guess clubs are out of the question. Mabe even more clinical volunteer work would help? Or is that a totally different section in the application?

You would be better off posting your profile stats and asking for direct advice.
Upper level Bios like genetics biochem 1/2, molec and cell bio, etc etc etc.
School clubs are weak imo when compared to clinical hours like scribing, MA, or EMT in an ED.
Volunteering is great and doesnt need to be clinical.

 

[Goro]

You would get DO shadowing on top of M.D. shadowing? My interpretation of your post is that D.O. LOR's are better than M.D. LOR's for DO schools. I'm really surprised and interested that this would be the case. A D.O. may not even do osteopathic manipulations when you watch him.

Would you buy a new car without test driving it?
Would you buy a new suit or blouse without trying it on?

 

[Shinken]

You would get DO shadowing on top of M.D. shadowing? My interpretation of your post is that D.O. LOR's are better than M.D. LOR's for DO schools. I'm really surprised and interested that this would be the case. A D.O. may not even do osteopathic manipulations when you watch him.

DO LORs are better, but just because that's the way the system is. It's very likely that you'll shadow a DO and he/she will practice medicine the exact same way an MD would, without any OMT.

You should make an effort to shadow DOs that do use OMT in the office, so you know what will be expected of you during your training years.

 

[Goro]

DO LORs are better, but just because that's the way the system is. It's very likely that you'll shadow a DO and he/she will practice medicine the exact same way an MD would, without any OMT.

You should make an effort to shadow DOs that do use OMT in the office, so you know what will be expected of you during your training years.

In addition, some schools require a DO LOR. Not all! But at those that don't, having an MD LOR won't hurt, but a DO LOR always helps.

 

[Magus5454]

You would get DO shadowing on top of M.D. shadowing? My interpretation of your post is that D.O. LOR's are better than M.D. LOR's for DO schools. I'm really surprised and interested that this would be the case. A D.O. may not even do osteopathic manipulations when you watch him.

@Goro knows his stuff!

 

[LongApple]

You would be better off posting your profile stats and asking for direct advice.
Upper level Bios like genetics biochem 1/2, molec and cell bio, etc etc etc.
School clubs are weak imo when compared to clinical hours like scribing, MA, or EMT in an ED.
Volunteering is great and doesnt need to be clinical.

Suppose that you already did a postbacc where you take the first year medical school classes. And your academics are still weak. What courses would you take next?

Will get to profile stats, thanks for the tip

Thank you!

 

[Blanky]

Suppose that you already did a postbacc where you take the first year medical school classes. And your academics are still weak. What courses would you take next?

Will get to profile stats, thanks for the tip

Thank you!

Just post your stats, this is getting silly.
First year med classes are only in SMPs as far as im aware and not offered at the bachelors level as would be in a postbac.

 

[LongApple]

Just post your stats, this is getting silly.
First year med classes are only in SMPs as far as im aware and not offered at the bachelors level as would be in a postbac.

Stats:
- One year away from graduating with both bachelors and masters in engineering
- Roughly expected GPA for both: 3.7/4.0
- Problems with transcript (taking less than four courses in multiple semesters due to dropping classes before failing them), took too long to graduate. My career advisers recommend doing either a postbacc or SMP due to this
- premed classes taken in last 10 years: physics 1 and 2, no lab
- have not taken MCAT, my imagination is that in a few years I will take it and do slightly better than average
- Have not done postbacc yet

Suppose that you already did a SMP* where you take the first year medical school classes. And your academics are still weak (say for example, didn't do well in SMP classes). What courses would you take next?

 

[Blanky]

I think the accepted wisdom is that a poor SMP performance means you have no chance.
It looks like your GPA is fine. I think you should do a DIY post bac (just sign up at a university as a Bio major and take the prereqs and then stop taking classes) and then take the MCAT and be done with it.
I wouldn’t judge the MCAT too lightly.

I don’t think you should even consider an SMP as your GPA is good.

 

[mc29012]

Stats:
- One year away from graduating with both bachelors and masters in engineering
- Roughly expected GPA for both: 3.7/4.0
- Problems with transcript (taking less than four courses in multiple semesters due to dropping classes before failing them), took too long to graduate. My career advisers recommend doing either a postbacc or SMP due to this
- premed classes taken in last 10 years: physics 1 and 2, no lab
- have not taken MCAT, my imagination is that in a few years I will take it and do slightly better than average
- Have not done postbacc yet

Suppose that you already did a SMP* where you take the first year medical school classes. And your academics are still weak (say for example, didn't do well in SMP classes). What courses would you take next?

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding or missed something but the only pre-requisite classes you have taken so far is physics without lab? You will have some pretty difficult semesters ahead to fulfill the requirements with a DIY post-bacc, so before doing anything my advice is to re-evaluate your study habits, because if you take multiple upper level biology classes and drop ANY of them with a history of withdrawals in multiple semesters, then it will show adcoms that you won't be able to handle the rigor of medical school.

 

[Magus5454]

Stats:
- One year away from graduating with both bachelors and masters in engineering
- Roughly expected GPA for both: 3.7/4.0
- Problems with transcript (taking less than four courses in multiple semesters due to dropping classes before failing them), took too long to graduate. My career advisers recommend doing either a postbacc or SMP due to this
- premed classes taken in last 10 years: physics 1 and 2, no lab
- have not taken MCAT, my imagination is that in a few years I will take it and do slightly better than average
- Have not done postbacc yet

Suppose that you already did a SMP* where you take the first year medical school classes. And your academics are still weak (say for example, didn't do well in SMP classes). What courses would you take next?

You need to research medical school prerequisites and make a plan from there. Jumping into a SMP will eat you alive IMO. Kudos on the high GPA in engineering though

 

[Goro]

Suppose that you already did a postbacc where you take the first year medical school classes. And your academics are still weak. What courses would you take next?

Find a different career.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

What's wrong with being an engineer? You are years away from applying to med school.

 

[Magus5454]

What's wrong with being an engineer? You are years away from applying to med school.

I haven't figured out where the OP is, his questions don't make sense. And he edited postbacc into SMP.

 

[Blanky]

I think OP is almost finished with a BS/MS in engineering and so has only taken physics 1/2. OP states a 3.7 UG and 4.0 grad GPA (If I understand correctly.) If this is all correct then OP should (If serious about medicine) take the remaining prereqs as a DIY postbacc while building ECs and take the MCAT.

 

[Magus5454]

I think OP is almost finished with a BS/MS in engineering and so has only taken physics 1/2. OP states a 3.7 UG and 4.0 grad GPA (If I understand correctly.) If this is all correct then OP should (If serious about medicine) take the remaining prereqs as a DIY postbacc while building ECs and take the MCAT.

I mean his questions don't make sense. He started out by asking what to do if rejected, but he won't be ready to apply for at least two years by my thinking.

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

Haha, the reason everybody is confused is because OP keeps doing this "Suppose you've done X, Y, X" thing, instead of just asking direct questions about his details and plans. I had to re-read his posts a couple of times just to figure out where he was in this process lol

 

[LongApple]

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding or missed something but the only pre-requisite classes you have taken so far is physics without lab? You will have some pretty difficult semesters ahead to fulfill the requirements with a DIY post-bacc, so before doing anything my advice is to re-evaluate your study habits, because if you take multiple upper level biology classes and drop ANY of them with a history of withdrawals in multiple semesters, then it will show adcoms that you won't be able to handle the rigor of medical school.

1. If I do a DIY postbacc, then do you think it is absolutely important to take four classes per semester?

2. The only prereq I have within 10 years of applying to medical school is physics 2 without lab. However, I don't think I'll have a problem with gchem, ochem, physics because I took them before those 10 years and aced them, a bunch on pass/fail but aced anyway.

Do you feel that if I try to take premed classes along with upper level biology, then it will be a very difficult? Do you think there are some things to keep in mind when choosing the order of the DIY postbacc?

3. For example, after I do the premed classes, do you feel that a schedule like undergrad biochem, microbio, pharmacology, and anatomy be just too intense even at UG level and I should try to spread out the upper level biology classes somehow?

I could I could take bio 1 and 2 as early as possible in order to be able to space out upper level UG bio classes. But earlier I was thinking maybe I should do physics gchem and statistics including summer classes first before biology since I'm quite used to doing problem set/math style classes (engineering classes are fresher in my mind)

4. adcom= admission commission?
https://www.google.com/search?q=adc.....69i57j0l5.2150j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

5. As far as study skills, I don't really know if I can handle memorization heavy classes yet basically because I've never really done them since high school, which I imagine is a much lower level. I've been asking on SDN how med school students get good at memorization and when I take biology 1 and 2, I will have a chance to practice some methods (anki flashcards, writing/organizing classnotes in a way that it is easy to cover stuff and test myself)

At least from what I remember taking high school biology, I didn't really physically arrange words on the page in a way that makes it easy to cover stuff up/test oneself but I'm going to try experimenting with starting new lines more in my notes often so I can just use a second sheet of paper to cover up the stuff below.

 

[LongApple]

I think the accepted wisdom is that a poor SMP performance means you have no chance.

Out of curiosity, what is considered a decent/workable SMP performance that still has hope? Straight B+'s?

Or even straight B's?

 

[drducky.]

Four classes per semester isn't mandatory by any means, especially if you have other obligations like a job.

You can just apply after you take your prereqs if you do well in them since you already have a degree in something else.

Goro said that he expects a 3.5 from his smp students so aim for B+/A- atleast.

 

[LongApple]

Four classes per semester isn't mandatory by any means, especially if you have other obligations like a job.

Goro said that he expects a 3.5 from his smp students so aim for B+/A- atleast.

If you don't have shadowing experience with a DO, get it

Get DO LOR. Two would be ideal.

Applicants should ALWAYS assume that they will be rejected and working on Plan B until they have that accept email in their Inbox.

"his SMP students"
Goro, you're an SMP career counselor? Or even a person who makes decisions on applications to your medical school?

 

[mc29012]

1. If I do a DIY postbacc, then do you think it is absolutely important to take four classes per semester?

2. The only prereq I have within 10 years of applying to medical school is physics 2 without lab. However, I don't think I'll have a problem with gchem, ochem, physics because I took them before those 10 years and aced them, a bunch on pass/fail but aced anyway.

Do you feel that if I try to take premed classes along with upper level biology, then it will be a very difficult? Do you think there are some things to keep in mind when choosing the order of the DIY postbacc?

3. For example, after I do the premed classes, do you feel that a schedule like undergrad biochem, microbio, pharmacology, and anatomy be just too intense even at UG level and I should try to spread out the upper level biology classes somehow?

I could I could take bio 1 and 2 as early as possible in order to be able to space out upper level UG bio classes. But earlier I was thinking maybe I should do physics gchem and statistics including summer classes first before biology since I'm quite used to doing problem set/math style classes (engineering classes are fresher in my mind)

4. adcom= admission commission?
https://www.google.com/search?q=adc.....69i57j0l5.2150j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

5. As far as study skills, I don't really know if I can handle memorization heavy classes yet basically because I've never really done them since high school, which I imagine is a much lower level. I've been asking on SDN how med school students get good at memorization and when I take biology 1 and 2, I will have a chance to practice some methods (anki flashcards, writing/organizing classnotes in a way that it is easy to cover stuff and test myself)

At least from what I remember taking high school biology, I didn't really physically arrange words on the page in a way that makes it easy to cover stuff up/test oneself but I'm going to try experimenting with starting new lines more in my notes often so I can just use a second sheet of paper to cover up the stuff below.

Let me preface my response with something: I am not an admission committee member (adcom). I am just someone who's never taken a medical school class. I have only has just gone through the grueling application process. 99% of the people who use SDN are not adcoms. The 1% who are (@Goro is the only one I've encountered), are still only a singular individual. Every individual is different, and their job is to select individuals who they feel will be a good fit for their school and will eventually be a good doctor. The qualities they look for will vary and most importantly, despite all of the "box checking" involved in applying there is no single path to medical school. While it is okay to seek advice, it is up to you and you alone to make it to where you want to be, no one will ever be able to put themselves in your shoes, nor will they really care to for the most part. There are lots of people with extremely non-traditional paths or sub-par grades that get in and become doctors. With that being said:

1. The most important thing in my mind, given your history, is to show adcoms 2 things. You have to show them that you can not only succeed in medical school, but also that you understand what it means to be a physician and that you want to be a physician for the right reasons. The amount of classes you have to take varies on your situation, but IMO you should 100% take classes full time (>12 credits I think). There are a lot of people who apply to school (your competitors) that work multiple jobs, do extracurriculars, and take classes full time. You have to show that you are able to juggle a variety of responsibilities and be able to excel academically at the same time. If you are not taking a full course load, then you should be getting a lot of clinical experience whether it is paid or not. Shadowing, volunteering, or a position in health care are absolutely essential in demonstrating your understanding of medicine.

2/3. Do not underestimate any class and make sure you have a full understanding of the material come MCAT time. To answer your question, yes I think the order does matter. Try to take harder classes early while still filling out pre-requisites for other classes. Taking four 400 level bio courses in one semester will be very hard, especially when you are trying to ace all of them, so dont take chem 101, bio 105, phy 101, etc. all in the beginning if possible. Litter in those upper level bios as early as possible so that you're not taking OChem 2, and three 400 level bio courses in the same semester while potentially preparing for the MCAT, because that will be very difficult, especially if you have to work and do EC's on the side. I would say save those physics and math courses that you may need and take them concurrently with the harder classes, because you should be able to ace those with less work given your background in engineering. Also, remember that classes with lab are worth 4 credits usually, but essentially have a 6 credit time commitment in terms of in-class time (3 hours lecture with 3 hours lab/week at my institution at least).

4. yes

5. This is something that no one is going to be able to give you perfect advice for, you just have to find a way that works for you, and your study habits are very likely to change throughout the course of your schooling. Get a tutor early if you need, don't wait until you failed an exam or two to seek help, because you absolutely cannot afford F's or W's at this stage in the game.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Goro]

"his SMP students"
Goro, you're an SMP career counselor? Or even a person who makes decisions on applications to your medical school?

Adcom member
Med school faculty
SMP faculty

 

[Goro]

Out of curiosity, what is considered a decent/workable SMP performance that still has hope? Straight B+'s?

Or even straight B's?

3.7+ for MD schools
3.4-3.5 should be OK for DO schools, but having a strong MCAT is best in addition.
My school has found out the hard way that people who get < 3.4 in our SMP struggle badly in med school, so a 3.5 is our own cutoff.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Get a DO LOR as @Goro suggests. Sure we take MD letters into consideration. However, show up to my interview with no DO shadowing or LOR, and having not bothered to review the Osteopathic tenets on Wikipedia you will not score well. Some schools require a DO LOR, many prefer one. My school has an abundance of applicants so make sure you are competetive before applying