Plastics vs. OMFS

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They're jealous they don't got a D.D.S./D.M.D. next to their name as well 😛
OMFS spend more time in their course on the face , probably more qualified to do some of those plastics .
 
OzDDS said:
http://www.safeplasticsurgery.org/

DAMN!! Harsh much? My question is why don't they have a similar website bashing the ENTs who do facial plastics like OMFS. How is that any different. Just easier to cut up the dentists eh? 👎

That's exactly the case. It's always easy to pick on the "dentists" because then you can make the ridiculous claim that they're not "real doctors".

On a side note, this is a problem that will NEVER GO AWAY.

You'll note that nowhere on the site does it mention that many OMFS have medical degrees. This just strengthens the argument that it's just easier to pick on "dentists".

Also, they say that dental surgeons operate on the mouth and "lower jaw" - since when is the maxilla not part of the oral cavity?

Finally, have you ever met cosmetic surgery patients? Man, what a miserable bunch of twits...sure they pay cash, but so do implant patients. 😉
 
THE CONCEPT IS ABSURD.
"But that’s the agenda that dentists and oral surgeons are pushing across the nation, putting profit ahead of patient safety. In several states, they have received or are seeking legislative approval to perform cosmetic plastic surgery even though they have not received the proper medical training to perform these surgical procedures.

Dentists and oral surgeons are essentially asking elected officials to substitute legislation for education. Why open the door to less-qualified professionals? It’s just bad medicine."


I just contacted Nancy Ryan, Public Relations of Plastic Surgery Society or whatever the heck this organization is and I told her my $0.02, politely of course 😎

i said that at my school dental and medical students take classes together and while during the clinics the med students learn the difference between OB/GYN and ER medicine, the dental students learn more about the face

and furthermore that oral surgery residencies spend more time on the face than a plastics residency, where they focus on different tissues of the body; that therefore, oral and facial surgeons would be more qualified if compared head to head to do surgery of the face than a plastics person

and i told her that i don't appreciate this sort of propoganda and slander and i (politely) hung up

the public relations person may have a chip on her shoulder b/c she doesn't have the title doctor and if you think we got it bad, then you have no idea how the non-medical staff of these a$$hole plastic surgeons have got it

"We would like to hear from you. If you have any questions or feedback you would like to share with us regarding your experience with plastic surgery please contact us at 847-228-9900."

i didn't say this to her
but this is my opinion
the facelift is our specialty, rhinoplasty is our specialty, orthognathics is our specialty
(just like eyelifts are best done by optho's)
boob jobs, lipo, & brazilian buttlifts are their specialty

just remember that the new generation of facial surgeons will speak volumes by the quality of their work
 
AUG2UAG said:
We would like to hear from you. If you have any questions or feedback you would like to share with us regarding your experience with plastic surgery please contact us at 847-228-9900
Note to self: make prank calls this weekend! 😀
 
brycethefatty said:
I don't see why OMFS are doing face lifts in the first place. If you had it in your mind that you wanted to do plastic surgery, why not go to med school, then do the plastics residency so you would be able to build up a more stable referral base. If I was a general practitioner, I would refer to an MD that went the traditional route before I ever sent the patient to someone who went to dental school.

The second thing that p1sses me off is that kids get on here and say, "Does this so-and-so OMFS program teach plastic surgery?" etc. Why the heck would you do plastics if you were an OMFS? Why not just got to med school and do it the right way? The real answer to that question is that they either couldn't get into med school, or they changed their mind on what they wanted to do during their OMFS residency.

Because the name of the field is oral & maxillofacial surgery. Please explain to us what part of a chin or nose job is outside the scope of an OMS. Or do you propose that no hospital should allow a Le Fort II or sagittal split to occur without a PRS who "got to med school and did it the right way"? Looking forward to seeing your response.
 
brycethefatty said:
I don't see why OMFS are doing face lifts in the first place. If you had it in your mind that you wanted to do plastic surgery, why not go to med school, then do the plastics residency so you would be able to build up a more stable referral base. If I was a general practitioner, I would refer to an MD that went the traditional route before I ever sent the patient to someone who went to dental school.

The second thing that p1sses me off is that kids get on here and say, "Does this so-and-so OMFS program teach plastic surgery?" etc. Why the heck would you do plastics if you were an OMFS? Why not just got to med school and do it the right way? The real answer to that question is that they either couldn't get into med school, or they changed their mind on what they wanted to do during their OMFS residency.

The leap from OMFS to Plastic surgery is small. And as Medical Students them selves OMFS residents get as much or more training in surgery on facial structures. A nip and tuck are relatively minor compared to what OMFS residents are trained to do. Also the Surgeons that are doing the plastic surgery are not your typical third molar implant "dental" Surgeons. They have likely gone through advanced training. Either route, straight through med school or DDS/Med school is a legitimate path.
 
brycethefatty said:
If I was a general practitioner, I would refer to an MD that went the traditional route before I ever sent the patient to someone who went to dental school.
since when are face lifts done on referrals?

brycethefatty said:
The second thing that p1sses me off is that kids get on here and say, "Does this so-and-so OMFS program teach plastic surgery?" etc. Why the heck would you do plastics if you were an OMFS? Why not just got to med school and do it the right way?
because OMFS is the right way to specialize on surgery of the face, i don't understand your point

brycethefatty said:
The real answer to that question is that they either couldn't get into med school, or they changed their mind on what they wanted to do during their OMFS residency.
no it's not, that's slander and propoganda
 
It is my understanding that the traditional route to plastic surgery in countries such as Great Britan is both Dental and Medical school (OMFS). Does anybody have info on that?
 
brycethefatty said:
Yeah, you communists and your big words. . .

lol, I agree with you to some extent. If you want to do straight cosmetic surgery I would go and do a plastics residency after med school. Not because you can't get trained or do them with the OMFS training, but more because i would also want to expand the scope of the practice to include boobs so i could make more money, and you will always be fighting with the plastics guys over cases and referrals and privaleges...etc....who wants a life like that?

The reasons OMFS guys want privaleges is because the plastic surgeons have no trouble letting you (as an OMFS) take face call at your local metro hospital, which would entail facial reconstruction, complex laceration closure, etc...because it doesn't pay any money. How can you let a surgeon on one hand do all this trauma reconstruction on the face, then say they cannot make controlled cuts on the face for cosmetic purposes. The reason is that your taking potential income away from them, and unfortunately for them that is not a medically based reason to refuse privaledges. This will always be a battle, fortunately for me i don't like cosmetics so i could give 2 $hits.
 
I'm curious to know in which states can dentists do botox, chemical peels microdermabrasion etc? I want to do dentistry as well as have some sort of spa type medic in my practice. thanks
 
OzDDS said:
http://www.safeplasticsurgery.org/

DAMN!! Harsh much? My question is why don't they have a similar website bashing the ENTs who do facial plastics like OMFS. How is that any different. Just easier to cut up the dentists eh? 👎

Probably because the majority of ENT's doing facial plastic surgery are fellowship trained in facial plastic surgery. It is rare that a general ENT does facial plastics without some additional training. I admit that some do lots of rhinoplasty though. Several FPS fellowships exist. The PRS guys recognize this and made an addendum to there guidelines supporting fellowship trained otolaryngologist to call themselves facial plastic surgeons.

I have rotated with OMFS and enjoyed it. All them were very well trained surgeons and could take care of any facial trauma, but none of them did cosmetics because they did not feel like they were trained well enough for it. They were dual degree grads too, yet mainly did third molars. At least that was my limited experience. However, I have seen one OMFS guy on the internet teaching at a "cosmetic fellowship"(not PRS) and performing a wide variety of facial procedures.

I think if you are trained to do something, you should be given privileges to do it. I don't know the OMFS residency guidelines for min. number of facial cosmetic procedures, but I would be interested to see that if anyone has a link. For me, that is the issue. I can study the face all day but until I have done 20 supervised rhinoplasties, I would not try to get privileges for such.

Does OMFS have any plastics fellowships?

Just my honest opinion. I am not trying to troll or be inflammatory.

Disclaimer: I am getting ready to start an otolaryngology residency in a few weeks and have no interest in cosmetics.
 
Pikevillemedstudent said:
Does OMFS have any plastics fellowships?.


Yes. Following an OMFS residency there are 4 different fellowship options that exist as far as I know.

1. Facial plastics
2. Head Neck Oncology
3. Microvascular
4. Craniofacial (which OMFS shares with plastics.. similar to how "hand reconstruction" is shared between Ortho and plastics)
 
OzDDS said:
Yes. Following an OMFS residency there are 4 different fellowship options that exist as far as I know.

1. Facial plastics
2. Head Neck Oncology
3. Microvascular
4. Craniofacial (which OMFS shares with plastics.. similar to how "hand reconstruction" is shared between Ortho and plastics)

I am not sure if any of this is true.

I know for a fact that Head and Neck is only officially available to ENT, General surgery and Plastics. In reality, only ENT BE/BC applicants are accepted into H&N onc(with a few exceptions). I read this straight from the American Head and Neck Society website.
http://www.ahns.info/residentfellow/fellowships.php
Also, I think microvascular is additional training included with some H&N fellowships, so not really a separate fellowship, but usually an additional year(sometimes more or less depending on the program) to an H&N fellowship. BTW H&N is where my interest lies.

As for Facial Plastics, unless OMFS has their own fellowships, these are limited to ENT applicants as well.
http://www.entlink.net/residents/education/fellowship/fellowshipSearch-results.cfm

Although my knowledge of craniofacial fellowships is limited, I particularly remember those being limited to PRS fellows only. I could be wrong though.

Let me know if the OMFS fellowships are different or that somehow I am way off base here.
 
I'm sure some of the Maxillofacial residents or surgeons could better provide you with more accurate information. But here are at least a couple links that I found where you can read more about it.

http://surgery.med.miami.edu/oral/education.asp

http://www.ohsu.edu/sod/omfs/index.html

http://www.dent.ohio-state.edu/OMFS/Prospective_Students.htm

http://www.llu.edu/llu/dentistry/oms/training.html

http://www.carle.com/cca/finddoctor/bio.asp?physid=490

http://www.eastman.ucl.ac.uk/iaoo/founders/Ord R_ShortCV.htm

http://www.umm.edu/doctors/robert_a_ord.html

http://www.rch.org.au/plastic/staff.cfm?doc_id=7231

http://www.aaoms.org/

http://www.anzaoms.org/

http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/26740212/


I know your going into (ear, nose, throat)/otolaryngology I know we all have some overlap in our scope of practice etc. I'm sure we can all learn to get along though and learn from each other! Peace! 🙂
 
OzDDS said:
I'm sure some of the Maxillofacial residents or surgeons could better provide you with more accurate information. But here are at least a couple links that I found where you can read more about it.

http://surgery.med.miami.edu/oral/education.asp

http://www.ohsu.edu/sod/omfs/index.html

http://www.dent.ohio-state.edu/OMFS/Prospective_Students.htm

http://www.llu.edu/llu/dentistry/oms/training.html

http://www.carle.com/cca/finddoctor/bio.asp?physid=490

http://www.eastman.ucl.ac.uk/iaoo/founders/Ord R_ShortCV.htm

http://www.umm.edu/doctors/robert_a_ord.html

http://www.rch.org.au/plastic/staff.cfm?doc_id=7231

http://www.aaoms.org/

http://www.anzaoms.org/

http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/26740212/


I know your going into (ear, nose, throat)/otolaryngology I know we all have some overlap in our scope of practice etc. I'm sure we can all learn to get along though and learn from each other! Peace! 🙂

It looks like Miami has both onc and trauma fellowships and according to a couple different guys CV's, Maryland also has onc. and Pitt has a craniomaxillofacial fellowship for OMFS. Interesting info.

I agree with your last statement. I have no problems with OMFS, esp. since where I am going to practice, they take most of the late night facial trauma calls and ENT doesn't 😉 Needless to say I love OMFS for improving my future quality of life!! :laugh:

I am still curious as to whether there is a standard for OMFS residencies with regard to facial plastic/cosmetic procedures. Any info?
 
Pikevillemedstudent said:
It looks like Miami has both onc and trauma fellowships and according to a couple different guys CV's, Maryland also has onc. and Pitt has a craniomaxillofacial fellowship for OMFS. Interesting info.

I agree with your last statement. I have no problems with OMFS, esp. since where I am going to practice, they take most of the late night facial trauma calls and ENT doesn't 😉 Needless to say I love OMFS for improving my future quality of life!! :laugh:

I am still curious as to whether there is a standard for OMFS residencies with regard to facial plastic/cosmetic procedures. Any info?

http://www.aaoms.org/residency/PDF/NewOMStds.pdf

This is a link to the accredidation standards required for OMS residencies.

MAJOR SURGERY
4-11 For each authorized final year resident position, residents must perform major oral and maxillofacial surgery on 75 patients including adults and children, no more than five (5) of whom require dentoalveolar surgery, documented by at least a formal operative note. In order for a major surgical case to be counted toward meeting this requirement, the resident must be an operating surgeon or first assistant to an oral and maxillofacial surgery attending staff member, the patient must be managed by the oral and maxillofacial surgery service and the resident must be supervised by an
oral and maxillofacial surgery attending staff member. A resident will be considered to be the resident surgeon only when the program has documented he or she has played a significant role in determining or confirming the diagnosis, including
appropriate consultation, providing preoperative care, selecting and performing the appropriate operative procedure, managing the postoperative course and conducting sufficient follow-up to be acquainted both with the course of the disease and outcome of treatment. Surgery performed by oral and maxillofacial surgery residents while rotating on or assisting with other services cannot be counted toward this requirement.
VARIETY OF MAJOR SURGICAL EXPERIENCE
4-12 Of the 75 major surgical patients required for each authorized final year resident
position, there must be at least 10 patients in each category of surgery. The
categories of major surgery are defined as: 1) trauma 2) pathology 3) orthognathic
surgery 4) reconstructive and esthetic surgery. Patients who have simultaneous
surgical procedures in multiple categories must only be counted in one category.
Sufficient variety in each category, as specified below, must be provided.
Intent: The intent is to ensure the balanced exposure to all major categories of surgical cases.
Closed reduction of fractures and incisional biopsies are not considered major cases.
Examples of evidence to demonstrate compliance:
· Department and institution general operating room statistics and logs
4-13 In the trauma category, in addition to mandibular fractures, the surgical
management and treatment of the maxilla and zygomatico maxillary complex must
be included.

Reconstructive surgery includes, but is not limited to, vestibuloplasties,
augmentation procedures, temporomandibular joint reconstruction,
management of continuity defects, insertion of implants, facial cleft repair
and other reconstructive surgery. Dental implant training must include
didactic and clinical experience in diagnosis, treatment planning and
consultation with restorative dentists, as well as site preparation, adjunctive
hard and soft tissue grafting, implant placement and maintenance.

Esthetic surgery includes but is not limited to rhinoplasty,
blepharoplasty, rhytidectomy, genioplasty, lipectomy, otoplasty, and scar
revision.


It looks like to receive accreditation, a program has to have a minimum number of esthetic and reconstructive cases. It varies from program to program as to what they do for esthetic procedures. It looks like dental implants and bone grafts are in the reconstrutive and esthetic category so I imagine some programs use this for their esthetic requirements while others do more facial cosmetics. By the way, I just cut and pasted small portions of a 44 page document so if you want more info, I recommend the link provided at the beginning of this post.
 
Pikevillemedstudent said:
I have no problems with OMFS, esp. since where I am going to practice, they take most of the late night facial trauma calls and ENT doesn't 😉 Needless to say I love OMFS for improving my future quality of life!! :laugh:

This seems to jive with what the OMS residents here are saying. ENT's (and those who want to be ENT's) are perfectly willing to let OMS do the hard stuff that doesn't pay...but share the rhinoplasty pot of gold? No way.
 
brycethefatty said:
My dad (a general practice MD) refers people all the time to a plastic surgeon that come in and ask for a good doctor. Looks like you're just another b1tch who likes to pull facts out of his butt.
Aw, another pre-med who thinks the plural of "personal anecdote" is "data." That's cute.

Also, does anyone else appreciate the irony of this kid bashing OMS residency as useless, when his dad apparently never did any residency? If I had to guess, I'd bet somebody's trying to compensate for something.
 
Pikevillemedstudent said:
I am not sure if any of this is true.
I read this straight from the American Head and Neck Society website.
http://www.ahns.info/residentfellow/fellowships.php
Also, I think microvascular is additional training included with some H&N fellowships, so not really a separate fellowship, but usually an additional year(sometimes more or less depending on the program) to an H&N fellowship. BTW H&N is where my interest lies.

Actually, there are a number of OMFS who are members of the American Head and Neck Society and have done OMFS-sponsored Head and Neck fellowships.

I was always under the impression that Head and Neck fellowships aren't as sought after as the other options (Plastics, Skull Base, etc.). Most of the ENTs I've talked to have said that many of these fellowship spots often remain unfilled after the fellowship match.

Also, just like anything else in medicine, the treatment of head and neck cancer is not strictly within the purview of a single specialty.

Dr. Eric Dierks has written an interesting historical perspective on the treatment of head and neck cancers. I would say that he provides a relatively balanced historical perspective, given that he is certified as BOTH an OMFS and an ENT:

Dierks EJ. Surgeons of oral cancer and leaders of a young specialty: the role of 3 oral and maxillofacial surgeons. J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2002 Jan;60(1):86-92.

Pikesville - I think you're correct in saying that the ENTs handle the majority of head and neck cancers in this country, but if you read the above article, you will see that this was not always the case, and that there are still a number of OMFS who do head and neck oncologic surgery, albeit after completing AAOMS sponsored fellowships (one of which happens to be with Dr. Dierks himself).
 
aphistis said:
This seems to jive with what the OMS residents here are saying. ENT's (and those who want to be ENT's) are perfectly willing to let OMS do the hard stuff that doesn't pay...but share the rhinoplasty pot of gold? No way.

What's up with the attitude?

First off, trauma can be a very lucrative field, esp. if the patient has car insurance and many do since it is a law that you must have it in KY. So I don't feel sorry for the OMFS guy here pulling big $$$ and working less than most ENT's. This place isn't Level I BTW.

Listen, I have great respect for OMFS. I actually convinced the OMFS guys here to start doing submandibular gland surgery. So don't think I am territorial.

As a general ENT, I would never do anything but the most routine Rhinoplasty if even that. And I think that unless an OMFS did a plastics fellowship or VERY rigorous plastics training in residency, I don't think they should do it either. From the above post, it is obvious that OMFS residency training in facial cosmetic procedures is variable and definitely not standardized (implants count!). You could say the same for ENT as well. Some residencies have alot, some have very little. This is why they started Facial Plastic fellowships, to standardized the training. OMFS should do the same.

Bottomline: I don't think either(ENT or OMFS) should do plastic surgery without the training. I don't think anybody should do any surgery without proper training.

I hate these silly arguments that really boil down to money. OMFS wants what plastics already has solely because it is lucrative and therefore plastics has started this smear campaign against OMFS/dentists to discredit them and protect their pot. None of this is right, but I ask you to honestly answer this question.

What would OMFS do if plastics started doing third molars? How would the field react? Please be honest.
 
Pikevillemedstudent said:
I am still curious as to whether there is a standard for OMFS residencies with regard to facial plastic/cosmetic procedures. Any info?

If you go to the following website, you can see the accreditation standards for OMFS Fellowships (i.e. the required number of cases):

www.ada.org/prof/ed/accred/standards/omsf.pdf

Excerpted from this document:

Esthetic Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery: An esthetic surgery fellowship is a
structured post-residency educational experience devoted to the enhancement
and acquisition of skills in esthetic surgery.

Goals/Objectives: Knowledge and surgical skills in maxillofacial esthetic
surgery must be taught to a level of competency. The training must include
diagnosis and management of complications.

Surgical Experience: Surgical experience must include the following procedures
and must exist in sufficient number and variety to ensure that objectives of the
training are met. No absolute number can ensure adequate training but
experience suggests that a minimum of 125 maxillofacial esthetic cases is
generally required. These procedures include, but are not limited to:
blepharoplasty, brow lifts, treatment of skin lesions, cheiloplasty, genioplasty,
otoplasty, rhinoplasty and rhytidectomy.

The Head and Neck Oncology requirements are even more stringent:

Oral and Maxillofacial Oncology:
Definition: Oral and maxillofacial oncology is that area of the specialty which
manages patients with malignant tumors of the maxillofacial region.

Surgical Experience: Surgical experience must include the following procedures
and must exist in sufficient number and variety to ensure that objectives of the
training are met. No absolute number can ensure adequate training but
experience suggests that at least 90 major surgical cases should be documented.
These procedures include, but are not limited to:
extirpative surgery for malignant and benign tumors, supraomohyoid,
functional, radical and selective radical neck dissections, major soft and hard
tissue reconstruction, as well as free, local and regional flap procedures.
1. Excision of malignant tumors.
2. Major soft tissue excision for benign or malignant tumors, e.g.
hemiglossectomy, floor of mouth excision, parotidectomy,
submandibular gland incision.
3. Jaw excision for benign and malignant disease, e.g. marginal or
segmental mandibulectomy, partial maxillectomy.
(60 total cases for category 1, 2 and 3)
4. Neck dissection which must include radical and limited (e.g.
supraomohyoid) neck dissection.
(20 cases for category 4)

6-2.1 The overall surgical experience must be broad and must include
experience in primary and secondary reconstruction.
Reconstructive techniques must include soft and hard tissue
replacement. Reconstruction should be performed by the fellow.
If some reconstructive techniques are undertaken by a consulting
service e.g., microvascular service, the fellow must be involved in
the surgery and gain knowledge of these techniques.

6-2.2 There must be close liaison between a radiation oncology
department or a radiation oncology office and a depart ment of
medical oncology or medical oncologist. The fellow must be
trained in the role of radiation therapy and chemotherapy in the
treatment and management of malignant tumors of the
maxillofacial region.
 
Pikevillemedstudent said:
Bottomline: I don't think either(ENT or OMFS) should do plastic surgery without the training. I don't think anybody should do any surgery without proper training.

What would OMFS do if plastics started doing third molars? How would the field react? Please be honest.

I absolutely agree - only fellowship trained OMFS should be doing cosmetic procedures. Based on what I've heard, it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to obtain one of these fellowships if you don't have an MD. So, it is likely that, in the future, the only fellowship-trained OMFS cosmetic surgeons will likely be DDS/MDs or DMD/MDs.

Now, getting back to the third molar question - IF plastic/ENT residents spent part of their training learning how to do denotalveolar surgery, and if fellowships were available for them to do dentoalveolar surgery and preprosthetic surgery, I think it would be fine for these guys to take out teeth and put in dental implants.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can't ask how OMFS would feel if plastics started pulling thirds, because there's no plausible mechanism in place that would enable them to do so (unless they were trained as an OMFS first, and then retrained as a plastic surgeon). However, there is an education infrastructure in place for OMFS to be trained in cosmetic procedures, with the requirements outlined in my previous post.

On a side note - it seems that the plastics/ENT residents I've interacted with always seem to denigrate the removal of third molars/implant surgery, maintaining that "it can't be that hard - you're just taking out a tooth." Let me tell you, as a general dentist, third molar surgery is MUCH MORE DIFFICULT that it appears. I actually take it as a compliment when the other surgical residents bust on thirds, because it means that OMFS guys have made it look really easy.

We should all try to play nice - I'm not sure that anyone here has an "attitude", I think people just tend to get overly sensitive about these topic areas.

The bottom line is that plastics and orthopods have learned to share the hand (and neurosurgery seems to be coming to the party as well), orthopods and neurosurgeons share the spine, and OMFS, ENT, and plastics have done a good job sharing facial trauma. There's room for everyone.
 
ajmacgregor said:
If you go to the following website, you can see the accreditation standards for OMFS Fellowships (i.e. the required number of cases):

www.ada.org/prof/ed/accred/standards/omsf.pdf

Excerpted from this document:

Esthetic Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery: An esthetic surgery fellowship is a
structured post-residency educational experience devoted to the enhancement
and acquisition of skills in esthetic surgery.

Goals/Objectives: Knowledge and surgical skills in maxillofacial esthetic
surgery must be taught to a level of competency. The training must include
diagnosis and management of complications.

Surgical Experience: Surgical experience must include the following procedures
and must exist in sufficient number and variety to ensure that objectives of the
training are met. No absolute number can ensure adequate training but
experience suggests that a minimum of 125 maxillofacial esthetic cases is
generally required. These procedures include, but are not limited to:
blepharoplasty, brow lifts, treatment of skin lesions, cheiloplasty, genioplasty,
otoplasty, rhinoplasty and rhytidectomy.

The Head and Neck Oncology requirements are even more stringent:

Oral and Maxillofacial Oncology:
Definition: Oral and maxillofacial oncology is that area of the specialty which
manages patients with malignant tumors of the maxillofacial region.

Surgical Experience: Surgical experience must include the following procedures
and must exist in sufficient number and variety to ensure that objectives of the
training are met. No absolute number can ensure adequate training but
experience suggests that at least 90 major surgical cases should be documented.
These procedures include, but are not limited to:
extirpative surgery for malignant and benign tumors, supraomohyoid,
functional, radical and selective radical neck dissections, major soft and hard
tissue reconstruction, as well as free, local and regional flap procedures.
1. Excision of malignant tumors.
2. Major soft tissue excision for benign or malignant tumors, e.g.
hemiglossectomy, floor of mouth excision, parotidectomy,
submandibular gland incision.
3. Jaw excision for benign and malignant disease, e.g. marginal or
segmental mandibulectomy, partial maxillectomy.
(60 total cases for category 1, 2 and 3)
4. Neck dissection which must include radical and limited (e.g.
supraomohyoid) neck dissection.
(20 cases for category 4)

6-2.1 The overall surgical experience must be broad and must include
experience in primary and secondary reconstruction.
Reconstructive techniques must include soft and hard tissue
replacement. Reconstruction should be performed by the fellow.
If some reconstructive techniques are undertaken by a consulting
service e.g., microvascular service, the fellow must be involved in
the surgery and gain knowledge of these techniques.

6-2.2 There must be close liaison between a radiation oncology
department or a radiation oncology office and a depart ment of
medical oncology or medical oncologist. The fellow must be
trained in the role of radiation therapy and chemotherapy in the
treatment and management of malignant tumors of the
maxillofacial region.

Interesting links. Thanks for posting them. I am glad to see post-residency fellowships for OMFS. I think that is the only way an OMFS should be doing plastics. Sorry if some of you don't agree.

BTW I didn't mean to suggest that only ENT's take care on H&N patients. Just that of the fellowships listed on the website I provided were only available to ENT, GS and Plastics. Sorry if I mislead anyone. You are correct about the low fill rate of H&N fellowships. This wasn't always the case because H&N and Facial Plastics used to be one big fellowship and split in the late 80's. SInc ethat time H&N surgery reimbursement has went down and therefore less interest in H&N fellowships unfortunately.

Thanks again for the links.
 
ajmacgregor said:
I absolutely agree - only fellowship trained OMFS should be doing cosmetic procedures.

Now, getting back to the third molar question - IF plastic/ENT residents spent part of their training learning how to do denotalveolar surgery, and if fellowships were available for them to do dentoalveolar surgery and preprosthetic surgery, I think it would be fine for these guys to take out teeth and put in dental implants.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can't ask how OMFS would feel if plastics started pulling thirds, because there's no plausible mechanism in place that would enable them to do so (unless they were trained as an OMFS first, and then retrained as a plastic surgeon). However, there is an education infrastructure in place for OMFS to be trained in cosmetic procedures, with the requirements outline in my previous post.

We should all try to play nice - I'm not sure that anyone here has an "attitude", I think people just tend to get overly sensitive about these topic areas.

The bottom line is that plastics and orthopods have learned to share the hand (and neurosurgery seems to be coming to the party as well), orthopods and neurosurgeons share the spine, and OMFS, ENT, and plastics have done a good job sharing facial trauma. There's room for everyone.

I agree with you as well.

As for thirds, ENT or plastics, just like OMFS, could encroach on any field if given the time and effort. For the most part, neither ENT's or plastics want to do third's but imagine if they did. They would certainly find a way to set up fellowships for this. Just like OMFS did for plastics and just like ENT did for facial plastics. Where there is a will there is a way.

But I agree that in the current state this is not plausible.

Residency starts soon and my first rotation in ENT!! Yeah H&N looks wide open right now. Still not sure if that's where I'll end up but it looks possible to go to some top notch places to train since even Hopkins sometimes goes unfilled.
 
As far as I am concerned, if 3rd molars and dentoalveolar surgery were included in the scope of ENT or plastics (and I dont think they are), and they are able to do the procedures up to the standard of care, then they should be allowed to do it. Facial esthetic surgery is clearly included in the scope of OMFS. So as long as a particular Oral Surgeon is knowledgable in the procedures and can preform them to the standard of care, then there is no reason they should not be able to do those procedures.
 
ajmacgregor said:
On a side note - it seems that the plastics/ENT residents I've interacted with always seem to denigrate the removal of third molars/implant surgery, maintaining that "it can't be that hard - you're just taking out a tooth." Let me tell you, as a general dentist, third molar surgery is MUCH MORE DIFFICULT that it appears. I actually take it as a compliment when the other surgical residents bust on thirds, because it means that OMFS guys have made it look really easy.

I spent a month on OMFS and those guys did tons of thirds. I got to do 4 sets of thirds myself during that month. Great experience. SOME third molars are tough, but we had a quite a few that were less than 30 minutes in and out of the room for all 4 thirds. BTW Mine took 2.5 hours for all four. 😱

And it is a very lucrative procedure!!
 
Pikevillemedstudent said:
I agree with you as well.

As for thirds, ENT or plastics, just like OMFS, could encroach on any field if given the time and effort. For the most part, neither ENT's or plastics want to do third's but imagine if they did. They would certainly find a way to set up fellowships for this. Just like OMFS did for plastics and just like ENT did for facial plastics. Where there is a will there is a way.

Very true. But you need to remember that the first OMFS cosmetic fellowships arose because an OMFS who was also a board-certified Plastic Surgeon (Dr. Posnick). Same thing with the head and neck fellowships (Dr. Dierks).

The only way that ENTs/Plastics guys could become trained in dentoalveolar/implant surgery would be if a) they were already oral surgeons prior to becoming ENTs/Plastic Surgeons, b) oral surgeons started fellowships for ENTs/Plastic surgeons to learn these procedures, or c) ENTs/Plastic Surgeons who were trained by oral surgeons to take out thirds/place implants started their own fellowships.

I think you'll agree with me when I say that all three of these options have a very low likelihood of ever seeing the light of day. Also, third molar surgery is not always going to be the cash-cow that it is right now. I think we'll see some major changes in dentoalveolar surgery in the next 10 - 20 years.

My personal opinion is that, if plastics/ENTs wanted to do these procedures, they would have to have dental degress. Just like that, I don't think any single-degree OMFS (trained in the last decade, because there are some bada$$ single-degree guys out there who trained 20 -30 years ago, before 6-year programs were so prevalent) should be doing head and neck or cosmetics. I'm not saying that these guys aren't trained to do these procedures, but having an MD and completing 1-2 years of general surgery assures that you have met a minimum standard of competency to medically manage surgical patients.

Of course, this is just an opinion - feel free to disagree.
 
ajmacgregor said:
Very true. But you need to remember that the first OMFS cosmetic fellowships arose because an OMFS who was also a board-certified Plastic Surgeon (Dr. Posnick). Same thing with the head and neck fellowships (Dr. Dierks).

The only way that ENTs/Plastics guys could become trained in dentoalveolar/implant surgery would be if a) they were already oral surgeons prior to becoming ENTs/Plastic Surgeons, b) oral surgeons started fellowships for ENTs/Plastic surgeons to learn these procedures, or c) ENTs/Plastic Surgeons who were trained by oral surgeons to take out thirds/place implants started their own fellowships.

I think you'll agree with me when I say that all three of these options have a very low likelihood of ever seeing the light of day. Also, third molar surgery is not always going to be the cash-cow that it is right now. I think we'll see some major changes in dentoalveolar surgery in the next 10 - 20 years.

My personal opinion is that, if plastics/ENTs wanted to do these procedures, they would have to have dental degress. Just like that, I don't think any single-degree OMFS (trained in the last decade, because there are some bada$$ single-degree guys out there who trained 20 -30 years ago, before 6-year programs were so prevalent) should be doing head and neck or cosmetics. I'm not saying that these guys aren't trained to do these procedures, but having an MD and completing 1-2 years of general surgery assures that you have met a minimum standard of competency to medically manage surgical patients.

Of course, this is just an opinion - feel free to disagree.

I agree with most of what you say except the dental degree part. I think if plastics or ENT did fellowships in dentoalveolar surgery, that would be enough.

Besides, I was just trying to illustrate a point that if another field was trying to encroach on one of your most lucrative procedures, you would react in a similar fashion as plastics is currently to OMFS. Is it justified? No. But if you guys think the powers that be in OMFS would just let plastics encroach on OMFS, you got another thing comin.
 
Pikevillemedstudent said:
What's up with the attitude?
That wasn't attitude, ask anybody who regularly spends time on this board. 😉 It was a simple observation.

First off, trauma can be a very lucrative field, esp. if the patient has car insurance and many do since it is a law that you must have it in KY. So I don't feel sorry for the OMFS guy here pulling big $$$ and working less than most ENT's. This place isn't Level I BTW.

Listen, I have great respect for OMFS. I actually convinced the OMFS guys here to start doing submandibular gland surgery. So don't think I am territorial.

As a general ENT, I would never do anything but the most routine Rhinoplasty if even that. And I think that unless an OMFS did a plastics fellowship or VERY rigorous plastics training in residency, I don't think they should do it either. From the above post, it is obvious that OMFS residency training in facial cosmetic procedures is variable and definitely not standardized (implants count!). You could say the same for ENT as well. Some residencies have alot, some have very little. This is why they started Facial Plastic fellowships, to standardized the training. OMFS should do the same.

Bottomline: I don't think either(ENT or OMFS) should do plastic surgery without the training. I don't think anybody should do any surgery without proper training.

I hate these silly arguments that really boil down to money. OMFS wants what plastics already has solely because it is lucrative and therefore plastics has started this smear campaign against OMFS/dentists to discredit them and protect their pot. None of this is right, but I ask you to honestly answer this question.
Agreed, all.

What would OMFS do if plastics started doing third molars? How would the field react? Please be honest.
I'm not an OMS, so I can't speak for anybody, but of course they'd go off the hook--and if the PRS guys weren't properly trained, they'd be justified in doing so, just as the PRS guys have every justification in the world, to my mind, to lambast any OMS doing boob lifts. My only point, as I've made above & elsewhere, is that OMS residency ain't just extracting impacted teeth. The name "oral & maxillofacial surgery" doesn't include any qualifiers about the *kind* of surgery, so if an OMS has the appropriate residency or fellowship training & gets a hankering to do facial cosmetics, I don't think anyone on Earth can mount a rational argument that they shouldn't.
 
Pikevillemedstudent said:
I agree with most of what you say except the dental degree part. I think if plastics or ENT did fellowships in dentoalveolar surgery, that would be enough.

Besides, I was just trying to illustrate a point that if another field was trying to encroach on one of your most lucrative procedures, you would react in a similar fashion as plastics is currently to OMFS. Is it justified? No. But if you guys think the powers that be in OMFS would just let plastics encroach on OMFS, you got another thing comin.

Perhaps you're right for dentoalveolar surgery, but I think anyone placing dental implants should have a dental degree. You need to understand the requirements of your referring dentist as far as restoration goes, and you cannot do that unless you've restored teeth yourself.

And you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in asserting that OMFS would go ballistic if other specialties started encroaching on dentoalveolar surgery - heck, one need only look at the professional climate between periodontists and oral surgeons wrt implant surgery for confirmation.
 
dude, i know a slew of women that if they want a face lift done will not go to a family practice doctor-- they usually ask other women in their demographic that had the procedure done and they appreciate the work

also, this is the trend. even with drug companies there is something called direct to consumer advertising (DTC) where the general public is becoming more knowledgeable. in this case, i think anyone is capable of finding a plastic surgeon that suits their need-- it's synonymous to finding the right tattoo parlor to get your tattoo done at

brycethefatty said:
My dad (a general practice MD) refers people all the time to a plastic surgeon that come in and ask for a good doctor. Looks like you're just another b1tch who likes to pull facts out of his butt.
there's a difference between giving advice and giving referrals
a referral is what you're dad would give you after i'd be through handling your sorry a$$
*e-slaps brycethefatty
you've been

152244_l.JPG


(from the beginning)

Pikevillemedstudent said:
Besides, I was just trying to illustrate a point that if another field was trying to encroach on one of your most lucrative procedures, you would react in a similar fashion as plastics is currently to OMFS. Is it justified? No. But if you guys think the powers that be in OMFS would just let plastics encroach on OMFS, you got another thing comin.
you don't have to be an omfs to take out third molars
in fact, it's a waste of time to do a six year program to take out third molars
any dentist is capable of taking out third molars
what is your point?

Pikevillemedstudent said:
I think (fellowship) is the only way an OMFS should be doing plastics. Sorry if some of you don't agree.
it depends what omfs program you go to
i.e. for instance at UCLA, i've been told your opinion is 99.9% valid (b/c their six year omfs program focuses on other things)
 
AUG2UAG said:
you don't have to be an omfs to take out third molars
in fact, it's a waste of time to do a six year program to take out third molars
any dentist is capable of taking out third molars
what is your point?

it depends what omfs program you go to
i.e. for instance at UCLA, i've been told your opinion is 99.9% valid (b/c their six year omfs program focuses on other things)

I do not know a single dentist that does impacted third molars. Maybe my experience is different but third molars make up at least 75% of the OMFS practice here.

My point was clearly stated earlier:
"I was just trying to illustrate a point that if another field was trying to encroach on one of your most lucrative procedures, you would react in a similar fashion as plastics is currently to OMFS. Is it justified? No. But if you guys think the powers that be in OMFS would just let plastics encroach on OMFS, you got another thing comin."

If you don't like my use of third molars, change it to any other lucrative procedure that omfs does. The point is NOT the procedure but the reactions that result.

Also, it is this varibility in residency training that is exactly why only fellowship trained OMFS or ENT should perform plastic surgery.
 
Whether an OMFS guy or gal completes a 4 year residency, or a 6-7 year residency, they are required to meet the same standards in surgical and medical training. Of course there is always a benefit to additional training, but that goes with anything. A competent DOCTOR, no matter what he or she is, or what specialty, will strive to continuously better themselves, will know their skills, strengths, weaknesses and limitations.

Oral and maxillofacial surgeons are dental specialists who treat conditions, defects, injuries, and esthetic aspects of the mouth, teeth, jaws, and face. Their training includes a four-year graduate degree in dentistry and the completion of a minimum four-year hospital surgical residency program.

Oral and maxillofacial surgeons care for patients who experience such conditions as problematic wisdom teeth, facial pain, and misaligned jaws. They treat accident victims suffering facial injuries, offer reconstructive and dental implant surgery, and care for patients with tumors and cysts of the jaws, face, neck and treat functional and esthetic conditions of the maxillofacial areas.

With specialized knowledge in pain control and advanced training in anesthesia, the oral and maxillofacial surgeon is able to provide quality care with maximum patient comfort and safety in the office setting.

Definition of Dentistry
Dentistry is defined as the evaluation, diagnosis, prevention and/or treatment (nonsurgical, surgical or related procedures) of diseases, disorders and/or conditions of the oral cavity, maxillofacial area and/or the adjacent and associated structures and their impact on the human body; provided by a dentist, within the scope of his/her education, training and experience, in accordance with the ethics of the profession and applicable law.


OMFS accrediation- required rotations and training:
Medical: (Internal Medicine ,Cardiology/Pulmonology, Infectious Diseases, Intensive Care/Critical Care,
Surgical: (General Surgery,Vascular Surgery,Neurosurgery,Ear, Nose & Throat (ENT),Plastic Surgery,Oncology/Pathology,Trauma Surgery)
Anethesiology:
-Anesthesia PGY2 Equivalent
-OMFS IS THE ONLY SPECIALTY BESIDES ANESTHESIOLOGY WHICH RECEIVES SUCH A FORMAL LEVEL OF ANESTHESIA TRAINING
-Minimum of 4 months, most 6 months
-Main operating room anesthesia provider during rotations.
-Interdisceplanary: Tumor Boards, Craniofacial Team, Trauma Team, etc.

Fellowships: Either through OMFS programs MD programs, or Private Practice-
-Craniofacial/Cleft Palate
-Microvascular
-Plastic Surgery (either Facial, or FULL BODY)
-Oncology
-Reconstructive
-Trauma

Patient Management:
-Immunocompromised Patients
-Cancer Patients
-Trauma Patients
-Aged Patients
-Pediatric Patients
-Pregnant Patients
-Multiple Medical Problems
-ACLS,PALS, ATLS Certification

Fellowships and Accrediations:
MANY OMFS guys are Fellows of the American College of Surgeons, American Academy of Cosmetic Surgery, and the Head and Neck Society to say the least.

THIS IS ALL FACT, and should be sufficient to settle the point that Oral-Maxillofacial Surgeons are more than quallified to perform the debated issues in Head and Neck Surgery and Reconstruction. If our medical counter-parts don't want to accept this, then its their problem. We just need to be vigilent and prevent future "California-Style Litigations." Chances are they or one of their loved ones may have the unfortunate trauma event and get stuck with a "dentist" to put them back together... Kharma....
 
aphistis said:
Aw, another pre-med who thinks the plural of "personal anecdote" is "data." That's cute.

Also, does anyone else appreciate the irony of this kid bashing OMS residency as useless, when his dad apparently never did any residency? If I had to guess, I'd bet somebody's trying to compensate for something.


Too bad I'm dental, *******. UOP.
 
brycethefatty said:
Too bad I'm dental, *******. UOP.
You'll be dental when you have your first tooth morphology lecture. Till then, have a seat.

brycethefatty said:
By the way, if you want to get personal with my dad (which you are) then we will get personal with you. Your wife looks like a damn troll, you looks like a damn hedgehog, and you're kids are going to look like damn porcupines.

If anyone wants a good laugh, go check out this guy's online journal. What a nerd.

Bryce
"We" who? And thanks for the free advertising.

(If you want to leave any more personal attacks, you'd better get moving. Your account might not be here if you wait.)
 
alidis said:
THIS IS ALL FACT, and should be sufficient to settle the point that Oral-Maxillofacial Surgeons are more than quallified to perform the debated issues in Head and Neck Surgery and Reconstruction. If our medical counter-parts don't want to accept this, then its their problem. We just need to be vigilent and prevent future "California-Style Litigations." Chances are they or one of their loved ones may have the unfortunate trauma event and get stuck with a "dentist" to put them back together... Kharma....

Well the problem is that the issue is plastics(particularly cosmetics) not head and neck surgery and reconstruction. The two are different.

I think your use of an unfortunate event and kharma is very misguided. OMFS plays a great role in facial trauma but they are NOT the only ones in this field. ENT and Plastics cover facial trauma as well. I don't understand how facial trauma has anything to do with this discussion.

It is has been agreed upon by myself and other on this thread that with proper fellowship training in plastics, OMFS would certainly be qualified to do the procedures.
 
Almost anyone who went to medical school would probably be as capable of going to dental school and visa-versa. Its not an issue of whether an ENT or plastics guy can do some oral-surgery- 3rds, dento-alveolar, and implants. Anyone who wants to learn, and put the time in is capable.

There is a catch though... Medical specialists are not permitted to perform dental procedures without a dental license (except in VERY VERY VERY limited circumstances). Besides that, its not necessary the technical difficulty in performing the procedures, its the 4 years of DENTAL MEDICINE/SURGERY training that is necessary to provide the background for performing the dental/oral surgery proecedures. A few lectures in Occlusion, and I believe most MD's would slit their wrists!

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, OMFS (which by the way founded Modern Plastic Surgery), is a specialty specifically trained to treat ALL KINDS OF CONDITIONS IN THE HEAD/NECK/MAXILLOFACIAL REGION. We can do it, and we are permitted to do it because it is a field that is Regulated by DENTISTRY, not MEDICINE.

We as Dentists are trained to treat ALL KINDS OF PATIENTS (including medically compromised, cardiac, pediatric, cancer, etc)... We know when we have to make appropriate referrals to other dental or medical specialists.

Enough with the petty arguments... Lets get back to the more important things, like PROVIDING QUALITY CARE TO OUR PATIENTS, AVOIDING THE ASS-RAPE FROM OUR ATTENDINGS AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST..... bashing PERIODONTISTS! :laugh:
 
I feel we're arguing more on the same side, than on opposite sides, but Its simple... if you can reconstruct someone's shattered and mangled face through a series of surgeries, then you should be able to do controlled incisions, reductions, revisions, etc to provide Facial Aesthetic Surgery as well... especially in conjuntion with Orthognathic Surgery, Cleft/Carniofacial or Distraction Osteogenesis.

Fellowhsip training, is definitely a PLUS and if you have fellowship training, by all means you should be able to use that training. It is not always necessary though. You have to know to pick your battles... be brutally honest and do what you are capable of doing. Keep the patient's interests in mind.

Besides, most OMFS guys don't care to do the "seperate facial plastics" stuff because of the time and risk entailed. Its about knowing your capabilities, having the right patients, and doing the right thing.

I'm tired... good day ladies and gentlemen.
 
Pikevillemedstudent said:
I do not know a single dentist that does impacted third molars. Maybe my experience is different but third molars make up at least 75% of the OMFS practice here.

My point was clearly stated earlier:
"I was just trying to illustrate a point that if another field was trying to encroach on one of your most lucrative procedures, you would react in a similar fashion as plastics is currently to OMFS. Is it justified? No. But if you guys think the powers that be in OMFS would just let plastics encroach on OMFS, you got another thing comin."

If you don't like my use of third molars, change it to any other lucrative procedure that omfs does. The point is NOT the procedure but the reactions that result.

Also, it is this varibility in residency training that is exactly why only fellowship trained OMFS or ENT should perform plastic surgery.
trust me when i tell you that other dentists (general, perio, etc etc) are able to perform third molar extractions
since this procedure is already "encroached" and it doesn't make a difference to the clinician, then why not the same for rhinoplasty or a nip/tuck? gimme a break, anyways the point at hand is that an omfs is superior at knowledge of the face than any plastics or ent person
 
actually i doubt that omfs is superior or inferior to ent or plastics
they're on the same team, i agree with alidis
but it's really a cheap shot what these plastics orgs are doing to smear the scope of omfs
 
<dinesh goes to make a website ; omfsrule.com and puts a big "plastics suck" banner on it>
Oh whoops, that wouldn't be too professional now would it.
 
AUG2UAG said:
anyways the point at hand is that an omfs is superior at knowledge of the face than any plastics or ent person


It is? Speak for yourself. I doubt i know more about the face than almost 99% of practicing ENT's. Now we may know more about the oral cavity and teeth yes, but I definately would'nt say face because guess what, they spend 4 years of their 5 year residency studying the HEAD and NECK just like we do!

Oh, and this is a ******ed thread.
 
I agree with the website. If I or family members were gettign plastic surgery, I would only want a board certified cosmetic surgeon to do it.... not a dentist, not an oral surgeon.
 
AUG2UAG said:
trust me when i tell you that other dentists (general, perio, etc etc) are able to perform third molar extractions
since this procedure is already "encroached" and it doesn't make a difference to the clinician, then why not the same for rhinoplasty or a nip/tuck? gimme a break, anyways the point at hand is that an omfs is superior at knowledge of the face than any plastics or ent person

Please read this again:
"The point is NOT the procedure but the reactions that result."

It's really not that hard to understand.

Also, there is no such thing as a board certified cosmetic surgeon since the ABMS does not recognize it. Here's the site
http://www.cosmeticsurgery.org/Surgeons/education.asp

I have asked about the training of these cosmetic surgeons on the plastics forum but no answer yet.
 
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