Plastics vs. OMFS

[AUG2UAG]

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It is? Speak for yourself. I doubt i know more about the face than almost 99% of practicing ENT's. Now we may know more about the oral cavity and teeth yes, but I definately would'nt say face because guess what, they spend 4 years of their 5 year residency studying the HEAD and NECK just like we do!

Oh, and this is a ******ed thread.

your lackadaisical attitude towards the scope of omfs doesn't affect me

 

[AUG2UAG]

Please read this again:
"The point is NOT the procedure but the reactions that result."

It's really not that hard to understand.

ok, and we're using 3rd molar extractions as an example, right?

and you're telling me how does it feel to have others besides omfs do this procedure, b/c it's their bread n butter procedure, right?

and i'm telling you others are doing it

i totally understand your point my brother
there are sooo many 3rd molar extractions that are needed
as well as sooo many nose jobs, face lifts, etc are needed--
just exactly as you pointed out "The point is NOT the procedure"

and all i'm saying is that some omfs'ers that are interested in cosmetic & reconstruction work, with the title MD, should not be downplayed b/c they have an additional two years of work on the face during dental school and that's that, in addition to their five to seven year residency that teaches them oral and maxillofacial surgery

 

[toofache32]

I agree with the website. If I or family members were gettign plastic surgery, I would only want a board certified cosmetic surgeon to do it.... not a dentist, not an oral surgeon.

You agree based on what? Based on your perception of what board certified "cosmetic surgeons" do? Or based on your perception of what "dentists" do? Your post makes me suspect you have little knowledge of either one.

 

[ackbar]

You agree based on what? Based on your perception of what board certified "cosmetic surgeons" do? Or based on your perception of what "dentists" do? Your post makes me suspect you have little knowledge of either one.

If I were getting cosmetic surgery, I would want to go to a cosmetic surgeon, who only does it and has had a huge volume of cosmetic procedures under his/her belt. I would not go to a dentist, even if he/she is an oral surgeon, for these procedures because it is not his specialty, even if it's within the reportoire of procedures that he might be able to perform.

My father and half of my family are dentists, pretty darn good ones at that, but I still wouldn't go to any of them for cosmetic surgery.

 

[ISU_Steve]

I was at one of the local hospitals today and I asked the chief of plastics and reconstructive surgery here (he's a family friend of mine) who he would want putting his or his wife's face back together or doing even "cosmetic" procedures, a PRS (MD) or OMS. His response and I quote, "If it is anything between the cranial vault floor and the larynx, I'd call -----------, he's an oral surgeon who specializes in reconstructive surgery at -------------. If it's not the face or skull, then I want ------------- (one of the plastics guys here)."

He asked why I asked and I told him about this thread to which he replied (quoting again) "Any MD who is feeling threatened by the OM surgeons is insecure and needs to put the ruler away. This isn't a dick measuring contest. Likewise, any OM surgeon who is doing breast surgery needs to remember what his specialty is."

 

[toofache32]

It is has been agreed upon by myself and other on this thread that with proper fellowship training in plastics, OMFS would certainly be qualified to do the procedures.

I don't understand what a fellowship has to do with this issue. If you've done the required procedures in residency, you should be able to perform them...period. If not, then a fellowship is a good idea. This is true for any procedures...cosmetics, orthognathics, clefts, etc. This should also be true for OMFS/ENT and whoever else.

The people who claim "only fellowship-trained OMFS's should do cosmetic procedures" are ignoring the cosmetic procedures already done in routine OMFS residency. I agree that the amount is variable, but this is surprisingly true for general plastics residencies as well.

Pikevillemedstudent, I am guessing you rotated with Louisville's OMFS department. While they have some highly-respected faculty in the AO/ASIF world, Brian & George have no interest in cosmetics. That program is definately a "bread-n-butter" program with a pretty narrow scope. If you're at Lexington then the same is true but to a lesser extent.

 

[toofache32]

Token Disclaimer: I have no interest in cosmetic surgery.

I agree this thread is ******ed, but...

If I were getting cosmetic surgery, I would want to go to a cosmetic surgeon, who only does it and has had a huge volume of cosmetic procedures under his/her belt.

This description fits many contemporary OMFS surgeons, which makes me suspect you don't know the scope of training of OMFS.

I would not go to a dentist, even if he/she is an oral surgeon, for these procedures because it is not his specialty, even if it's within the reportoire of procedures that he might be able to perform.

Cosmetic surgery is not the sole domain of any specialty, including general PRS, although they have done a good job convincing the general public otherwise. General plastic surgeons do a broad scope of procedures and cosmetics is only a very small component of their training. The same is true for OMFS so they are equally as competent given the same case load.

My father and half of my family are dentists, pretty darn good ones at that, but I still wouldn't go to any of them for cosmetic surgery.

I'm not sure you understand the difference in training between a general dentist and an OMFS (regardless of dual/single degree). I wouldn't want a general dentist cutting my face either, but the surgical training of an OMFS is the same as any other surgeon.

Token Disclaimer: I have no interest in cosmetic surgery.

 

[lnn2]

"Any MD who is feeling threatened by the OM surgeons is insecure and needs to put the ruler away. This isn't a dick measuring contest. Likewise, any OM surgeon who is doing breast surgery needs to remember what his specialty is."

The guy just took the words right out of my mouth 😱 That's what I've been saying all along!
IMHO, it's ridiculous to see an OM surgeon doing breast augmention, liposuction. It's absurd that some plastic MDs claiming OM surgeon just a "dentist" with no "medical training".

This isn't a dick measuring contest."

well, sometimes that's all the surgeons have to go by, besides their egos! 😀

P.S. I agree that this thread is ******ed! but I responded anyway because I have nothing better to do!

 

[ISU_Steve]

well, sometimes that's all the surgeons have to go by, besides their egos! 😀

P.S. I agree that this thread is ******ed! but I responded anyway because I have nothing better to do!

I agree, but most surgeons I know that have been around a few years tend to be a lot more mellow (if you can call it that) than their younger counterparts. I think it's that surgeons (both oral, PRS and otherwise) are consumed, in the fear that, somewhere, someone might be faster, smarter (Note: This one does not apply to orthopedic surgeons who tend to be strong as oxen and nearly as smart ), or better than they are. It's very similar to what George Carlin described as the "Bigger Dick Foreign Policy Theory"- the idea that someone, somewhere has a bigger dick (another all consuming insecurity issue) which brings about the idea of "What?! They have bigger dicks than us?! BOMB THEM!". The surgeon equivalent (since most surgeons don't have a private air force to bomb people with) is "What?! They might do a better job than us!? That means they must have bigger dicks than us! Time to wage an assinine PR campaign!"

 

[lnn2]

It's very similar to what George Carlin described as the "Bigger Dick Foreign Policy Theory"

Now, THAT's funny! It puts a whole new meaning to Foreign Policy

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

I don't understand what a fellowship has to do with this issue. If you've done the required procedures in residency, you should be able to perform them...period. If not, then a fellowship is a good idea. This is true for any procedures...cosmetics, orthognathics, clefts, etc. This should also be true for OMFS/ENT and whoever else.

The people who claim "only fellowship-trained OMFS's should do cosmetic procedures" are ignoring the cosmetic procedures already done in routine OMFS residency. I agree that the amount is variable, but this is surprisingly true for general plastics residencies as well.

Pikevillemedstudent, I am guessing you rotated with Louisville's OMFS department. While they have some highly-respected faculty in the AO/ASIF world, Brian & George have no interest in cosmetics. That program is definately a "bread-n-butter" program with a pretty narrow scope. If you're at Lexington then the same is true but to a lesser extent.

My reasoning is that there are no standards for cosmetic procedures in OMFS residencies, so to generealize that all OMFS should be allowed/able/willing to perform cosmetics is kinda scary since not all have enough experience. It's confusing for patients, to say the least, as they don't usually know where their doc did his residency or if that program has alot of plastics experience. That's all I am saying. I would never go to a general OMFS/ENT for plastic surgery. I would not know that he is truly qualified without the fellowship training. The more training the bettter IMO. If you don't think so as well, I seriously question your motives. I really don't see where the problem is. I think the same for ENT, my specialty.

I also have no interest in cosmetics as well.

 

[davingoldratio]

I don't see why OMFS are doing face lifts in the first place. If you had it in your mind that you wanted to do plastic surgery, why not go to med school, then do the plastics residency so you would be able to build up a more stable referral base. If I was a general practitioner, I would refer to an MD that went the traditional route before I ever sent the patient to someone who went to dental school.

The second thing that p1sses me off is that kids get on here and say, "Does this so-and-so OMFS program teach plastic surgery?" etc. Why the heck would you do plastics if you were an OMFS? Why not just got to med school and do it the right way? The real answer to that question is that they either couldn't get into med school, or they changed their mind on what they wanted to do during their OMFS residency.

Ah maybe you need a little history lesson. About 50 years ago before the plastic surgery craze there were these people called soldiers that often times got injured in the MAXILLO FAXIAL REGION. The United States government wanted a full time facial surgeon on staff at all bases accoss the world. They hence funded the first oral and maxillofacial residents. For your information most of the original facial plastics techniques were discovered, perfected however you want to say it......It was the oral and maxillofacial surgeon that first did face lifts. P.S. I turned down medical school to become and oral and maxillofacial surgeon through dental school. WHY? DMD, MD, OMFS that is 9 letters if you can count. How many do you have?

 

[OzDDS]

More interesting links...

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/plasticsurgery/Program/UMaryland.html

http://www.umm.edu/doctors/alexander_e_pazoki.html

http://www.umm.edu/doctors/john_f_caccamese, jr..html

http://www.plasticsurgery.wustl.edu/Teaching/History.asp

 

[shiftyeyes]

I turned down medical school to become and oral and maxillofacial surgeon through dental school. WHY? DMD, MD, OMFS that is 9 letters if you can count. How many do you have?

This is, without a doubt, the silliest reason I've ever heard for someone to want to become an OMFS. Try writing this on your PASS application - see how many interviews you get.

 

[toofache32]

WHY? DMD, MD, OMFS that is 9 letters if you can count. How many do you have?

I bet I can pee farther than you...

 

[ItsGavinC]

I agree with the website. If I or family members were gettign plastic surgery, I would only want a board certified cosmetic surgeon to do it.... not a dentist, not an oral surgeon.

It reminds me of a Dr. 90210 that my Tivo recorded recently (it's an old episode but I must have missed it the first time around). A young girl had been to a surgeon multiple times due to a poor breast augmentation, and was finally deciding to go to one of the Dr. 90210 doctors to see if he could fix the prior surgeries.

One of the first things the young girl says on camera is that the doctor who did the original operation and subsequently multiple attempts to fix the original operation, "was a dentist and not qualified to do the work".

I remember thinking, "oh great, that's good publicity".

 

[dinesh]

wtf is a dentist doing with Breast Augmentation?
Unless he's a DDS turned MD/OMFS turned Plastics?:S

 

[toofache32]

My reasoning is that there are no standards for cosmetic procedures in OMFS residencies, so to generealize that all OMFS should be allowed/able/willing to perform cosmetics is kinda scary since not all have enough experience.

I agree that more training is generally better. But there are programs that do a ton of facial cosmetics and even more procedures than many general plastics programs. For example, the PRS guys at my institution average about 20-30 rhinoplasties, the ENTs average about 40-50, and OMFS averages about 80-100, according to resident case logs. This is understandable in that the PRS guys here only spend 3 months on their "cosmetic" rotation which has to cover the whole body.

I agree that more training is better, but I don't think everyone should be required to do a fellowship if they've already done more of the procedures in question than the "gold-standard" PRS guys.

Also, most orthognathic surgery is cosmetic in nature these days, not functional. Rhinoplasty is commonly done in conjunction with orthognathics because some people will look worse without it.

 

[toofache32]

wtf is a dentist doing with Breast Augmentation?
Unless he's a DDS turned MD/OMFS turned Plastics?:S

There isn't a general dentist in the world doing breast augs. These people say "dentist" referring to OMFS, dual-degree or not to ruffle feathers.

 

[north2southOMFS]

There isn't a general dentist in the world doing breast augs. These people say "dentist" referring to OMFS, dual-degree or not to ruffle feathers.

I can do Breast Augs after my residency? There are dual degree OMFS's out there that are trained and doing boob jobs? I gotta go there and do a rotation.

 

[north2southOMFS]

I bet I can pee farther than you...

Maybe but my johnson is way bigger than yours.

 

[toofache32]

Maybe but my johnson is way bigger than yours.

Not according to OMFSRES's mom.

 

[brycethefatty]

1

 

[AUG2UAG]

good luck at uop

 

[tx oms]

boobs

Two of my very favorite things

 

[tx oms]

Aw, another pre-med who thinks the plural of "personal anecdote" is "data." That's cute.

Also, does anyone else appreciate the irony of this kid bashing OMS residency as useless, when his dad apparently never did any residency? If I had to guess, I'd bet somebody's trying to compensate for something.

Golden. Awesome post, Bill. I think the guy's dad probably did a residency; still, I like the plural of "personal anecdote" is "data" quote.

 

[tx oms]

By the way, if you want to get personal with my dad (which you are) then we will get personal with you. Your wife looks like a damn troll, you looks like a damn hedgehog, and you're kids are going to look like damn porcupines.

If anyone wants a good laugh, go check out this guy's online journal. What a nerd.

Bryce

I got personal with your mom. It took a few beer, but I did it. That's all.

What a great thread. I had to take a hit of meth just to stay awake through it all. Look, I don't give a flying rat's ass what anyone thinks. Period. I'll do what I want, when I want, where I want. (How do you like my narcissism? I just took the psych shelf exam afterall).