Please deposit wisdom here

[Brooke3]

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I’ve posted a slightly similar thread a couple of weeks ago, but now I have new developments and have done a lot of thinking. Current state: 3.3 Chemical Eng BS from U of Washington (born and raised in WA), 3.95/4.0 BioEng MS from Berkeley/UCSF (GPAs are relative to each school). Still need to take Bio w/ labs and OChem w/ labs, will take the MCAT early next summer. I’m currently living in San Francisco with my significant other and will finish my master’s in three weeks- I got my CA driver’s license and voter’s registration in Aug of 2010. I feel a need to prove myself with my remaining classes since I have a low UGPA and I’m assuming most adcoms know grad school GPAs don’t matter all that much because the classes can be so different (cough cough easy). Finances are an issue for me because of grad school and living in SF, so I need to take $ into account when choosing where to take my prereqs. I’ll be 26 in August, and am considered an independent from my parents. Now I must choose where to take my prereqs and I think my best two options are:

A. Move back home to Seattle and live rent-free with mom, attend Bellevue college (formerly community college)- might have to pay out of state tuition ($9k) because my CA license slip up (couldn’t afford UW out of state tuition). This option will guarantee me WA residency when applying to UWSOM in 2012, and UW states that it doesn’t mind applicants taking prereqs at community colleges. Bellevue College is a 4 year school now, but only for a few programs and is primarily a 2 year school. This could very well pose a problem when applying to med schools other than UW, so I view this as putting all my eggs in the same UW basket.

B. Stay with significant other in the bay area and attend Berkeley extension. This option will be more expensive in terms of living expenses and might cause some trouble since I have an income of 0 right now. However, Berkeley Extension seems to be viewed well and is considered a four year school since it’s part of Berkeley (or so I’m told). This option has some perks: I could keep volunteering at SF General where I get to do hands on stuff and Berkeley Extension is on semesters, so I could start almost right away and have more time to spend on the MCAT in the summer without classes to worry about. However, I could not keep my WA residency this way, but could apply to be a CA resident. Being a CA resident doesn’t seem to be of much help because the CA schools are so competitive, but there are a lot of schools to apply to in CA.

If you made it this far- I’m impressed! What would you do in this situation? I have to decide in the next week or so in order to register and it seems like it comes down to should I be a WA or CA resident.

 

[PTWOB02]

Now I must choose where to take my prereqs and I think my best two options are:

A. Move back home to Seattle and live rent-free with mom, attend Bellevue college (formerly community college).

B. Stay with significant other in the bay area and attend Berkeley Extension School.

What would you do in this situation?

If I were you, I would stay in CA to finish my pre reqs there. Unless I'm mistaken, there are 9 med schools in CA but only 2 in WA (one of them is DO), so maximize your chances in CA.

 

[Brooke3]

If I were you, I would stay in CA to finish my pre reqs there. Unless I'm mistaken, there are 9 med schools in CA but only 2 in WA (one of them is DO), so maximize your chances in CA.

Okay- I was worried about having UW as my only choice. I just wonder what my chances are as an IS at the CA schools vs an IS at UW. I think being a CA resident is great if you're a strong applicant, but I worry I'm not all that competitive (as MD).

 

[Nasrudin]

I’ve posted a slightly similar thread a couple of weeks ago, but now I have new developments and have done a lot of thinking. Current state: 3.3 Chemical Eng BS from U of Washington (born and raised in WA), 3.95/4.0 BioEng MS from Berkeley/UCSF (GPAs are relative to each school). Still need to take Bio w/ labs and OChem w/ labs, will take the MCAT early next summer. I’m currently living in San Francisco with my significant other and will finish my master’s in three weeks- I got my CA driver’s license and voter’s registration in Aug of 2010. I feel a need to prove myself with my remaining classes since I have a low UGPA and I’m assuming most adcoms know grad school GPAs don’t matter all that much because the classes can be so different (cough cough easy). Finances are an issue for me because of grad school and living in SF, so I need to take $ into account when choosing where to take my prereqs. I’ll be 26 in August, and am considered an independent from my parents. Now I must choose where to take my prereqs and I think my best two options are:

A. Move back home to Seattle and live rent-free with mom, attend Bellevue college (formerly community college)- might have to pay out of state tuition ($9k) because my CA license slip up (couldn’t afford UW out of state tuition). This option will guarantee me WA residency when applying to UWSOM in 2012, and UW states that it doesn’t mind applicants taking prereqs at community colleges. Bellevue College is a 4 year school now, but only for a few programs and is primarily a 2 year school. This could very well pose a problem when applying to med schools other than UW, so I view this as putting all my eggs in the same UW basket.

B. Stay with significant other in the bay area and attend Berkeley extension. This option will be more expensive in terms of living expenses and might cause some trouble since I have an income of 0 right now. However, Berkeley Extension seems to be viewed well and is considered a four year school since it’s part of Berkeley (or so I’m told). This option has some perks: I could keep volunteering at SF General where I get to do hands on stuff and Berkeley Extension is on semesters, so I could start almost right away and have more time to spend on the MCAT in the summer without classes to worry about. However, I could not keep my WA residency this way, but could apply to be a CA resident. Being a CA resident doesn’t seem to be of much help because the CA schools are so competitive, but there are a lot of schools to apply to in CA.

If you made it this far- I’m impressed! What would you do in this situation? I have to decide in the next week or so in order to register and it seems like it comes down to should I be a WA or CA resident.

Give my regards to the Golden Gate. And if that's you spread eage over the horizon you're too talented for med school.

To start with. It seems like you have more options as a californian than as a washingtonian. You can always maintain that you have strong ties to the home state during a secondary for UW or something like that. You should even contact them to try to finesse your app through, pleading your instate case despite the formal california status. Rules are not as set in stone as you might think for admissions. Sometimes you talk to the right person and they wave a magic wand for you.

But that's for the app season. What you're asking is more comprehensive. and involves mush more decision science.

Unfortunately, wisdom is not depositable. And there's not enough we could know about you to help you too much. This is individual decision science crunch time. It matters nada, the wisdom of others. For example, how significant is the other, and do they want to live with your mom. Just to reference the most obvious of unanswerable things for strangers.

The academics are more answerable. Your position is not bad. Not great either. Your grad school credentials' mileage will vary. But you did great at really well-respected insitutions. In really hard science. 3.3 is at the bottom range. Right where I was at. Here's some wisdom. You have some interesting assets. We both had similar cum gpa's. Now. Were I to tell you to fight drunken madman style, like me. You would sell short your own unique assets. Your applicaation Kung Fu must be wrapped around your unique assets.

In your case, you could be overly brainy smart engineery tech girl. The type, as a secret agent, I would want on my team, feeding me code cracking intel, so I could penetrate a foreign embassy undetected. Who's lower gpa is the result of lack of interest in the mundane. Until you decided to use your powers for good. Then you focus your powers. Obliterate the MCAT, and wait for some insightful adcom at a medium tier school to get talent at a cut rate.

But that's just what I imagine. Might not suit you at all. You should never listen to anyone when honing your own narative. Or overall strategy. In fact, I heard so much in one direction when in your position, that I intuitively knew, if I walked in the opposite direction, with enough cajones, I would be successful.

Finally. Check the accreditation of the Berkeley Extension. I heard there was problems with their credits. Take the classes where it makes the most sense. And cents. Keep it cheap. Unfortunately California state schools are flooded. And taking classes al a cart has posed difficulties for many.

Best of luck finding your way. It is both risky. And rewarding. If you've got the guts to see it through.

 

[Brooke3]

Thanks for all the insight! You're right, both options have risks. The significant other is very open minded to my choice and would remain in SF either way because of his job at Facebook. We've done distance in the past and I know we would be okay either way.

It seems like I could have a shot at UCI and UCD as an IS applicant and at UW as an IS, but not either as OOS. I didn't realize that adcoms have some leeway on state ties, but I'm hesitate to rely on that.

 

[Nasrudin]

Thanks for all the insight! You're right, both options have risks. The significant other is very open minded to my choice and would remain in SF either way because of his job at Facebook. We've done distance in the past and I know we would be okay either way.

It seems like I could have a shot at UCI and UCD as an IS applicant and at UW as an IS, but not either as OOS. I didn't realize that adcoms have some leeway on state ties, but I'm hesitate to rely on that.

No don't misunderstand. You're right. State ties are usually handled mechanistically by front office people. I meant it generally. For instance, some adcom's will if asked give you a credit for biochem for an organic semester and so on. If you ask.

More generally. At my medical school. Which I am very happy with. I was stagnating somewhere in their secondary pool. Until I emailed the right person and said, look....I sitting on an accpetance that I would give up in a heart beat if you all took me. Just give me chance to meet and discuss my interest in your school.

And bang. They chose to interview me. So like that. To the seeker goes the grail.

Many things that appear to be rules are more like stop signs. On a country road.

And additionally some adcoms will deliberately seek ties to their area even outside of residency status.

So then. With you SO on board. You should definitely look at falling back to a well defended high ground for getting your course work. Negotiations should proceed internally. In discussion with people at your intitutions of interest.

Those criteria--between you and them and their residency requirements and their accredidtation--are much more important now.

 

[DrMidlife]

If I were you, I would stay in CA to finish my pre reqs there. Unless I'm mistaken, there are 9 med schools in CA but only 2 in WA (one of them is DO), so maximize your chances in CA.

Counting schools doesn't give you useful math or any details. Such as that there are close to 5000 CA applicants vs. about 800 WA applicants. Such as that UW is the state school for 5 states (27% of the US land mass!) and that a number of UW seats are reserved for Alaska/Idaho/Montana/Wyoming. Such as that California's state budget is in the toilet and they are so broke they had to recycle an old governor (rimshot!). And such as that the odds of an interview are much better in WA. With a low GPA and an interesting life, interview odds are very, very important.

Also of interest is that if you move to Seattle and you don't get into UW, the DO school is a couple hours away (not a good winter drive, but lovely otherwise). By contrast if you move to San Francisco and you don't get into Stanford or UCSF, then Davis or Touro are not too far, but Los Angeles is a full day's drive and San Diego is a road trip. So if you're picking a state with the intent of staying in town X, WA has a better story.

Okay- I was worried about having UW as my only choice. I just wonder what my chances are as an IS at the CA schools vs an IS at UW. I think being a CA resident is great if you're a strong applicant, but I worry I'm not all that competitive (as MD).

OK so let's go to the numbers.

UW takes 216 students
- from the 2010 MSAR: 1075 instate applicants
- from AAMC: 1143 WWAMI applicants (784 from WA)

The 5 UCs alone take 673 students
- from the 2010 MSAR: 3159 to 5383 instate applicants per school
- from AAMC: 4972 CA applicants

The 8 CA schools combined take 1084 students
- 2010 MSAR: 2019 to 5383 instate apps per school
- from AAMC: as above

For UW, there are seats set aside for WAMI, about 20 apiece. There was a threat to increase the number of OOS acceptances because WA wouldn't allow higher tuition, but that was overturned. So 784 WA apps for 122 seats, 15% chance.

For California, there are a couple of new campuses in progress, vs. a ridiculous budget deficit. I predict no change in the number of UC seats in the next couple of years - there's no money. If you go by the MSAR count of seats for UCs, and the AAMC count of instate applicants, that's 4972 apps for 673 instate seats, 13% chance.

Counting CA private schools, the total goes to 856 apps for 4972 seats, and we're up to 17%. Edit: that's 856 seats for 4972 apps.

Hey but 17% is better than 15%!! And seriously 13% vs. 15% is not that riveting a difference!! Yes indeed, so let's go to the interview numbers, which are what could greatly benefit Brooke3 with a lower GPA.

Per the 2010 MSAR, UW interviews 604 instaters out of 1075, about 56%, round that down to 50% or even 40% because they probably interview everybody in Idaho except Larry Craig.

For CA schools, instate apps vs instate interviews:
USC 349 3406 10%
Loma Linda 193 2019 10%
Stanford 157 2293 7%
UC Davis 572 3565 16%
UC Irvine 494 3716 13%
UCLA 645 5383 12%
UCSD 580 3440 17%
UCSF 320 3159 10%

And finally, without getting into details that I don't think are all that accurate anyway, CA schools have higher GPA/MCAT averages than UW, except for Loma Linda and Davis which are about the same.

As for wisdom, trust your own (after you collect lots of info).

Best of luck to you.

 

[Nasrudin]

Counting schools doesn't give you useful math or any details. Such as that there are close to 5000 CA applicants vs. about 800 WA applicants. Such as that UW is the state school for 5 states (27% of the US land mass!) and that a number of UW seats are reserved for Alaska/Idaho/Montana/Wyoming. Such as that California's state budget is in the toilet and they are so broke they had to recycle an old governor (rimshot!). And such as that the odds of an interview are much better in WA. With a low GPA and an interesting life, interview odds are very, very important.

Also of interest is that if you move to Seattle and you don't get into UW, the DO school is a couple hours away (not a good winter drive, but lovely otherwise). By contrast if you move to San Francisco and you don't get into Stanford or UCSF, then Davis or Touro are not too far, but Los Angeles is a full day's drive and San Diego is a road trip. So if you're picking a state with the intent of staying in town X, WA has a better story.

OK so let's go to the numbers.

UW takes 216 students
- from the 2010 MSAR: 1075 instate applicants
- from AAMC: 1143 WWAMI applicants (784 from WA)

The 5 UCs alone take 673 students
- from the 2010 MSAR: 3159 to 5383 instate applicants per school
- from AAMC: 4972 CA applicants

The 8 CA schools combined take 1084 students
- 2010 MSAR: 2019 to 5383 instate apps per school
- from AAMC: as above

For UW, there are seats set aside for WAMI, about 20 apiece. There was a threat to increase the number of OOS acceptances because WA wouldn't allow higher tuition, but that was overturned. So 784 WA apps for 122 seats, 15% chance.

For California, there are a couple of new campuses in progress, vs. a ridiculous budget deficit. I predict no change in the number of UC seats in the next couple of years - there's no money. If you go by the MSAR count of seats for UCs, and the AAMC count of instate applicants, that's 4972 apps for 673 instate seats, 13% chance.

Counting CA private schools, the total goes to 856 apps for 4972 seats, and we're up to 17%.

Hey but 17% is better than 15%!! And seriously 13% vs. 15% is not that riveting a difference!! Yes indeed, so let's go to the interview numbers, which are what could greatly benefit Brooke3 with a lower GPA.

Per the 2010 MSAR, UW interviews 604 instaters out of 1075, about 56%, round that down to 50% or even 40% because they probably interview everybody in Idaho except Larry Craig.

For CA schools, instate apps vs instate interviews:
USC 349 3406 10%
Loma Linda 193 2019 10%
Stanford 157 2293 7%
UC Davis 572 3565 16%
UC Irvine 494 3716 13%
UCLA 645 5383 12%
UCSD 580 3440 17%
UCSF 320 3159 10%

And finally, without getting into details that I don't think are all that accurate anyway, CA schools have higher GPA/MCAT averages than UW, except for Loma Linda and Davis which are about the same.

As for wisdom, trust your own (after you collect lots of info).

Best of luck to you.

Thank you ma'am. For not letting the bad uncle take the scout troop to a strip club.

I really could use your help here. So, glad you stopped in. Your mind for detail is extraordinary. I'm sure it'll benefit your career.

Now, so that I can leave this discussion feeling smart: what is the comparative math between multiple crappy odds against one good odds. You add the crappy ones as they're separate events right? so 1/10 + 1/10 + 1/10 ..... will be less or greater than 5/10 right? Or am I f'ing it up.

Anyways, good to see you around. Hope you're doing well. And we really should just post as a team. Like those two old muppet guys in the balcony. Bagging on the show for laughs.

 

[Nasrudin]

I was failing to sleep. When I came to the conclusion. That the OP should just listent to DrML. And that. Maybe, I've just never had a logical progression of thought.

I tired Q. But this advising thing is just too stressful. What the F@ck do I do I know. I only understand feeling and metaphor. I start in one direction. Then my mind blows down some other street that I alone may be curious about. This is horrible advice giving game.

Good luck premeds. I'll try to be encouraging. But advising. I just suck too bad.

 

[DrMidlife]

Seriously, I just want somebody to get my Larry Craig reference. That, and I'm here in Seattle marinating in the abundant local passive aggression, and since the sun was out last week my memory was wiped out, so I can't remember how much I hated UW, and how the winter's dark and drizzle make you want to strap on some explosives, and I am thus not enthusiastically warning Brooke3 to stay where there's a BART and where they don't let people keep driving on elevated roadways that will fail spectacularly in an earthquake, and where there's InNOut. Double double with grilled onions holy crap what am I doing here oh yeah they put Haldol in the Starbucks that's why.

Stats handed me my fanny, but you can't add or multiply jack with CA interview odds. It's not like the coin flip or the sock drawer. It's about 50-or-so being bigger than 15-or-so. At a school that interviews 50% of apps, a low GPA app isn't wiped out by the most competitive apps. At a school that interviews 15%, I'm sorry did you say something? I can't hear you over the 4.0s.

That said, I think that the lower uGPA candidates who do well in med school admissions look a lot like Brooke3. uGPA isn't that bad at 3.3. Killer grad performance at a school and in a field you can't just automatically scoff at. Maturity & good chewy nontrad experiences. With a killer MCAT like a 37 or so, she could really do well, maybe even in CA. Don't you think?

 

[Nasrudin]

Seriously, I just want somebody to get my Larry Craig reference. That, and I'm here in Seattle marinating in the abundant local passive aggression, and since the sun was out last week my memory was wiped out, so I can't remember how much I hated UW, and how the winter's dark and drizzle make you want to strap on some explosives, and I am thus not enthusiastically warning Brooke3 to stay where there's a BART and where they don't let people keep driving on elevated roadways that will fail spectacularly in an earthquake, and where there's InNOut. Double double with grilled onions holy crap what am I doing here oh yeah they put Haldol in the Starbucks that's why.

Stats handed me my fanny, but you can't add or multiply jack with CA interview odds. It's not like the coin flip or the sock drawer. It's about 50-or-so being bigger than 15-or-so. At a school that interviews 50% of apps, a low GPA app isn't wiped out by the most competitive apps. At a school that interviews 15%, I'm sorry did you say something? I can't hear you over the 4.0s.

That said, I think that the lower uGPA candidates who do well in med school admissions look a lot like Brooke3. uGPA isn't that bad at 3.3. Killer grad performance at a school and in a field you can't just automatically scoff at. Maturity & good chewy nontrad experiences. With a killer MCAT like a 37 or so, she could really do well, maybe even in CA. Don't you think?

A total sleep fail is much better in the company of my old buddy.

Larry Craig! Yes, thanks for the wiki. It's just hard out there for a Gay Republican. It's like. No you cannot be for big business and man sex. Cause what'll we tell our religious pawns. That kind of is on their No! list.

Noooooo mansex! On-ly vaginas. Sex is for babies. Yaaaayyy God! Maybe I should offer my services as a slogan writer.

Yeah. I kind of just took the ol' grunt and scratch. hmmm. 7 med schools. 1 med school. 7. 1. hmmmm. Then you got all numerical on me. And it scared the crap out of me. Here I am just talking casually AND confidently mind you. Straight out of my butt. And I thought to myself. Holy **** this person is taking me seriously. WTF am I doing?!!!!

But I agree. She can really do this. Especially if she nails the MCAT. Maybe in California. Which sent me packing. You're right. She is the type of low gpa candidate they just might snatch. I don't anything about UW. Or anything else about anything. I can't even roll a decent cigarette. So I'm not sure what I think I'm doing giving advice.

Q quilted me into trying to be a better sdn citizen. So I went straight to talking out of my butt. See. Where's the logic?

If anybody ever needs cyclical nonsense. Or encouraging babble. I'll be in my office. Mixing up some haldol mochachinos for my friend. Pretending to know what I'm doing.

 

[QofQuimica]

Nas, you didn't tire me, and guilting you wasn't my intent. Think of that thread as a pilot project for the staff, which is essentially what it was. That, and I'm too tired to come up with a more creative July poll. Tell you what. You can make the August poll, and we'll call it even. 😉

As for the OP, I've never been to WA, and San Fran is too cold and crazy for my Florida blood. I vote for moving to San Diego. It's the one place in CA that I liked enough to want to stay there longer than a few days. 😛

 

[DrMidlife]

Q quilted me into trying to be a better sdn citizen. So I went straight to talking out of my butt. See. Where's the logic?

Quilted. When Q guilts you into something. That totally works.

 

[Nasrudin]

Quilted. When Q guilts you into something. That totally works.

😀. I was playing Q, I'm sorry. The truth is you set a high bar for good citizenship. And your thread simply had the effect, intentioned or not, of making me realize I offered nothing in return to the forum which helps me find out all kinds of stuff. And that's not cool.

Trouble is. The capacity to advise is not something I possess. DrMidlife can do it. And well. I would rather entice her into funny banter with me. But that again is self-derving. So I'll just try pure encouragement. Without anything technical. And less diversionary self-amusement.

OP. Best of luck!!!

 

[Brooke3]

Thanks so much to everyone who posted! I ended up coming to Seattle and updating my license to WA, so it looks like I'm going down the UW or bust path! I'm just trying to argue my residency to get in state tuition for my prereqs now. I really appreciate all the advice- you guys/gals rock!

 

[wavewheel]

I think this has all been great advice so far, but the one thing I want to call into question is the idea that Brooke is going to be less than competitive because of a 3.3 undergrad GPA. There is a difference between a 3.3 as a history major at Podunk Local U and a 3.3 in Chemical Engineering (a no-joke major if I've ever heard of one) at a major research university. I bet this is especially true if you're applying to medical school at that very same major research university.

If you look at the University of Washington admissions FAQ, they have a chart showing the number of applicants versus the number of people who got in with various GPAs and MCAT scores. Among people with 3.25-3.49 GPAs who scored 30-33 on the MCAT, 90 applied and 22 got in. That's about a 25% acceptance rate. Compare this to people with a >3.75 GPA and a 36-39 on the MCAT. With these stats, 76 people applied and 22 got in, about a 29% acceptance rate.

The point is, I don't think you're going to be "damaged goods" at UW because of your undergrad GPA, especially given your near-perfect performance in a master's program at a top university. But for that matter, I don't think you'd be in too much trouble at California schools, either.

 

[curt656]

Seriously, I just want somebody to get my Larry Craig reference.

Tap tap, show hard...we got your back Dr. ML!