enjoy living

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If I tell PD the truth that I will rank his program the second program of my list. What do you think? I don't wanna lie. For sure I tell my top program that your program is number 1. Just curious about second choice, third choice. I don't want to use genera word like rank highly.
 

gutonc

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Then don't say anything. Easy peasy.
 
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enjoy living

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I think it's cliche. Everybody will tell PD that I will rank your program highly. So, I don't know what I'm supposed to do.
 

gutonc

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physicsnerd42

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Why tell any of your programs anything about where you'll be ranking them? They're not allowed to ask and you're not obliged to tell them.
 

SouthernSurgeon

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If I tell PD the truth that I will rank his program the second program of my list. What do you think? I don't wanna lie. For sure I tell my top program that your program is number 1. Just curious about second choice, third choice. I don't want to use genera word like rank highly.
The level of neurosis in this forum is approaching that of the pre-allo forum.

Just. Say. Nothing.

There have been like literally a dozen threads this year alone on how little these statements of intent matter to residency programs. Even the supposed magical phone call from a chair carries very little weight. Why on earth would you think that telling a program they are your second choice would in any way strengthen your application?

The program interviewed you. They will rank you based on that interview. They aren't going to drop you off the list because you failed to send them a love letter.
 
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MadHopsMD

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If I tell PD the truth that I will rank his program the second program of my list. What do you think? I don't wanna lie. For sure I tell my top program that your program is number 1. Just curious about second choice, third choice. I don't want to use genera word like rank highly.
think if your significant other told you "hey you are my second choice to marry". how does that make you feel?
 

thefritz

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I agree that it is common sense not to advertise that a program is not your favorite. It's like telling an attractive girl she is a 9/10, she won't care one bit about the 90% she is better than and instead be terribly offended that you think there's someone prettier than her. Using the same silly analogy I just made up, it's probably not a good idea (besides being sleazy and dishonest) to tell programs at the bottom of your list they are your number 1 because if you tell an ugly girl she is a 10, she most likely isn't going to believe you and think you are trying to play her.

I have another question: Why are there so many threads about telling your #1 they are number 1? Why is this important? Does it really affect your chance of matching? Why would a program rank a candidate higher if they think they are going to be ranked higher? We are told to rank places in the order in which we would truly prefer to go. Saying that you can change your spot on the rank list by disclosing your number 1 implies that programs don't follow this same rule and don't necessarily rank candidates in the order they would prefer them, but rather factor in the likelihood of the candidate ranking them highly when making their list. Is this true, and is there any advantage for programs not to rank applicants in their true preference?
 
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I agree that it is common sense not to advertise that a program is not your favorite. It's like telling an attractive girl she is a 9/10, she won't care one bit about the 90% she is better than and instead be terribly offended that you think there's someone prettier than her. Using the same silly analogy I just made up, it's probably not a good idea (besides being sleazy and dishonest) to tell programs at the bottom of your list they are your number 1 because if you tell an ugly girl she is a 10, she most likely isn't going to believe you and think you are trying to play her.

I have another question: Why are there so many threads about telling your #1 they are number 1? Why is this important? Does it really affect your chance of matching? Why would a program rank a candidate higher if they think they are going to be ranked higher? We are told to rank places in the order in which we would truly prefer to go. Saying that you can change your spot on the rank list by disclosing your number 1 implies that programs don't follow this same rule and don't necessarily rank candidates in the order they would prefer them, but rather factor in the likelihood of the candidate ranking them highly when making their list. Is this true, and is there any advantage for programs not to rank applicants in their true preference?
This is my guess but I've heard that one of the measures of how "competitive" a program is is how far down their rank list they have to go to fill all of their positions each year. Therefore, I can see them ranking an applicant who really wants to go there higher than a stronger applicant who doesn't, in order to not go down the rank list as far. Just my guess
 

thefritz

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This is my guess but I've heard that one of the measures of how "competitive" a program is is how far down their rank list they have to go to fill all of their positions each year. Therefore, I can see them ranking an applicant who really wants to go there higher than a stronger applicant who doesn't, in order to not go down the rank list as far. Just my guess
But how far down their list they go isn't reported anywhere. Plus if an undesirable program fills their ranks with the worst applicants by putting them at the top of the list, it doesn't make them more competitive. Maybe a PD can fill us in.
 

Iamnotme

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The level of neurosis in this forum is approaching that of the pre-allo forum.

Just. Say. Nothing.

There have been like literally a dozen threads this year alone on how little these statements of intent matter to residency programs. Even the supposed magical phone call from a chair carries very little weight. Why on earth would you think that telling a program they are your second choice would in any way strengthen your application?

The program interviewed you. They will rank you based on that interview. They aren't going to drop you off the list because you failed to send them a love letter.
I disagree with this. I think programs do care for these messages. They may say otherwise, but they care. In several of my interviews, I have been told-if you like us, send us an email and let us know. One program specifically even told me how it can move you up the rank list.
 

mvenus929

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I disagree with this. I think programs do care for these messages. They may say otherwise, but they care. In several of my interviews, I have been told-if you like us, send us an email and let us know. One program specifically even told me how it can move you up the rank list.
OTOH, I've had two programs who flat out told me that they would not communicate with me after the interview, and they do not expect me to communicate with them. I've also talked to attendings at my own program who say that you're basically already ranked when you arrive for your interview, so I hardly think a note is going to change that much if your interview did not.
 
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gutonc

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I disagree with this. I think programs do care for these messages. They may say otherwise, but they care. In several of my interviews, I have been told-if you like us, send us an email and let us know. One program specifically even told me how it can move you up the rank list.
Is that the kind of program you want to be a part of? Where a mash note moves you up the list? What other sorts of arbitrary and capricious decisions do they make based on who says they like them more?
 
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Iamnotme

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Is that the kind of program you want to be a part of? Where a mash note moves you up the list? What other sorts of arbitrary and capricious do they make based on who says they like them more?
I think that the people invited to a program have made the "cut off" on an academic level. It's a lot about fit many times. If I was a PD and I liked a number of applicants, if I know that certain applicants want to come to my institution and they told me, of course I would rank them highly. Of course I'm not saying they will move up from last to first, but they would def. move up. Why wouldn't it? I would want residents that WANT to be at my institution, not people who matched there because they had no choice. Unhappy residents make for a bad environment.
 

SouthernSurgeon

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If I was a PD and I liked a number of applicants, if I know that certain applicants want to come to my institution and they told me, of course I would rank them highly. Of course I'm not saying they will move up from last to first, but they would def. move up. Why wouldn't it? I would want residents that WANT to be at my institution, not people who matched there because they had no choice. Unhappy residents make for a bad environment.
Because after about one year as a PD, you'd realize that the predictive value of an applicant telling you they are "ranking you highly" approaches zero, and you get letters like this from a ton of people. So unless you want to reshuffle your rank list daily based on a meaningless token gesture from applicants, you start ignoring these types of things.
 
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gutonc

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I think that the people invited to a program have made the "cut off" on an academic level. It's a lot about fit many times. If I was a PD and I liked a number of applicants, if I know that certain applicants want to come to my institution and they told me, of course I would rank them highly. Of course I'm not saying they will move up from last to first, but they would def. move up. Why wouldn't it? I would want residents that WANT to be at my institution, not people who matched there because they had no choice. Unhappy residents make for a bad environment.
But since virtually everyone lies about this, that's bad decision making.
 
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Iamnotme

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But since virtually everyone lies about this, that's bad decision making.
Not everyone lies about this. Some people do sure, but there are honest people out there. I can respect other people's opinions on this, just my thoughts are that it does make a difference. Also why would programs say so if they are worthless?

So in your opinion, PDs rank based on their liking of applicants, without care for who the applicants like? Just curious. Also, I am a firm believer that the buck stops with the PD as far as making the ultimate decision regards to an applicant. I don't believe that the "committee" really makes a conjoined decision. What are your thoughts on that?
 

Iamnotme

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Because after about one year as a PD, you'd realize that the predictive value of an applicant telling you they are "ranking you highly" approaches zero, and you get letters like this from a ton of people. So unless you want to reshuffle your rank list daily based on a meaningless token gesture from applicants, you start ignoring these types of things.
Ok. When I matched, I only told one program they were my #1, and I happened to match there. I don't believe I told programs I would rank them "highly" and I did not bother emailing programs that I would still rank, but rank them low.

So if you were a PD, you would just rank applicants based on your preference without care for what applicants said?
 

thefritz

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Ok. When I matched, I only told one program they were my #1, and I happened to match there. I don't believe I told programs I would rank them "highly" and I did not bother emailing programs that I would still rank, but rank them low.

So if you were a PD, you would just rank applicants based on your preference without care for what applicants said?
Going back to my question, why does it even matter to programs if you rank them #1 or #20? Don't they create their rank lists the same way we do: in order of who they would rather have?
 
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SouthernSurgeon

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So if you were a PD, you would just rank applicants based on your preference without care for what applicants said?
For the vast, vast majority of cases, yeah that is what I would do (and is what my program does).

An exception I can think of would be if a PD of one of our other residencies called about a couples match and indicated they were going to be ranking their candidate very highly. In that case I'd give my applicant a bump (how much depending on whether we liked that applicant and how reciprocal/close a relationship we have with that PD)
 
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Iamnotme

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Going back to my question, why does it even matter to programs if you rank them #1 or #20? Don't they create their rank lists the same way we do: in order of who they would rather have?
In my opinion, which clearly others disagree with, telling them a program you really want to go there *may* have some influence on how they rank you. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. :) Others think it does not matter at all if you tell a program where you are ranking them and that they will rank you however they want.
 

gutonc

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In my opinion, which clearly others disagree with, telling them a program you really want to go there *may* have some influence on how they rank you. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. :) Others think it does not matter at all if you tell a program where you are ranking them and that they will rank you however they want.
You are of course entitled to your opinion. But FWIW, aPD, IMPD and mcl (a cards fellowship PC) have all said on multiple occasions that they've all heard "I'll be ranking you #1" from ranked to match applicants who wind up elsewhere so many times that, if even if they don't think they're being lied to, they just don't care.
 
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