Please tell me my brother is wrong?

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Caltech bro

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Hello all,
When asking this question it's not to start a who better contest as I see some post on here are, this is just me checkin my brothers story. See I am not a med student and never will be I'm just bustin my ass with what I have to be a resp. therapist and it's taking all I have mentally.

Anyhow I look up to you folks (pre-med/med students) anyhow as you can see by the name my brother is a aerospace engineer major at cal-tech. I tell him how I hate math , he justs giggles and says try his math its harder then any math you would need for any med school anywhere... I always thought M.D. D.O. was the hardest degree one could have? He thinks he could handle med school, minus clinicals cause he says I dont want to be a doctor so I wouldn't care to see blood,guts but tells me he could do your guys book work? I am very proud of my brother being a aerospace engineer aka rocket science but man Med school I hear is very tough!!!!!
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Caltech bro said:
Hello all,
When asking this question it's not to start a who better contest as I see some post on here are, this is just me checkin my brothers story. See I am not a med student and never will be I'm just bustin my ass with what I have to be a resp. therapist and it's taking all I have mentally.

Anyhow I look up to you folks (pre-med/med students) anyhow as you can see by the name my brother is a aerospace engineer major at cal-tech. I tell him how I hate math , he justs giggles and says try his math its harder then any math you would need for any med school anywhere... I always thought M.D. D.O. was the hardest degree one could have? He thinks he could handle med school, minus clinicals cause he says I dont want to be a doctor so I wouldn't care to see blood,guts but tells me he could do your guys book work? I am very proud of my brother being a aerospace engineer aka rocket science but man Med school I hear is very tough!!!!!
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giving birth to a 10 pound baby>med school > everything else else
 
Two things:

The math you need for med school is not that exhaustive. So just about any physics or engineering math is harder than the math you need for med school.

Also, I am told that kidney stones are at least as nasty as pregnancy.
 
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Medical school and the premedical curriculum is not INSANELY hard (your brother could most likely handle it if he had the passion). You could do it if you wanted to (and I mean really wanted to spend the time doing it). As far as math, your brother is right. The most intense math that most premeds have is trig based physics which is a joke. There, however, is a great deal of memorization (anatomy) and critical thinking (physiology?) involved in much of the coursework. I personally think that the hardest part is going to be the clinical stuff. Dealing with tough non-compliant patients separates the men from the boys.

Take that with a grain of salt...this comes from a student that studies all the time when he is not doing research or volunteering.
 
Loon said:
Two things:

The math you need for med school is not that exhaustive. So just about any physics or engineering math is harder than the math you need for med school.

Also, I am told that kidney stones are at least as nasty as pregnancy.
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Former first lady Barbara Bush was hospitalized with a perforated ulcer that she said was more painful than childbirth.

To the original poster, the math you'll take as an engineer is beyond the scope of any math you'll need in medicine, unless you go into biomedical engineering. That doesn't mean any engineer will be able to succeed in medical school or medicine in general. Don't forget that being a doctor involves working with patients, and engineers aren't known for their people skills...
 
I think I agree with your brother. Most students from top schools like Caltech could probably do well at med school if they wanted to. I know because I go to a similar school and the pre-meds here probably tend to be lower in terms of scientific ability.
 
The math required to be an engineer is much much harder than what is required to get into med school. That being said, i doubt many of the kids i know who are in engineering programs would make good doctors at alll. The more I think about it, most of the pre-med kids (that I know personally) who get all As would probably make terrible doctors (no people skills, no common sense... all they do is read and re-read their textbook 7 days a week which anyone could do if they had absolutely no life).
 
cbrons said:
The math required to be an engineer is much much harder than what is required to get into med school. That being said, i doubt many of the kids i know who are in engineering programs would make good doctors at alll. The more I think about it, most of the pre-med kids (that I know personally) who get all As would probably make terrible doctors (no people skills, no common sense... all they do is read and re-read their textbook 7 days a week which anyone could do if they had absolutely no life).
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the way I look at it...they might not be good doctors in the traditional sense of a compassionate, caring, altruistic physician healer. They might be very good as an academic researching MD though. We need those too!
 
JackInTheBox said:
Former first lady Barbara Bush was hospitalized with a perforated ulcer that she said was more painful than childbirth.

To the original poster, the math you'll take as an engineer is beyond the scope of any math you'll need in medicine, unless you go into biomedical engineering. That doesn't mean any engineer will be able to succeed in medical school or medicine in general. Don't forget that being a doctor involves working with patients, and engineers aren't known for their people skills...
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Correction

Perforated Ulcers >Kidney Stones>Giving Birth>Med School>everything else
 
The average Cal Tech student is much more intelligent than the average medical student. But there is more to being a good physician than pure brain power. You have to be smart to succeed in med school but there are certifiable geniuses walking around the Cal Tech campus. Sorry MIT.
 
The majority of med schools don't even require calculus for admissions. From what I've been told; what makes medical school hard is the volume of material you must master.

Engineers as a group perform very well on the MCAT. I don't know how you go about figuring out who's smarter, but engineers and physicians both tend to be very intelligent. Your brother could probably handle med school if he wanted to do it.
 
Caltech bro said:
Anyhow I look up to you folks (pre-med/med students) anyhow as you can see by the name my brother is a aerospace engineer major at cal-tech. I tell him how I hate math , he justs giggles and says try his math its harder then any math you would need for any med school anywhere... I always thought M.D. D.O. was the hardest degree one could have? He thinks he could handle med school, minus clinicals cause he says I dont want to be a doctor so I wouldn't care to see blood,guts but tells me he could do your guys book work? I am very proud of my brother being a aerospace engineer aka rocket science but man Med school I hear is very tough!!!!!
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I'll just paraphrase an MD I know: Doctors certainly like to think they have the have the highest education of any profession.
 
TooMuchResearch said:
I'll just paraphrase an MD I know: Doctors certainly like to think they have the have the highest education of any profession.
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I don't know if this is necessarily true (Post-docs do just as much training, hell even some PhDs depending on the success of their research) but it is one of the most important professions.
 
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No math really, except basic algebra (plugging in formulas and stuff). Sometimes they'll use some calc to explain something, but you don't really have to understand it.

There is not much material in medical school that is difficult conceptually. What makes it very difficult is the shear volume of material you are responsible to know about in detail. So even some of the geniuses in my class who went to MIT/Harvard/Princeton/etc. can have a hard time with the curriculum. The don't have a problem with comprehension, but rather getting through it all and remembering every little detail.
 
Obviously the math in med school isn't nearly as difficult as the math found in engineering, however, that's not what makes med school hard. As a math minor, I've always found that math is easier than bio because you just don't need to know as much; all you need to do is remember about 10 techniques for any given exam and be able to recognize which technique you need on any given problem. The techniques may be a bit hard to get down, but once you have them down you should be good. For bio, on the other hand, you need to know a TON of details; any one particular detail isn't hard to remember, but when you have to probably know a hundred+ details for any given exam, to me that's harder than remembering 10 techniques.

So really, math and bio are both really hard for different reasons. Most people would probably agree that engineering is harder just because less people have the innate ability to work math than people who have the innate ability to remember a bunch of details, but it's really just a personal difference.
 
WOW, I am suprised to hear the answers, my brother is home for thanksgiving so I let him read the posts.. He says he isnt shocked by the answers.. I figured it would be a bashin..he says people at the top of there game ie: med school, aerospace engineering,harvard law, don't need to bash or brag they know they have made it to the top of the pile...As far as medical school he says he could do the book work ,but does not have a passion to be a doctor therefore would suffer in clinicals..he thinks to make it thru any type of top level academics you have to be committed to it....His favorite quote is "THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN SUCCESS IS COMMITMENT " And has one of the post says CAL TECH students that have certifiable genius's on campus, he says according the princeton review MIT AND CT do have the highest I.Q. overall but says who cares, he knows classmates that can bust out quantam physics but can't change a car battery....Common sense out weighs any academic achievement"


Anyhow I appreciate the responses and good luck to you all in med school
Oh and one quick thing he wanted me to add one thing about math and med school if you think physicans don't achieve real high math, come meet some of the physican scientist at cal-tech and clinical site JPL and get back to him...lol
 
Well I can say after working with mud-phud's from the caltech JPL, you're right they are "a different beast", but it is a self fulfilling prophesy, i.e. the type of doctor who would get a PhD and then chose to work in a research environment would probably also be the doctor who was an engineering ugrad major and also was really good at math.
 
Math is definitely not very emphasized in medicine. It takes me a good 4 minutes with pen and paper to calculate an anion gap.
 
Caltech bro said:
Hello all,
When asking this question it's not to start a who better contest as I see some post on here are, this is just me checkin my brothers story. See I am not a med student and never will be I'm just bustin my ass with what I have to be a resp. therapist and it's taking all I have mentally.

Anyhow I look up to you folks (pre-med/med students) anyhow as you can see by the name my brother is a aerospace engineer major at cal-tech. I tell him how I hate math , he justs giggles and says try his math its harder then any math you would need for any med school anywhere... I always thought M.D. D.O. was the hardest degree one could have? He thinks he could handle med school, minus clinicals cause he says I dont want to be a doctor so I wouldn't care to see blood,guts but tells me he could do your guys book work? I am very proud of my brother being a aerospace engineer aka rocket science but man Med school I hear is very tough!!!!!
Click to expand...

Man, it's amazing how many people are just desparate to know/think that they are working harder than anybody else. Why can't anybody just settle down and do whatever they find most interesting/ fulfilling and leave whatever they don't like to other people.
 
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Difficulty is relative.

I think it has everything to do with how much you enjoy the work. For example, my GF is in grad school for legal studies. While most people tell me how difficult my work is, I really do not think so because I really enjoy it. On the other hand, I know I would have a tough time with the legal studies. However, some may argue that it should be easier.
 
I dunno, if I have to make a judgement on the issue, I'd say alot has to do with what type of difficulty it is. I mean, engineering majors probably have to work harder than biology majors, or non-engineering major pre-meds, but pre-meds that actually make it to med school work hard longer than engineers, and also, get paid very little, long after engineers are making good money.
 
We all know that MIT kicks caltech's ass!:rolleyes:
 
I don't know...the engineers at my school hold med school on a higher pedestal than their own future careers.

since I actually know what a bio major entailed, though, I'd have to disagree. I think bio and, of course, med school takes more study time but engineering takes more intelligence and critical thinking. not everyone can do engineering while anyone putting the time into bio can do it.

for me personally, I wish I had majored in something engineering. I didn't know the differences between the majors when I started college so I just did bio. for me, engineering would have been more fulfilling because math has always been my strongest area. I tried to take the hardest math route in pre-med as possible by taking the engineering physics and whatnot. engineering physics really isn't hard, either, since it only uses calc 1. I came into college ready to start off taking calc 3. I did that but then never took any more math after that. the higher math classes get into proofs, which didn't interest me. I think engineering would have been very interesting, though. I would definitely feel more accomplished with an engineering major than a bio one. I do love bio, though. if I could do it all over, I probably would have majored in some engineering and minored in bio.
 
rocketbooster said:
I don't know...the engineers at my school hold med school on a higher pedestal than their own future careers.

since I actually know what a bio major entailed, though, I'd have to disagree. I think bio and, of course, med school takes more study time but engineering takes more intelligence and critical thinking. not everyone can do engineering while anyone putting the time into bio can do it.

for me personally, I wish I had majored in something engineering. I didn't know the differences between the majors when I started college so I just did bio. for me, engineering would have been more fulfilling because math has always been my strongest area. I tried to take the hardest math route in pre-med as possible by taking the engineering physics and whatnot. engineering physics really isn't hard, either, since it only uses calc 1. I came into college ready to start off taking calc 3. I did that but then never took any more math after that. the higher math classes get into proofs, which didn't interest me. I think engineering would have been very interesting, though. I would definitely feel more accomplished with an engineering major than a bio one. I do love bio, though. if I could do it all over, I probably would have majored in some engineering and minored in bio.
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I think solving mysteries of disease and treatment also take critical thinking, problem solving and intelligence, don't be so quick to say med school is all knowledge based. Textbook case studies only go so far.
 
I can't speak to Medical School or graduate studies, but I'm happy to share my opinion on undergraduate work (as I am with most topics :p).

I'm reluctant to name the premedical curriculum the most difficult or strenuous of undergraduate programs. I would certainly believe it to be up there, but different things are difficult for different people, and these fields may come somewhat easier to some people than would other select fields.

Generally speaking, I think all types of Science, Engineering and Mathematics coursework are considerably difficult. On the other hand, though, upper-level literary criticism or Political Science coursework probably aren't exactly cake. To definitively call one harder than the other is, then, fairly subjective.

In the end, though, I believe that nearly any person of sound mind and solid motivation can achieve success in any discipline they want to go into. The hard part is finding what discipline you want to pursue, and to keep yourself motivated through the coursework. If you think you want to do something, just do it. Getting on track is the most important decision, if you ask me.
 
Nomdeplume said:
On the other hand, though, upper-level literary criticism or Political Science coursework probably aren't exactly cake. To definitively call one harder than the other is, then, fairly subjective.
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You'll never find a person who studied 20+ hours a week in anything related to poli sci and received anything below a B-. You will find about half of a p-chem or quant mech class in that boat however
 
JackInTheBox said:
Former first lady Barbara Bush was hospitalized with a perforated ulcer that she said was more painful than childbirth.

To the original poster, the math you'll take as an engineer is beyond the scope of any math you'll need in medicine, unless you go into biomedical engineering. That doesn't mean any engineer will be able to succeed in medical school or medicine in general. Don't forget that being a doctor involves working with patients, and engineers aren't known for their people skills...
Click to expand...
It must've be even more painful (emotionally) to give birth to two kids with three 21st chromosomes (i.e., Jeb and Dubya).
 
What an incoherent pos post.

It's not about which is harder which is easier. It's different.

I concur that giving birth is harder, but nowadays we have epidurals.

p.s. this need for comparisons is pathetic and ridiculous. When will people stop being insecure and just be happy doing their jobs? It's not about which is harder and which is easier. It's about doing what you love to do and trying your best at it.
 
Undergrad disciplines (imho) in terms of difficulty.

Physics*>Math>Engineering>Chemistry>Bio>Psychology>Environmental Science/Ecology> the rest (liberal arts,business, art)


*Math and Physics are a toss-up when it comes to difficulty level.
 
Caltech bro said:
Hello all,
When asking this question it's not to start a who better contest as I see some post on here are, this is just me checkin my brothers story. See I am not a med student and never will be I'm just bustin my ass with what I have to be a resp. therapist and it's taking all I have mentally.

Anyhow I look up to you folks (pre-med/med students) anyhow as you can see by the name my brother is a aerospace engineer major at cal-tech. I tell him how I hate math , he justs giggles and says try his math its harder then any math you would need for any med school anywhere... I always thought M.D. D.O. was the hardest degree one could have? He thinks he could handle med school, minus clinicals cause he says I dont want to be a doctor so I wouldn't care to see blood,guts but tells me he could do your guys book work? I am very proud of my brother being a aerospace engineer aka rocket science but man Med school I hear is very tough!!!!!
Click to expand...

I can guarantee you that there are harder majors than being a pre-med. I mean I study a night or two before every exam and have managed to get a 3.5. Now I couldn't imagine getting that same GPA with aerospace engineering or chemical engineering with the same effort.

Being a pre-med isn't the hardest major by any stretch but sure there are many area of studies that I would personally find easier. Honestly if I had the motivation to continual study the material I think I could easily get a 3.9+ but I find the information very dry and boring. Its not that I don't like learning but I would rather watch something on the history channel or discovery health.

I think med school will be easier than undergrad because I will only have one thing to focus on...grades. Right now I am overloaded with activities and am still able to pull the last minute study techinque. When I know I have to study every day I don't to figure out when to study.
 
I double majored in engineering and chemistry (chem basically = premed). Engineering nearly killed me and my chances at medical school, chem not so much. For me at least, engineering is harder.

Second point: the difficulty of an engineering degree is drastically higher at better schools. They cram their classes full of equations (Laplace transforms and oscillating plane equations come to mind) that lower tier schools either hardly mention or just flat out skip. Pre-med and medical school, on the other hand, are pretty standardized. Relative to your schools engineering program, this makes premed harder the lower the tier of school you attend.
 
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Many of my undergrad classes (engineering) were harder than my med school classes.

Tough concepts to understand, versus lots of rote memorization.
 
Caltech bro said:
Hello all,
When asking this question it's not to start a who better contest as I see some post on here are, this is just me checkin my brothers story. See I am not a med student and never will be I'm just bustin my ass with what I have to be a resp. therapist and it's taking all I have mentally.

Anyhow I look up to you folks (pre-med/med students) anyhow as you can see by the name my brother is a aerospace engineer major at cal-tech. I tell him how I hate math , he justs giggles and says try his math its harder then any math you would need for any med school anywhere... I always thought M.D. D.O. was the hardest degree one could have? He thinks he could handle med school, minus clinicals cause he says I dont want to be a doctor so I wouldn't care to see blood,guts but tells me he could do your guys book work? I am very proud of my brother being a aerospace engineer aka rocket science but man Med school I hear is very tough!!!!!
Click to expand...

to me, it sounds like your brother is insecure with himself if keeps ranting about how he can handle the work. if he keeps saying he can handle it, why doesnt he do it then, otherwise, he's being annoying and just saying stuff. he should concentrate on his plugging and chugging and endless variables that stand for uncertainties.

lastly, i hate math!
 
link2swim06 said:
I can guarantee you that there are harder majors than being a pre-med. I mean I study a night or two before every exam and have managed to get a 3.5. Now I couldn't imagine getting that same GPA with aerospace engineering or chemical engineering with the same effort.

Being a pre-med isn't the hardest major by any stretch but sure there are many area of studies that I would personally find easier. Honestly if I had the motivation to continual study the material I think I could easily get a 3.9+ but I find the information very dry and boring. Its not that I don't like learning but I would rather watch something on the history channel or discovery health.

I think med school will be easier than undergrad because I will only have one thing to focus on...grades. Right now I am overloaded with activities and am still able to pull the last minute study techinque. When I know I have to study every day I don't to figure out when to study.
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lol..i think youre in for a surprise buddy...if ur having a hard time balancing life and academics now, then its not gonna get easier in med school....youre supposed to be practicing NOW....
 
Medical students aren't the greatest problem solvers. Look at how many of them have trouble with physics and organic chemistry because you can't just stare at a page for 10 hours and memorize it word for word...you have to actually think about what you're doing.
 
FIREitUP said:
It must've be even more painful (emotionally) to give birth to two kids with three 21st chromosomes (i.e., Jeb and Dubya).
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Down Syndrome? Wow. You suck man. You suck.
 
Caltech bro said:
He thinks he could handle med school, minus clinicals ...
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Um, saying he could handle med school minus clinicals is like me saying I could handle his aerospace engineering program, minus the engineering part. He's basically knocking out the hard (but also rewarding and most important) part of med school. So yeah, anyone used to studying science courses could get through the first two years of med school. It just involves spending adequate time. It's not conceptually hard, just hard because of the volume. It's like drinking out of a firehose -- anybody can do it, but not everybody is willing to put in the effort necessary, and those that don't do it right drown. But it's not the important (or hard) part of med school. This is really just the foundation on which your med school education, and then residency training is going to be built. So yeah, I suspect he, like most engineers, could do the first two years of med school if he got in. But then during rotations when the "real" med school education starts, he has to be willing to endure that too, or it's a *****ic statement.
 
To quote a previous post, I don't think it would feel very rewarding to assist a heavy smoker or enormously obese person who wouldn't even follow the advice of cutting down on the 2 packs a day or the 10 McD cheeseburgers.
 
Caltech bro said:
Hello all,
When asking this question it's not to start a who better contest as I see some post on here are, this is just me checkin my brothers story. See I am not a med student and never will be I'm just bustin my ass with what I have to be a resp. therapist and it's taking all I have mentally.

Anyhow I look up to you folks (pre-med/med students) anyhow as you can see by the name my brother is a aerospace engineer major at cal-tech. I tell him how I hate math , he justs giggles and says try his math its harder then any math you would need for any med school anywhere... I always thought M.D. D.O. was the hardest degree one could have? He thinks he could handle med school, minus clinicals cause he says I dont want to be a doctor so I wouldn't care to see blood,guts but tells me he could do your guys book work? I am very proud of my brother being a aerospace engineer aka rocket science but man Med school I hear is very tough!!!!!
Click to expand...

One person's "hard" is another person's "easy". You can't really compare difficulty from one profession/degree to another. History would have been a very difficult subject for me to major in but I sailed through Chemistry with a math minor. I have no doubt that there are plenty of history majors out there that are 20 times smarter that I but science wasn't difficult for me. It had something to do with the fact that I loved Chemistry and math and perhaps didn't find History as interesting. Urinating contests are kind of low yield these days. Everyone is good at something and everyone has difficulty with something else. In the end, you do what you like.
 
Law2Doc said:
Um, saying he could handle med school minus clinicals is like me saying I could handle his aerospace engineering program, minus the engineering part. He's basically knocking out the hard (but also rewarding and most important) part of med school. So yeah, anyone used to studying science courses could get through the first two years of med school. It just involves spending adequate time. It's not conceptually hard, just hard because of the volume. It's like drinking out of a firehose -- anybody can do it, but not everybody is willing to put in the effort necessary, and those that don't do it right drown. But it's not the important (or hard) part of med school. This is really just the foundation on which your med school education, and then residency training is going to be built. So yeah, I suspect he, like most engineers, could do the first two years of med school if he got in. But then during rotations when the "real" med school education starts, he has to be willing to endure that too, or it's a *****ic statement.
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No. every med student I know would disagree. they all tell me the first 2 years, especially the 1st year since you're not used to the workload yet, are the hardest. the clinicals are the best part I would think because you finally get to apply what you learn and interact with patients! they tell me the 4th year of med school (2nd year of clinicals) is the easiest year in med school. you're used to the long hours by the time your clinicals come around, thus the beginning years are considered the hardest ones...or so I hear. I've yet to do it myself.

(note: the hardest year may be the 1st or 2nd depending on the school. at WashU, you don't get real grades till M2. M1 is only P/F. however, at another school, you get grades from day 1 so the competition is at the highest when you first get there.)

in comparison, law students say the 1st year of law school is the hardest because that's the first time in your life that you're hit with that much work. after you start, you don't feel like it's as much work anymore. you can study for 5 hours straight and think you got nothing done because it's routine now. in order to consider yourself having worked extra hard that day, you would have to study 8 hours a day compared to your average 5 hours/day...or again, so I hear.
 
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Crb717 said:
I think solving mysteries of disease and treatment also take critical thinking, problem solving and intelligence, don't be so quick to say med school is all knowledge based. Textbook case studies only go so far.
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well, obviously. I didn't say med school didn't. I just inferred engineering takes more problem solving. I should have just compared that to pre-med and not med school, though, since I have not started med school yet. I would definitely state that the average engineering student has more critical thinking and problem solving abilities than the average pre-med.
 
DrYoda said:
This is a first. :confused:
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it's about being used to the routine is what I'm getting at. Note: I said clinicals, not residency. all physicians like to do when they're all together is complain about the abuse of residency and how the current system is so much easier. :laugh:
 
Caltech bro said:
Hello all,
When asking this question it's not to start a who better contest as I see some post on here are, this is just me checkin my brothers story. See I am not a med student and never will be I'm just bustin my ass with what I have to be a resp. therapist and it's taking all I have mentally.

Anyhow I look up to you folks (pre-med/med students) anyhow as you can see by the name my brother is a aerospace engineer major at cal-tech. I tell him how I hate math , he justs giggles and says try his math its harder then any math you would need for any med school anywhere... I always thought M.D. D.O. was the hardest degree one could have? He thinks he could handle med school, minus clinicals cause he says I dont want to be a doctor so I wouldn't care to see blood,guts but tells me he could do your guys book work? I am very proud of my brother being a aerospace engineer aka rocket science but man Med school I hear is very tough!!!!!
Click to expand...


what is the point of these random threads made by random people who ask 2 questions and never post again?? :confused:
 
rocketbooster said:
No. every med student I know would disagree. they all tell me the first 2 years, especially the 1st year since you're not used to the workload yet, are the hardest. the clinicals are the best part..or again, so I hear.
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Um no. 3rd year is the hardest. You are worked crazy hours, don't have control over your own schedule, and are expected to remember and apply much of what the prior two years taught you; and are at risk of being berated verbally at times. It is also the best year of med school (Those aren't mutually exclusive concepts), though you may not think so as you are being pimped mercilessly after being on the wards for 30 hours straight.
The first two years are actually the easiest, but you don't realize how good you have it until you are further along, and look back.

If every med student you know tells you that the first year is the hardest, then I think you need to meet some new med students.
 
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